I only watched NGE for the first time a week ago, and before that i always knew rei, at least in the visual sense.. i saw her everywhere, porn, fan drawings, just a design that becomes burned into your mind.
Yes i agree she is more iconic, even if you dont watch anime chances are you have seen rei or know her name. Her aesthetic is definitely one of the most famous.
After watching NGE however i totally lost any interest her aesthetic might have had. She was a boring character, and asuka became much sexier, more fun to look at, and i will remember her above rei.
>>117249711 Let's not forget that not all the doujins made back in the day got scanned and made it to the internet. Granted, most of them probably were poorly drawn, but you are not giving high quality ones a higher weight. Also, inb4 some dumbfuck starts a thread with booru's statistics.
>>117256055 My point is that Rei's existence is merely to please an autistic sociopath, and his even more autistic teenage son got looped in as well. She is a doll, and nothing more. It's unhealthy to like her how she is. Her behavior is not natural, it's creepy. There is no emotion, there is no ego, there is no soul. Only schizophrenics act like Rei.
Asuka, on the other hand, is an above-average teenage girl with a human personality and emotions. And she's hotter, smarter, knows more languages, and is flexible with her life.
Rei was designed only to do what she does. She is static and boring. There's not even much to say about her because she is so dull.
At least Asuka provides a point of debate. She is something worth discussing. Even if you don't like her, she would be better company than a creepy quiet albino robot with no life, friends, personality, hobbies, dreams, aspirations, family, or memories.
Which Rei are you even talking about? Rei 2? Rei 3? Q? That's not a person, those are just clones. Gendo's playthings.
>>117256598 >My point is that Rei's existence is merely to please an autistic sociopath, and his even more autistic teenage son got looped in as well. >She is a doll, and nothing more. It's unhealthy to like her how she is. Her behavior is not natural, it's creepy. There is no emotion, there is no ego, there is no soul. Only schizophrenics act like Rei. Well according to the source material, all of that is false.
In fact your entire post is as if you've never watched it.
Asuka does not provide a point of debate at all. Do come up with anything she can be a point of debate on.
With Rei you have an actual challenge, a philosophical question to debate and understand.
All you're doing is dismissing Rei for not beign a cliche genki girl like you'd expect from anime.
You're either trolling or retarded.
>>117256678 I like Rei just enough to feel the need to point out how horrendously wrong you are. If that's all you got out of the character, then maybe a more shallow and easy character like Yuki Nagato is for you. She is all aesthetic, all moe and no brain.
The reason Rei is this legendary icon is because she has a past, she has a journey and something to say from her heart. That is quite rare for anime characters - to have a conclusion based on their lives. The aesthetic is original, it's nearly flawless, and to take her for a robot despite you watch her cry alone in her room, ebb out her heart before she dies is just insane to me.
>>117256912 Again, which Rei are you talking about? There are several Rei's and they all seem the same because none of them have a personality.
She's not a person. They are just clones that tricked you into thinking that they were one person because they didn't have any emotions or development to distinguish them from each other. And if you think differently then you are degrading each of them to being less than human. It's pathetic.
And Asuka has more personality than all the Rei's combined, I don't hate Rei. There's nothing to hate; she's a shell. I pity Rei and I pity you.
>>117257211 >no she doesnt... Might want to rewatch Evangelion.
>she pilots unit 0 and does exactly what she's told to at all times. She doesn't back down when she takes the nuke to bomb Zeruel.
She doesn't eject when ordered to against Armisael.
She doesn't take Asuka's shit or do as she says, or Shinji for that matter.
She doesn't do what Gendo wants her to do in EoE.
That "she does what she's told" is a severe exaggeration and a lie.
>which is ? To assert her own power to define herself, as opposed to what people (like you for instance) would decry her as. That despite having a turbulent existence that defies traditional views of what a human is, she is herself and that is what matters. She has to understand herself, she who is different from anyone else.
>>117257330 In science fiction, plenty, in anime, not so much at the level Rei does it. Evangelion is science fiction, and Rei presents one of the best parts of it.
>>117257465 >Again, which Rei are you talking about? There are several Rei's and they all seem the same because none of them have a personality. There's only one Rei in NGE. So I'm referring to the original.
>but they just tricked you anon why do you slander Rei or hate her so much? Really?
>>117257518 >>no she doesnt... >Might want to rewatch Evangelion.
so shes a clone from his dead wife ? is that supposed to be her "past" ?
>That "she does what she's told" is a severe exaggeration and a lie.
she only does that shit like not backing down or not ejecting because she wants to save precious shinji who she sees as gendo 2.0
i didnt watch EoE so i cant comment on that...
She doesnt want to assert herself she just lives for her father gendo and does WHATEVER it takes to please him and be a good little clone.
even fucking shinji has more moments when hes trying to "define himself" and trying to understand himself.
>In science fiction, plenty, in anime, not so much at the level Rei does it. Evangelion is science fiction, and Rei presents one of the best parts of it.
just because it was taken to a new medium (if you can even call anime such a seperate medium from films) it doesnt deserve such praise.
Its a generic plot device in science fiction and im sure the writer ripped it directly from something he read, repackaged it as a blue haired anime grill, and then everyone came because the design looked nice enough, and hurr durr muh apathetical waifu
>>117258199 I want to fucking strangle you. EoE isn't an alternate ending, it's the same fucking thing from an external perspective. I love the TV series ending as well.
>isn't canon It's the same fucking event from a different perspective, you dolt. EoE was going to be the original ending before they ran out of budget, so they decided to make the TV series ending from an internal perspective. Seriously, go back to fucking /v/.
>>117257942 Here's where the portion about Rei comes in, Rei 1 dies, but is remade as Rei 2. The same happens with Rei 3.
This is a fundamental piece of the character that if you do not pick up on, you've failed to understand the character. Given your recounting there, you've failed completely and need to rewatch for a much better experience.
>>117257989 >so shes a clone from his dead wife ? is that supposed to be her "past" ? No, that's her origin and genesis. Her past is being raised in a lab, and indoctrinated to believe she's replaceable, having that proved even.
>she only does that shit like not backing down or not ejecting because she wants to save precious shinji who she sees as gendo 2.0 So she does something that she wants, is that it?
>i didnt watch EoE so i cant comment on that... Wait why the fuck are you even commenting? Did you watch NGE or the rebuilds?
>She doesnt want to assert herself she just lives for her father gendo and does WHATEVER it takes to please him and be a good little clone. That's why she ruins his day right? Dude just stop. You're obsessed with shitting on Rei and it shows.
>just because it was taken to a new medium (if you can even call anime such a seperate medium from films) it doesnt deserve such praise. Is that jealousy I hear? It was good, regardless of originaly, and it deserves praise. For even a cloning scenario is a good take and fairly original.
