>>119379838 >The point of the entire character is that its FLAWED And James Bond only sleeps with married women and sluts because he can't commit, which definitely constitutes a flaw. He's still a Gary Stu.
>>119380132 He's pretty Gary Stu. If by normal standards, he has a superhuman ability to not care about social interaction and the approval of others. From the point of view of a shut-in who watches anime all day, he's a hero.
We had this EXACT same "discussion" in another thread yesterday. If you think hachiman is a gary stu you are literally fucking retarded and probably some filipino who watches bad anime all day and thought he was "deep"
Mary Stu/Gary Stu is just a fanfic characters that steals the spotlight from the actual main character of whatever work the fanfic is based on. That is the original and only meaning of the term. Using the term for anything else is "Tumblr landwhale complaining about character she doesn't like" Tier.
You are just whining about romanticized takes on a loner (Hachiman), gamer (Kirito), NEET (Sora) and so on.
>>119380496 I have to admit that it's hard for me not to care about those things. I think it's just really busying yourself with so much shit that you don't give half a fuck about anything. Hachiman probably WANTS to be accepted in some way, but believes he will never be able to.
>>119380515 >In order to be a gary stu, he has to be a gary stu for everybody Who is a Gary Stu for everybody?
You could write some super religious character that always acts godly, and people would call him a Gary Stu, but only religious people would see him that way. Similarly, you could write a manslut that always sleeps around as a Gary Stu, but people who are against sleeping around wouldn't see him that way.
Sherlock Holmes is a Gary Stu, but he never shows interest in women. There are people who find that pathetic.
>>119380363 Then I'm a Gary Stu as well, since I couldn't give a shit what others think. You get bigger problems in life as you grow up, and you'll stop thinking of shit like how many people disapprove of you; they can just join the line-up of all the others that feel the same.
>>119381076 In the novels, he never did. But Arthur Conan Doyle didn't really give two fucks. He only continued the novel series because fans wouldn't let it go. So when they made a TV adaptation of Sherlock Holmes, Doyle was like, "Kill him off, marry him off, I don't care what you do with him". Since then, he's been paired with Irene Adler in some adaptations, but he was still asexual in the source material.
>>119381855 Tatsuya is actually a good example of a Gary Stu as the word originally intended. All powerful, nearly everyone he meets loves him, those who don't are proven childish/wrong, even the rare who stay that way respect him, can accomplish feats beyond what is thought possible. He has the whole recipe.
It's not really lack of flaws that make a mary sue/gary stu (though it does contribute) it's lack of meaningful flaws and presence as a character Tatsuya did have some flaws, mostly his inability to feel, not that it even impacted him negatively for more than a few moments. Every main character should be special in some way, why else would the story revolve around them, but the idea of Mary Sue was invented for characters who take all tension from a plot with their ability to solve any situation with the flick of a wrist.
>>119382125 Originally, a Gary Stu or Mary Sue was an original character fanfiction authors would shove into their fanfiction, who was the best at everything and would have all the characters love them.
Overtime, the meaning has been watered down to something like, "A self-insert that's perfect in every way possible, who everyone wants to be".
>>119381977 He's damn close. EVERY single time he was essentially "in danger" of a loss he turns around at the last second and then he explains it was all according to plan, all along, the entire time.
>>119381697 Same with poor writing, shit plot, bad execution etc. Nigga you really expect me to think you even know what good writing is when the most intellectually stimulating thing these people have experienced is fucking evangelion?
>>119381317 Not realistically flawed, but let's be fair here, he's well-rounded and despite what some of the movies play him up as, not Ass-pull Godmode tier like some LN protagonist. The books go out of their way to paint him as someone who's competent but never the best at anything. There are characters, villains especially, that surpass him in one way or the other, shooting, driving, brawling.
Hell, don't forget he pretty much only survives Casino Royale through outside intervention(Soviet agent interrupting his torture and killing Le Chiffre, Vesper committing suicide to keep assassins off him), among other entries.
He's not quite a John le Carré character, but what he does is emotionally and psychologically damaging to him and others. He's a borderline rapist sometimes and it's presented matter-of-factly. Sure, he gets laid a lot but it's not like a fucking harem show, he's at least forging some kind of connection which every woman he meets and gets heartbroken quite a few times.
Does he echo Fleming's viewpoints? Sure, and they're a product of his time, or /pol/ at his worst, but outside of monologues he's never particularly sanctimonious outside of the virtues of coffee.
He's the protagonist, yes, but not a gravity well on the narrative the same way /a/'s usual suspects are.
>>119382491 He is a Gary Stu though. He's a loser who doesn't give a fuck and never puts himself out there to be laughed at, unless he's helping someone out and purposely making himself look bad. He doesn't say awkward things or act like a sperglord, the way real people like him do. He's everything that hikkis wish they were.
