Are mages in Nasuverse completely retarded or something? How the fuck is making portals low level? How is making copies of shit low level magic?
>Not sure if bait
This is an alternate universe, she's a high-class homunculus made by that universe's equivalent of Zelretch, and she's a better magus than 99% of those featured in the Nasuverse. Including Barthomeloi.
>Low level != everyone can do it
>Magecraft level != combat potential
>Magecraft level == complexity/how closely it replicates a miracle
>Projection is low level because projections don't last long enough to be practical
Does that clear things up?
to be fair, as of the third part, shits actually gotten real to the point where its a worthy part of the TM franchise, its like how in HF where you have to suffer through piles of faggotry in order to get to some of the good parts, but its important to watch for various reasons.
She's right in that their power is very simple, even though it's effectively Second Magic
But like Touhou, a very simple ability + shitloads of power = game-breaking feats
The art has gotten much better since the start of the series, and closer to the official character art
It's just in the latest chapters but Kuro at least looks a lot taller now.
Wasn't Tokiomi an example of the "average" mage in Fate?
Fast wheels was above average until PROPER MAGE DUEL with Kerry
Rin was 1 in 100
Kerry was shoot em up
Bazette is I CAST FIST
Kirei was a shit mage
Waver was a student, until after the 4th HGW
>Wasn't Tokiomi an example of the "average" mage in Fate?
Tokiomi wasn't nowhere near as assholish as your average mage despite what Kariyafags may tell you.
And his power level was below average.
Rin has the potential to reach the top 100 in the entire history of the Clocktower.
>Kirei was a shit mage
Im fucking plying, he literally went out and mastered different schools of magic only to drop them right before then end and move on to something else, he may not be the best but he's at least better than an "average" mage like Tokiomi or Fast Wheels
>Are mages in Nasuverse completely retarded or something?
Yes that's actually something that isn't really said out loud, but implied heavily when looking after every mage we've seen so far
So far, the only top tier smart ass motherfucker has been Zelretch.
How strong is Bazett in F/HA, compared to Prisma?
>Kirei was a shit mage
What this anon said >>117089372
Fucker was gifted, if not hardworking, he just couldn't get any enjoyment of what he was doing and ended up being an priest.
>Calling him his real name when nobody knows who his parents were
Given the similarities, he's probably
Uryu Ryounosuke's cousin, son of his sister at whose home he found the text on the Holy Grail War.
In F/HA she jobs to every Servant countless times before she time loops enough to figure out how to beat them.
In Prisma she just rekts everyone and everything right off the bat, including ripping Gilgamesh's heart out, though some may argue that Servants have been massively nerfed in Prisma.
I wrote that before I remembered she was the only family member left.
But considering how rare red hair is naturally, and his preponderance of magic circuits, its the most likely explanation.
If Miyu was there, she'll be just a toddler at the time of the fire happened, most likely dead because of the fire.
It's still a mystery how the hell Kerry managed to snag Shirou in Prisma.
There's a lot more different in Prisma than just "Kerry and Iri slapped the Einzbern's shit"
Consider that Illya actually looks her real age and Shirou, Rin and everyone else are the ages they would be in F/SN
Even the rules of magecraft seem different considering how often Divine Constructs get thrown around
Remember that there hasn't been a Holy Grail War yet in either the main Prismaverse or the Miyuverse. Ilya (well, Irisveil) and Miyu are both the first of their kind.
That said my headcanon will remain that Kiritsugu taught Miyu's Shirou how to fight and do magic then died a hero's death protecting his daughter from the Ainsworths
inb4 some kind of 5th Grail war happened, but senpai choose the imouto. Incest is bad, can't have senpai committing it.
HGW happened in Miyu's world, Julian announced it's the 6th what they are currently doing.
Then that does open up the possibility of Miyu being a consequence of the 4th grail. The timing matches and it would explain her being a natural born grail that Kerry got his hands on.
Have to wonder how far apart the 5th and Julian's grail war happened though.
>If Miyu was there, she'll be just a toddler at the time of the fire happened, most likely dead because of the fire.
She'd be an infant.
Fire happened 10 years ago. Miyu is 10 at the start of Prisma Illya which takes place at the same time as Fate timeline-wise, roughly.
>Ilya (well, Irisveil) and Miyu are both the first of their kind.
What is Iri the first of? Are Illya and Iri even homunculi in the Prismaverse? I don't remember any statements saying that they were. Just that Illya was manipulated and magically adjusted to eventually become the grail, and Miyu was born a natural grail.
I think the Prisma-Einzberns are just pale white humans. They just look like their Zero/SN counterparts because *references*.
In Illya's world there was no First, Second or Third Holy Grail Wars. The Einzberns had just developed the ritual, without any outside help (which is why Tohsaka knows nothing about it), but Kiritsugu and Irisveil decided they value their daughter having a normal life and a chance to be happy over the thousand-year ambition of the Einzberns to restore the Third Magic, so they killed them all.