>Its a generic plot device in science fiction and im sure the writer ripped it directly from something he read, repackaged it as a blue haired anime grill, and then everyone came because the design looked nice enough, and hurr durr muh apathetical waifu wow you sound butthurt.
>>117257989 >>117258341 Also it's not a "generic plot device" when it's seriously explored and used as a core part of the character. In Rebuild however, it is a plot device. Which is why so many people don't even recognize or accept the new Rei.
>OP tries to make a thread about Porn relating to popularity of charakters in general and just pick one of the most popular examples >Thread turns into Eva Waifu Wars Thread #9272618
But to get back on the subject matter OP: I don't think so. As for your example I think that artists just enjoy drawing porn of Asuka because of her general looks (and by that I mean her hair, I can imagine long hair beeing more fun to draw) and her rather seductive behaviour which makes it easier to put her in porn/hentai worthy material. But this is a rather bad example for this since I imagine Reifags beeing mainly Otakus who are into the 'Quiet Girl' Trope. By that I mean that they see Rei as a mystery rather than an empty shell, which is what most people and normalfags see in her. I can't really think of another example for this though but I'd just say that a porn is mainly done for charakters that are nice to look at and generally behave 'sexy', two things that don't define a good character. I see this as similar to shows popularity and porn quantity. As far as I know there is more Eva porn than there is for let's say Dragonball but Dragonball was FAR more popular.
>>117258676 Yes, it was. Did you not see the part where everyone was tanged and with Shinji's decision could stay that way or return to the real world? SEELE apparently got the scenario they wanted, since I'm sure they did not leave the LCL sea. But oh wait, if you're the faggot that said he did not watch EoE, then you did not see this. Do you even know what you are talking about?
sadpanda isn't even a good watermark for how many doujins are out there, only the ones that get scanned & uploaded. Plus the coverage of anything past the mid 2000s is spotty at best. It's a completely meaningless metric to try and make a real comparison from but it started a stupid waifu war so congratulations OP.
>>117259251 The target public of said doujins are 100% otaku, including here the fujoshits. No other demographics have interest in such a publication. >>117259470 Do you think Anno hates her? It was him that wrote this. She literally spent the whole ep 24 trying to kill herself and is rescued by NERV.
Rei is boring and there's nothing you can do to sexualize boring. You can play up her submissive, unreactionary nature for the domination crowd but even that mostly feels like programming a sex doll to gasp at the thrust of your dick. Asuka has personality, personality goes a long way. There's actual substance to work with if you're making a porn about Asuka. You actually can see that this would be a girl with turn ons and turn offs. So, OK, does Asuka have more sex appeal? I suppose so, but porn =/= popularity.
Rei's allure is her mysterious, massively internalized emotional resonance that never seems to surface into a coherent personality. With Asuka everything is out in the open. Rei seems to have every emotion obscured and your mind is forced to fill in the blanks. Does not mean she's any less popular just that it's just harder to sexualize what is not meant to be seen or known.
>>117259723 >Implying serious non-nonsense female characters are 'boring' and thus unnattractive, leading to less fetishization of them by the fanbase of the media they're in. Come on man, you can do better than that.
>>117259723 This is strange, usually you hear that she's "perfect for sexualization" because of how submissive she is, but when it turns out that reality don't match up with your claims, suddenly she's not a fit because she lacks the personality for it.
Asukafaggotry knows no bounds, does it? No shame, no punches pulled in trying to fake superiority.
There's a reason EoE depicts Asuka being jerked off to. It's not a coincidence. Like the amount of porn suggests, like the obsession with fantasy sex her fans have, Asuka's popularity depends on her being sexy more than a character. It has little to do with her "open personality", it's about the fact that the fans of Asuka like more demand.
Rei has a character that is more engaging and challenging than she is sexy. Asuka on the other is easy to understand and outright boring, unless placed in a situation where she can be sexy and serve as masturbatory material.
This is why Rebuild can remove Asuka's entire character, contradict the original and everything it was, without the fans even noticing because they're too focused on shipping and enjoying pornography.
The moment Rei gets portrayed or twisted into a mindless sexdoll that follows every order in 3.0, the fanbase collectively rejects it.
>>117260015 Man, I'm dying now. If I ever write any piece of fiction I will have somebody's characterization be defined ONLY by: >Try to kill himself >Be interrupted by cops/whatever and taken to a hospital room, making this character almost miss the climax of the story. 10/10 writing, right?
>>117260290 Do you ever hesitate before jumping right to the factionalism? Is there ever a moment where you think 'maybe this person's opinion does not differ with mine because they are a member of some opposing camp', or is that genuinely how you interpret all discourse here? I don't mean these as mocking rhetorical questions, I'm honestly curious about the mindset behind these kinda fights.
>>117260618 I've found that it's usually a waste of time to hesitate. A discussion could go on for hours until it is finally revealed, after for example an Asukafag is soundly defeated, that he or she was only arguing his point of view to protect his waifu.
Check out Evageeks - there's a thread for each of the characters where you might give your opinion on what they are. Read that, and then follow the user to see what waifu "camp" they belong to. For Rei's thread, they believe she's a "sex idol" while harboring zero such ideas for Asuka - despite some of them even writing sexual fanfiction.
I only mention that site because it's easy to see who is who.
>>117260757 So, no? Been burned one too many times to argue in good faith? I can't say I don't understand. On the other hand, entering an argument with negative assumptions and then confirming them as being born out on the basis of the other person's opinion conflicting with yours is a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it.
thank you for continuing to respond to my pretentious bullshit instead of telling me to fuck off though
>>117260960 Not among the otaku fanbase, who have entirely moved on to Asuka or Mari, for males Kaworu. But then again, this was always the trend. Rei threads were small on 2ch and so were the communities.
It's also going to be the future trend because as you all know, Anno hates Rei and discussing the new version is absolutely pointless because of how it's just a literal travesty.
Have a quote from Megumi Hayashibara, Rei's voice actor:
>It's pointless to speculate about Rei-chan… actually, trying to do so only makes things worse. I don't see the point.
>>117261062 It serves more than one end. Regardless of you being an Asukafag or not, I get to comment on the Asukafag behavior which I often find despicable. Which you can clearly observe ITT by the way, so it's a little bit cathartic to "hollaback".
Tell me, why would I have faith when I've seen as much as I have?
>>117261098 >It's pointless to speculate about Rei-chan… actually, trying to do so only makes things worse. I don't see the point.
Let it be known, Rei lost before back in EoE, she was completely destroyed in 3.0, and this only confirms that she has already lost 3+1. Notice that Reifags can only cite NGE to defend their precious waifu. When the end finally comes, Reifags will once and for all be driven into eternal shadow, or more likely drop her altogether after suffering catastrophic anal devastation.