>>119382653 And yet I think to myself why do feel what he's doing is right. He has no sense of social justice whatsoever why can't I be like him. Things would seem interesting through the eyes of him is he really a hero or a queer and, why does he want to do with himself.
>>119379838 >character is that its FLAWED And yet he's portrayed as some kind of heroic martyr who we're supposed to sympathize with to ridiculous lengths and maybe even idolize to some extent. It's pretty fucked up.
>>119382748 Either stop trolling or fuck off. That's clear as day not the definition of a gary stu and I shouldn't even have to explain why, unless you really are retarded.
And for anyone else in this thread too retarded to understand why, read this shit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
>inb4 "8man is wish fullfillment, therefor he's gary stu!" If your wish is to be a loner hated by most and can't have a successful relationship with the only two hot girls who'll acknowledge him, then you're an autistic sperglord
>>119379838 8man is only flawed in a self-sacrificial way. While he does look down on others, he doesn't hesitate to help them if they call out to him. In the end, he does nothing but good things for others.
While I don't necessarily agree that he's a gary stu, I do find issue with the later volumes where Yahari has basically turned into a harem with some of the most stand out girls in school falling for him. It's quite absurd.
>>119383047 >then you're an autistic sperglord That describes most of /a/ and otaku culture in general. These are people who have made a culture around rejecting real women and real socialization in favor waifus and online socializing.
That said, Hachiman has qualities that most people in general would aspire to, namely his ability to not give a fuck and not get himself into awkward situations by chasing after the approval of others.
>>119382895 Funny since in an interview, Watari explicitly states that Hachiman isn't someone to be admired. The anime's a total fuckup in glorifying that portion of him which is why animeonly fags don't really have an opinion.
>>119383172 You mean Yukino, Yui, and arguably Iroha? There's no one else.
In essence, language accounts for a mere 30% of human communication. The other 70% is made up of information collected from eye movements and other body language. With that, even a loner who never takes part in conversation can pull off 70% of what we consider communication. This a quote from 8man and he clearly is a fucking gary stu.
>>119382472 It really depends on which Bond we're talking about. Ever since Brosnan, Bond has been shown as badass and swag, but deeply flawed with some serious issues. In contrast, back in the Connery days for example, Bond was a one dimensional Stu who fucked up everyone and was in the moral highground every time.
>>119383263 I'd argue that at least two others have a crush on him, if not outright like him. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that 8man's 'flaws' are really downplayed or nonexistent in recent volumes in favour of the developing love triangle/pentagon.
>>119383444 Yeah but let's be real, 8man and sensei ending up in any sort of romantic relationship would be either a complete asspull or would require some twisted reasoning as to why that makes sense for them.
>>119383516 >Bond being really good at his job doesn't make him a Gary Stu. No, but Bond getting the job done and getting the girl every time with swagger and no sort of meaningful conflict to his character beyond risk of his life is Gary Stu.
People shit on Craig's Bond all the time, but let's be real - he's probably the most nuanced Bond yet and not just a walking stereotype.
>>119383523 There's 2 more volumes, no? Plenty of time to wrap up loose plot threads are build up romance with X character. Hell, progress wasn't made with Yukino until literally this volume.
>>119378171 You want to self-insert yourself as a loser with no friends, who has just started having women take notice of him, and he has the balls to mouth off to anyone. Dream a little bigger anon See>>119380067
>>119383707 There are people who don't give a fuck what others think about them, but none of them are lonely virgins.
Hachiman is a Gary Stu because he's an outcast like the audience is, but unlike them, he doesn't worry about what other people think and doesn't make a fool of himself. Meanwhile, he lives in a world where it's the popular, attractive people who are always saying dumb things, while he just sighs and shakes his head.
>>119382051 Animeoyfag or LN reader? In the anime, I admit that he does appear Stuish.
However, in the light novel he is characterized as a emotionally and socially crippled teenager whose only goal is to make his sister happy. He cares for nothing else and a lot of other characters who have some idea of the extent of his abilities either fear him, hate him or love him. He is overpowered and that is irritating at times however it makes sense since he was created that way through genetics and upbringing.
I find it hard to consider him a perfect character who everyone loves and nothing can go wrong for in light of those circumstances.
>>119383625 >Hell, progress wasn't made with Yukino until literally this volume Maybe as a romantic relationship, but his development with Yukino as a friend has been developed since volume 1. Remember the cultural festival?
>>119382653 He has a pretty pathetic personality at start but what he did later on was extraordinary though. Maybe not that high but the works he has done in Service club were certainly more than what your average high school student would have done, in both their own life or in 8man position
>>119383961 Ken reached his goal of creating a harem and even got a new cast on board with it in the sequel LN. He's also just an entertaining likable guy with his own issues each of the girls he knew first helped him get through.