The Ainsworths created their ritual specifically for Miyu, so no HGW seems to be the implication
>HGW happened in Miyu's world, Julian announced it's the 6th what they are currently doing.
When was that?
Or if we're going full Heaven's Feel parallel, the Ainsworths have been 'using' her for a long time
>I think the Prisma-Einzberns are just pale white humans. They just look like their Zero/SN counterparts because *references*.
Aren't all Einzberns like that regardless of whether they were homunculus or not?
My hypothesis is that Miyu and Shiro were both tricked by the Ainsworth into cooperation.
>We've finially found the grail!
>Lets save the world together!
Then when the first ritual was performed, the first card was Archer because Miyu's relation with Shirou made it easier to summon that specific card. Heros are summoned through what ties them to this world. At this point Shirou was having second thoughts because of the pain Miyu was sufferng blah blah blah somehow Elizabeth is tied into this yaddy yadda yadda etc. Eventually Shirou puts the Archer card into himself. Became literally archer, experience his own life, become his own hero. Because of his relation to the card, the card awakened his reality marbel and that is how Miyu's Shirou learned magic.
Sure, but my point was more towards those who try to reconcile the Prismaverse with the Z/SNverse. Those that think that Illya is actually 18, or that F/KL branches off from F/Z (Kerry making an alternate choice), or "How can Prisma-Shirou still be adopted by Kerry if there's no fire?"
The answer to that last question is: crackhead mom, orphanage. Who cares, not like Hiroyama's going to go into his backstory anytime soon.
See this is what I don't get in the least.
Why does Bazett fight servants directly, instead of having them fight eachother and then sniping them off with Fragarach whenever they're forced to use their NP?
Fragarach is potentially the single most broken thing a master could ever have in their arsenal.
She's just looking down on Ilya by blatantly proclaiming that she's superior to her in every way and that this is "basic" to her.
She's just being a dick.
Also, this is a retarded universe where Shirou is able to recreate divine weapons. Expect nothing to make sense.
>Pulling out the Moon Cell's core
Yeah, no, that's retarded. Fuck your bullshit.
In her Gil-mode she innately has the ability to stick her body parts and treasures into a pocketspace vault and then retrieve it from that vault anywhere she wants. Since Gilgamesh is an Archer and not Caster, it should be pretty basic, like EMIYA's tracing.
It was always backed by TM. You couldn't publish this in a magazine like Comp Ace without the original creator's official approval.
Ilya's/Sella's/Liz's designs came out of that Type-Moon character supplemental design book.
The artist just got better, I guess.
But he can't.
That's where Excalibur Image comes in. Excalibur Image is already a degraded Excalibur that only holds a "fragment" of the original's power. And that's only possible within the Moon Cell, where the quality of wrought iron is higher than under normal circumstances.
Even if the Einzworths have the Moon Cell's Core (which is, again, bullshit), they're still on Earth. The physical Earth (unless it all turns out they're in the Digital World or something). Shirou should not be capable of creating divine weapons.
to be fair shirou did make caliburn, which though degraded as shit is still excaliber and thats typically considered a divine construct,
so there actually is precedent.
The mooncell thing i'll agree is retarded as almighty shit, because how in the everflying fuck did they even jack the god damn thing?
Also expecting at this point that amnesia girl Tanaka to be definite Counter guardian.
>But he can't.
But he can. See HF normal.
Archer can project a Excalipoor under regular circumstances. He can project the real thing in the Moon Cell.
And seeing how they just pulled out the Moon Cell in Prisma all bets are off.
>to be fair shirou did make caliburn, which though degraded as shit is still excaliber and thats typically considered a divine construct,
Caliburn and Excalibur are two different swords in the Fate rendition of King Arthur's tale. Caliburn is man-made while Excalibur is super special snowflake fairymade shit not recreatable by man.
HF Normal only had him image a fuzzy Blackcalibur. We don't actually know if he succeeds or not. It's more likely that his body automatically drew the next best thing, something that wasn't Excalibur but could still shoot beam. Shirou wouldn't even have the prana capacity to shoot an Excaliblast in the first place.
Nasu's very clear about this. In fact, it's one of the few things he's very adamant about. He has insisted on no less than three occasions that Shirou cannot recreate Excalibur or other divine weapons.
Dude drew a lot of Fate comedy doujins, but from what I can gather off updates, nothing explicitly Prisma Ilya. Maybe there's a one-off pic in them somewhere? But it's not like he was making his own volumes at Comiket before Nasu took notice.
If anyone knows more about Hiroyama's career, feel free to chime in.
Most likely Miyu's Shirou is similar to HF's Shirou.
They didn't create numerous weapon and throw it around like UBW's Shirou and archer, instead they replicating it completely. They choose one over many and they reality marble / inner world changed.
>HF Normal only had him image a fuzzy Blackcalibur. We don't actually know if he succeeds or not. It's more likely that his body automatically drew the next best thing, something that wasn't Excalibur but could still shoot beam. Shirou wouldn't even have the prana capacity to shoot an Excaliblast in the first place.
