Is holding sword like this practical or is it solely for profile shots?
Yes, actually. Good for getting around shields or in between armor joints, but really only practical with a short blade. It's almost always just a way to look cool in anime/manga though.
>Some styles of Kung Fu, when using a short knife as a weapon, will teach students to use a backhanded grip. Most techniques from this grip are strikes or jabs with the pommel, rather than blade techniques; it's the defensive techniques that use the blade, and mostly for non-flashy disabling cuts. "Yeah, you're not using that arm without some serious surgery..." The stabbing motion with the backhand grip also uses the same action as the (karate) chop, which lends itself well to open-hand styles.
>Parrying daggers are often used in this way. As the name suggests, they're mostly for blocking the other guy's sword. And they often are more useful when held in a Reverse Grip because doing so decreases the strain on wrists (as the parrying weapon is supported with the entire arm this way), thus allowing for a firmer hold on the weapon when blocking. It's worth mentioning that NO western fighting manuals from XVI to XVIII century actually teach holding a parrying dagger in RG. But it's a common grip only to daggers itself in XV-XV Ic. manuals.
>Both swords and daggers / combat knives operate mainly by punching holes into vital organs and arteries. Slashing and chopping attacks are much less deadly and more suited to axes and axe-like falchions. A sword with at least an arm's length allows one to impale another without being touched in return, so it is used in the forward grip maximizing the reach, while using the pommel and crossguard as a secondary weapon against the head up close. A dagger or knife doesn't work at range, and the reverse grip is used to more easily reach the vital spots on the neck and chest in a brawl, as the forward grip results in much less deadly strikes to the gut and legs.
>In kenjutsu and batt?jutsu, the katana is usually held like this when wielded one-handed, since one has more control. Even then, different motions are called for; the sword is moved in arcs or figure-8s rather than straight cuts, again to keep more control of the blade.
It can be used to get a very fast strike in when you don't have time to bring your hand across your body to your sheath, but you have next to zero blocking potential out of that grip.
>One defensive stance for a two-handed sword has the blade pointed down with the hands at about face-height; this allows for relatively quick strikes at the legs and, due to the weight and balance of the blade, allows for more efficient thrusts. (Instead of swinging the sword down to line up your thrust and then stopping the movement, you just relax and let the hilt drop towards you, and shove up and out. If you're going to be wielding a BFS for the duration of a battle, the more work gravity's doing for you the better.)
Word count got too big. Before you ask, I'm quoting my quick google search.
Yeah, the way I see people use this style in anime and manga is the stupid way, and usually with one long blade which is the extra stupid way. It's actually useful if you stab like this with a short blade though. Creates completely different angles of attack compared with stabbing with a more standard grip that make it trickier for your opponent to deal with and often causes them to open themselves to attack on the opposite side. The flipside of course is that whichever side you're using the reserved grip on is much more open to attack yourself because you ain't blocking anything with that.
>The flipside of course is that whichever side you're using the reserved grip on is much more open to attack yourself because you ain't blocking anything with that.
You ain't blocking with the blade if you're using a dagger anyway; that's what bracers and dodging are for.
You wouldnt hold a knife like that either, its useless for stabbing that way
You're not really sheathing it in that case; you're toting it. If you have to unsling the entire thing to get your sword out, we're talking about an entirely different ballgame.
I've used this with two short swords before and I block with short swords all the time, you're just not going to be able to do that with a reversed one very well. I guess if they're stupid enough to aim low on that side it might be somewhat useful, but your wrist is almost definitely not strong enough pushing in that direction to resist any real force.
>As most of these posts are describing
>Shortblades and daggers used to supplement fistfighting
>quickdraw technique which as stated is irrelevant when you put your sword on your fucking back
The main point here is that the grip pictured is actually used in real fighting, but that anime and manga pretty much never depict it being used properly so you're right to call it stupid but it is still a thing.
Two swords, one reversed and shorter than the other is actually really nice.
Replace every instance of "hilt" here with "guard"; I'm ultra sleep-deprived atm.
>The main point here is that the grip pictured is actually used in real fighting, but that anime and manga pretty much never depict it being used properly so you're right to call it stupid but it is still a thing.