Hachiman is a real loser here's why and my points are, more blunt and real than anyone else alright. >8man is so slef centered >he is a dick to people even if he knows them >he's an immoral twit who likes his sister a bit to much I say >so fucking deep with his philosophical views on things and their his views are negitive hlaf the time >is a terribale fucking flirt with girls >lazy bum >talks to himself way to much >likes boys with small penisis who look like girls >used to be an otaku >nobody likes him even if he doesn't say anything >to cocky at times >try's at times to play bad guy and good guy >virgin What else needs to be said I respect him but he try's so hard not to fit in for what purpose. He's clearly a gary stu folks prove me wrong. And someone stop 8man he's just making himself look like a fool.
>>119384590 >So sleeping around with a bunch of women isn't taking advantage of women? Not if they're just looking for a quick fling, too. The concept of a womanizer comes from the idea that men just want sex, but women want commitment. That isn't true all the time.
>>119380363 If you notice, the guy does care. However he justifies his loneliness as just something that is, something that can't be changed. He takes "pride" in it because he's grown to see no other way he can live his high school life. It's hopelessness and delusion at the fact that he can't change his situation, so he tries to take "pride" in it so it doesn't hurt.
>>119382653 He's a pathetic guy, but at the same time he's a good guy. Like he comes through for people despite complaining all the way, like Zaimokuza. He looks down on people not because he truly believes his way of life is great, but rather to grant himself the delusion that his life is fine, that it's fine to be alone and isolated. All of his smugness and general being an asshole is pretty much coping with his belief that things can't change for the better, that it's fine for everything to stay the way they are.
>>119384994 That's the thing, he does constantly think about other people, deriding their lifestyle as meaningless and fleeting. It's pure jealousy at the fact they can live fulfilling school lives, the fact they can have the wonderful school life while he's stuck being alone and a loser. It colors his essays, his view on life, self justification to keep up the pretense of happiness.
>>119383807 You have been saying this same fucking garbage since yesterday. Stop.
Not giving a fuck does not make a character a gary stu, and it doesn't even APPLY to hachiman because he DOES give a fuck but is too much of a fucking basket case and will always rationalize away that he doesn't care.
>>119383704 >You want to self-insert yourself as a loser with no friends, who has just started having women take notice of him, and he has the balls to mouth off to anyone. No, but i'm sure most of /a/ does
>>119381421 Why? if everybody here says having severe social flaws disqualifies you from being a Gary Stu, then Sora is even more flawed than 8man in that concept. >But he always wins So, Oliver Atom is a Gary Stu? It's not his victory alone, most of the time Shiro is the one who does most of the work.
>>119383902 >However, in the light novel he is characterized as a emotionally and socially crippled teenager whose only goal is to make his sister happy. Uh, no. He is characterized as a robot whose only goal is to make his sister happy.
>He cares for nothing else and a lot of other characters who have some idea of the extent of his abilities either fear him, hate him or love him. Everyone is always in awe over how awesome he is or love him. Anyone who DOESN'T is usually either a bad guy, or is proven wrong and they begin to love him soon anyways.
>I find it hard to consider him a perfect character who everyone loves and nothing can go wrong for in light of those circumstances. He's a Stu. Anyone who's good or matters loves him and rarely does anything actually go wrong for him. Keep in mind that he doesn't give a fuck about his 'tragic' situation, so the viewer/reader wouldn't either.
>>119385228 >more context Like what? him being the distant relative of the strongest being in the universe? or his sisters trained him to be a super capable guy? That doesn't change the fact that he is a Gary Stu though.
>>119381421 >Kirito >Gary Stu He's that autist that spends thousands of hours in his MMO and absolutely destroys everyone at it through a combination of dedication and skill. There's nothing stu about him.
>>119386044 Why do you even care that much about someone's opinion of your self-insert? Grow up, christ.
>>119386153 Like being the son of one of the three artificial people or whatever they were called from that world and being trained form birth specifically for the purpose of being sent to the world to accomplish what his mother was supposed to do, not just to be a super capable guy.
He was just capable of doing what he did, he was made specifically to do it. His entire existence up to the end of Isekai is defined by it.
Don't think anyone beats Onii-sama in terms of Gary Stu. Literally able to do whatever the plot demands him to do -- martial arts? speed shooting? wallhack? invent levitation? be a great brother? nuke things at a distance? yet still somehow have time to hang out with friends? well you got it, Onii-sama does it all.
>>119386041 Most of his family hates his guts or is scared of him. His cousins' father wants to lock him away in the basement. His aunt wants to control and constrain him. His military group view as a tool rather than a person. He can't give a shit about anything other than his sister. He is born and raised as a weapon and he will remain as one until his death. Also he is not the most powerful person in his world. He nearly got his ass kicked by an American the same age as him. He is not the smartest. A guy at another high school is. He is not the best at martial arts. His sensei is.
