>>110415642 I work in a comic book store, and that's simply not true. The anime geeks that come in wearing weird shit and get all fussy when you don't have something no sane physical store would carry are some of the worst people I have to deal with, ahead of Mexican families, but behind movie bandwagoners and people who don't research things they want.
>>110415393 Because Japan's populace has a voracious appetite for comics, leading to enormous volumes of content covering every imaginable demographic, genre, and niche.
American comics are more like anime, in that they are targeted primarily at a small core audience of obsessive geeks with relatively narrow interests.
The Comics Code Authority frequently gets blamed for killing American comics, but I think there'd be a difference in markets even if it had never existed. Written Japanese is notoriously difficult to read, even for native speakers, which I suspect makes it harder for literature to take over print comics' niche.
>>110416778 Fantagraphics is mostly reprints, and First Second publishes stuff that manages to make awesome shit seem super boring. Also, I don't think I've ever seen a book from them with consistent, attractive art.
>>110417242 >paul pope Seriously though, read a biography about Ernest Shackleton. The story of his failed Antarctic expedition was so manly and awesome that your chest hair gets thicker by knowing about it, yet the Shackleton graphic novel will put you to sleep. It's uncanny.
>>110415393 Creators control their works. Single artists. They generally don't last forever. The action is superior because of they are less condensed. The stories are superior because they are less condensed. There are more companies making Bangalore so more chances for good shit,
Since they are so hard to even buy their isn't a market for the niche and few decent ones are made comparatively. Not only that but they frequently just stop in the middle or are super short. (I'm looking at you Fell) I can find dozens of new manga within minutes but their simply isn't that kind of output in the western comics industry.
>>110418572 Not the person you're responding to, and I'm also a huge fan of western comics.
Manga are much more drawn out. They usually have far less panels and dialog on any given page. Action scenes are usually far more detailed and choreographed.
It's not unusual for a action scene in a manga to span over multiple issues, but this almost unheard of in western comics (in both America and Europe). Fight scenes in western comics are normally limited to a few pages at the most. Sometimes they only last a few panels.
If you want to see an extreme example of this, then compare Bleach to a western comics. Some western comics have more plot development in a single page than Bleach has over several issues.
Manga have far more drawn out pacing. I actually prefer this, as it means the creators can go into more detail and explore scenes more extensively. Of course, there are exceptions in both manga and comics that go against the grain. I'm generalizing for the sake of discussion.
>>110419068 >instead of letting the text do the narration mostly its the images that do.
>>110419288 It has a lot to do with writers who are making comics because they were laughed out of other writing professions, so the pack a lot of dialogue in to prove what great writers they are. It also has a lot to do with the infamous Marvel method, where comics were written in an odd, ass backwards way, and as a result tended to read like they were written for complete idiots.
>>110415861 >and people who don't research things they want. This comment epitomizes what is killing the western comics market. God forbid someone walk into a comic book store and browse or make an impulse buy, and good luck finding where to start a series if you have to depend on asshole comic store employees to help.
Contrast to manga - find the volume that says fucking 1 on the cover, go in numerical order until you run out of numbers.
>>110415393 An increasingly diverse and numerous fanbase is trying to get everything they want out of an increasingly stale and limited artistic output, which leads to all kinds of controversy and bullshit. With manga there is enough content diversity that anyone can find at least 5 works that cater to their specific interests within 10 minutes.
>>110420427 Artists are better paid, always have been. From the last year, Skottie Young could probably buy a house with cash in hand, and Michael Turner got a lot of work towards the end of his life to pay for cancer treatment, which ain't fucking cheap.
>>110420375 >Contrast to manga - find the volume that says fucking 1 on the cover, go in numerical order until you run out of numbers.
This is a huge reason comics are fucking dead in the west.
No one can get into capeshit without a fucking infographic from /co/ telling them which of the seven billion issues of Batman are good and which are bad. And good luck finding good standalone comics since they conclude after three issues. Oh, and if a writer/artist is getting lippy? The chief editors just fire them and put someone new in, even if it changes the entire flow of the story. And don't expect many indie comics to get lucky and strike it big when capeshit is suffocating the market.
