In fact, Nasu even goes on to say that Lancer could easily win the entire fourth war if they just kept to this strategy.
>By the way, in the Fourth Holy Grail War, the following strategy would insure the absolute victory of Team Lancer:
>Kayneth must not let his Servant recognize such things as honour on the battle field or knights' pride. He must let Diarmuid realize that the Holy Grail War was merely dirty chores that needed to be done. >In order to fulfill the previous item, Kayneth must avoid any contact between Diarmuid and Saber with his best effort. >In combat, Kayneth must prioritize securing an exit. In a battle, missions would be considered accomplished if Diarmuid scored one hit with Gae Buidhe. Repeat this tactic, and exhaust all hostile teams. >Capitalize on Team Berserker. Team Berserker was a powerful enemy against all other teams, but Lancer had an advantage due to compatibility. It would be optimal to let Berserker destroy the other teams and reach the finale. He could then be defeated at that point.
In b4 all the "primaries" come running in going "fucking secondary kill yourself, Kayneth would've been fucked by every single master/servant because they're all superior to all the weak pieces of worthless shits in Fate/Zero. Go die in a fire" etc, etc. With that said. Kayneth would most likely have a bigger chance in the Fifth, since he'd be going up against mostly children. He wouldn't win though, there's still Kirei, Gilgamesh, Medea and EMIYA to deal with, so unless he got tagged up with a proper good servant, he wouldn't make it too far. After all, servants are supposed to be superior to humans, with a save few exceptions that Nasu has hacked in. I do wish Kayneth had done better last time, we never really got to his necromancy skills in Zero, would've been neat shit.
>>118123638 The joke about that strategy is that it's impossible for that team, even though it is possible.
They "could" have won if they did that, but they could not do that because it was not within their personalities. It would require Kayneth to be massive levels of competent and humble. Humble in even ways that being crippled could not grant him.
The willingness to not be fighting for your ego, but for the greater victory even if you have to play coward the entire time before that.
>>118123756 I never implied a fight between the lancers. I won't go on about any powerlevel arguments either. It'd all depend on who Kayneth would've got fornthe Fifth war, which could basically be anyone since he could order a relic from who knows where.
>>118123756 >Diarmuid should not be able to beat Cu Chulainn,
>There's no way
It's already directly noted why Diamund would win
> Q. If Cu Chulainn and Diarmuid, both of the same Lancer class, fought each other, who would win? Cu Chulainn, when he first was introduced, was being pushed back by Saber, but in Fate/Zero, Diarmuid was the one who was doing the pushing right? Which would mean that Diarmuid is stronger?
>A. Diarmuid has excellent Master backup (Prana supply amount), so in terms of a pure battle of firepower (this is probably referring to Prana output to stats, not NP strength), so the battle should go to Diarmuid. In Japan, both of them get zero bonuses from terrain effect (recognition factor), but if they were fighting in Ireland.......probably Cu Chulainn.
Better master support so he can get closer to what he was in his prime, while Cu has a shit master.
>>118123797 Medea is weak, sure, but since Kayneth is a magi, in a competition of magi on magi, Kayneth would be toast since the opponent is a servant. And although Medea has her weaknesses, she still does have some badass traits to her. Personally though, I'd have loved to hear much more about her, I'd pick Gilles de Rais over her anytime though.
>>118123860 Isn't Diamud just a Gay Bulge away from death?
>>118123923 >However this would fail, since Diamund of all people would recognize Cu and know about his weapon. So it's either a draw since Diamund would haul ass and get away so he can't get the Bulge, or Cu just chucks the thing and hits him while he tries to leave.
>>118123981 >Archer can avoid it by simply getting out of the way before the name is called out You are formulating >Running away as fast as he can pretty favourable Deermud has also no way to avoid the ranged Gae Bolg either
>>118123981 >Archer can avoid it by simply getting out of the way before the name is called out, Dia could do the same. Except Deermud then has no defense against the thrown version unlike Archer. Even if he could somehow fight while remaining out of range of thrust Gae Bolg (??), that would just encourage Cu to use the thrown version.