I can't view him as a stew in light of those facts.
>>119386041 Well Morisaki, Shippou, Ichijou and George don't particularly love him and still want to win against him even if they respect him. The one also wants to get in the imouto's panties so he can't outwardly show his distaste too much. Though if you can name the only people who dislike him versus the huge cast of characters who like him it's proving the stu point.
>>119387607 You also forgot that he's just average looking.
Lina conveniently loses because she starts getting wet for him and is too naive for a soldier. Masaki loses because he freaks out he kills him and stops in his tracks. George only discovered 1 cardinal code when Tatsuya's ES is hinted to be able to uncover all 13 easily. Maya was supposed to be stronger than Tatsuya but he beats her anyway. I find it hard to see the sympathy when Tatsuya's supposed flaws and BS abilities actually make him more efficient and badass. Everyone else looks stupid for having emotions and not being robots. If anything the story glorifies Tatsuya as a robot.
>>119388047 >A self-insert is a character that has functionally no personality, allowing you to project yourself onto them. Utter bullshit.
A self-insert is a character who is written in a way that the audience can identify with him.
Hachiman is the perfect self-insert for the target audience. Why do you think derail threads about the show into blogfests? It's because so many people on /a/ identify with him. He's the perfect self-insert.
>>119388252 Yet his fanboys defend him to no end. All characters that don't suck his dick are hated by the rabid fanbase. Mari, Sayaka and Kanon have been called sluts and used goods simply because they aren't Tatsuya's haremettes and have other boyfriends.
I agree, Hachiman is a perfect Gary Stu for otaku and other social outcasts. He is basically how they want to be perceived by environment and the so called 'flaws' (their main defense) of his are there to allow those sad individuals to identify with him easier.
In real life otaku losers are much more similar to Shinji but notice that they are unable to identify with him, because he has flaws they are unable to accept as theirs.
This whole thing is obviously self-defense mechanism.
>>119388687 >I agree, Hachiman is a perfect Gary Stu for otaku and other social outcasts God, why do we have these kind of special retarded people here? Gary stu is someone perfect, charismatic, it has nothing to do to a character being relatable or sympathized with.
>>119388687 The only real issue with Hachiman is that he has 'just enough' "flaws" to be relatable to your average /a/ user who was a loser in highschool, but enough positive traits that he's distinctly different from the typical /a/non. It's that thin line that allows the people watching Yahari to insert into Hachiman when he starts getting a harem, when he saves the day numerous times, when the most beautiful girl in school falls for him, when people realize he's highly intelligent for his age, and think
>Yeah, I was exactly like that in highschool. I could've gotten a harem and the most beautiful school if I wanted to, but I didn't because normalfags amirite?
>>119388807 The retard here is you, anon. There are at least two definitions for Gary Stu, and neither requires him to be 'perfect'. In fact, most traditional mary sues do have flaws, it's just that those flaws are largely forgettable and have no bearing on the actual narrative or are somehow spun into positives.
>>119388713 It's even more self-insert worthy when you realize Tatsuya seduces all the bitches with his abilities and CAD engineering. Engineers are cool in this story. He's also just average looking with scars that are supposed to be a huge turn off but they really make Honoka and Erika wet anyway when they first see him at the beach.
>>119389069 >There are at least two definitions for Gary Stu Except there isn't, Mary sue is the same as Gary stu, there is one term only, you dipshit. >>119389095 Maybe the retard that makes these threads should be banned already.
>>119389126 >It is pathetic, but if you were here during airing, you'd know that the threads essentially became blogger central of people going I was, and I was when spyro was translating volume 6 too. I am aware, but it wasn't always, and it wasn't as exaggerated as you are making it. But yeah, I kind of agree. But not always, the LN only threads were great.
>>119389069 >it's just that those flaws are largely forgettable and have no bearing on the actual narrative or are somehow spun into positives. Except if you read the LNs, you'd realize his flaws does cause harm. Animeonly fags everyone.
Except that Hachiman is pretty much perfect, all his so-called flaws are superficial and don't really affect him in any negative way like they do e.g. Shinji or Hei (from Darker than Black). In fact they are not flaws at all for social outcasts.
>>119388547 Just like how Miyuki isn't a Mary Sue but she's still the best even better looking than an actress, can induce love at first sight, adored when she's rude to everyone, and a school idol despite being a dictator SC President.
>>119388806 >making the ridiculous claim that a protagonist whom the audience can identify with is somehow a bad thing. Of course not, faggot, i'm not that same idiot. I'm just saying Shinji is a self insert. I'm not saying anywhere that is a bad thing or that self insert is the same as Gary Stu
>>119388482 >So you're saying that any character that the audience can empathize with is a self-insert? No, a character who's deliberately designed with that in mind.