It's such a fucking mess, and it's only the desperate dollars of neckbeard fans acting as life support. It needs to die, so that something better can blossom from its ugly corpse.
>>110415393 1. The manga culture in Japan is much more accepted than the comic culture in America. People don't auto-judge you for reading manga. 2. The manga industry isn't monopolized by two companies. 3. Manga is released in a magazine bundling different manga and is relatively inexpensive compared to comics. 4. Manga artists have more control over their works, while in America, Marvel and DC own the comics, characters, and your ass.
I fully blame the Big 2 (Marvel and DC) for the reason why American comics are not as popular and as quality as manga is. There are probably other factors, but their tight grip over the comic industry is what I perceive to be the most influential one.
>>110420872 no it's because they watch shows even more childish than /a/ does, like seriously korra, steven universe, even adventure time are all fine but some of the drivel they talk about like fucking monster high school or whatever the fuck it is, it's just embarassing
>>110420872 Only in /a/ have I ever seen /co/ called shit. I've never seen anyone else call /co/ shit among the other boards. Have you ever even been on /co/? It's about the same as /a/, except less popular and less material to talk about, so it sometimes branches off into topics that are half-half /co/ related.
>>110421012 I've been on /co/ once after watching Frozen because all of 4chan was going crazy about it. Never returned. Also, the only time I hear of /co/ it's either about the autistic Frozen general or how shit it is.
>>110420779 >No one can get into capeshit without a fucking infographic from /co/ telling them which of the seven billion issues of Batman are good and which are bad Yeah they can, it's easy if you're not a total retard. Hell, both Marvel and DC put out recommended lists for free. Image reprints almost every #1 they have for a dollar, and Valiant has put out two sampler anthologies for six bucks each, equating to $1.20 an issue. It's called experimenting, people with higher brain functions do it all the time.
>>110421135 >Image reprints almost every #1 they have for a dollar, and Valiant has put out two sampler anthologies for six bucks each, equating to $1.20 an issue The problem is that you'd actually have to walk into the cesspool that is a comic book store to even find one of these, and they're not even marketed to new fans. No one would know about these sampler anthologies unless they were already a dedicated comics reader.
The majority of the Vertigo line-up is superior than mostly anything that has been done in manga, so the argument is void from that alone. The entirety of the comics found in the magazine Heavy Metal (and the french original Metal Hurlant) are better than manga. In fact, Metal Hurlant and other french/belgian bande desinees are the major source of inspiration for japanese manga artists. Then there's the entire Alternative/indie comics scene. People who assume that the comic book is ruled only by DC and Marvel and capeshit are just as delusional as the people who think anime is only about tentacle porn.
Using variety as a trump card is pretty fucking silly. Apparently high school filled with samey stereotypical characters with a fantasy/sci-fi TWEEST is the peak of variety and uniqueness.
>>110421335 Definitely one of the best things the Big 2 has every produced.
>>110421380 But the comic book industry is ruled by DC and Marvel. The smaller companies have such a minimal share of the pie in comparison. Capeshit isn't the only thing you can find, but it's a majority of it.
>>110421385 >the companies put out lists and guides for free >THAT DOESN'T COUNT, THEY JUST WANT YOUR BUSINESS I'm not saying it doesn't count, and I'm sure they have some helpful guides. But even comics fans will admit that some storylines go to absolute shit. It's not like the company selling them is going be like "and don't bother this shit, it was fucking terrible."
>>110417821 I don't like Paul Pope all that well either. I like his inking, but his work doesn't appeal to me aesthetically. I think Westerners like it more, because it appeals to that 'grimdark' shit they love so much.
>>110421380 >Heavy Metal >Franco-Belgian comics >underground "comix"
No kidding. The points is that these are all buried under a mass of superhero junk. Heavy Metal finally went out of business just recently after struggling for the last decade, and indie stuff hardly gets any circulation. And hardly any of the good European stuff makes it over to Murka. You're better off learning French (like I finally wound up doing) or digging around for one of those rare scanalation sites.
>>110421481 >Definitely one of the best things the Big 2 has every produced.
Which is very sad IMO. Kingdom Come was okay at best.