>>117261464 That's an interesting bit of slander right there, considering that EoE is pretty solid for Rei along with NGE, and after this Rei's status as most popular character was cemented for the entire decade.
It does not sound like losing if you ask me.
The only way you could constitute it being losing, would be if you narrowly set the criteria to be physically closer to Shinji by the end of the movie, which I suppose Asuka is. Even though she's being throttled.
So the only way to say Rei "lost" and Asuka "won" would be to reduce the entire TV-series and it's movie finale to mere shipping.
>>117261399 You want to "save her" so you can fuck her, or fuck her to save her. Asukafags hate her relationship to Kaji and often try to erase it, hell they even say she "won" EoE because she woke up next to their self insert. All of this has to do with sexual interest.
>>117261464 What did Rei lose in EoE? She literally got to solve her own identity problems - she was welcomed home by Lillith and got to not have her human form forgotten. Oh, you must have meant the Shinjibowl, amirite?
>>117261577 >Where the hell are you pulling this from? Suddenly you're speaking for the vast majority of Asukafags? Numerous Asukafags I've encountered saying this unironically. You're one of the few exceptions. I don't speak for them more than you do.
Whatever you might find the assumptions to be, they are at least somewhat supported by the fact that Rei is more popular, but has less porn than Asuka, a less popular character.
You can see that the Porn-To-Popularity is higher for Asuka than Rei, indicating a bit of what the interests of the fans are.
It's not always the case of course, and I admit that.
>>117261464 >Rei lost before back in EoE Nigga, the fuck are you even talking about. There's no winning or losing in Eva, it's not a goddamn harem. I'd say Asuka lost since she's getting choked whereas Rei is living as a fucking goddess. The only one who ever wins the Shinji is Kaworu anyway.
I suddenly wish there was a doujin where Gendo drags handcuffed Shinji to the LCL Rei Tank, dumps in a gallon of aphrodisiac waits until the Rei clones are rabidly aroused, strips his sun naked, throws him in and just walks away.
Op's numbers are real misleading because they're not filtered at all.
The older doujins in sadpanda, the ones from the late 90s, are typically more Rei focused. I'd guess that if there was a more comprehensive collection of the pre-200s stuff, the numbers would even out.
>>117261947 >Right, only somewhat supported. Supported enough I'd say, if they were equally popular it would be sketchy, but given that Rei is more popular and recognized in nipland, the number difference is substantial.
>>117262039 There's no need. You can check the doujin-database that has the records in their entirety.
Asuka still clocks in at around 50% more.
The OP might show a bigger discrepancy, but the difference you have there is substantially larger nonetheless, and this is for a character that is apparently is less popular than the others.
>>117261593 >>117261657 Say what you will, only one remained in the end. Yes Rei succeeded, in dying. clap clap amazing how difficult.
Tell how does it feel to watch RoE 3? How does it feel to see your waifu twisted and broken and turned into something that surprisingly had even less personality than the shell in NGE? How did it feel watching her waddle after Asuka and Shinji like a lost duckling without a purpose?
Winners are those who remain, who lead and stay true to their self. In EoE Rei only managed to find herself, and in doing so was undone.
>>117262100 Quite the contrary. If you go back to the 90's or when she had Rei's original character, Hayashibara could go on about what she liked about Rei and her character. http://www.evamonkey.com/writings_hayashibara01.php
Later, although I don't remember the source, I believe it perhaps was for 1.0 or 2.0, she did exclaim that she was happy to do Rei again rather than what she had to do in the spinoffs.
Now she seems resigned, like much of the Rei fanbase is, that Anno just won't treat the character with the same respect he once did, rather the opposite.
>>117262288 Particularly this is nice to hear from her: >No; Rei's beauty comes from the truth that she has feelings. When she cried, it meant the waters of the pool were coming out at last. The struggle to draw your feelings forth, the reconciliation between your surface and your depth--that, I believe, is where we truly become alive, truly become human beings. And when I found the warmth below the coldness in her words, I synchronized with Rei for the first time. And it felt so good that I want to say thank you, from the bottom of my own heart.
which is sadly juxtaposed with this: >It's pointless to speculate about Rei-chan… actually, trying to do so only makes things worse. I don't see the point.
>>117262836 >I'm that guy, but I don't think that myself.
Don't give me that bullshit, that was your two-cents.It's right there. I'm not buying that. You said what you believe most Asukafags to think then you started a new sentence to extrapolate on what you thought.
>>117261556 Took me a while to find this, but this was so worth it. Rei was reading this in episode 9 when Asuka spoke to her. It's in german, by the way, not in english. What do you have to say, tough guy? FINALLY
>>117256598 >My point is that Rei's existence is merely to please an autistic sociopath, TL;DR, but as for this, I think that the purpose for Rei's birth (or... creation?) makes her an even more interesting character. The psychological reigns that have been placed upon that which she feels she is destined to do create an interesting conflict within her mind. also i'm a reifufag
You win this round, Reifags. If you will stay by your waifu even in the face of a condescending Anno-san, even if she is defaced and ruined by RoE, then I suppose you deserve at least one victory.
Let us remember Anno-san laughs at us all. And although I'm no Reifag, I think it's cruel what he did to her and you with 3.0. No one deserves that. I simply ask that you give us some consideration here too, after all we have to deal with Marifags more than you and THAT shit sucks.
>>117249711 Yes. For example, Natsume Tsuchimikado and her series aren't very popular, and it shows by the lack of lewd art and doujins (and art for that matter). Even May from Pokemon has more art than her.
>>117264415 Well it's my opinion, I find her useless as an interesting or engaging character, I got to be free to do that.
In the show she fits the themes and narrative very well, so she's not useless in that sense.
But as a pilot and representation of a person, I find her lacking. It should be added that it's not that realistic to expect much more, and it's not that Asuka is useless it's more that the others are very good.
I find Ritsuko to be under appreciated. Her lore is pretty deep in Eva, at least as deep as Misato's. She also goes through a lot of development also, potentially gang rape, but they never explained what happened to her before she was thrown naked in front of SEELE.
>>117264813 I've been in it for roughly the same, and I'm an Asukafag for the record.
>>117264902 There isn't any problem with having more than one perspective, in fact, the more the better.
The problem is each time I'd knock down a point, you'd move to a different one, downplaying your previous statement each time. Until eventually, your points aren't points and merely "perspectives." Making them a no-go zone for me, because people are allowed to have opinions and i recognize that. You're trying to save face, I've seen it play out the same before.
I allude to Mein Kampf because Hitler has a similar critique when he was caught in discourse with Jewish individuals. Except that saying "You argue like a Jew" is really fucking crude.
It's whatever though man. I'm almost used to this type of pseudo-argumentation being foisted up.