>Jesus Christ, this board is filled with teenagers. Fucking kill yourself. Sounds like you're the teenager here, getting all booty-bothered over someone pointing out that your favourite cartoon idol is a self-insert.
>>119388806 >making the ridiculous claim that a protagonist whom the audience can identify with is somehow a bad thing Please, tell me where I wrote that this is a bad thing. Or realise what a subhuman retard who are who can't even read.
>>119389226 >all his so-called flaws are superficial and don't really affect him in any negative way like they do Jesus christ, I hope the second season is adapted perfectly so you can eat your own words.
>>119389226 >Except that Hachiman is pretty much perfect, all his so-called flaws are superficial and don't really affect him in any negative way like they do e.g. Shinji or Hei (from Darker than Black) It's like you didn't read the LN or watched the anime at all, plain shitposting.
>>119389006 I don't think you realise that this is wish-fulfilment.
The show constructs a character who is just like the audience in every way possible and rewards him for it with feats that the audience didn't have. In real life, a character like Hikki would be an unpopular loner, just like the average /a/non. In anime, he's rewarded with girls to hang out with, girls who fall for him, exciting adventures, etc.
Instead of making Hikki man-up, grow out of his childish behaviour in order to get all that, he's handed it for free. Everyone /a/non wishes he had a high school life like Hikki.
>>119389419 >In real life, a character like Hikki would be an unpopular loner, just like the average /a/non. In anime, he's rewarded with girls to hang out with, girls who fall for him, exciting adventures, etc. He is an unpopular loner, he was forced to spend time with sluts, and said sluts were forced to spend time with him. >Instead of making Hikki man-up, grow out of his childish behaviour in order to get all that, he's handed it for free Nice bullshit.
>>119389312 To be fair, the anime is the reason why the gary stu accusation was even born. He's pretty much an outcast without any of the negatives associated with it.
Think back to your highschool life and remind yourself of that loser that had no friends. Did he befriend the most beautiful girl in the school? Did he befriend the most popular guy in school? Did he get by with no bullying at all? Did he manage to solve personal problems of some of the most notable people at school?
I highly doubt that.
LN Hachiman is not a gary stu, but S1 Hachiman is bordering on one.
>>119389268 >I'm using it as a disparaging buzzword, but now that I've been verbally smacked down and have no retort I'm going to pretend that it has no negative connotation What is the point of the term then? Why label a character if you actually believe there's nothing wrong with him being identifiable?
And even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend you're not backpedaling like a motherfucker, you have to realize that the way virtually everyone uses the term is to mock and ridicule.
>>119389439 It's on wikipedia and tvtropes if you really don't believe me, but you clearly have no idea about the subject and are just shitposting. Don't expect a further reply if you're just going to continue shitposting.
>>119389501 >He's pretty much an outcast without any of the negatives associated with it. He is never listened to, he is ignored and avoided most of the time, I think he has the negative of it, and befriending people you are obligated to spend time with isn't out of the spectre, I do agree though, that putting the "prettiest girl of the school" in that shitty club is cliche as shit though.
>>119389226 Hei is actually much more of a Gary Stu than Hachiman.
Hachiman is a self-insert, but he's not a Gary Stu, because he's flawed and the flaws are addressed. The show rewards him for being a loser. That's not Gary-Stuish at all, that's a wish-fulfilment pity party. A Gary Stu catches the hearts of everyone by being super special and being super awesome. Gary Stus are power fantasies for chuuni teenagers. The Hachiman type of self-insert is more aimed at ageing, disillusioned otaku who lack any ambition, don't want to change and would rather see someone who's as pathetic as they are handed stuff for free to use it as an escapist fantasy.
>>119389657 >He's listened to plenty of times. Only during request, which most of the time he is shot down and ignored over yukinoshita opinion. >Until he meets two girls who turn his life upside down! His opinion is still ignored apart from Yui. >Who cares if it's an obligation? He clearly wants it deep down inside and he got it. In the anime it's unknown if he wants it or not. >>119389702 The definition is arguably the same, only that in the "current" definition they add self insert as a requisite. Try a bit more.
>>119389698 Engineer here. There are definitely attractive engineers, but they're pretty rare and are the most alpha of the alphas more suited to being businessmen than engineers. But yeah, I can't wrap my head around anyone who claims Tats isn't a stu. There are people who defended him so much in the threads with garbage like >HES BEING USED HES A TOOL WHAT A TERRIBLE LIFE that I can't tell if it's trolling anymore.
>>119389301 >No, a character who's deliberately designed with that in mind. Do you seriously think characters aren't deliberately designed for the audience to empathize with them? That's kind of the whole fucking point. All characters that are meant to be empathized with are deliberately designed to be so. I can't believe I have to state something so self-evident. >Please, tell me where I wrote that this is a bad thing. >>119389301 >A self-insert is a character who is written in a way that the audience can identify with him. I pretty much quoted you word for word.