Hence why I called it Excalipoor and not Excalibur. You're missing the point here. The other anon speculated that Miyu Shirou creates non-divine shoddy knockoffs of divine weapons like HF Shirou did with Excalibur. Nowhere is anybody implying that regular Shirou can shit out real divine weapons.
>They didn't create numerous weapon and throw it around like UBW's Shirou and archer, instead they replicating it completely. They choose one over many and they reality marble / inner world changed.
Did you SEE the number of K&B's Shirou and Kuro threw at Angelica? They burned through well over a dozen in under several seconds.
Hiroyama made doujins, got hired by Type-Moon to draw some stuff for Hollow, is now a freelancer who's contracted with Type-Moon to make Prisma.
Prisma was never doujin. He was hired specifically to make it.
Are Nasuverse mages retarded? Not in terms of magic since they can be OP as fuck (magic in Nasuverse is all about making the impossible possible), but most of them are dicks and assholes...or slightly above half of them.
Excalibur Image is already Excalipoor.
The only reason Archer's even allowed to have Excalibur Image in Moon Cell in the first place is because the animation was already made and he felt it would be a shame not to use it.
Again, Nasu's made his stance on this very, very clear.
>Shirou and Kuro
This is sort of a cute contrast between names now that I think about it.
Damn shame the final strike against Angelica wasn't Kuro wielding Kansho and Shirou wielding Byakuya for appropriate color motifs.
>Excalibur Image is already Excalipoor.
I sensibly chuckled.
>Did you SEE the number of K&B's Shirou and Kuro threw at Angelica? They burned through well over a dozen in under several seconds.
That's crane wing three realm, 2 pairs of K&B.
Now start count how many sword EMIYA and UBW Shirou throw. K&B is inseparable pair of sword, he just project multiple of them. He only project ONE KIND sword and project it completely.
Mages are stated to be rather inhuman right from the start, if you actually read anything about the setting. They are basically taught that they should do anything they can to advance magical studies, as long as it doesn't reveal their mysteries to the general populace too much. The only problem a mage would actually have with what Uryu was doing, for example, was that he wasn't at all subtle about it and everybody in the city knew shit was up. That he wasn't really doing it for the sake of magecraft might also bother them a bit, but frankly as long as wasn't making such a big damn spectacle of things they wouldn't have cared.
Speaking of gruesome serial killings in the name of magery, why is there no necromancy in the TMverse?
I guess Heroic Spirits technically count, but they're a bit outside the real of normal magecraft.
I know, but I might mistaken how it works. I'm aware I'm not smart and spare your time if you plan to insult my intelligence.
All I know is his projection derived from his reality marble. HF Shirou and Miyu's Shirou choose one over many so their inner world / reality marble changed. Same method of projection but different result.
Now show me your genius brain and teach my stupid self.
Necromancy's a shitty, useless ability whose use would attract too much attention.
What possible use could a modern magus have for manipulating corpses? That's Dead Apostle territory.
>What possible use could a modern magus have for manipulating corpse
Humanoid familiars are much more useful assistants than animal familiars even if they're completely devoid of intelligence and ability to cast magecraft.
Indeed. Mages in the Nasuverse are cosmic dicks that think they can do stuff as long as they aren't exposed.
Biggest problem when one such retard will create something that will cause a Counter Guardian to take actions.
Seriously, advancing one's magecraft is one thing. Doing something stupid to make a Counter Guardian take action is another. Seriously, they aren't imaginative on what their decisions could possibly do.
>What possible use could a modern magus have for manipulating corpses?
>He still hasn't read Apocripha
>He doesn't know about homing zombie fingers bullets of doom and exploding heartgrenades
HF Shirou projected Berserker's axe-sword, Rho Aias, Rule Breaker, and not-Excalibur.
Miyu Shirou projected Ig Alima, Berserker's axe-sword, and Kanshou and Byakuya. And also did pic related.
That's hardly "one kind of sword". In conclusion, you're retarded.
Shirou's Gradation Air is just an extension of his Reality Marble.
When Shirou sees a sword, it's automatically recorded into Unlimited Blade Works. He analyzes it perfectly and stores it within himself.
When he uses Gradation Air to create a sword, he's basically taking a weapon that's already been stored within himself and "projecting" it onto reality. In other words, if a weapon is stored within Unlimited Blade Works and he has the prana for it, he can bring it out perfectly.
However, there's a limit to this. All weapons recreated by Unlimited Blade Works will be inferior by one rank. So if a weapon was originally B-rank, Shirou's recreation of it will be C-rank. There is only one exception to this, though that's irrelevant to the current topic.
According to Nasu, divine-forged weapons like Excalibur and Ea cannot be replicated under normal circumstances. It's possible to recreate them in the Moon Cell, where the quality of wrought iron is much higher than on Earth, but even then, the projected weapon will be considerably degraded compared to the original. Archer, for instance, is able to forge Excalibur Image: The Ever-Distant Golden Sword, which can only display a "mere fragment" of the power of the original holy sword Excalibur: The Sword of Promised Victory. Outside of the Moon Cell, he can't even manage that.