>>117265241 > Everything you wrote is essentially off-topic, even the anti-semitism.
You mentioned it in passing, so I felt obligated to explain it's relevance. Unlike you, I like having my points concise and clear and not moved back and forth.
Secondly, I'm not second-guessing for shit. I've maintained my stance that Asuka is of worth, while you moved from "She's practically useless" to "she's uselss in terms of what one can take away from her" to "She's not useless, it's just that others are superior."
I called you out as such and you predictably aimed to minimize it and to kick it under the rug, stating that they're merely "perspectives."
She's not caring like Misato. She's not funny like Misato. She's not even friendly like Kaji. She's just a bitch scientist cardboard cutout except with a Dark Past that wasn't even dark because it was made worse by Ritsuko's own jealousy.
Unlike the rest of the cast, Ritsuko's could've easily avoided her fate if she wasn't so hoggish.
>>117265094 But there's no use. Asuka is objectively better than Rei. If these idiots don't realize that it's because they are incapable of understanding actual human emotions. Reifags are unable to empathize with real people.
They can't put up with a real female human being that has an ego and is emotional. That's why they try to find something deeper in Rei than there really is. She is a doll with a blank expression for them to project their emotions onto, much like children with stuffed animals.
If they don't understand that, they never will. You are telling blind men to imagine a rainbow or a beautiful sunset. Such is the melancholy of the Reifags, which is why I pity them. At least we know the truth.
>>117265433 If you go back, you'll see that what I said was valid within the discussion. I'm not moving inbetween points over perspectives either. You only failed to realize what I was talking about. Just like you failed to recognize what was my opinion and what wasn't earlier.
I maintain everything I've said so far, and I haven't gone back on anything. If there was a problem I explained it to you, and now you're stuck literally citing Adolf Hitler trying to prove me wrong.
>>117265604 I suppose it really is like that still after all these years, isn't it?
What a shame.
>>117265921 No, your points became opinions because you lacked the capacity to defend them. I did not need to cite Adolf Hitler to prove a point that I'd already proven, I just believe it was an interesting comparison.
The fact that you think I needed to rely on that only further portrays your inability to find footing and defend your points, hence you go on the offensive.
I cannot reach an anon with your powerful level of cognitive dissonance, and I hope that in time, it no longer troubles you. Good talk.
>>117266080 Anon you haven't proven a single thing. The last time we had any relevant discussion was when I talked Evangelion, then you refused to continue.
Enough with your false sense of superiority here, it's not working on me or anyone who reads this. You either address the Eva-related points, or you concede. I've humored you long enough and all you've done is made a fool out of yourself.
She was willing to pull the trigger on an N2 mine to destroy everything and give no one their human instrumentality project, avert third impact completely. Had not the Magi intervened, she could have prevented the entire third impact.
>>117266196 >Enough with your false sense of superiority here >I've humored you long enough and all you've done is made a fool out of yourself.
Oh my, how embarassing and hypocritical. We moved from talking about Eva to talking about how you argue, because you kept minimizing your points to perspectives for conveninces' sake.
>it's not working on me or anyone who reads this.
By continuing to post replies, it is indirect admission that I have proved mutliple things, as you're still attempting to damage control. Whereas I'm replying because the more you do to mine, it makes it more obvious what actually went down.
But I mean hey, "you've humored me long enough" right? See you later then. Do try to bring something more to the table next time.
>>117265604 This old song again, eh? Let me refer you to >>117262454 and what Megumi says, and what every Rei fan and normal person who took the character and understood it says. Rei has actual human emotions.
Rather, it's the Asukafan that can't understand actual human emotion, and need them telegraphed in exaggerated fashion using every anime cliche in the book through Asuka to actually maintain that there was emotion involved.
The Asukafan thus projects their own weakness unto Rei fans, just like they do with the porn/sex thing. They themselves are not able to deal with a real girl, and so what do they do?
You idolize a cartoon. Which is all what Asuka is, gentlemen. She's a safe cartoon character, who isn't a real person either. In fact claiming that Asuka somehow is provides them with the delusion they want, that their obsession with a cartoon is OK because she's "real". It's a deep delusion you suffer there Asuka fan.
This is the delusion you chose because you wouldn't accept that Rei is objectively superior. That's why you keep making up fancy stories instead of comparing them at the objective level. Because once you do that, you lose.
...and for the record, Asuka's ego is laughably weak compared to Rei's. Her entire ego is something that was constructed and built by NERV, to pilot the EVA. It's her entire personality, based on being the best EVA pilot, just like NERV wants their good doll to do. Asuka bases her existence upon piloting the EVA, and tries to kill herself when she can't do it any more. That's how frail Asuka's ego is. She has no personality, all she has is a loud volume setting, which Asuka fans (people who don't understand other people) need to assert any sort of emotion exists. Empty barrels make the most noise, and lord knows Asuka is noisy.
Compare back to Rei, a person who deeply defines themselves instead of accepting another person's definition, Rei's Ego is asserted as superior by the end of NGE. Rei did what Asucan't.
>>117266372 Still evading I see. It makes sense, since you got showed up when it came to actually talking about the characters and Evangelion. If anything is convenient, that's it. If you stop talking Evangelion, if you cease being on-topic, you're the one doing damage control. Because I am at any point ready to continue the debate you ran away from earlier. Just like Asuka ran away in NGE. Only don't try to kill yourself.
She was Harley to Gendo's joker. But instead of jokes there were schemes. Gendo's schemes were the schemingest and Ritsuko's were pretty schemy but in the end, like Harley the joke...I mean the scheme was on her.
>>117266687 Anti-heroes have good qualities that are overshadowed by their unconventionality. They are moral people who refuse to abide by society's norms. They are righteous, even when people don't think that they are. If anyone is an anti-hero in Eva, it's Ikari Yui or Kaji Ryouji.
Ritsuko just a shitty person. Like I said, she doesn't care about anyone other than herself. That's not an being an anti-hero, that's just being a bitch.
>>117266390 Oh, and for the record, Rei doesn't have an ego, as the series makes it very clear that she is always striving to find herself and struggles with notions of identity, as she is a clone after all.
>>117266761 >More like what we tend to say hits too close to home and you bounce it back. Not the case. I've showed so. This is classic projection. You're insecure and need people to have your own faults. Just like Asuka does by the way, is it that strange that you sympathize with her?
>Appeal to normalcy Wasn't that what you did, implied that Reifags were abnormal? Showing the opposite is merely crushing your argument.
>We never claimed she was a real girl, only much more realistic than Rei. She's equally realistic, being fictional and all.
As far as realism goes, Rei is perfectly realistic by the way.