The majority of the western comics market is dominated two large corporations that control a shit ton of IPs where the actual writers and artists are constanly switched and the fact that they then decided to have all their characters and stories all exist in the same world has turned it into a colossal clusterfuck. If you work for these companies you have to stick to this system and in America at least it is very difficult to remain independent as a comic artist. While it is true that capeshit is not the entirety of western comics it does compire such a large proportion of it that that is as far as most people are willing to dig , which in turn leads to an ever increasing amount of the fanbase who only want capeshit.
That said there are some good American comic, Artesia being a personal favorite of mine.
>>110421364 The modern iteration of Valiant has only been around for two years, and the latest sampler was called "Must Read Valiant" with a list of the included titles right on the front, which is brightly colored to draw the eye. Valiant also releases all of their first trade volumes at $10 to encourage impulse buys, and has a uniform spine design to encourage recognition. Short of breaking down your door and shoving the issues down your pants, they can't do much more.
>>110421560 >even comics fans will admit that some storylines go to absolute shit I'm the comic store employee, I shit on storylines so often that my boss yells at me about it regularly. My original comment about people doing no research comes more from the stunning ignorance that people display, such as having to explain that the Walking Dead comic came first. I have also, on occasion, been asked to recommend comics to someone that had never read one before, which even in the limited scope of cape comics is a minefield.
>>110421481 >But the comic book industry is ruled by DC and Marvel. The smaller companies have such a minimal share of the pie in comparison. You can make the same argument for Japan with Shueisha and Kodansha.
>>110421012 really? I've seen them called shit on /v/, /tv/, /pol/, and /fit/. I haven't been on /co/ for years and looking at it now i see it hasn't changed much besides generals. Jesus almost the same topics from all them years ago
>>110420774 >Artists are better paid, always have been.
Yeah, point me to the American comic artist(s) who has made as much as the top 5 richest mangaka in Japan. The only ones who could come close are Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, and Todd McFarlane and that was back in the 90s.
While a top artist can fetch a lot of money for a book, there is, literally, no equivalent to creating, having, and owning your own series. Many top artists who for Marvel and DC don't own their own work. They don't own those characters. They are basically doing licensed work. Oda isn't doing licensed work, he's creating his own comic. A comic that sells more than the entirety of the American comics industry. Even if his story is rare I will be hardpressed to find an American comic artist that can amass the kind of bank that he has.
I like the variety of topics covered in manga as well as the art, it's usually very reflective of the mangaka's personality or what they are trying to express in their work. There are plenty of good female and male western artists but I feel like most of them get lost in the jumble of the industry or try to copy each other too much (such as artists on Tumblr or the ones who try to mimick artists like Djurdjevi?).
If I think of certain generations of anime/manga it's easy to point out titles and artists. It's hard to do the same with western comics.
>>110421380 >The majority of the Vertigo line-up is superior than mostly anything that has been done in manga, so the argument is void from that alone.
I don't know about that. I read Vertigo titles and I still reading manga a whole lot more. Way more actually. Granted I never read Sandman though, but the art really puts me off.
>The entirety of the comics found in the magazine Heavy Metal (and the french original Metal Hurlant) are better than manga.
I tried reading Heavy Metal and I just couldn't get into it. Prolly isn't really my thing.
>just as delusional as the people who think anime is only about tentacle porn. You are claiming that 1 book series > the medium of an entire country. I don't think it gets anymore delusional than that.
>>110416111 >written japanese is notoriously difficult to read No? I mean the culture between the two is certainly difficult and children may not be able to read some things but there's nothing particularly hard about reading the language itself if you know the words. There's even furigana which is used for younger people who don't know all the relevant kanji.
>>110422191 If they own the copyrights...then yes, they would own their own characters. Otherwise...it would be a case of what's going on in America where there would be 200+ DBZ stories being written and illustrated by various creators.
>>110422980 >But usually manga artists own their own creations?
Yes! That's what owning the copyrights mean. If the mangaka didn't own their own copyrights, that would mean Jump Comics could fire Kishimoto and hire someone like Oda to write and draw Naruto instead even though Kishimoto created Naruto.
So far, I have never heard of any Japanese publisher doing to a mangaka what DC to did Alan Moore's Watchman. It was awful.
