So, /a/, how many secondaries will be complaining about Shirou getting asspull powers out of nowhere when he projects Kanshou and Byakuya next episode?
They're already whining his plot armor and incompetency after all.
To be fair there's hardly been any foreshadowing about his projection ability at all.
>To be fair there's hardly been any foreshadowing about his projection ability at all.
There will be. And this counts.
That's because foreshadowing for projection was revealed in the Fate route. Hence, why you have to play the routes in a specific order, as it is one continuous story where each route builds on the previous one.
Secondaries are always bad. You must complain about them, as it is the chemo to their cancer.
It's too bad that Foolz has lost all archival data from like before 2013.
It would be really interesting to see how much the use of the word "secondary" has gone up over time, especially since before and after the premiere of the F/SN Ufotable adaptation.
>It would be really interesting to see how much the use of the word "secondary" has gone up over time, especially since before and after the premiere of the F/SN Ufotable adaptation.
Before the great /jp/ schism people used to use it all the time thanks to 2hu and Type-Moon.
If anyone new to the Fate franchise who truly has only seen Fate/Zero and is currently watching UBW managed to figure out that Shirou has Avalon from the vague hints that have been dropped here and there I'll be surprised.
Yeah, but I'm still pretty sure that it's gotten a huge boost in numbers in the past 2-3 months.
Is there software out there that can allow us to see trends in words used in a website over time?
Wish it would go away. I don't see the term being used as much as Typemoon fags. I'm sure it's because they feel like they're on a whole other level than the anime fags, but Typemoon shit is pretty much just entry level mediocrity in the world of VNs.
>Fragarach - The Sword of the Gorging War God. Full name - Answerer Fragarach - That Which Comes Later Cuts First, the Sword of the Gorging War God. Sword of Retrograde. The ultimate counter-attack weapon. A conceptual curse that warps destiny. A divine trick that uses time as a weapon. Really the equivalent of a bolt of light when used but the extra effect that it makes is what makes it useful. Warps causality to always strike the opponent right before he unleashes his ultimate attack; even if the attack of the enemy is made first, the fact that it happens is rewritten so that Fragarach hits it before. What Fragarach gorges out isn't the heart of the enemy, but the destiny of both user and enemy simultaneously killing each other. The attack of the enemy that's released is wiped out as it's returned into an attack that "couldn't happen," the law of the world, the absolute system of time. After all, no matter how powerful or fast the attack is, it won't do anything because the enemy that is defeated first won't have a chance to attack.
The Ultimate Noble Phantasm for Shirou to use against Gilgamesh's Ea.
And what's wrong with that? It's a valid complaint. The anime is a standalone product and should properly compensate for the lack of the viewer's knowledge about the Fate route. To the uninitiated Shirou swording out of nowhere will indeed be an asspull.
And to be frank even with after being armed with all knowledge from all three routes and the complete materials it's fair to conclude that Shirou's power progression is poorly written and frustrating to watch. In fact it's even worse after reading the supplementary info and Nasu's interviews due to how much he explicitly goes into detail as to how outmatched Shirou is in the Grail War. Shirou has the opposite problems compared to Shiki, really. Whereas Shiki was a completely flat utterly boring self-insert in Tsukihime that occasionally spouted chuu2 quasi-philosophical bullshit (though let's be honest here. Nobody reads Tsukihime for Shiki's character) and only developed into his own character in the sequels, he's properly armed enough by his bullshit assortment of powers in his backstory that his underdog fights are believable enough and entertaining. Shirou, on the other hand, was written around his character progression, and while it makes him a far better, more fleshed out character than Shiki, his powers were written as a secondary afterthought around his thematic character metaphor of "being a sword". So you get to watch Shirou get his ass thrashed and go through several bad ends before he miraculously survives all this bullshit long enough to figure out how to sword properly, and proceeds to either kill Herc and Gil together with Saber in rapid succession with asspull powerups (admit it, Caliburn killing Herc 7 times over for tenuous plot purposes was poorly thought out) or defeating Archer and Gil one after another to prove himself. It's not fun to watch the protagonist get his ass kicked through half the route only to suddenly pull a bunch of unbelievable underdog victories out of his ass.
TM VNs are certainly entry level, but no objective argument can be made that Tsukihime and FSN aren't widely considered two of the greatest VNs ever made. All the data available points against that.
Shirou absorbed Archer's knowledge and skills. In fact, he started doing it as early as the first night.