Next I'm guessing next you're going to pull the same stunt as the other retard and pretend you're not using self-insert with a negative connotation.
Litterally every character in every fiction or non fiction story can be self-insert. You just have to be the right person that can self inserted into that character. The real issue is whether 8man was intended by Wataru to be a self-insert or not? Also, he's not a Gary Stu all of you stupid fucks. If he was, why exactly did he need 2 volumes to fix his shit?
>>119389823 >Do you seriously think characters aren't deliberately designed for the audience to empathize with them? Yes, I do. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. And especially in shows like Oregairu, this is much more pronounced. Whether this is actually deliberate or coincidental due to the author adding autobiographical elements and having lived a similar life as other otaku is a different topic of course.
>you're not using self-insert with a negative connotation. But I don't. It's also funny that you're trying to make it sound like I did because you realised yourself that you were jumping to conclusions too quickly without having actually thought about what I wrote for a bit.
>>119389934 >Which is really the only time when he makes suggestions aside from two scenes in the anime I'm not talking about suggestions, I'm talking about opinions or topics in general, he is ignored in classroom and other activities or places apart from that specific club. >And it always goes back to his opinion/plan being the right one to save the day. He does it on his own, the others still reject is position. And his solution doesn't solve anything either. >No, it really isn't. Unless you're talking about meaningless drivel like being forced to go shopping. It is until volume 6 and 7. >We'll see, but if S2 follows the LN at all, it's obvious. Well, I'm talking about anime only, I read the LN, but this thread is about the anime.
>>119389490 >and said sluts were forced to spend time with him. and ended up liking him >>119389555 >Wahhh, it's your fault i have shitty reading comprehension >Why label a character if you actually believe there's nothing wrong with him being identifiable? Are you saying that only bad things are worthy of labelling? Hell you're an idiot. My first post in the thread was >>119388215 and i only made it to give a counter example to the wrong definition of self insert >>119388047 provided
>>119389943 >Such as? You said it yourself. The original mary sue is an idealization. The modern one needs to be a self-insert, but doesn't necessarily needs to be 'perfect' at everything (although it usually is anyways, leading to the negative connotation).
Regardless, it's recognized that the term has changed over the years, lending to my statement that there are two versions. Deal with it.
>>119389934 You do realize his plans typically just put problems on the backburner? Remember what happened with Rumi in volume 9? Also, Hachiman would've burned down to the ground had he not received Yukino and Yui's help.
>>119390050 >You said it yourself. Then why did you answer me as if I was wrong when I specificied the only and retarded difference? It's still the same shit. Just in case you are unaware of english language, "wish fullfillment" is a character who is 'perfect'. Nice try, retard.
>>119390023 >he is ignored in classroom and other activities or places apart from that specific club. Really? I'm thinking back to stuff like the cultural festival club and the camping trip, where his opinion was actually noted (begrudgingly) by others. You should name some specific instances that are actually serious.
>He does it on his own, the others still reject is position. Who? They all concede that he's right at the end of the day, even if they hate his methods. Look at the camping trip: Hayama disagreed with Hachiman's opinion on loners, but at the end of the day it was Hachiman's extreme actions that saved the girl.
>>119390121 >Then why did you answer me as if I was wrong Because even now you're still trying to deny that there are two definitions like here: >It's still the same shit
Is your reading comprehension failing you? You dismissed TVTropes are an invalid source (despite it being very useful for this topic) and when presented with Wikipedia's take on it, you dismiss it as not being significant enough despite the article clearly stating there is a difference to distinguish the term in modern and classic senses.
God, you are the most autistic idiot I've talked to today. You just can't accept being wrong, can you? No one will even remember you after this 404s.
Plenty of self-inserts (including Hachiman) are aimed a pathetic audience who want to see their own flaws represented on the screen. They don't watch these shows as a power fantasy but more for the healing-type of experience. Hachiman is a loser but he's still cherished, even loved, despite of his flaws. In that regard the audience is given the impression that they're okay the way they are.
This is very different from your typical Gary Stu protagonist, who dresses in some Final Fantasy style beltan zipper school, who is a teenager who acts mopy all the time but who is also a seasoned combat veteran with super special combat abilities. Have you watched Black Bullet? That protagonist is a typical Gary Stu. These sorts of shows provide a completely different experience, they're more of a power fantasy than the healing type of experience that shows like Oregairu, or many other harem series for that matter, provide.
>>119389649 >Hei is actually much more of a Gary Stu than Hachiman. >A Gary Stu catches the hearts of everyone by being super special and being super awesome.