> the icepick grip is frequently employed by untrained knife users esp. persons of lesser strength in an attempt to increase thrusting force
> footwork and body movements including -parrying- and deception -defenses-
>hurr i found it on wikipedia but didnt bother to read it
Not a single mention of stabbing or stabbing directed anything.
Go learn some basic human anatomy to find out why stabbing with a underhanded grip is fucking retarded.
Yep. Landsknecht were always pictured toting their zweihänder.
You can use a backhand grip but you atleast need a shield or buckler to make up for guarding. Though back hand grip is popular with a knife in the buckler hand accompanied by a sword in the other.
>Up until the late 1980s, the consensus amongst most martial arts experts was that the icepick grip was the mark of an amateur, and that one who chose to attack using such a grip was easily disarmed. This argument was not entirely without merit, as many impulsive and unskilled knife attacks feature a wild downward thrust in which the knife is gripped in this manner. However, many pragmatic martial artists who had actually been attacked with knives (such as James Keating) became increasingly vocal in their assertion that not only is it extremely dangerous for an unarmed martial artist to attempt to disarm a knifefighter, but in the hands of a reasonably proficient fighter (such as Eskrima practitioners), a knife held in this fashion is remarkably fluid and can deliver multiple cuts from a variety of angles simply by manipulating the wrist. Such flexibility of technique make it extremely dangerous to attempt to immobilize the knife hand by grasping the wrist, as it can quickly circle around and do damage to tendons, nerves, or blood vessels.
Spoonfeeding only goes so far, moron.
> but in the hands of a reasonably proficient fighter (such as Eskrima practitioners), a knife held in this fashion is remarkably fluid and can deliver multiple cuts from a variety of angles simply by manipulating the wrist
Go learn things, etc.
You can make it work, but it's neither practical nor optimal.
If you look at both HEMA and Eastern styles, they all more or less use the same fundamentals (single longsword, footwork, stances, guards, strikes, etc.)
The 1995 movie The Hunted had some bits where the ninjas used this grip. The old blacksmith said it was common to them but it probably had little to no historical basis.
There is literally NO benefit to running like Naruto does.
That's not what you'll be thinking in an actual battle.
Dual wielding with two weapons is generally a combination of a shorter weapon and a long one, or two short ones.
With a long + short combo, the shorter one is used primarily for defense.
Two short weapons are generally ones that follow physical movements much like punching, only slightly adjusted to cut.
Either way, a buckler or any shield with a weapon works well. In fact, a buckler is in itself a good weapon, especially if spiked or paired with a katar.
Your profile is lower and you can easily retrieve your weapons.
It does not, however, provide any speed boost.
I always just assumed they were running so fast that their arms did that by themselves.
My logic: I guess if your a ninja and running its best cause your hands wont get in your way or hit anything that could make noise?
I understand. Duel wielding lances is where it's at.
>Your profile is lower and you can easily retrieve your weapons.
>It does not, however, provide any speed boost.
If you run like that you'll just fall on your face. His whole body is horribly off balance.
Holding a gun or dagger facing downwards is 100% always for the cool factor. It's completely impractical and stupid to even wield one like that in real life. You leave yourself way too exposed, and you'll only ever use a dagger like that if you're stabbing someone from on top.
I've heard some styles use it for defense but only for a shorter blade. Also if it's just a pocket knife it can be useful to punch and then bring the blade back across a face like that otherwise it's for the cool factor
How viable is dual wielding a Sword and Double-bladed Pole Arm?
Putting a Katana in your mouth is probably not a good idea
they are few and far between and no longer practical in pretty much any situation other than sneak attacks and stabbing from above.
Nowadays most people tend to bring guns to a knife fight, sooooo...
Eskrima guys still have enough raw brutality in their art for them to kick the shit out of any random idiot on crack. These are the guys who took a small stick and thought "how can I really, really beat the shit out of someone with a stick?"
He's basically using it to do his own bastardised version of Iaijutsu: With a sword that short he needs the extra momentum.
It's not realistic or practical, but it does make sense.
I did an unarmed spar with a nigga once.