Fate Shirou has minimal contact with Archer, so he's the weakest.
UBW Shirou had maximum contact with Archer so he's basically Archer Lite by the end of the route.
HW Shirou had Archer's arm grafted until his shoulder. That's beyond balls-deep maximum contact.
Shirou beating Archer made perfect sense. Archer didn't lose due to Shirou beating him in sheer strength, he lost the moral and mental battle; he started questioning whether or not his choices /were/ a mistake, and ultimately realizes the path he took wasn't a wrong one.
Him being captivated by Shirou's determination was his inevitable downfall. Instead of just killing him he wanted to totally crush him, so he let the guy fight on, figuring he'd leave him completely broken before offing him, but it was Shirou who broke him.
And while you can somewhat question him winning to Gil (Even though Gil not taking him seriously was 100% in line with him up to that point), it was absolutely needed for the plot. If UBW ended with Shirou just beating Archer, it would have been a story about a kid screaming about wanting to be a hero, with his greatest action being beating himself. Beating kill, the /King/ of Heroes showed his worth; it showed he had what it took to follow his dream. He put his money where his mouth is.
Honestly I've read UBW and HF and did a shit ton of research and to this day I still have no fucking clue how Shirou obtained the Reality Marble.
The anime didn't foreshadow it well enough. I'm pretty sure in the VN Shirou popped a boner for Kanshou and Byakuya when he first saw Archer VS Lancer.
See, I'm not questioning the HOW of Shirou gained his powers, despite that point being rather poorly explained in the visual novel itself (yes, same person, their experiences and memory spill into each other, etc. etc. it's still a shitty explanation), I'm complaining about the entirety of his power progression and how it doesn't make for an entertaining experience. Shirou didn't NEED to be completely, totally incompetent at the beginning, he had all the elements needed to make him basically competent in his backstory, Nasu just wrote it in such a way that none of them took hold and he started the story as a poor fighter and an even poorer magus. Likewise, Servants didn't NEED to be so gloriously, ridiculously overpowered to the point where their feats of strength and speed involve running at hypersonic speeds as a regular thing. I understand that Nasu absolutely loves to write impossible, insurmountable challenges for the hero to overcome so that the catharsis is all the bigger when he actually achieves victory, but there comes a point where it's no longer breathtaking and simply breaks the reader's suspension of disbelief. What is the point of making Servants superhuman ubermenschs only to repeatedly throw the hero against them and have him not only survive at first but eventually beat them in some ridiculous scenario? You just end up with a disconnect where all the Servant's feats of strength don't actually end up mattering when they should matter the most. When Shirou beats a golden haired faggot in one to one combat when said blondie is supposedly being capable of casually throwing tractors and moving faster than Formula One race car, you don't gasp in delight when Shirou starts overpowering him by being able to pull swords out at a slightly faster rate than him, you just wonder "how the fuck are Shirou's arms keeping up with this guy?"
That's how things work in Nasuverse.
An average magus will usually never be anything more than average. But Shirou is hyper-specialized in one thing and one thing only. He's not good at anything else, but if he focuses everything onto that one solitary thing, he can surpass even the greatest of magi in that one field.
Hyper-specialization in a single field is pretty much the only way you can beat true geniuses.
It was a carry-over from the original protagonist of Fate, Sajyou Ayaka. She was an extremely mediocre Magus who couldn't even perform basic rituals due to her trauma, but she was a savant at Formalcraft.
You're missing the point. Nowhere did I complain about him being hyper-specialized. It usually makes more more interesting characters than simple geniuses that are good at everything.
But at the start of the story, he wasn't even halfway decent at reinforcement, despite it being the only magic he was capable of aside from projection. And it's not like he can't master reinforcement since it's one of the few magics he can do competently as Archer aside from projection itself. And what's more, for some god awful unknown reason Kiritsugu didn't even bother activating his circuits, unless he was so set on not teaching Shirou magic he was willing for Shirou to half-kill himself in a shed every day of his life trying to practice it the wrong way.
What would the story have lost if Shirou had a better toolset from the outset, not even approaching that of a good magus but at least workable to allow him to not just kicked around like a ball by everybody until he learns to sword properly via deus ex machina? What's the point of making him shit at reinforcement during practice time when his success rate is 100% whenever he actually needs to use it to save his own ass? What's the point of making him mediocre at swordplay despite having fucking TAIGA as his guardian AND having casually practiced kendo with her and Kiritsugu in the past? So Saber and Shirou can bond over training sessions in Fate? At the very least if he was decent at reinforcement and swordplay from the outset it wouldn't be quite so frustrating to see him go up against Servants and miraculously surviving by having his ass bailed out every time by Saber, Rin, or Archer. You can only use the "in the nick of time" cliche so many times before it becomes tired.