Depends what you think of as special or awesome. Hei is a good operative but is also fucked in the head, depressed and in the last season transforms into a bitter alcoholic and a bum (I still remember all those tasty fangirls tears, was so goood.). Not to mention he loses all his powers if i remember correctly? Which weren't that great to begin with.
He wasn't idealized, nor was he someone a viewer would like to be. I don't think he is a Gary Stu at all, taking last season into consideration.
>>119390004 >Yes, I do. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Some characters aren't written with the intent to be empathized with. Some people may empathize with such characters regardless. That's not really relevant. >But I don't. Yeah, sure. >Sounds like you're the teenager here, getting all booty-bothered over someone pointing out that your favourite cartoon idol is a self-insert. You're definitely not using the term in a disparaging manner.
But if you're insistent on backpedaling, I invite you to answer the same question I asked the other idiot: >>119389555
>>119390209 No matter what happens there, the fact that he got to hang out with cute girls, that cute girls started to fall for him, that he was handed adventure and excitement despite he himself making no effort to actively seek it is already proves my point.
>>119390229 >) and when presented with Wikipedia's take on it, you dismiss it as not being significant enough despite the article clearly stating there is a difference to distinguish the term in modern and classic senses. The difference is insignificant to your argument, because you still fail at grasping the meaning of "will fullfillment". You twist the definition to justify your ignorant argument. >God, you are the most autistic idiot I've talked to today I'm not the guy making these threads to shitpost, nor I'm the guy with lack of reading comprehension either. Whether 8man is or isn't a self insert character, he doesn't has the wish fullfillment characteristic, it doesn't matter how much bullshit you pull out of your ass.
>>119390270 >This is very different from your typical Gary Stu protagonist, who dresses in some Final Fantasy style beltan zipper school, who is a teenager who acts mopy all the time but who is also a seasoned combat veteran with super special combat abilities. Being edgy and overpowered doesn't make someone a gary stu, although I do agree that Hachiman isn't one. He's just a blatant wish-fulfillment fantasy.
>>119390176 >Who? They all concede that he's right at the end of the day, even if they hate his methods. Look at the camping trip: Hayama disagreed with Hachiman's opinion on loners, but at the end of the day it was Hachiman's extreme actions that saved the girl. You can see in volume 9 that Rumi is still alone. Also in vol6 in the culture festival commite he didn't solve the problem at all, he just directed all the hate towards him to solve the drama bullshit the short haired girl was pulling.
>>119390104 I don't see why I should take your stance seriously then. The story isn't even over and the purpose of the first six volumes are (season 1) is to build up towards what follows in volumes 7 and beyond (season 2).
It doesn't make sense to start categorizing a character into a certain stereotype with your limited understanding of the character based on a story that hasn't ended yet.
>He's a Gary Stu in the first 13 episodes, but not anymore after! How does that even work?
>>119389797 8man is the narrator. It makes sense that his surrounding is potrayed to be dumber than him. >dumbed down female Dem fightin word m8 What kind of pussy did he earn actually? >Yukino 10 volumes of development etc >Yui Into the hospital you go >Saki Well, I agree with this at least. >Iroha Unconfirmed feeling. >Rumi ;_; First crush in life. Fucking guy help you twice, he's smart and kinda like me.
>>119390311 >you need to actively flirt a girl in order to make she falls for you, else it's bullshit And being give adventure and excitement is a given for most fiction, this is not a story about a boring person live a boring life and his boring struggle.
>>119390349 >The difference is insignificant to your argument My argument, from my very first post, is that there are two definitions. Nothing more and nothing less. It is not my fault if you either misread or think that I'm someone else.
Admit that you're wrong and that there are two definitions, or refuse to concede and continue to plug your ears; it makes no difference to me.
>'m not the guy making these threads to shitpost You are the guy defending 8man in a blatant troll thread at 1AM at night. That's pretty autistic.
>>119390304 >You're definitely not using the term in a disparaging manner. I'm using the term in a neutral manner. It's you who attributes negativity to it - and gets all butthurt.
The point is: it's not particularly great writing, if you're looking at it from a sort of arty perspective, but it still provides good entertainment - and that's what we're looking for.
>What is the point of the term then? Why label a character if you actually believe there's nothing wrong with him being identifiable? Are you that retarded that you're unable to understand the purpose of classification?
>virtually everyone uses the term is to mock and ridicule. Wannabe normalfag retards do who wish for their Chinese cartoons to be serious art so their parents and normalfag friends don't give them silly looks any more when they tell them that they're wasting their time watching them. A character being a self-insert is not a bad thing. A show having no higher ambitions but to entertain is not a bad thing.
>>119390350 >Being edgy and overpowered doesn't make someone a gary stu, although I do agree that Hachiman isn't one. He's just a blatant wish-fulfillment fantasy.
I completely disagree. Being edgy and overpowered is actually a pretty good indicator of a Gary Stu.
