>>110477824 MAGICAL swords >>110477800 Stronger sure. But as you just said, before fighting against Touma, awakening after listening to Index song and fighting against Kakine, he wouldn't do much against magic. If a magic user were against him and finished him QUICKLY he wouldn't have time to change his calculations.
>>110477426 Well the Toaruverse is fucked since IB is required for the universe to function. Shirou doesn't have anything to do with Keikaku, so he won't get wrapped up in all the shit Touma did (assuming the world doesn't break apart the moment Touma leaves). Though Crowley might want to use his Projection ability somehow, who knows.
Touma's basically only survived by his support network and losing in ways that achieve his objectives. He doesn't have the first going for him in Nasu, and the second is a total toss-up which he probably can't achieve without the first.
The mostly likely scenario is both worlds are destroyed. Nasu by the Grail, Toaru by either whatever the hell Crowley is cooking up or IB leaving.
>>110477875 It's possible that a Servant might not realize how bullshit Touma's right hand is, which just looks like "attack cancel" most of the time it's used. Once they know they disintegrate on contact he's fucked, but without that knowledge he might be able to bullshit something off.
Touma stands no chance against Medusa or Cu, because they are too fast to intercept, Nor against Iskander, unless he can IB an entire plane of existence, and he could not hope to even touch saber without losing an arm, and Herc isn't even a question.
>>110478158 His arm is likely not a high enough level Divine Mystery to overcome it, so he would probably be hit by grail mud, and at best would come out darkened.
But, I've never seen or read index, so someone correct me if I'm wrong.
>>110478108 I think the only precedent we have prior to that is his ability to reflect teleportation effects that he can't quite understand himself (or else he could be a teleporting Accelerator, and that's just garbage).
However, he has shown himself capable of figuring out amazing shit on the fly. And remember that old Accelerator is actually smarter in terms of raw computational power than new Accelerator.
Yes I know rabid Touma fans will come shout me down and say "he won he won he won he won" but objectively speaking, Touma can get his ass handed to him by literally anyone he's ever fought. The only reason he won all those fights is outside help. The minute people stop protecting him and someone really fucking wants him dead, he's dead. No "m-muh punching" is going to change that. The only reason he didn't straight up lose even his first round in NT10, never mind his other rounds, is people were on his side.
>>110478091 I find the question uninteresting honestly, but i'll give you a decent explanation.
Basically the Toaru universe consists of a bunch of fake universes stacked on top of a "real" one (it doesn't have any magic or religion in it, all religions are fake in Toaru). Imagine Breaker contains the data on all of these universes, and knows what's natural and what isn't. It's a reference point to return to and reconstruct any realty if you can't do it yourself.
Basically anything that doesn't fit the data in IB of what "should" be there gets destroyed.
>>110477426 >replacing a well-written character with great scenes confronting his ideologies and whatnot with a complete mary-sue generic protag who has nothing interesting going for him Touma is literally one of the worst characters we've been forced to endure. And this board's boner for him is just insulting to everyone's intelligence
>>110478091 >I don't know the exact mechanics of IB. Neither does anyone else. >>110478160 Servants are spirits, but they have a "natural" origin. These kind of cross-overs are stupid.
Even if Servants weren't natural, a single touch wouldn't kill a Servant. It'd just drain the shit out of their prana until either the Servant/Master ran out or they stopped touching each other. Which means Touma gets wrecked.
I'm not familiar with Fate, but isn't there something like that already? Rule Breaker?
>>110478382 It's not completely invincible. At some point in time Fiamma of the Right gather up, like, all the prana in the world and chucks it at Touma, and Imagine Breaker isn't able to eat through it completely.
Also, for those of you not in the know, if Touma loses his arm, something fucking mysterious awesome comes out. I'll leave it to someone familiar with both worlds to estimate its power.
So when lolisensei was talking about personal reality and how the powers worked in Toaru, what it really meant is the espers were manipulating an alternate universe and compositing it on to the real one?
>>110478505 Not how Fiamma's power works. It doesn't have destructive force or speed or power. It just hits and destroys the enemy because it does and it has enough power to destroy them because it needs that much power to destroy them.
Touma was only able to barely deflect it since it couldn't judge exactly how much power it needed to destroy him.
>>110478617 I liked him less early on. I like him more now that basically everyone has called him on his shit and his response has been "Yeah, I don't really care if i'm right or not, i'm still just going to do whatever I want."
>>110478091 well, this >>110478262 anon explained pretty much everything revealed (yet), but there's still no real / canon explanation about IB's true nature. The only one who know IB's true nature are Terra (dead), Aiwass, Aleister, and Kamachi himself.
>>110478617 Touma does whatever HE thinks is right. He's strong enough to say, "fuck your greater good, I'm looking out for my friend's greater good". He's like the typical edgy anti-hero except he's not edgy, he's likable, and he isn't afraid to get his collard shirt dirty to fight for what he thinks is right.
>>110478921 The thing that's kind of annoying about Touma is that he wins all the time, and never had to make a hard decision until NT9. It's like the universe conspires to support his moral system. He never even has to kill anyone.