I got taken down. That big Giga Nigga body is hard to face against head on without any leverage.
On the knife spar though, I shanked the nigga. Got some clean hits on his neck and his gut. That shit is good as fatal. You don't mess with a tiny brown man who is armed.
That said, my next knife sparring partner was a french exchange student.
I got my ass whooped. Both unarmed and armed. Whoever said that French guys are fucking pansies is a fucking liar.
In WWII French had their capital taken hostage thanks to border shenanigans. They surrendered and America insulted them for losing after bragging about impenetrable borders. Today, French are still laughed at.
It doesn't take you twice as long to get ad good as with one blade, it takes you four times as long.
If you do get that good,though, well, Miyamoto Musashi founded an entire school based on Nitoryu.
Dual wielding was a common style back in the 16th century. They would use a long sword coupled with a parrying dagger (also known as a sword breaker). It's better used against an enemy with a single sword and shield or a two-handed sword, because you can block their weapon with your weapon and stab them with the parrying dagger, or you can use the parrying dagger to snap their weapon.
It's a good way to work up quick launches and low profile balance. Back in high school I used to be able to lunge 5 meters in a single step and get 4 wall kicks in a vertical wall run thanks to that.
Arnis / Kali is much less a "Martial Art" but more of a standardized way of going apeshit on your opponents and do horrible things to them that is thinly disguised as a martial art.
Bloody hell, when he asked a volunteer to demonstrate a move on, he whacked a rattan stick to my head for no goddamn reason. And during the day where it just so happened that none of the female students were able to attend, the instructor taught us knife maneuvers that easily allowed the assailant to pin down a female into easy groping and or raping position.
>the instructor taught us knife maneuvers that easily allowed the assailant to pin down a female into easy groping and or raping position.
Your instructor sounds like a great man.
Hitting people over the head is common in martial arts everywhere, apparently. My kendo instructor (jap guy but pretty hueg by nip standards) told us that when he was in highschool their instructor would often demonstrate a correct Men (=blow to the head) to class on the guy who did the worst in practice/didn't like very much for whatever reason. WithOUT the head protector/Men of course.
There was a time when runners leaned forward because the belief was that the reciprocating motion of the legs provided a more efficient transfer of energy to the ground. However Michael Johnson used an upright sprinting stance and it was discovered that it maximizes stride length and thus speed. I suppose in the Naruto setting if you are using chakra to provide thrust and are taking repeated hops, it might be more important to maximize the efficiency of those bursts by leaning forward for better leverage.
Dual wielding was popular with light blades until emphasis was placed on the thrust over the slash. The lunge was the killing blow and the parry and riposte became the primary mode of defense. The sideways stance was adopted to reduce the target profile.
He called me as a volunteer to demonstrate some takedowns on. The random rattan blow to the head was probably on account of him being a plain old sociopath.
It's hard to describe movements word for word here so I'll just give a really rough rundown that will hopefully make sense.
Involves getting behind your victim by first locking her one arm behind her with the same arm you are holding the knife on.
The end result is that both of you are still standing up, you are behind the girl, one girl's arm is locked with your armed hand whereas the knife is pointed to her back. Your other hand is free to either grope her wherever you want.
Same initial movements as the groping but rather than stopping at the lock with the knife, you go further and proceed to a hammerlock-like initiation state where you can just bring her down to her knees while applying pressure to her shoulders. Once she is at the ground, she should be in a position where her ass is presenting itself to you. At this point, you are free to pull down whatever garments she is wearing there and have your way with her. Alternatively, you can engage in a kinky spanking session.
Do note that when we were practicing this, we were all dudes. So rather than groping delicious meat and pussy, we groped man chests and cocks. And rather than some girl's peaches, we got smelly man ass.
That said, it was a very fun day at class.
It's a real stance that was used by the shaolin monks among others. It prioritizes the slash, so in a series where people have super strength and shit it is logical. Also it looks cool for the opening.
Depends on the context. Shields are both bulkier and heavier then a sword. It is more acceptable to carry a light blade in polite society than to go about armed and armored. For example, today someone conceal carrying a subcompact and a tactical folder in their pocket is more acceptable then someone with a long arm strapped to their back and a kbar strapped to their leg.