The facts are that objectively speaking, Rei is the best. That's why you have to narrow down everything
>>117266915 Striving to find yourself, to understand yourself is one of the most human things you can do. It's one of the more intellectual practices, to not only define yourself but to define humanity itself, which Rei takes a stab at more than one time in NGE.
Rei does have an ego, and boy is it wondrous. Rei is confused, but she has the right to be confused because her experience and insight far exceeds that of Asuka and anyone else. She has the motive and reason to question everything, which she does internally.
Asuka is like the cow grazing the fields, without knowledge but happy to do what she was born to do, eat grass or pilot the EVA, both which will die without doing so.
Asuka's ego is a sham. It's a fake and when Asuka was forced to eat it up, she broke. Just like Asuka fans do when they're reminded. Rei's ego is the product of deep self-analysis, understanding, reflection and introspection. It is genuine, and Rei asserts what Asuka couldn't, that she alone was in charge of her destiny.
>>117266980 No, I never said that. I can understand if people like Gendou, for instance. At least he cared about someone (Yui), even if it was obsessive and it blinded him in the process. Gendo's complex, as well, so that's a point for his Likability, even if he is a shitty person.
Ritsuko? Ritsuko isn't complex like Gendo. She doesn't truly care for anyone. Her feelings for Gendo are more about validating herself. Misato even mentions that their friendship was empty and onesided. Ritsuko takes without giving back.
How someone could like such a one-note, uncomplex, rotten character is beyond me.
>>117266390 I've never seen a single post so overwhelmingly wrong. Rei has no ego. She is a puppet. All she did was follow Gendo's orders until Shinji came along, who to her just became a better Gendo who, instead of oppressing and controlling her, let her grow out a little and make a few independent choices. However, this is an over interpretation on Rei's part, as Shinji was just so much of a fucking pussy that Rei misinterpreted his ineptitude as something greater.
I'm not saying Rei is a bad character. As a work of fiction she is interesting, I guess, and it takes some thought to try to really understand her. However, Asuka is better than her, and is a character that a rational human being can connect with on an empathetic level. And God help you if you can empathize with Rei easier than any of the other characters.
Rei is inhuman. She was literally made for a single reason, and she ultimately fulfills her role. A real human is not bound by such a fate, which is why Shinji and Asuka are the ones you see on the beach in the end.
Speaking of which, just look at the interactions between Asuka and everyone and then Rei and everyone.
Asuka can be very nice to some people, and mean to others. She acts grateful, spiteful, jealous, prideful, happy, glad, content, impressed, etc. We get to see her display the entire range of human emotions with other people. Rei is just creepy quiet and usually absent from social interaction. Like you.
I remember liking Asuka more, she was fun, until she went crazy.
Rei was just unnerving. She could have been a more interesting character, but I don't think they did enough with her, and they should have maybe handled her relationship with Shinji a bit different, IDK.
Haven't seen the rebuilds, sounds like they both suck in that though.
Rewatch the series before cranking out milqetoast attempts at saying otherwise.
As for the upper parts of your post, I never implied Reifags were abnormal, just that they have rather poor taste, compounded in textwalls of masturbatorly hyperbolation. One could argue that arguing for Rei's sake is your only source of validation, but I'll spare you that. For how much you boast of Rei's nonexistant ego, Reifags seem to give off the appearance that their's are much more shallower than what you purport Asuka's to be.
>She's equally realistic
Oh sure, I suppose an Alien Goddess is equally as feasible as a genius human pilot in the mind of a Reifag.
>That's why you have to narrow down everything
More like Reifags overgeneralize, which this thread has ample evidence of.
>>117267239 And you've resorted solely to Ad Hominem. Nice :^)
>>117267286 Conflating fictional characters with real people. Ritsuko is a bad person, that's hardly up for debate. What you're doing is taking that and saying that it also makes her a bad character. You're baffled as to why people would like the character because you think the standards and perspective people approach a fictional character with are largely identical to the ones they use on real people.
It's just a very limiting perspective, you'll be able to appreciate fiction a lot more if you aren't so wed to it.
>>117267224 Exactly, Rei is a weird fuck and Asuka is fun.
Asuka has a realistic personality and kicks ass.
Rei has the personality of someone with Schizophrenia and is otherwise dull. The only time we get to see Rei on her own in her room, she just stands there looking at a wall and then breaks some glasses. And that's it. She probably just stares at walls in her free time when not getting fucked by Gendo.
>>117267209 >I've never seen a single post so overwhelmingly wrong. Take a look at your own before you say that.
>Rei has no ego. She is a puppet. Wrong. Asuka is the puppet, Rei proves her non-puppet status more than once in the series, and finally once and for all in EoE. See >>117267144
>All she did was follow Gendo's orders until Shinji came along Everyone followed Gendo's orders. Take Asuka, she followed them to the end. Rei on the other hand, she defied Gendo as well as Misato on more than one occasion.
So far, you're wrong. Your inability to empathize with a character the majority could moreso than Asuka, actually suggest you're the one in need of help here.
Rei's inhumanity is greatly overshadowed by her humanity. Rei being made for a single reason and her fate is ultimately denied by the end, when Rei defies the one who set the purpose for her. Asuka is not a real human moreso than Rei, not even in the Evangelion universe where what a human is blurred through technology.
All in all you are proving me right. You fail the litmus test of empathy and understanding other people, as you would rather criticize Rei falsely by claiming she does not have emotion than try to understand. Those who do know that Rei does have emotion. Rei smiles, she cries, and she broods in her bed like the rest. The difference being that Rei has lacked a good social upbringing that introduces these behaviors.
That Asuka shows more emotion is not something that makes her better. It only highlights what you think is important on a personal level. It also is evidence that you're unable to empathize or understand even a fictional character unless every emotion is clearly spelled out for you and telegraphed openly. The comment on anti-social behavior is best directed at yourself.
OK, here is what Ritsuko offers as a character: Of the three girls Gendo was banging she was the only one who worked up the courage to defy him. Once she realized just how underhanded he was she set out to ruin his plans and she went to jail for it. Also she told Misato who the last angel was.
>>117267530 False. I enjoy plenty of villainous characters. In fact, a good villain is one of my favorite things in fiction.
The issue is, and I think I speak for everyone when I say this, a villain only becomes likable if they're complex. If they had a reason for their beliefs and actions, one that isn't so "black and white", then they become better characters, not necessarily better people.
The point is, unlike the rest of the characters (good or bad "people" not withstanding) Ritsuko is one-note. Why does she do what she does? Because she was jealous of her mother and wanted Gendou's dick. She's almost like the members of SEELE, who are unlikable because their motives and aspirations are dull and basal.
>>117267467 >Rewatch the series before cranking out milqetoast attempts at saying otherwise. I'm not seeing any counter here. "Rewatch" is not sufficient argumentation to what I wrote.