This is the limit of Emiya Shirou's abilities.
Yeah, it exists but it seems to have relatively low representation overall.
Necromancy has more uses than just animating corpses. In most iterations and lore Necromancy has focus on the major goals of personal immortality and the perfect revival of the dead, depending on how spirits or what have you are handled you also have utility usage such as extracting information from those passed.
Also zombies/skeletons themselves can actually be pretty damn good servants when they're not arbitrarily limited to slow, shambling half-rotted corpses.
Rendered meaningless by Dead Apostles. It's a form of pseudo-immortality, but it's pretty much the best anyone can do in the modern age.
>perfect revival of the dead
Impossible, even with True Magic.
Necromancy's lame in the NAsuverse.
Projection is low level because it uses a fuck tonne of power compared to the end result and require insane concentration and attention to detail and even then it's very limited in scope and lasting power.
That displacement magic is fucking weird though.
Yeah he can.
>What's more weird is Ainsworth pulling True Magics out of their ass one after another.
Kuro can teleport like it's going out of style. Everyone and their mother can do True Magic in Prisma.
>Shirou thinking he can =! he can
He could easily think the blackalibur he summons is actually Excalibur, not to mention you have to keep in mind Shirou was literally brain damaged at this time
Archer lied. He can't recreate Excalibur and he doesn't have the capacity to use an Excaliblast either.
Shirou thinks he can. He's overestimating himself.
He imagined a fuzzed out sword. There's no guarantee that he actually managed to recreate that sword because the narrative doesn't state that he does.
Fate/complete material II: Character material - Weapons: Black Excalibur, p.121
English | Japanese
Excalibur’s appearance after being corrupted by evil. Excalibur functions by converting its user’s magical energy into offensive power. Because of this nature as a “sword that amplifies”, when Saber was blackened, Excalibur blackened with her.
In Arthurian legend, King Arthur received Excalibur from Vivian, a fairy of the lake. Just as the fairy Vivian who embodied goodness had her polar opposite in the evil Morgan, so too does Excalibur have the possibility of embodying both good and evil. However, whether Excalibur is filled with good or stained by evil, the fact that it is the strongest holy sword does not change.
>Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.
>In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior.
>Okay truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way.
>Well it is new animation after all and there's no reason to reject it. So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay.
That's irrelevant. Not even a full-power Archer has the prana capacity to shoot off an Excaliblast. Even if he could recreate Excalibur, he wouldn't be able to show off its full "Anti-Fortress" capabilities.
You guys are stupid
he just missing the divine.dll in his Excalibur.exe
he can run it but it will be glitchy and can't be compared to the real deal, but it is strong enough to probably kill a servant
>Narrative never shows him doing it
I don't care. Think what you want.
I'll still continue to maintain that he can't do it citing those sources. If you have a problem with that, it's not really my concern from here on it.
>The night he was summoned (after Rin went to sleep), he assessed the present situation, figured out his circumstances, and concluded that the opportunity to complete his objective had at long last appeared.
>Tells Rin outright that he remembers nothing the next day
Nope. He's a full-blown liar. Next you'll tell me Kotomine doesn't lie either.
Just chalk it up to Nasu retcon. Almost everything in Type-Moon has been retconned at one point or another.
For all intents and purposes all Type-Moon works in the future will work off of the assumption that Shirou can't project divine constructs... unless Nasu thinks of a cool scene where he does in which case he'll retcon himself again, like he very nearly did so for Excalibur Image.
>For all intents and purposes all Type-Moon works in the future will work off of the assumption that Shirou can't project divine constructs...
Which brings us back to Prisma Ilya, in which everyone seems to project divine constructs just fine.
>Archer doesn't lie
And yeah, this is totally some other sword that is the strongest NP Shirou knows.
Everything Nasu says outside of his writing can be disregarded.
He said CCC was his last Fate work, only back down from that in less than half a year.
In and interview he admits to being a compulsive liar:
>His biggest lie in recent years was "The opening theme of 「Infinite RYVIUS」 was sung by Koyanagi Yuki."
>In his teens, he even said "I'm an alien from planet liar, so I have to lie at least once a day or I'll die."
>...we wish he'd just go back home.
>Rin directly asks if he remembers who he is yet
>Archer shakes his head "no".
That's not a half-truth. He directly denied that he doesn't recall his identity, despite the fact that he recalled it the night he was summoned.
Nothing compared to Faker and Original hatesex.
>Q: Are the three routes of "Fate/stay night" parallel worlds existing at the same time? I was curious since I was how it would look to Zelretch.
>A: They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true, and my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true.
You lost your mind. Miyu's Shirou didn't project multiple sword to throw them around like an archer. They project sword to use it like a sword, not to throw it around. They didn't project different sword SIMULTANEOUSLY.