>Once she is at the ground, she should be in a position where her ass is presenting itself to you. At this point, you are free to pull down whatever garments she is wearing there and have your way with her. Alternatively, you can engage in a kinky spanking session.
>Once she is at the ground, she should be in a position where her ass is presenting itself to you. At this point, you are free to pull down whatever garments she is wearing there and have your way with her. Alternatively, you can engage in a kinky spanking session.
This is my fetish.
>this comes up.
I'm sorry I doubted you anon. From now on, I shall call this the rapelock.
Any time you see a nigga with a sward and he does not have a knife SOMEWHERE on his body you can assume whatever he's doing is some bullshit and is solely for the aesthetic
You can also assume that once he's closed range and his first move isn't TACKLE A MOTHERFUCKER whatever he's doing is some bullshit that is solely for the aesthetic
Because banging weapons on other weapons deal damage to the wielder, obviously.
For a blade as long as that? Not really. There are some leading strikes you can do that way, but you need to switch to a normal grip after that. If your weapon is shorter it has uses. Additionally it does conceal the weapon somewhat, especially length, so it can be used to sneak in an attack.
A reverse grip on a sword could be used for a guard like with a tonfa stick, but it's kind of situational.
With a knife a reverse grip immediately brings to mind German fighting manuals. Nowadays all knife-fighters tend to advocate a fencing grip, but back then they taught to use the reverse grip.
Since if the opponent had armor of some sort, leading with cuts might not work, so the general idea was to grapple and stab the shit out of the opponent while tussling or locking them. That way you could get into the small niches and segments between plates or into the armpits or at the neck or whatnot.
They also taught wrestling with a longsword, half-swording it. Brutal shit, bashing a head with the pommel and breaking limbs with the leverage etc.
they actually DID hold weapons that way but not for fighting. The idea was that you could run up to someone while hiding what you were holding and then murder the fuck out of them. It's an assassination technique, not something you'd use in combat.
I always wondered why in many action games/anime which inculdes katana swordfighting there is always a moment when one of fighters put his sword in sheath and deliver a swing that is much more stronger than regular swing, what's the point of it?
>A reverse grip on a sword could be used for a guard like with a tonfa stick, but it's kind of situational.
I am pretty sure you never want to use a longsword solely for the purpose of parrying.
Use a maingauch, use a shield but for gods sake don't use a longsword
a reverse grip is good for grappling, but that kind of goes against the whole point of a sword; you're honestly more likely to stab yourself than the other guy. Infact, there are a bunch of techniques in ninjutsu for killing people with their own swords that involve forcing them into reverse grips.
I use small knives reverse grip at work all the time. I'm kind of glad to know it's possibly viable in fights too.
Say if you had your sword on your hip, and you main hand wasn't able to reach, you could reverse grip it and block with it like that in a pinch.
Drawing it properly with the same side hand would be awkward to defend with, you know. Still, very situational. More of a trick than a skill.
If the Strong is blunt, it's not going to break that easily.
Of course, I'm talking relative to sword strike, spear stabs and lunges, rather than sledgehammer blows of some sort.
Besides, it's a tool meant to be used.
No, because I never played it and don't intend to. It's not a genre I like.
Also, it's easier to believe that he is actually dumb because a lot of people believe that movie/anime fights are the epitome of realism (and they aren't).
Unless you're doing a running slice where you drag the sword, no it really isn't a strong attack. The wrist motion doesn't use any decent muscles and you can't position it properly for leverage.
>Even the fate/extra system makes more sense
You're making it sound like Rock, Paper, Scissors is complicated.
The only way that Fire Emblem is more complex is the addition of range, and the fact that both parties cannot cancel/override the other's actions.
>If the Strong is blunt, it's not going to break that easily.
That's bullshit. Do you imply that if a weapon is partly broken it can't get anymore destroyed?
>Of course, I'm talking relative to sword strike, spear stabs and lunges, rather than sledgehammer blows of some sort.
You are talking about these weapons i which regard? That she can't get any duller or what?
Like that other anon said, people have hardons for Iai/battoujutsu. Looks cool, and is the equivalent of a quick draw.