I can clearly see you're losing here. But this is always the case isn't it? More projecting from you.
Here's the truth:
A sane, normal person would not need to lie and fabricate the truth as much as you do. Not online, not even in real life. That means you're yet again, projecting. This defense, this white-knighting of Asuka through ragging on Rei is your only source of validation, isn't it? In fact it makes even more sense now that you (or the other one) now barges into the thread seeing you've seen Asukafags with "savior complexes": >>117261399
>Oh sure, I suppose an Alien Goddess is equally as feasible as a genius human pilot in the mind of a Reifag. Your genius human pilot is also alien in Evangelion. She's a lilin, offspring of said alien goddess.
As far as realism goes, you have to accept that they stand equally. It is the character, their thoughts as well as their development that incites realism. In that department, Rei's depiction of a socially neglected child is more accurate than Asuka's static character that depends entirely on a backstory to validate itself.
We could go on like this forever, because you're so concerned with not dealing with reality that you make up your own.
From the onset, the Asukfag claimed Rei was objectively better. But when we did an objective comaprison and Rei won, you retreat further into the delusion that an anime-character is more "real" than the other.
When we back further down into being "realistic", there's even doubts there considering Asuka is mostly a static undeveloped character, whereas a realistically portrayed person needs some sort of introspective and conscious ability, something Asuka doesn't possess but Rei does.
>>117267877 >and I think I speak for everyone when I say this, a villain only becomes likable if they're complex. Well that's just patently false. All you're doing is looking at your own opinions as objective standards. Even if that is the norm on /a/, it's disheartening.
I mean, shouldn't the jump from 'I don't like this kind of character' to 'this character is bad' set off some warning lights?
>>117267918 >"Rewatch" is not sufficient argumentation to what I wrote.
Sure it is when you obviously fail to grasp the source material and go on tangents of hyperbolation. Frustratingly insisting others are "projecting" as much as you do is poor form, and honestly leads me to believe my original claim that you can't handle the truth.
>From the onset, the Asukfag claimed Rei was objectively better.
I never agreed to such a thing nor said so. One thing Reifags excel at is grasping for straws and constructing strawmans, as is proven right here.
I merely harp on realism because it's one thing that Reifags cannot argue for.
I find it highhly hypocritical when you say " you retreat further into the delusion" when the actual delusion is self-evident in how many hoops you have to jump through to defend a sense of Rei being realistic.
Whereas the other Reifag's mode of argumentation was minimization, yours is complete attempted reflection, unable to process any criticism and firing it back at honest Asukafags.
Unfortunately for you, I don't have the hours to spend breaking you down to all but Ad Hominem, as that other Reifag did when ousted.
>>117267669 How meaningful it is, how well it develops and conveys it's conclusion. How realistically it is portrayed. What questions it asks, what it can inspire in form of thought and debate. If we can learn something from the character, and that character can convey it itself in a plausible manner, I'll rate it high. How well it fits in conjunction with the overall story's narrative and themes is important too.
My opinion is that both Rei and Asuka are characters of quality that both contribute to the overall story.
I will consider Rei superior for many reasons depending on the perspective we choose, but more according to the criteria above I give the edge to Rei because she in the original series has a self-driven arc, with a beginning, a development and a final conclusion that is entirely justified and realistic.
Rei can approach existentialist themes with full credibility, because she is smack dab in the middle of what would be an existential nightmare. It is not mere pretentious cryptic talk, but something tied deeply to the character.
Superficially the part about emotion asks the questions of what emotions are, where they come from and how they relate to expression. With Rei we have the answer that expression is not the same as emotion. Simple you might think, but it is well demonstrated.
It's a character that challenges the way you think and normally perceive things, which is an achievement only reserved for the best of characters in fiction.
Asuka in comparison becomes more of a foil to Shinji. She has a static character that rides entirely on the fact that she can not change whatsoever. Nor is Asuka even allowed to think for herself because it could spoil the character and her function.
This is why Asuka is compared to the doll by the narrative and in flashbacks, but Rei is not. It's why the doll is Asuka's motif, not Rei's. Being in-character, Asuka projects her weakness unto others and then attacks them.
>>117267599 I'm glad the recent turn of events haven't shaken your blind admiration for a non-person you have hopelessly misunderstood. If only Anno felt the same, maybe your opinion would matter.
And it will only make your day of reckoning that much greater. Even the manga writer admitted that he was swayed over to Asuka's side after realizing how much better her character was. The master knows, I know, and enough other anons in this thread know. But then there's you obscenely delusional Reifags who can't be argued with due to your massive generalizations and terrible taste.
Oh well, I tried to help you, but you will not be made to see reason. All I can do is watch you tumble deeper into a pit of misconceptions until 3+1 comes out and you are finally BTFO for good. Even holding on to the original series you will not be able to withstand the absolute victory to which Asuka is guaranteed, the victory that is reserved only for the best female character in NGE.
It's almost as though I can hear your ass imploding from the future, the final anal instrumentality of the Reifags echoing through space and time to this very thread.
That was the trigger, but you could see that she had more deeply assessed her actions and deeply regretted them to a suicidal level, declaring herself a fool. How much is spite and how much is remorse is up to interpretation, but she clearly makes the case that she has been a part of an ungodly experiment.
As for killing Shinji? Love to see evidence of that. She appeared to be unarmed. I think she wanted him to live on knowing that his father had killed his mother, grow the resentment against Gendo just that much more. Turn his son against him.
>>117268212 >Sure it is when you obviously fail to grasp the source material If that were the case you'd be able to argue it not just say "rewatch". This is damage control from you. As expected.
>I never agreed to such a thing nor said so. I don't care, if you don't, then that's my victory. I say that "the asukafag", here with direct quotation: >>117265604
>I merely harp on realism because it's one thing that Reifags cannot argue for. But we can, and we do.
The realism lies in the portrayal of the character. Rei is more consistent with how a damaged person who is neglected thinks, while Asuka is more of a static narrative device.
I see you're trying to upset me by acting superior, but it doesn't work. Only cold hard facts and arguments work. The fact that you're trying this hard is just reassuring, since it means you have nothing.
As for Anno, he himself explains Rei as a person to Megumi Hayashibara and in 90's interviews, so even your appeal to authority appears to be fake.
>>117268289 There is no evidence for remorse. Her actions are all dictated by her spiteful emotions. When she breaks down, she breaks down out of realization that she will never be the woman who Gendou desires. She cannot see that her hatred towards her mother is hypocritical because Ritsuko is capable of assessing her actions morally. Ritsuko is literally incapable of looking at things from a moral perspective. Even her own mother felt guilt when she murdered Rei I. But in Ritsuko's ideal world, a world where she receives Gendou's love, there would be no mental breakdown, even if everyone died in the process.