I'm retarded? Okay. Which means you are brain dead.
yeah he is, between that and nasu actually acknowledging it as an actual TM work, its probably one of the most canon things, which is hilarious because it infuriates a hell of alot of people.
Nasu is the one that goes into talking about how he may be a family man on the surface, but first and foremost he is a mage in a sense. His personality is the classic Nasu magus who can turn his heart cold without hesitation and make whatever decision a proper magus would pick, which Rin could never do. Rin or people that wished to believe the best in him never understood such a simple thing.
>10 years ago, Rin’s understanding of the Holy Grail War was about equal to that of Shirou’s during the Fifth War. That is, it seemed like she understood but she really did not.
>In the eyes of young Rin, her father Tokiomi was a great magus who must be respected and loved, but as for the coldheartedness that accompanied the ideal, that was a negative aspect of his personality that she failed to understand.
If Tokiomi had survived until the time when Rin could have really understood her father’s personality, it would certainly have deeply affected the development of her own personality. Whether she would oppose that inhumanity and leave the path of thaumaturgy, or whether she would become a “perfect and coldhearted” witch like her father – no matter which one, this parallel world, for Rin, would certainly be one far away from happiness.
More like Zelretch observes and realizes "possibilities".
All the ends in Fate are "possibilities". The one you, the player, reach and prefer as "true" is the "true route".
Zelretch can access "possibilities" and make them "real", thus turning them into parallel realities. Not all ends are canon, but Zelretch can make them real if he observes them. So every time Zelretch observes a possibility, he's creating a new parallel reality.
Are you guys honestly saying that if you respond to a question by shaking your head, you're not indicating a negative?
This isn't even a lack of ability to read context clues, this is straight up not knowing what shaking your head means.
You'll just get responses like ">implying she wasn't always an evil cunt" with a question like that, you know where you are.
The answer is obvious enough; not that we even know this is Sakura, but chances are the Ainsworth are the ones that took adopted her in this world-line, and she serves as a pawn just the same as Angelica and Beatrice. Just another trained guard dog, due to her rare element she was taken in as an interesting prospect, or maybe just due to fate.
The out of story answer is easy; it's because Drei world is the only chance we'll get to see the magus side on certain characters, by creating an alternate world version of them. Shirou and Sakura are normal in the other world so they can't know about magic, Rin is the same as ever so we don't really need to explore the other side of her since she's both sides already in Prism world, but if we want to explore magus Shirou and magus Sakura then we have to use this as the one chance.
>nasu acknowledges it
>in addition it fulfills all the requirements of being a legitimate parallel reality
>Still for some fucked reason denying it
I'm assuming you believe that Fate/zero isn't canon as well, which has perhaps less validity then Prisma illya, which in fact means you are full of shit.
>Nasu creates an easy and agreeable system where everything is canon so as to not make it feel like the thing you like the most "doesn't count"
>Autists still fling shit over which is the "canonest"
You don't shake your head when you're confused retard and even if he was indicating confusion that's still a negative, when he's not confused and understood the question perfectly fine
Its not even that, theres a setup specifically for whats canon and whats not, something Fulfills it and theres one idiot screaming his ass off because hes mad as shit somethings canon that he dislike.
its literally a case of "Stop liking what i don't like, this shit didn't happen because i believe so."
But it doesn't matter.
>At the instant Rin introduced herself, Archer believed the girl who summoned him was "Tohsaka Rin" (not due to his memory being confused, but the name Tohsaka Rin being worn off).
>At that moment, Archer recalled like a jolt of lightning:
>"-------Rin. Ah, that's the name------"
In the VN Rin asks that question BEFORE she introduces herself.
HE DOESN'T REMEMBER.
He didn't lie!
Okay so now we've gone from only stuff written by Nasu counting, to stuff "supervised" by him as well.
Why are you so against Prisma being canon? Even as just a far flung parallel world?
You guys have it completely wrong.
Kirei is not talented, but excelled anyways because he'd work with utter dedication, until he reached the point where he'd realize it wasn't working out for him and just drop it.
Even then, he's a crappy mage, because circuits-wise he's pretty crappy. Most of his abilities are physical or church-based. Sacraments are not the same as spells.
Holy shit anon, stop being purposely retarded.
Nasu acknowledges it as stuff that happened and is part of that multiverse, in addition if fits the entirety of what is required for it to be considered part of the franchise.
Just because you dislike it does not change canonicity, no matter how retarded things seem.
Here's the exact order of events.
>Archer is summoned
>Rin goes to bed, leaving Archer to clean up the mess caused by his summoning
>Archer remembers who he is and what he wants to do. What he doesn't remember is Rin's name.
>Rin asks if Archer remembers who he is
>Archer shakes his head "no"
>Archer then states that she should introduce herself
>She does so, and that's when he finally remembers her name
So your argument is entirely irrelevant. The question Rin asks that Archer responds negatively to is "Do you remember your identity?", not "Do you know my name?".