>>110478857 He probably could not survive, because Cu claims that wounds inflicted by Gae Bulg will not heal. Unless he has some magical sheathe which has a perfect healing ability, Accelerator's days are numbered.
>>110478812 Yep, that's what I said before, this is about what we know about IB's true nature (until now) and there's still a lot more. I'm pretty sure remember that Terra said it himself that he didn't know what is "true purpose" of IB's existence, at least he has some grasp about IB.
>>110478857 >Could Accelerator survive Gae Bolg? When Gae Bulge pierces the heart, it shoots thorny vines throughout the victims blood vessels. Even if Accelerator can deflect them away from his vessels, he's still getting shredded.
>>110479084 He loses fights, but he never "morally loses." He never has to give up any of his ideals or loses what is important to him (until, again, NT9). The world pretty much conspires to make his decisions right. That's a luxury that Accelerator and Hamazura don't get to enjoy.
>>110479229 NT 7 actually did have a moment like that as well. At the end of the Rensa fight, he went after her knowing that he might be killing Yakumi. He was hoping Rensa would save her somehow, but he was willing to kill Yakumi to save Rensa if it came down to it.
He was pretty bitter in the epilogue as well of that volume.
>>110479084 Except he's come out okay in literally everything he's done even if he gets injured. Everyone sees him as perfect. All the girls want his dick despite the fact he has no looks or personality, only "hurr I'll charge in and punch someone for you". I think the only reason this board likes him is so they can pretend they've won all these battles and have women on their dicks which could explain why people are so passionate about shipping
>>110479286 Nah, I doubt Archer hate Touma. Archer hate Shirou because he keep spew some bullshit about saving everyone and become hero, which he will sacrifice himself if necessary. Touma didn't care about that crap, if Archer said that he will take care of some mess, Touma will let him do it. Yes, sometimes their path will cross and their fight is inevitable, but they will get along most time.
>>110479323 Think about Cu, isn't Lancelot's NP is Anti-Unit A++ rank? Hypothetically speaking Lancelot have capable or at least decent master, isn't Arondight spammable just like Gae Bolg but more lethal?
>>110479345 >Everyone sees him as perfect I see. You get most of New Testament is just people telling Touma he's full of shit and Touma agreeing right?
Hell people don't give Touma enough credit in-series if anything. Most of his allies were willing to kill him without listening to what he had to say in 10. It was kind of psychotic. Hell internally he spent most of 10 saying "I'm not doing the right thing here, but i'll just let them punish me afterwards."
Granted he was trying to protect an omnicidal psychopath, which would confuse most people.
>>110479600 >Touma might just end up with a non-magical lance in his heart without the vein-raping magic. Technically, the spear has correctly struck its target, like it is supposed to. Possibly if he puts his hand on his chest covering his heart but it will still pierce him.
>>110479345 Most people barely care about Index ships anymore. Even people who do ship Index don't take it that seriously. The only "passionate" argument people have had lately is about whether Misaka Mikoto is a shit and that was just dumb all around.
It's probably trolling but lately people have been claiming that Misaka is more likely to end up with Accelerator than Touma, who they figure will either get a bad end or an Index end.
>>110479905 Most of it is. Accelerator straight up said he would kill Mikoto for having given up her DNA map as a kid if the Sisters would allow it. As far as he's concerned she's as guilty as he is. Was in the PSP game, but it's written by Kamachi and was referenced in the LN.
>>110480018 A PSP game is not canon even if some ideas are later used in the novel. I am not saying that he doesn't feel that way in the novels, but until Kamachi writes in the actual novels that he'd kill her if the Sisters would allow it, then I really wouldn't consider it absolute canon
>>110480018 No, he said that he wouldn't kill her because she was responsible for the Sisters being born. Also, Accelerator is all talk. Deep inside, when he's not eating people's faces he's a big old softie.
>>110480578 Honestly if he ever did develop feelings for her or the clones he'd probably keep it to himself so regardless of whether or not it's possible for her/them to return his feelings, it wouldn't go anywhere because it'd be kept hidden
>>110477426 Kind of depends when they start in their timelines and how much remains the same despite being a protag switch. For example, if they just both randomly dropped into each other's world's one day, Touma would never even see the Grail War and Shirou would get killed instantly by Mikoto's electricity.
Realistically though, both have chances of surviving somewhat. Touma's IB makes him a wild card and depending on your interpretation of it, will kill any servant/weapon it touches, or at least force them back into spirit form immediately. This is a great boon for him if he teams up with someone like Rin, whom is sure to weaponize him to great effect. Shirou will have a harder time in academy city, but if he can get someone like Kanzaki or Index to teach him the basics of magic, or at least to utilize his projection properly, he should be able to win a few battles. Of course, he won't have Avalon anymore, so his suicide tactics won't last him too long.
In conclusion, I'd say Touma has the best chance of surviving, and maybe even winning, in Fateverse whereas Shirou will start having trouble against higher tier magicians.