But unless you're Sam with this rigged rifle-sheath, it really be any more effective midbattle as any other distracting flourish
>You're making it sound like Rock, Paper, Scissors is complicated.
Implying it isn't
blunt weapons are still superior
That hold was only used for daggers and knifes to get more power behind a stab. Read some swiss manuals on that,shit gets pertty dirty in that kind of fight. All swords rely on momentum and muscle power for strikes so this example was only for show. Nips can't comprehend double edged swords.
Blunt weapons can take a long time to kill, whereas pretty much every bladed weapon is extremely dangerous all the time.
Pierce weapons can hit organs pretty deep so they're really great, and using a lance isn't hard.
Bladed weapons are the shit against armored opponents though, so I'd say blunt isn't superior, but the most versatile.
Right, well the sword is generally in western schools divided into the Strong and the Weak. The Strong is the lower half, which is used for defending and leverage. Never really used for cutting or slashing, since it doesn't get the same acceleration as the tip.
The Weak is the top half and the tip, named so because trying to move something with it is difficult. It's good for attacking, but you can't for example parry with it because you're wrists wouldn't be strong enough.
Since the Strong is never used to attack, some designs had it blunt, sometimes called ricassos and shit. This allows it to be thicker and sturdier, so defending with the sword isn't as dangerous.
If that explains what I was talking about, then let's try continuing.
I guess if you're running toward something it gives you a temporary speed and evasion boost at the risk of getting insta killed because of no parrying. In a real battle it would take someone real ballsy to even attempt it but it might be advantageous in certain niche scenarios.
Ask.the Koreans who defended them selves from chinks and japs alike with them. They have a 5 man formation where 1 archer is placed at the back. 2 spearmen at the sides and 2 guys either wielding 2 sabres or a sabre and buckler.
Other examples are cossacs who used hit and run tactics.
If you define dual wielding as wielding the same type of weapon in each hand then there are chinese qxe fighters who used hatchets, also chinks with deer horn knifes,hook swords and special one edged shortswords. In the west they only used 2 daggers or falchions. Otherwise you can classify fencing techniques as dual wielding since most of times they used a parrying dagger as lower gague for guards feints and fighting dirty.
What do you want to do with it?
Spears = high penetration, low training for a high efficiency, efficient against cavalry, a lucky shot can be an instant kill even against armored soldiers.
Swords = low penetration, almost useless against armor if you can't spend a large amount of time looking for an opening in the armor, requires more skill, more resource intensive, useless against cavalry.
You're better off using blunt weapons if your opponent has an armor.
>can take a long time to kill
A piece of iron to the head is a pretty fast way to kill. And if you break the guy's arm/ribcage/legs I don't think he'd still be able to do much of a stand.
In a blunt vs unarmored, you can expect the opponent to be nimble enough to avoid/block headshots.
If it's blunt vs armored, there's no comparison to be done since using a bladed weapon is the dumbest move ever.
I am well aware about the structure of a longsword, but I don't understand why you wanna use it like that asshole on the picture the op posted, just to parry.
You don't use a longsword as a defensive weapon. Even if it has a blunt part.
If I carry a sword I at least also carry a shield and if that is broken I run away or use it in both hand.
Japs can't understand swords at all. Their usual katanas were only usable against non-armoured targets since the sword was basically useless against metal armour. I'm not sure about their piercing power but it certainly wasn't as good as european swords.
I'd a Warhammer Fantasy anime with Carroburg Greatswords doing badass things with their Zweihanders.
Heavy, blunt weapons are better used in medieval warfare where everyone has plate armor. You're not gonna get a good slash/stab on someone unless you aim for the joints.
Knightswords are made heavier than katanas to smash opponents more than cut them.
>I agree that using it solely for defense isn't a good idea, but it's not that terrible.
It is not a good idea for defense and it's a terrible idea of using it for defense pointy side down in the off hand.
Try it. As long you don't block a weapon directly with the edge of your sword (which is the best way to ruin it), you have not much strengh to parry.
I am not sure if we already had a thread about duelwielding in /a/
>I never said anything about reverse grip or offhand.