>>118124049 But we never established if Kayneth would even have Diarmuid. This whole thread lacks the most important factor for good speculative argumentations, so we're pretty much shooting in the dark here. Sure, Kayneth would do pretty good if it was Master on Master, I could even dare say he could have a chance against Kirei since he has god knows what up his sleeve, but against the servants he'd need a servant, which we don't know who it would be.
Kayneth's problem was servant compatibility. If he had been allowed Alexander, he probably could have gotten a lot further in the war, so the important question is, "What servant?"
>>118123640 >In b4 all the "primaries" come running in going "fucking secondary kill yourself, Kayneth would've been fucked by every single master/servant because they're all superior to all the weak pieces of worthless shits in Fate/Zero. Go die in a fire" etc, etc Is this really necessary, you're just creating problems off the bat, fuck off with this shit.
>>118123797 I don't think so, not after she's pulled her draining the town act. At that point, it's proper magus vs godly magic user, and both Nasu and Urobuchi like to make magi inferior to both. The only reason Rin won is because she didn't rely on pure magic.
>>118124162 I still don't buy that. I mean sure, he will most likely not hit the heart but the fact is that he can Gae Golg 7 times in a row and getting stabbed 7 times undodgable in the chest with a cursed spear is pretty effective at killing somebody.
>>118124302 Well he knows a lot of varied arts as the anime/LN suggests. But he never really had a chance to be on his badassest, did he now? After all, he was fighting some pretty nasty opponents, and never really posessed the upper hand on a situation.
>Nasu: For sure. But since he knows about it, he wouldn’t approach Lancer in the first place. If it looked like Lancer was seriously getting ready to use Gae Bolg, Archer would already be frantically getting as far away as possible.
>Takeuchi: Ah, I see. That sort of tactic is always an option, huh? So what about the thrown version?
Diamund is four times as Irish as the average Irishman, so he knows all about the legend of Cu Choo and how the spear works. Obviously he'll back the fuck off if he realizes who this guy is at all, and get out of the way if he sees him about to use his shit.
Bolg has a range of 2-4 units, so getting out of the way fast is doable if you realize it before he says the name and are fast enough.
>>118124381 Having a spear in your chest ,just barely missing the heart is also pretty painful. >>118124339 He'd probably win if he were to do that. But that will never happen because Kotomine. >>118124416 How about you read the VN?
>>118124475 >Having a spear in your chest ,just barely missing the heart is also pretty painful. That's not my point though, if it's not actually shutting down the opponent, isn't he leaving himself open to a counterattack if he tries to do it again immediately?
Question goes on the first thread I found. What the fuck is this? Are they doing minor changes to the VN? Rin's jewels should be almost, if not depleted by now. Thinking better, it doesn't really matter how many lives Berserker loses since he will be completely skewed by Gilgamesh and the fight between Rin and Ilya was nice. It was way too unexpected but it's cool, I guess. Saber's mana reserves are fucked after that Excalibur, though.
>>118124514 If Cu Chulainn only cares about winning, a counterattack doesn't matter. He has a pretty high rank of battle continuation and can basically keep fighting while having his body almost completely bisected.
>>118124472 Yes but if he gets out of range the best he can manage is a draw, if Cu doesn't use the ranged version. >>118124514 Lancer is the 2nd fastest servant if I remember correctly. Also it didn't leave him open against Saibah.
>>118124538 >>118124605 I think they just wanted an excuse to show off God Hand so anime-only viewers will better understand the context of the Gil vs Berserker fight later. And also make Saber look cooler.
>>118124205 >so we're pretty much shooting in the dark here. You mean like the worms?
I think Kayneth would have Rider, assuming Shinji buggers off and die of a Japanese cold in this alternate reality. He'd be able to insult and abuse her in the same way he does Deermood. It fits well in my mind.
Kayneth summons Alexander because no Waver will steal his relic.
>Medusa can't be summoned, so another hero is summoned by the Earth goddess mirror. The classes she falls upon: Rider and maybe Berserker are out. She, with Archer and Saber, are the last Servants summoned. >Kayneth summons Diarmuid as Saber because Cu chulainn is already summoned as Lancer.