>>110478220 Touma's arm seems to operate on a direct link to Index's equivalent of Akasha, so the only person w ho can challenge him directly would be Ryougi. Nothing in Fate, short of maybe Avalon, will overcome IB. Additionally, IB has been proven to not destroy just localized realities, but entire alternate universes as well, so reality marbles are small time. Finally, Shirou logically shouldn't be able to keep up with servants either, but he does so anyways without completely shattering his bones with just one swing. It's clear servants don't move as fast as Nasu claims - even F/Z shows them moving pretty slow - slow enough for the human eye to track perfectly fine.
>>110481601 For shirou it comes down to how well his tracing could stack up against magic. Can he fight off innocentius with his weapons? If he can't even beat a jobber like Stiyl then there's no way he could handle people who are seriously strong like acqua or curtana boosted knights and such.
And then for Touma we should compare servants and mages in nasuverse with magic gods like ollerus and othinus. We know othinus even before gungnir > dragon and dragon > damn near everything. So even if a servant cuts off IB, how do they fare against the new entity?
>>110482001 She believes she sucks luck from other people as the explanation for why her luck is so good. Dunno if it's true but I don't see Touma's friends or people around him having exceptionally good luck from him not gaining any
>>110477426 Touma is a more dangerous shiki, he can oneshot servants with IB and negate many of their NPs but his physical attributes suck in comparison. He can beat any of them depending on chance but the odds are slim
Shirou loses to stiyl. UBW shirou or Archer can get through most of the magicians and espers though the level 5s from mugino upwards and gunha can beat archer (accel and kakine easily, mikoto and mugino in a tough battle 50/50 )
Against the saints shown, their physical stats are equal to or above the top tier Servants so archer loses to acqua probably. Against Brynhildr Silvia and kanzaki its a difficult call as their stats are better but UBW is OP
>Touma gets killed by Berserker because his weapon is actually what he was summoned with and can't just be imagined away >Shirou gets fried by Stiyl and index gets her memories wiped again Great story guys
>>110484144 Imagine Breaker is inherently weak to projectile spam but Touma is able to handle various forms of it pretty well by grabbing shit and throwing it at other shit in a fancy way that opens up a safe spot for him.
>>110484144 More spam doesn't help. Accel attacked Touma with an obscene amount of wings in WW3 and Touma just grabbed one, turned it at a weird angle to block the rest and accel was stupefied that he was still standing.
>>110485150 >a normal weapon he can use to deflect shit. It doesn't work that way if it gets turned into a normal weapon it will break once the legendary weapon hits it, it would be like a bullet going through paper.
>>110485383 Are there any other characters besides Touma and Shirou that could be thematically appropriately swapped?
>>110485416 >he is not strong enough to move a sword to deflect everything. At some point it's revealed that Touma is capable of phenomenal combat-potential garbage. Essentially, if there's any way, in any universe, that a sword could be thrown into a sword rain, deflecting enough swords into swords to give him any chance of survival, then he could do it.
If it's completely, completely impossible - nobody could do it, no matter how lucky, no matter how skilled - then he'll eat it. Or >>110485517, but that's stupid.
>>110485512 I'd think that his IB would cut off the servant's prana supply from their master, but servants can still function without that for a short while. And if it's an archer they can survive for 2 days.
>>110485627 >>110485637 Whatever he beats Gil, I just know one can overpower the other and if Gil was serious there's no way Touma should be able to defeat him if Gil exhausts him enough, but then again Touma can conjure plot armor from his ass so he will always win in any situation.
Touma loses a lot, the problem is Gil is relying on completely magical items and we're assuming Touma has full control over dragon or at least awareness to make it come out.Since all this shit is hypothetical anyway
>>110477426 Nobody here read the index LN? >Touma would get his right arm severed by Lancer during their first random encounter. >Lancer would tell him why this is happening before wanting to execute him. >Lancer would smirk as he seems to have won against his bad luck this time. >A monstrosity appears from Touma's right shoulder stump that ravages Lancer to shreds. >Father Kotomine picks up the young man, carries him to the safety of the Church and sows his right hand back. >Touma runs into Ilyasviel and randomly falls upon her body, faceplanting her cunt and hands on her DFC. >The Grail's vessel is now destroyed, all Servants fuck off. The end
Just because both series have saints doesnt make them equalized at all. Arthur in index isn't a woman.
Saints are able to move at supersonic to hypersonic speeds while fighting. Kanzaki was able to perform an orbital reentry without protective gear and she managed to hold Archangel Gabriel at bay for a while when the latter is basically Divine Spirit/aristoteles tier in power with wings that could blow away mountains and Gabriel was preparing a spell to blow up the entire planet. And Kanzaki is mid tier saint in terms of specs, tied with brynhildr and Silvia. Acqua beasts them all in a physical fight.
Its being lenient already to say saints are equal to servants physically as they already have feats that even arturia and Heracles would be hard pressed to match. And those two have by far the best physical stats of servants and would both destroy Archer in a straight up fight.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from them. If you need IP information for a Poster - you need to contact them. This website shows only archived content.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content you can contact me at email@example.com with that post and thread number and it will be removed as soon as possible.