>They're parallel... sort of. But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true, and my feelings on the matter is that I'd rather two routes disappear if one was true.
>If all of these became possible at the same time, the other routes would become meaningless.
It's made clear that the Ainsworth are extremely specialized in their magecraft, so I'm pretty sure that they're utilizing it in ways other magi didn't even know could be done. The same goes for Shirou and his tracing.
What so any Joe Shmoe mage could master all the different schools of magic just so long as he worked hard? I somehow doubt that anon since you know Kerry was listing the fact that he learned several different schools of magic easily as something to look out for, and kayneth learned all of what, two? If it was so easy to do so why the heck wouldn't everyone else so them? His magic circuits is valid though but I didn't bring that up and it doesn't seem to matter to Kirei's magic abilities minus when he summons a servant and it has shit stats.
Hilariously thers still one asshole in the thread arguing prisma isn't canon, so according to this particular guy he probably believes only heavens feel is canon, and thus is definitely a wormslutfag.
Archer really doesn't remember a lot of shit any more.
Think more closely about it. If Shirou follows the Heaven's Feel route and creates the jewel sword, Rin will use it and this will be the catalyst for Zelretch visiting that particular world. However, if Shirou DOESN'T create the jewel sword, then Zelretch won't come.
Basically, Nasu's saying that the only one who has any real say over what's canon and what isn't is the player. If the player chooses to deny the Heaven's Feel route, for instance, then that route isn't "true".
In the Nasuverse, Zelretch's Kaleidoscope is only secondary to the player's own decisions. You decide what's true and what isn't, and you can even supercede Zelretch by eliminating the reasons he would have for visiting that particular reality as well.
Is this a fucking joke?
The Tohsaka clan is a fucking prodigy. They've done through accumulated research in 7 generations what Zelretch thought would take centuries. That's not just because of Rin's contributions either. Tokiomi was not average.
The burden of proof remains on you. Can you produce factual evidence that nasu has said prisma is canon?
Until that time, everything you say is about as believable as a tabloid.
Tokiomi's father was baller.
He didn't have half of the shit Rin and Tokiomi had, mostly just the Tohsaka style martial art and the philosophy of "martial arts is a path to the root!" and he managed to NTR one of the Edelfelt sisters to marry him.
Assuming Kuro's Shirou's ability is on par with that of Archer's (which is probably the case given that he's apparently able to set up Unlimited Blade Works on his own), then the quality of his projections shouldn't rise or fall depending on how many he's projecting at once.
No, he can't. He specifically CAN'T use Caliburn. He's shit with it. The damn thing nearly tears his arms off when it forces him to mimic the user's skill.
The thing only works properly when Saber's holding it. Shirou can't handle Caliburn.
>someone asks you a yes or no question
>the answer is yes
>you respond by shaking your head
>LMAO WHAT KIND OF RETARD THINKS I WAS LYING
I'm just going to assume you're trolling, if only because I don't want to live in a world that has someone this dumb in it.
>>>"Hey anon do you think this river is safe to swim in?"
>you respond by nodding your head to the rhythm of you duping someone
>this is in no way lying to the mind of Spergicus
There's a difference between dying from using something and not being able to use it in the first place. Caliburn didn't touch his own mana at all, it just fucked up his body. The act of actually tracing it was just as hard on his prana as tracing any other weapon without GARm; the important note is that Caliburn was traced with its mana charge present, which is how its NP work.
Shirou can trace mana. Discuss.
That wasn't his father, but his father's father if I recall, or Father's Father's Father.
The one who started the ritual alongside Zouken anyway, and was trusted with the Jewled Dagger diagram despite Zelretch saying he had no chance of completing it.
The one who married the Edelfelt was someone a lot younger.
The ironic thing is Shirou and Sakura don't consider themselves magi in the usual magi type of mentality. They have a conversation with Caster in Hollow about separating their magus side and human side, and both just consider themselves people who use magecraft, and see no reason to separate the two personae. It's a really interesting conversation and shows how alike they are in a way. So technically, a Sakura and Shirou should be the same acting like magi, or living as regular people.
>Yes it was.
Read up on shit better. Nagato Tohsaka, which is the Tohsaka who believed in martial arts being the path to the root was the original Tohsaka head, not the one from the third war. He was not the one that married an Edelfelt, he was the one from the first Holy Grail war.
>Nagato Tohsaka [Person's name]
>The head of the Tohsaka line back some 200 years ago when the Heaven's Feel ritual began.
>At the request of Justeaze and Makiri Zolgen (Matou Zouken), he took part in the ritual.
>He was really a secret follower of a certain foreign faith, but one day, a strange old fart showed up and led him astray. And so, from that time on, he became devoted to the world of thaumaturgy.
>So as a result, the Tohsaka line has some influence in the Church and has gotten some pretty fine treatment in the Association. The reason the family's managing Fuyuki is because they have pipelines with both organizations.