Question : If Shirou at the end of UBW went on to become a stronger version of EMIYA that appeared in Fate/Stay Night and was then summoned and encountered by another Shirou who began to analyze him would that Shirou end up stronger than the Shirou at the end of UBW?
>And what's more, for some god awful unknown reason Kiritsugu didn't even bother activating his circuits, unless he was so set on not teaching Shirou magic he was willing for Shirou to half-kill himself in a shed every day of his life trying to practice it the wrong way.
Most people wouldn't go through something like that everytime. Most sane people anyway. That was a Kiritsugu miscalculation.
Emiya Shirou, and by extension Archer, are limited only to weapons and defensive armaments with their Reinforcement thaumaturgy. They can't really use it on anything else. That's why every time Shirou uses reinforcement on an item with the intent of using it as a weapon, he's able to succeed. Even Archer's pretty shitty at Reinforcement. He can't reinforce his body the way Rin can.
The reason his success rate was close to 0 with Reinforcement for the past ten years was because he never Reinforced anything with the intent of using it as a weapon.
UBW is basically Piratebay for Shirou use only.
All Shirous that went under the Fuyuki fire and got Avalon jammed in their asses are already seeding sword files. Now if a Shirou witness a new sword, that Shirou will upload a sword torrent file in UBW which other Shirous can download for future use.
Shirou and Archer gain fighting knowledge from the weapons they trace, if they don't have any weapon in hands they can't fight for shit.
There is only one EMIYA and he is a timeless counter guardian already, and he is the only one that got summoned in the war.
Shirou comes from the unreleased Illya route, Shirou from FATE becomes the one in last episode.
>if they don't have any weapon in hands they can't fight for shit.
What is Kansho and Byakuya?
They're explicitly weapons that have zero history being used as a weapon. Shirou's dual-wielding style is directly copied from Archer's who developed it himself.
... although, you could argue that even if Archer's K&B didn't have a history of being used in battle and thus he used his own fighting style with them, when Shirou recorded Archer's pair he downloaded Archer's battle experience with them.
>That's why every time Shirou uses reinforcement on an item with the intent of using it as a weapon, he's able to succeed. Even Archer's pretty shitty at Reinforcement. He can't reinforce his body the way Rin can.
But Shirou is a sword. He can reinforce swords, why can't he reinforce himself?
>But Shirou is a sword. He can reinforce swords, why can't he reinforce himself?
>Reinforcement enhances an object's properties
>Shirou tries reinforcing himself
>makes himself even more sword
>blade virus goes into overdrive
Good going there.
>What would the story have lost if Shirou had a better toolset from the outset
It would mean Shirou is now a very different character and arguably change his entire development and relationship with certain characters.
>What's the point of making him mediocre at swordplay despite having fucking TAIGA as his guardian AND having casually practiced kendo with her and Kiritsugu in the past? So Saber and Shirou can bond over training sessions in Fate?
Where is it ever shown he's mediocre at swordplay? The point of those scenes is to foreshadow Shirou being Archer along with how his fighting style works, in addition to showing how out classed he is by servants.
>At the very least if he was decent at reinforcement and swordplay from the outset it wouldn't be quite so frustrating to see him go up against Servants and miraculously surviving by having his ass bailed out every time by Saber, Rin, or Archer. You can only use the "in the nick of time" cliche so many times before it becomes tired
This only happens five times over the course of the entire VN, of which four scenes would still have him getting bailed out regardless of skill, and one of these scenes also including a dead end. Shirou being more competent in such a manner would only end up changing one of these scenes at best as well since Caster would possibly be unable to lure him to her. Otherwise he's still going to have Saber get summoned in the same situation, Rider will still save him from True Assassin and Archer from Gil's Ea blast, and Rin will still come to his aid to help him against Rider. If Shirou from the start could competently fight against Servants, it would completely ruin the point of servants being strong.
Being filled with swords is suffering
>What's the point of making him mediocre at swordplay despite having fucking TAIGA as his guardian AND having casually practiced kendo with her and Kiritsugu in the past?
I can't recall him actually being mediocre at swordplay, it's just all his training sessions are with a heroic spirit that can disarm taiga before she even notices it.