But isn't this the whole purbose of this thread?
> I said it's a surprisingly good defensive tool, if the Strong is blunt.
But again, why would you use a longsword for it if only a part of it is usefull and the rest just slowes you down?
>But isn't this the whole purbose of this thread?
But not with what I'm talking about.
>But again, why would you use a longsword for it if only a part of it is usefull and the rest just slowes you down?
What? The Strong is useless anyhow, there's no reason to sharpen it whatsoever. Sure, you could do drag-cuts with slightly more of the blade, but it's not that big a difference.
I'd use a longsword because a it's a jack-of-all-trades weapon with which I could adapt to many situations and adversaries, especially with the added defensive value if I can parry with it with some peace of mind.
>Knightswords are made heavier than katanas to smash opponents
1. They are about the same weight.
2. If you start smashing with your knight's sword against something hard, the blade will chip, dent, bend and break pretty quickly.
Yes, even with swords forged by talented blacksmiths. Real war swords aren't as strong or as heavy as re-enactment swords used for movies.
1 = blade
2 = blunt
A = unarmored
B = armored
1+A on head = beheading
1+B on head = concussion, but not death (you get a free fatality out of it though).
2+A on head = pink mist
2+B on head = broken head
Yeah, a lucky shot on the head kills really fast. Who would have thought? However, fighting unarmored opponents with blunt weapons, you're forced to do internal damage through bleeding etc, whereas bladed weapons can sever limbs, which is much faster.
Which is my point.
Not necessarily beheading, but I dare you to find someone who can live through a sword/axe slash to the face done with the intent to kill.
Whether the head gets cleanly separated from the body is mostly irrelevant when most of your face comes off.
Longswords and katanas are nothing when compared to the mighty Ulfberht.
>Blade on armored head = concussion, but not death
>you get a free fatality out of it
What? I think the most likely outcome with your average one handed sword is that the victim taken back for a second by the force of the blow and your sword's blade has an ugly fold or dent at where it hit.
If the helmet is worth a damn, it should protect its wearer fairly well from such a glancing hit.
Even if it's forged to the best sturdiness of what blacksmith can offer to make, at the end of the day it's still just a sword and a breakable piece of metal.
Not to mention the other swords had equally skilled makers on them as well throughout the Europe.
That doctor should have moved from the centerline of his opponent's attack.
He handled it upfront with unsightly brute force and with the help of the clumsiness/lack of resistance by his attackers. The doctor would have been manhandled in a real situation.
Then again that is just cheap animation.
Fine, but still equally useless for fighting when it gets to that point in the middle of fighting.
You can try to bend the blade back (assuming it didn't just flex and return by itself), but the damage is still done and it starts to get risky to keep using such a damaged weapon.
I thought they hold it like that to keep the weight near the center of the body to make it easier to move around, rather than having the weight dangling by your hand or the side of your waist
It was more like deflecting and countering than truly redirecting the most of the force against the opponent.
Better than blocking, but it could have been more fluid and efficient.
Why don't you just dual wield shields? Double the defence
It's acceptable only immediately after your unsheeth your blade.
If your sword is on the right side of your waste then you can unsheeth it with your right hand pulling the sword out in front of you to create some kind of defensive barrier between you and your opponent. At that point you would want to back up and get a proper grip on the sword.
The fact of the matter is that holding a sword like that fucks up speed, range, and balance.
Well, kind off. For the first guard, he could have dodged to the left, rather than using the hand, and then make him slide but then he wouldn't have as good a footing. For the second guard he was a bit forceful, with the palm uppercut but he was fast enough to not give him time to get away or even think.
Defense is not a stat IRL.
Shields are tiresome and cumbersome, but really efficient at bashing.
You don't get the same reach with a shield as you do with a morgenstern, a sword or a spear.
What with the back against the wall? The corridor is not that big. He was perfectly smooth with the first guard, it's the second you could argue, at least from my perspective.
Just a little sidestep would make it easier, rather than betting it all only on smashing the opponent's hand to the side to redirect him.
It happens in the last few episodes (episode 48?), so it's part of the finale.
Either the spear or whatever "swordspam" counts as.