Unlike Misato. Whenever Misato does something wrong, she is visibly distressed by it. Misato repents and tries to move on. She's not always successful, but Misato tries and tries again to get better. Ritsuko just doesn't care.
>>117268399 I don't say that is the case, as a dynamic character can easily be poorly and inconsistently written while the static one needs not. Not inherently, but taking that into account in Evangelion, we get the result I described.
A lot of time passes with NGE, and because Asuka is a static character, she rides on not changing for those ten years inbetween the trauma and now. Every time we fail to see Asuka be introspective and consciously thinking when a realistic character would, it raises some questions. Now add in how this has gone on for her character from start to end. Even in EoE, any development is merely implied at best and never shown.
You then realize that Asuka is completely and entirely defined by her backstory. Her incident with mama.
Now go with Rei, whose backstory involves being killed by Naoko and to be replaced, which forms the basis for Rei's mindset since the start. By the end Rei does not let that define her, this is a conscious action on her side. The second realistic facet of Rei here is that she doesn't reject it for the sake of rejecting it, she does so when it is wroth it and opportune for her. There is a judgement-call in Rei that exists not in Asuka, who is always a slave to her character.
Shikinami is not like Asuka Soryu here. She is dynamic since her introduction in 2.0, but not necessarily a better character.
>>117268424 >If that were the case you'd be able to argue it not just say "rewatch". This is damage control from you. As expected.
No, I just expect Reifags to know what they're talking about and I do not argue from the stance of what they believe, rather what is objetcively present. Ironic, since you claim to hold it in high regard.
>But we can, and we do.
But you try and fail, in actuality.
>I see you're trying to upset me by acting superior
I'm just speaking honestly, if you internalize that as me acting superior to you, that says more about you than it does about me.
> Rei is more consistent with how a damaged person who is neglected thinks, while Asuka is more of a static narrative device.
Rei is the plot device if anything. Without her, the series would need something or someone else to seek out a trigger.
>, so even your appeal to authority appears to be fake.
I never made an appeal to authority though. I will not argue against someone who pulls shit out of thin air as consistently as you are.
Furthermore, you failed to amply address how ridiculous it is to say that Rei is as realistic as Asuka, deflecting off into saying "How much more she embodies a damaged person who is neglected."
I find it humorous that damaging and neglecting are two focal points of yours, yet with your presence you damage Reifags' already notoriously spotty reputation and neglect the source material almost entirely, relying on hyperbolation and feeble grasps at defending a character.
The only reason he jacked off on her was because he had nothing left he could vent his frustrations and depression on. It's no different then Misato trying to fuck Shinji after Kaji died. Asuka even refers to herself as a side dish to Shinji during one of the instrumentality sequences in the Japanese version. She knows he doesn't give a fuck for her in that way.
>>117268289 Every NERV adult is armed. Misato carries her gun where people can see it, yes, but the rest of them conceal their weapons. Ritsuko has a very small gun that can fit in the breastpocket of her labcoat. Kaji hides his gun under the waistband of his trousers.
Surely, Ritsuko intended to kill Shinji if it wasn't for Misato's meddling. What other reason would she have brought him with her? She could easily have told him her information over the phone.
>>117268810 >No, I just expect Reifags Still no rebuttal. The rest is butthurt as usual.
>Rei is the plot device if anything. Without her, the series would need something or someone else to seek out a trigger. So Rei is important as well as a great character? Well we knew that already. A lot rides on Rei, more than once in the show.
>Furthermore, you failed to amply address how ridiculous it is to say that Rei is as realistic as Asuka, deflecting off into saying "How much more she embodies a damaged person who is neglected." I did actually address it, what I'm missing from you is a rebuttal that addresses it.
>I find it humorous that damaging and neglecting are two focal points of yours, yet with your presence you damage Reifags' already notoriously spotty reputation and neglect the source material almost entirely, relying on hyperbolation and feeble grasps at defending a character. That's delusional, you're making things up and that's sad.
>>117268672 Please, I'm not trying to get into the debate itself, I'm interested in the thinking and the reasoning behind it.
So realism is a criteria? And again, if a lack of dynamism is not a strike against a character, like you said, why continue to bring it up? And frankly, you've completely misread what I was saying. Of course a static character can be better written than a shitty character who happens to be dynamic. The question is, all other things being equal, do you feel a dynamic character has more value than a static one?
>>117268622 >Even her own mother felt guilt when she murdered Rei I. But in Ritsuko's ideal world, a world where she receives Gendou's love, there would be no mental breakdown, even if everyone died in the process.
>>117269071 >So realism is a criteria? And again, if a lack of dynamism is not a strike against a character, like you said, why continue to bring it up? Well you should read more thoroughly. Alone it is not a strike necessarily, since I do explain that the quality of the writing comes into play, and actually gave you an example of the end there with two Asuka versions.
It's relevant in NGE because not being dynamic is hurting the credibility of Asuka's character. In the end, she becomes a generic waif whose purpose is to serve as a foil. That Asuka has no conclusion in the TV-series or visible development in EoE is also one negative.
>The question is, all other things being equal, do you feel a dynamic character has more value than a static one? It's such a difficult question to answer. Depends on what you're trying to convey, and if we're assuming they're equal then they are both sucesses in that regard.
In the end all you're asking me, is "which is heavier, one tonne of feathers or one tonne of lead?"
>>117268952 I'm dying here, nothing but off-handed dismissals to sound points. The criticism you lodge so cavalierly against me is ironically better suited to you.
I argued that Rei isn't as realistic as Asuka. You said realism lies in how the character is portrayed. I'd say there's more to it than that.
Just because Rei is shown handling negligence in perhaps one way of thousands, doesn't earse the fact she's an alien space Goddess.
Nothing you say will change the fact that a hot-headed smart human pilot is more realistic than an Alien Space Goddess Clone. What you can do, and already have, is argue that the way she processes her emotions is more realistic, which taking into account most fourteen year-old girls, is obviously wrong.
Most fourteen year-old girls aren't close to mutes who attempt to understand themselves as much as Rei did, and Asuka is proof of that, being more realistic than Rei does, handling her own inescurities in roundabout and sometimes ineffective ways.
>Reifags >your waifu is inferior to my superior waifu, Rei is the center of Evangelion, if a movie doesn't pander to her it's automatically deemed shit and if you disagree then you're an idiot; plenty of crazy autists skewering the meaning and canon behind certain things to make their waifu look better, primarily spoiled and self-entitled
>Asukafags >rabid shipping faggots, will literally harass other sub groups if they disagree that Asuka won the Shinji bowl, were responsible for blacklisting a ton of info in the 90's to the mid 2000's if it didn't fit with their Asushin head canon, are brash and responsible for plenty of image shitposting
>>117269229 She wanted to vent out her frustrations about Gendou first, kill the clones, see Shinji's face, then kill him, culminating everything and preventing Gendou's plans from being realized.