>Nagato saw both thaumaturgy and the martial arts as being equal. As such he had the idea of grasping Akasha by passing through the state of nothingness (from bujutsu). Which would be the point recruited by the Einzberns and Machiri.
>Just by being Rin's ancestor, he's quite the goof-up (it must be the genes). Nagato was also the least promising of Zelretch's apprentices. Apparently, the magus potential was really in his daughter. She was also more helpful in the construction of the Greater Grail it seems.
Imagine Shirou from F/SN, but cut in half between his SOL side and his battle shounen side. One side went to Prism world where he lives normally, and the other side went to Drei world where he's Mr.UBW.
Cut Sakura in half in the same way, one side is the normal girl side, and the other is the messed up darker half.
Normal universe they are just magic users rather than Magus, but here it's like the sides are cut in half.
>I wasn't saying it was Nagato in the third war, If I was, I'd use his name.
You said "Didn't have half the potential of Rin, only had martial arts, and the philosophy of martial arts reaching the root".
That applies to Nagato, but not really the 3rd war Tohsaka head any more than it would to Rin. If you asked Rin if martial arts could reach the root she'd think you were crazy. That was Nagato's ideal but not necessarily shared with his entire family.
What we do know about the 3rd war Tohsaka head is... that he married an Edelfelt and he was around during WW2. Pretty much just that, but not really his abilities or ideals. We don't even know whether he fought with or against the Nazi's.
I guess that makes you the autistic one, then. Non-verbal answers are something only children or someone guilty does. You're being so autistic over vaguely defined physical gestures that we're not even talking about Archer anymore.
If Archer is a liar why didn't he just say "No" directly? Why doesn't he give non-verbal answers in other situations if he's the type that does it normally? When else has he ever "lied"? Why didn't he wave his hand instead, them being japanese?
>Non-verbal answers are something only children or someone guilty does.
Holy shit, how little are you in contact with people that you think this is true?
And even if that WAS true, he clearly shook his head in response to a question, which with your warped worldview implies he was guiltily answering negative.
But holy shit anon this is all kinds of fucked up for you.
Shaking the head is not a real answer by any stretch of the imagination.
You've literally never been outside if you think that there's much or any weight to the answer of someone who can't answer a question by speaking.
HF Shirou never materialized his full reality marble (couldn't due to arm interference), and we don't know what the physical capabilities of his new body are, except that he lost any benefits the arm gave him.
>Shaking the head is not a real answer by any stretch of the imagination.
Also, we are talking of Japan, they country of "saying no is uneducated and unrefined so better make a cross with the hands or shake the head".
You obviously have never talked to anyone if you think shaking the head or nodding it isnt an answer, just because it's commonly followed by a "nah" doesn't make it neccesary, Jesus Christ anon, I'm sorry I'm even bugging you about this at this point
Given that they start syncing up and exchanging Tracing and Combat experience the moment they meet, it comes down to physical ability.
Iirc the puppet body is supposed to be better.
It wasn't Excalibur, kinoko addressed this. It was either a different sword with comparable performance or a poor knockoff with nonreplicable components replaced with inferior substitutes.
- Can trace Excalibur, Kanshou and Byakuya, Rule Breaker, the Dagger of Azoth (sp?), and do Nine Lives Blade Works
- Pretty much infinite mana from Sakura
- Probably slightly weaker than his human body thanks to being a puppet,
- Dozens of NPs and other treasures from Gil fight
- Can utilize his Reality Marble
- Is limited to his own mana reserves
- Has been trained by Rin after the Grail War ends, probably much better at general mage stuff than HF would be
Second they meetup they start downloading abilities and memories from eachother, so I'd give it to HF Shirou because of the fact he can fire off multiple Excaliblasts thanks to Sakura
Like most gay people, he is.
Also is written by a huge faggot, Nasu, that was born in Japan and raised in their customs, you know it right?
Maybe in your 3rd world country, you savages, use other customs.
>He could easily think the blackalibur he summons is actually Excalibur,
That isn't how projection by Shirou works. If the reality of what he projects does not match his mental image, the discrepancy causes the image to break down and the projection vanishes.
It's explained in UBW. The swords he projected to fight Kuzuki didn't vanish just because Kuzuki broke them, they vanished because once they broke they no longer matched his mental image of "the finest swords that will never break" and that caused the illusion to collapse and the swords disappeared. By nature, Shirou cannot project something other than what he intends.
God himself has admitted he frequently lies about shit and gets shit wrong, the only thing we can trust as 'canon' are the canon works in the Nasuverse - what Nasu himself says comes second, and then non canon spinoffs come third.
>a Japanese persons culture says they should non-verbally shake their head instead of saying "no"
>not at all relevant to you saying that shaking your head doesn't mean no and if you don't vocalize the "no" it doesn't count
>ignoring the entire thread calling you out for not understanding social cues and communication by attacking one post that adds cultural context and then accusing others of diverging from the point
We crown you king autist, long and awkward may you reign.