That is the essential difference between being a mangka in Japan v. being an comic creator in America.
Here's what counts as "variety" in the Japanese entertainment industry: 1. Action super-hero manga with an useless twist. For example, the superheroes can be ninjas, pirates, alchemists, grim reapers, demons, robots, whatever. It's always the same and the variety is skin deep, no one actually acts like a pirate or a ninja. It's capeshit under a different name. 2. "Mature" manga. Usually the same as number 1 except with more gore/nudity/mindfuck porn. The equivalent of alternative/Vertigo comics in Japan. The really unique ones fit in here as well but they're so rare and fly so low under the Japanese radar you might just not count them (just like people don't count the alternative american scene). 3. Slice of Life/harem comedies. Boring crapola with characters that stay the same, no plot and people just enjoying it for "comfyness" and cutenss and fan-service. Almost always involves little girls with big eyes. The comedy is almost always some really awkward shit that only the strongest of weaboo can genuinely find funny. 4. Sports manga. Pretty much all of them copy the Rocky/Hoosiers formula, again and again. The twist is about the sport being different, even though the giant majority of them is about either baseball or basketball. Again, the variety is skin-deep because the sport looks different, but the content is almost always the same. Gets some extra points though because the west doesn't do sport comics very much.
>>110422980 >Punisher Max has nothing on Goodnight Punpun. That is the worst comparison I have ever seen.
>Like in the example of Moore and Watchmen Moore is an idiot and a hypocrite. All of the Watchmen characters are based on the then-recently acquired Charlton universe; they're parody, roughly as original as a Weird Al song. Much of his other "original" works are rife with characters he didn't create, the most heinous being Lost Girls. He didn't have the rights to use Wendy Darling, and the children's hospital that was granted ownership by JM Barrie wouldn't let him use her, so he waited until it passed into public domain and they couldn't stop him. Any pissy argument he had about creator's rights flew out the window, at least any that were left after he had Mr. Hyde rape the Invisible Man in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
>>110423301 I have abandoned books because. Before with the Marvel...I think that they used to get people who were pretty similar in style so it wouldn't be such a jarring change for the reader. I feel that they don't do that anymore so it really puts me off.
>>110423512 DC does it now, it's called a house style. Marvel's variety is seen by many as refreshing, but their best artists all look alike and the crazier ones tend to look like shit. They also stuck Javier Pulido on a book I was looking forward to, so fuck them.
Do Franco-Belgian comics cont as western comics?, because as fas as i know most of those comics are creator owned, and they have a great variety of styles and genres. Also Americans are not reduced to the big two, even ignoring the indi comics, there are publisher like image, that creator owned comics.
Also, there's way more stuff by and for females in Japan. There's stuff for little girls as well as porn that caters to women. In fact, it's not odd for women to create work for men/boys and vice versa. Not only that, but Shonen Jump got the hint: having good looking main characters will being in the female readers w/o sacrificing the action or the story for their core audience.
In America, so far...there's been only one female artist to finally draw Batman after how many years? Usually female artists draw female character books and the males draw the male books.
It shows how progressive America really is as a society.
>>110423807 There's also a factor of momentum. Marvel and DC are all that remains of the early industry, having swallowed up or just outlasted everyone else. Batman died as a property twice and came back twice before Dark Horse and Image got in the game.
> In 2014, Image will publish a new creator-owned series by Aaron and Latour titled Southern Bastards which the duo describe as a “southern fried crime comic.” Set in the rural setting of a fictional county in the heart of Alabama, Southern Bastards follows the big and the bad including a high school football coach with bodies buried in his end zone, crooked sheriffs, and of course some classic southern barbecue.
> In July, O’Malley will release the follow-up to his New York Times Bestselling series with a new, auspicious series titled Seconds. Set in a titular small-town restaurant inspired by the cartoonist’s own time spent working at a Toronto restaurant in the early days of Scott Pilgrim, Seconds centers on a “loveable spaz” named Katie who works at the eatery.
> The gods only know what's going to happen to the U.S. release of the movie, but at least we can read the original French graphic novel Snowpiercer, courtesy of Titan. The story is about the last remnants of humanity, stuck on a train that continually circles the earth, where the elite live in the front cars and the downtrodden toil in the back.