Either way, Shirou's out of the war, because he was a spare master chosen.
>>118124856 The stuff he brought with him were other mystic codes. Just like Rin utilizes her gems as mystic codes. I have no clue who would win. In pure Abilities Rin is superior but Kayneth has atleast some battle experience
I have heard conflicting things about magic crests. About transplanting them, I have heard both you have to be related or it 100% won't work, and that you can transplant it to a non relative it is just a very dangerous and will probably kill them.
Hypothetically, if the second one is true, if Shirou requested it, could he get a part of the Emiya crest?
Even more hypotethical, if they would be willing to actually do that, and it didn't fucking kill him, could he actually make use of any of it? Since time manipulation, and vampire bullshit have nothing to do with swords and sword related accessories.
>>118124977 Kayneth brought more tricks to the party and has more experience, but Rin is the superior magus and will go out of bounds and fight dirty heretical if she feels like it. In a way that any real magus or anyone that knows anything about magus would scoff at.
>>118125047 That would require her to be as retarded as kayneth and actualy walk into that building. But yes Kayneth will mostlikely win if he has all his toys. >>118125083 You have to subtract his retardation though.
If it's Lancer Diamuid, he's Archer's weakness. Archer's entire arsenal is just magecraft like Saber's armor.
That's the same reason why Zero Berserker was weak against Diarmuid. Rin would be fucked. Diarmuid, just like EMIYA, have the same planning ability. Without Seiba to wake up his inner honorfag, he'll fuck with them.
>>118125118 I don't think he was really all that retarded. He was just always in the wrong place in the wrong time. I bet he got some of that sour luck stat off Diarmuid. You don't get to be a melon for nothing.
>>118125187 It's not so much butthurt, as any real magus would consider this new age stuff kind of bullshit. Saber is there to agree with her to show it isn't just bullshit, but even a secondary observer agrees it's just uncouth and shit.
90% of the mages in clocktower would find it the same kind of bullshit. It's just not something you do, like you don't pull a gun in a sword fight.
>>118125278 It is a solid read. Don't let /a/ get to you with it's shitty behaviour on secondaries and primaries. Just know that it's a whole different genre than F/Z is. Other is action/tragedy and other is action/slice of life/tragedy, and FSN tells its stories from a narrower perspective.
>>118125428 >What magus don't do is punch shit. That's just not magus-like. Isn't the Tohsaka family basicaly founded on magical martial arts in combination with gem magecraft? The Edelfelts the same if I remember correctly
>>118125077 Nope, AFAIK grail winners go: 1) Nobody. Everyone died. 2) Nobody. They all died again. 3) Whatever the Tohsaka summoned, as well as one of the twin Sabers (technically) if you follow the theory one Edefelt sister ran off with Rin's ancestor. Though the grail war failed overall. 4) Saber/Archer split 5) Either Saber or Rider depending on route.
>>118125417 Yeah, Kayneth is a master of psychology. He tricked a fellow master into "stealing" a servant that he already knew all the strengths and weaknesses of. He would easily be able to trick a teenage girl into his hotel room.
>>118125278 >Wonder if we'll ever get to see him in action without the Law of Inverse Ninja Strength in effect.
Hassan =/= Hassan
There are twenty-seven different Hassan, all look relatively the same, but they're all different people with different Noble Phantasms. They look the same so you can't know which one you're dealing with.
The one in Zero had the ability to split his body, because he had multiple personalities in life like the Ryougi.
The Hassan in F/SN had the power of Voodoo, as he could make a fake heart outside the opponent and crush it, and they would die.
Only one Hassan is multiple people like that, the others have no inverse ninja problem. 4th Hassan was not the entire Hassan organization, he was just one guy with a talent for splitting himself.
>>118125528 >Her father was an useless basement dweller. Fucking failure >Nagato saw both thaumaturgy and the martial arts as being equal. As such he had the idea of grasping Akasha by passing through the state of nothingness (from bujutsu)
You realize dragons breathe prana? Her magical level numbers are posted in CM which are natural to Seiba, even if she's weakened as a Servant, I think it was 1000 or more.