The black excalibur is still excalibur. It turns into a demon sword from the corruption but it's still made of divine materials which is the main reason for him "not" being able to trace it. If he could trace the black one then he can trace the normal version.
I think it'd be really intriguing if Shirou
was related to the Aozaki family, who also have red hair, and whose number of magic circuits are known to have been decreasing over time. Plus, it'd be a further bridge between series.
>Archer shakes his head because he follows cultural norms
>We'll pretend all the times he ignores said cultural norms don't exist because it would detract from my retarded argument that is entirely based on one line of text from the beginning of the VN.
Are you still going on about how you don't fucking understand head shaking and nodding?
Can you please put on a trip?
Not so I can filter you, I just want to search for all your posts on the archive for whenever I feel sad.
Asking retarded questions and making obviously false statements is not making you look any smarter.
Because some autist on /a/ is the authority on the cultural implications and weight of shaking one's head in a completely informal situation in a japanese fantasy eroge.
My god you are a faggot.
Are you still completely disregarding the discussion again?
Can you please stop shitposting?
Not because you're shitting up the thread, I just think it's embarrassing to see you devote so many posts to defending a completely unsubstantiated opinion.
Also you post like a complete faggot. Please kill yourself.
I know that I'm at fault for suggesting that, but when someone don't understand basic non verbal communication and think that he can say shit about it then he really need to go meet some peoples.
>head shaking doesn't mean no
>yes it does
>yes it does
>yes it does
>yes it does
>yes it does, especially given Japan's cultural norms
>STOP TALKING ABOUT JAPAN'S CULTURE THAT'S IRRELEVANT
>tfw Iri and Kerry felt this throbbing before you
UBW not being able to create Excalibur is retarded.
It's shown in every instance of "reel of NP's Shirou knows" and never cause an OH GOD WAT like Ea did. It's A++, what the fuck is the point of UBW being able to replicate A++ when the only A++ swords are both "god forged"?
>Pretty much infinite mana from Sakura
What? They aren't connected like master and servant they must fuck to trade mana like Rin did in UBW.
>HF Shirou because of the fact he can fire off multiple Excaliblasts thanks to Sakura
Did you just read FSN?
Tokiomi is considered painfully average, but he puts in far more effort and puts on the ego like he's a genius while playing it off.
Kariya was someone else who was average or slightly above average, but did nothing to refine himself or really learn the craft. Even with a an exceptional amount of talent for a Matou, which is what being born normal is considered, Zouken made sure to put an end to it.
Rin is top of the line for a magus perhaps, not the very best but she'll one day be the top 100ish. Being near the top 100 doesn't mean she's the most powerful, after all it's not a ranking of power, but a ranking of abilitiy and knowledge in terms of magecraft.
Shirou is far stronger than almost any magus after all, but in terms of ranking on the same scale, he'll never be more than an apprentice magus. He'll do well as a magic user, but never as a magus.
Sakura had the same potential as Rin originally, but a lot of it was shaved away due to Zouken. Currently she's relearning everything from scratch, and if HF Normal is an indicator she'll eventually be good enough to teach magic on her own. She's already the type who puts everything into learning once she's committed, so even if she won't ever match up to Rin in this category since Rin will also keep improving, she'll level up pretty fast all around by any magus standards.
I've ran out of examples to talk about, but they're mostly all strange types anyway. Rin is the more normal Magus of the group, but even she's a bit abnormal.
Saber has potential to be summoned as Caster due to the potential ability to learn magic, but due to her personality and disposition towards mages she feels it's unfitting for her to ever learn. So that path was kind of lost to her at the first step.
Magi are magi because they have circuits. They're a rare mutation which is why magi go through so much trouble to cultivate them in their children.
Hell, didn't Roa comment it was one in a billion to find someone like Ciel?
Lot of times the NP stat doesn't match the NP rank
>yes it does
>yes it does
>yes it does
>yes it does
This is actually pretty accurate, considering you've literally only stated opinion as fact repeatedly the entire discussion.
>yes it does, especially given Japan's cultural norms
According to some guy on /a/, who then gets butthurt and starts shitposting when it's pointed out that the explanation conflicts with Archer's general behavior as a character.
Did you ever stop to think that when there's half a dozen people actively laughing at your perceptions of human contact, you might be wrong?
What will it take for you to admit that shaking your head in response to a question means "no" and that
>Shaking the head is not a real answer by any stretch of the imagination.
>You've literally never been outside if you think that there's much or any weight to the answer of someone who can't answer a question by speaking.
was a retarded post born from an inability to understand people in a general sense.
Amount of power the servant can utilize from the weapon I guess.
If the NP is EX but the stat is A++, then I suppose they can't use it at full power with that master. Can't manifest the full might of it at current.
Sometimes if the master is very compatible, I guess they can also use more than the amount of power allotted for that weapon as well.
Meltlilith and Nursery Rhythm
People say the strangest fucking things
Despite seven servants at current having EX NP stat
>NP stat is: ?
Never mind he has like the lowest stats of any knight class and nearly any servant.