> From Alyssa Milano — yes, that Alyssa Milano — comes this comic about two computer programmers who run the social network site YourLife while secretly working as hacker-crusaders to fight tyranny across the globe. From Boom Studios.
>>110423973 There really aren't that many female artists that are worth a shit. I love Amanda Connor, but she's so slow she just sticks to covers and writing that obscenely disappointing Harley Quinn book.
>>110424270 > Evan Dorkin's quasi-lovable group returns! When Bill's job at the comic store starting tearing the group apart, the Eltingville Comic Book, Science-Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, and Role-Playing Club calls it quits. Unfortunately, these guys don't quit with dignity as much as they do with a scorched earth policy.
> A women in prison movie… set in space… which is actually a comic written by Captain Marvel's Kelly Sue Deconnick? YES, PLEASE. Deconnick's promises to match the sexploitation of the genre with actual feminism, and if anybody can do it and make it wildly entertaining, she can.
> An intriguing scifi comic from Image about a future where radiation has forced humanity to live in underwater cities. Now a probe with information on a new planet they can move to has returned, but it's landed on the surface — and representatives from the warring clans of humanity must work together to recover it.
> In creating a biography of a cult figure, you have to be careful not to trivialize a human life for the sake of novelty, but Box Brown is well qualified to produce an exemplary take on the 7-and-a-half-foot pro wrestler best known for his role in The Princess Bride.
>>110424270 >>110424309 >> The gods only know what's going to happen to the U.S. release of the movie, but at least we can read the original French graphic novel Snowpiercer, courtesy of Titan. The story is about the last remnants of humanity, stuck on a train that continually circles the earth, where the elite live in the front cars and the downtrodden toil in the back.
This is the only one that sounds interesting, but as typical of American comics...it's mostly, crime dramas and sci-fi. I mean we have one that's a biographical and a SOL one.
>>110424737 It's not that. Most of what is released is sci-fi. It's ALWAYS sci-fi. If not sci-fi, it's crime. Sometimes you'll get memoirs, but it's usually sci-fi...and zombies. I forgot about that too.
One thing I've noticed in a lot of western comics is that they force as many words in dialogue bubbles as possible. Bugs me to spend so much time on a single panel when its just some bits of dialogue but it feels more like artists have issues with pacing
What are you talking about? There's just as much crime and sci-fi manga, but it's not the ONLY thing going on there. That's the essential difference. There's a good variety of genres. Not so much in America though....
>>110418870 You're being incredibly biased. Also, it's not the waifufags that are bad but weaboo waifufags. There is also nothing bad about watching a series simply because you like one character. Plenty non-waifufags do that.
No one is saying western comics are inherently bad or there is nothing good but the fact of the matter is that what the industry puts out is pathetic in comparison.
There are good authors and artists everywhere but the American industry is so absolutely fucking horrible that it does everything to push them away. The fact that almost everything good currently releasing is indie or underground is one of the big problems.
Just using common sense you shouldn't expect an industry that only sells it's product in specialty shops which in turn are dominated by two companies' products to be able to match in variety, quantity or general quality an industry that sells it products in every convenience and corner store as well as specialty shops. If American comics had the same variety and quantity it would be a fucking miracle.
>>110423161 >So far, I have never heard of any Japanese publisher doing to a mangaka what DC to did Alan Moore's Watchman. It was awful. I actually heard that the main reason why Negima ended so abruptly was because Ken's publishers were trying to take the copyright for the Negima characters from him and replace him with someone else. Naturally they failed since he torched the series and went elsewhere, but it doesn't mean that manga publishers don't want to try and create the same sort of industry as western publishers have.
It's not that comics thmselves are shit - there are quite few amazing stories/volumes - but they're buried in a mess of continuity, crossovers, "canon or not", 20th author working on the same character/universe, reboots, and 40 years old series.
I wouldn't ever touch something like Spider/Bat/Superman or all of that: but i'd totally buy Watchmen - a single volume, self contained, amazing story.
Also, graphic novels can be quite great too - but that's a little different kind of comic.
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