Misato gets in her way so she can't. You must be blind not to see the sadism in Ritsuko when Misato forces her to give them a tour. Ritsuko delights in telling Shinji that his mother is dead, to the point where Misato has to shut her up with a gun.
>>117269217 So basically, you're saying its all situational? Sometimes realism matters and sometimes it doesn't?
I will agree that characters can only really be judge withing the context of their work, but then you bring up what a work is 'trying' to convey. Then you're just in the slippery slope of authorial intent. Shouldn't the metric be simply what a character does convey?
>>117269226 Then again, being an alien space goddess isn't something that makes the character less realistic, when it's a mere technicality at the end of the day.
Neon Genesis Evangelion is a series that keeps fundamentally unrealistic factors. The fact that Asuka is not human as we are, but a Lilin with a tangible soul and the ability to pilot giant fleshbeasts and be reduced to tang, is unrealistic enough.
THEN you add on top that she's a "genius college graduate who's super special because the narrative said so".
Question is, is the offspring of said alien goddess that much more realistic than the alien goddess in human form? Answer is pretty much now since everything in NGE is far removed from reality at it's core.
You also fail to understand the core of what makes something realistic, which isn't how close to normal it is but how close it is to an equivalent person in the same situation. Rei is no mere fourteen year old, she's a severely abused and emotionally neglected child. Children like that often do become reserved, stoic and silent, and of course, incapable of expressing themselves properly.
Social behavior is learned, not innately owned, and Asuka can thank her foster family that raised her that she's not like Rei.
>>117269431 >when it's a mere technicality at the end of the day.
Dismissing something as large as this as a mere technicality is silly and cheap.
>You also fail to understand the core of what makes something realistic
What you take as what makes something realistic is what suits your argument. Realism is not limited to character reaction or behavior.
Does it factor in? Sure.
I'm arguing for surface level realism, and if you have to resort to character reaction, then that's a different argument altogether.
Not every abused and neglected child's defense mechanism is withdrawal. Some seek companionship in gangs, others turn to interaction with others in hobbies, some pick up sports. Some, like Asuka, act out or vest pride in what they're good at or what they can build on.
>>117269401 >I will agree that characters can only really be judge withing the context of their work, but then you bring up what a work is 'trying' to convey. Then you're just in the slippery slope of authorial intent. Shouldn't the metric be simply what a character does convey?
Here's where I agree with you, and I did earlier mention that what a character can convey and what it can PROVE, what it can convince of is important. Because we're people, and we're reading something that's not real, i.e fiction, we need the character to not break our suspension of disbelief too much, which is where realism some times helps.
We don't actually need to consider authorial intent, we need only consider the character and what it can alone represent as well as in conjunction with a story.
If a character makes you think about a concept, makes you reflect on it and wakes you up to something new, that's a good thing in my opinion and something I treasure in characters. If it can convince, that's even better.
>>117269636 >Dismissing something as large as this as a mere technicality is silly and cheap. Just like you dismissed the fact that Asuka is a Lilim and is having telepathic super-sessions with her dead mother instead of a giant clone of an ancient alien?
>Not every abused and neglected child's defense mechanism is withdrawal. Some seek companionship in gangs, others turn to interaction with others in hobbies, some pick up sports. With Rei we know why that is not the case. Her isolated upbringing as well as indoctrination makes that virtually impossible between birth and first appearance in NGE.
Comparing Asuka and Rei is not right since Asuka has a vastly different upbringing, and leads a far more lax life than Rei.
Instead Asuka becomes less realistic here since she does not have any established reason for not changing since after the trauma, being the same character all along. It's a black spot in her character. She also seems less realistic due to the fact that she does not have any inclination to even consider change.
If you're going for "surface level realism", then I don't think you can actually boast being correct about the characters since any take on these characters must understand them and their context in full. If you insist on ignoring the context as well as the characters depth, then you've got no argument.
OK, I'm well aware that Anno is the Jazz musician of anime directors. I know that people have argued for nearly two decades about the notes he didn't play but Ritsuko killing Shinji in cold blood is something I'd need more than just fan speculation for.
>>117269894 I can't offer you anything other than speculation, but just know that it is well founded. Killing Shinji is perfectly within Ritsuko's capacity both mentally and physically. I, for one, am sure that Shinji would have died if not for Misato being there.
>>117269748 It's objective insofar objective means the closest we can come to objective. The objective vs subjective debate is a trap best not stumbled into.
By this standard I find Rei to be a more challenging and meaningful character than Asuka.
If we were to take the author into consideration as well, it's quite clear he's ripping off his favorite Nausicaa character, Kushana. Right down to the scene with the dolls and her mother mistaking her for it. You can consider Asuka a younger, weaker Kushana with more fetishistic eroticism in it.
>>117269811 How so? This thread now consists of a butthurt Asukafag (you) failing to win any arguments whatsoever, and the rest (Reifag) actually sharing ideas and praising the characters.
>>117270047 I for one always avoid to debate Marifags, I know it's pointless and I'd just be wasting their time telling them things they don't care for or don't want to know.
As much as people don't like it, myself included, Mari is her to stay. Why get mad at Marifags?
It's not the same as with Asukafags, since they're continuously spreading their lies and deceit everywhere they go, as if to make up for their own insescurites regarding their waifu of choice.
They don't accept Rei or even the original Asuka because it's clear cut that Rei is the superior "person", so to speak. That's why you'll find them clinging to Shikinami Asuka, the spinoffs or debate character quality purely on "who wins da Shinjibowl".
I like Rei because the circumstances of her birth left no room for love except tiny scraps from an obsessive sociopath. Even though people think she's an empty doll still tries her hardest to find her sense of self anyway, even though in the end it might have been futile
I like asuka because even though she nursed PTSD from the age of 7 she managed to find strength through the will to excel. Even though people think she's a bitch she still charges forward when others would have surrendered to despair, even though in the end the psychological brittleness that is the cost of simply grinding forward showed its cost
I like Shinji because even though he falters he still finds his courage again and again. Even though people think he's a pussy with his 'i musn't run away' speil, he actually doesnt most of the time, and when he does he finds it within himself to sack up and move forward. Amongst all the other characters he's surprisingly the most resilient despite the way he looks, and ultimately chooses an uncertain future reality of possibly more misery over a false paradise
>>117270023 It's not a trap and I'm not bringing it up just as a little 'gotcha', I genuinely believe it's the crux here. What happens when someone else disagrees? If the standard is just what the individual finds more compelling, how can you object to someone else's preference?
I can't believe people are arguing about which faction won this conversation we're having, holy shit
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