You can summon Arturia as Caster, but she doesn't know spells or shit because she never bothered to train as magus. But she'll shit in the majority of magi if she had become Merlin's apprentice. Merlin's special apparently he is even better than people who have the 5 sorceries in Type Moon, a "mystery."
Archer's weapons are essentially magecraft. Even in CM indicate he doesn't really have a real NP but UBW (the reality marble) works as replacement.
It'll be destroyed on touch and dissipate because of the spear. Lancer is just his natural counter. He's more agile and stronger too. All his tricks can be countered because Lancer too have the same skill.
He's fucked against Deermud. Zero Servants have terrible compatibility for EMIYA I think.
>>118125657 >Her magical level numbers are posted in CM which are natural to Seiba, even if she's weakened as a Servant, I think it was 1000 or more. Could you please post the source because I can't find that part. Also doesn't she also have to use mana for prana burst?
Fate/complete material III and Fate/Extra CCC (to explain why Liz and Arturia are OP in prana levels).
Dragons generate prana via breathing. Saber's magic circuits are a dragon's. She's weakened because muh summon and because Excalibur uses shitload of prana (and Shirou sucks her dry by healing his injuries).
>>118126249 Nothing in her stats indicate as such, there's plenty of inhuman heroes who have skills or other factors indicating what they are. Saber is probably human for all intents and purposes despite her mana circuits being so weird.
Now for the real question: Can either Shiki do shit against Avalon?
>>118126174 That varies, I get different results on multiple devices and I'm not logged on gmail in either one. I think most of the people that were getting away with only checking the box are now back to two step captcha like the others
Wanted to become god, everyone will devote their lusts to her until their all die horribly because she drained them.
Literally the biggest slut ever
Kind of like a Chaos SMT end; devote yourself to your base desires for eternity until you all kill each other in my name, give me your lust, that is the only worth you have in existing. She was responsible for a lot of mass suicides or something, was called similar to Shirou in some way, as though she actually enjoyed being used and betrayed.
Something like that anyway, no one is sure about all of the details.
>Rin :: No, she’s not opposed to anyone. This is just the data we’ve managed to uncover, but…can I, Rani?
>Rani :: Yes. Our theory is that she is an internationally wanted digital criminal. She is a former leader of a certain virtual religious cult. That cult no longer exists, but…
>Rin :: It, well…all of them, men and women, adored her so much they killed themselves. People who fell deeply in love, people who were addicted to maltreating her, people who were dependent on conversation with her, people who hated her to death, people who lost themselves in carnality…all kinds of things.
>Rani :: All with the same result. Suicide. Even offline, people who got involved with her would almost invariably commit suicide.
>Rin :: And among those, even virtual police investigators and intelligence operatives from the Western European Plutocracy got taken in. What’s really incredible is that it seems that intelligence operative died in order to save her from her adherents who were going to kill her. …according to the records, it looks like the operative was her lover.
>Leo :: According to Julius, that individual was antisocial, and not the type to pursue women.
>Rani :: …Kiara Sesshouin’s mental structure is impossible for me to understand. She is far too incomprehensible. She saved many people. But those people trampled her good intentions underfoot. She was betrayed by human beings countless times. Yet still, she never abandoned her resolve to give them salvation. Or no, it would be more correct to say…she just didn’t mind being betrayed. It sounds good, to have fortitude of spirit, but in her case it’s been taken too far. It may be odd coming from me, but…that really is nothing other than being a machine without emotion.
>>118126817 >Rin :: Right. It’s almost like being obsessed with superheroes? I’ve even heard her called “the last prophet.” It’s clear that she was the one suffering the most. But, it’s also the fact of the situation that she was the cause of mass suicide and hostilities. Consequently, with the sponsorship of the Western European Plutocracy, she became wanted worldwide. There are people who defended her, but…the Plutocracy had the backing of the Holy Church. Those guys hadn’t managed to turn out a single prophet in all these years, after all. I’d guess that they couldn’t overlook being passed over while some woman in the Orient showed up and got treated like a prophet.
>Leo :: That would be Miss Tohsaka’s personal prejudice. After all, the Church also acknowledges Kiara Sesshouin as a modern prophet. The problem is that the one who issued that opinion was a certain Cardinal…one of the candidates for the next Pope, you see. The Holy Church didn’t decide to apprehend Kiara because she was an eyesore. They acknowledged her as the greatest enemy to the preservation of their own faith.
>Rin :: I, it’s not wrong be excessively talented! I mean, what about Kiara’s personal virtues!?
>Leo :: They’d have to be called magic, wouldn’t they. After all, it was so much that she could liberate the aged, close to death and attached only to life itself, from that suffering. The part that disturbs me — those aged people, after they were touched by Kiara Sesshouin’s salvation, became perfect human beings. Touched by Kiara Sesshouin, such a short time before passing away…it was just for two months, but his humanity was real, that kind of prophet. Consequently, she was pursued by the Church. Betrayed by both faith and people, she was slandered as a murderer.
>>118126970 Who decided to become a god, after backstabbing many to become all powerful.
That's literally how the plot started, she liberated Sakura-program's heart so it basically became human rather than just a machine as she developed a heart, Sakura inadvertently created BB, BB tried to save everyone(mainly MC for certain reasons), was warped by Kiara, ended up creating god programs to protect the path against the MC's until she could obtain the Mooncell in order to save the one she wanted to, all along Kiara was helping the MC's along and then snacking on the god programs once MC defeated them in order to grow stronger, was snaking on main Sakura as she didn't know why she was getting sick lately, and once MC was able to talk BB down from sacrificing herself at the end Kiara came from behind and was finally strong enough to steal even BB's power. Thus she had the power of a lot of gods and the power of the Mooncell itself due to Andersen creating her Fate along the way, but due to a about five stupid mistakes on her part she fell to the protagonist in battle right after achieving godhood before she could reshape the world as she wished. She absorbed specifically programs that wouldn't want to hurt the MC(Sakuras), Andersen's NP can only give you a bad ending if you use it wrong, picked a fight with someone not of Earth who's servant had reached the root, etc.
I wish nasuverse specified which version of each legend was the "canon" one for every servant. It'd be much easier to compare servants that way. Though looking at arturia, it seems he uses composite versions from various legends.
>Kiara :: They loved me by their own will, were driven to despair by their own deeds, and at the furthest end of love cut off their lives. I never wanted them to die. They simply drowned in me. They idolized their desires, and wasted their lives on their lusts. I want to love all people equally. And I want to be loved in return. That is my desire. It is hopelessly selfish. Which means…I can never belong to one person alone. That reality made all of them despair, and thirst, and mad with lust for me, in the end they gave up their lives. I could never find fault with such an earnest love. I wanted to save them. They wanted me to save them. It’s just that the result of that was death.
>So saying, she smiles. Sadly. With a beauty that pierces the viewer’s heart. All the hair on my body might stand on end. This woman is good. Her intentions are wholly, perfectly good. Therefore — I can’t help but feel that, spiritually, she is not human. As a religious leader, Kiara treated many people equally, and doled out her love sparingly. As a result, her followers’ desires swelled hugely.
>“I want you to love only me —“ >“I want you to love me more, more, limitlessly –“
>But that was not allowed. As all people are equal to Kiara Sesshouin, she had no love to give to individuals. …and then, burning up with their desires, her followers fell to ruin. Because they knew the prophet called Kiara, they essentially realized that there is no salvation in this world and fell into despair. …what irony. If they had parted from Kiara perhaps they could have returned to their lives, but having known something like the love of a Bodhisattva, they were unable to stray from the palm of her hand —
>>118130922 That was only because he had a vault filled with every "I win button" in the existence of humanity, and when one would fail he'd pull out a second, third, and fourth.
>my flying ancient babylonian jet got blown out of the sky, better pull shoots lazer swords out of the Gate of Babylon >that didn't work, better pull out Enuma Elish >whoops, I'm in a tight spot, better use the Chains of Heaven to bail myself out
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