Calling Hachiman a "blatant" wish-fulfilment fantasy takes it a bit far though, because the show is actually pretty well written for its kind, and occasionally pretty insightful. It's by no means as flat as some critics claim it was.
>>119390358 I've said that I'm talking anime-only. You even said yourself you were talking anime-only.
>>119390363 >I don't see why I should take your stance seriously then. Then you don't have to. Those are my impressions of the character after a season. They might change, but until S2 comes out we don't know for sure yet.
>How does that even work? Because if the 13 episodes are conclusive (ie. no S2), then we get someone whose flaws make no difference to the story and he gets handed a harem and exciting school life for free with no change in character.
>>119390563 >It's one definition that changed through time, As someone who knows a Trekkie, clearly not. Please don't talk shit about topics you know nothing about.
>>119390587 >Being edgy and overpowered is actually a pretty good indicator of a Gary Stu. But it's not the only indicator. If you were to use those two as criteria for a Stu, the term would literally lose all meaning since nearly every piece of young-adult fiction would have one.
>>119390428 He's a teenager, yet a seasoned combat veteran. He was educated by some super important government guy in some super special martial arts which requires him to yell attack names all the time. He acts mopy and immature as fuck, often yelling at people, yet the show makes it look like he's the reasonable guy who's right all the time. Despite his martial arts powers he's also a cyborg created in some super secret government program which gives him super strength, super vision, etc. All the girls fall for him. All the lolis love him.
Nigger please. Success or failure at the end doesn't necessarily matter. The way he's designed is chuuni as fuck. And he's definitely quite Gary Stuish.
>>119390587 How do you write a story that revolves around character development that isn't wish-fulfillment? >>119390618 >Because if the 13 episodes are conclusive Well, there you go. The story isn't conclusive, so stop trying to push Hachiman as a Gary Stu until season 2 comes out, not that you'd be able to once it is out.
>>119390507 >it's not particularly great writing >I'm using the term in a neutral manner
Jesus fucking Christ. But please, explain to me why a protagonist eliciting empathy from the audience is "not particularly great writing". >Are you that retarded that you're unable to understand the purpose of classification? The purpose of classification is rarely redundancy. Your variation of self-insert serves zero purpose. >Wannabe normalfag retards do More like everyone does, except for you, who change the definition to avoid looking like total dunces.
>>119390483 Again: he's presented as a loner who got made fun of for all his life. People give him strange looks all the time. He's mopy, distant, etc.
Now due to plot magic he's put in a place where he gets to socialise with cute girls, who all magically fall for him.
A character like Hachiman would in real life probably end up being a virgin loser posting on /a/ right now. Yet in his own universe he's put in a position where he experiences romance and excitement. If that isn't wish-fulfilment, then you're the biggest idiot on /a/.
Keep in mind though: I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. And despite being wish-fulfilment, the show is actually occasionally quite insightful. Still wish-fulfilment though - no reason to deny that.
>>119390704 >Success or failure at the end doesn't necessarily matter.
According to >>119390121, to be a Sue you have to be idealized. An idealization, a perfect representation of a concept, cannot fail or it would defeat the purpose of the character.
>>119390716 >Well, there you go. Are you actually retarded? I'm saying that in S1, before we knew of S2, he's a Stu because the anime is terrible. I never once argued that he would be a Stu into S2 or in the LNs.
>>119390483 >you need to actively flirt a girl in order to make she falls for you, else it's bullshit If you aren't at least a 7/10, this is true. Hachiman isn't ugly, but he's average at best >>119390505 Except i already answered you in my former post, you fucking asshole. I did it to correct the guy who was giving a wrong definition of self insert. I don't give a fuck if you or other people give a bad interpretation because the term has become a buzzword.
>>119390852 >Pretty much. If you think that, then you know nothing of young adult fiction and think Twilight is the pinnacle of the genre. As my social sciences professor used to say >Educate yourfuckingself
>>119390853 >According to >>119390121, to be a Sue you have to be idealized. An idealization, a perfect representation of a concept, cannot fail or it would defeat the purpose of the character. He's wrong then. A Gary Stu doesn't need to be "perfect". By making such strict definitions (in regards to Kant we could speak of "rigorisms"), you're essentially making the definition too tight to be applied to real life. In real life, even in fiction, hardly anything will ever fit a too strict definition.
No, a Gary Stu doesn't need to be always successful and always perfect. Being close to being perfect, often at the cost of believability, e.g. a teenager as a seasoned combat veteran who acts all immature yet is still taken seriously, etc. - that are the characteristics of a Gary Stu.
>>119390716 >How do you write a story that revolves around character development that isn't wish-fulfillment? By having realistic consequences (or even just logical ones) derived from actions? None of this
>I'm a loner freak but my guidance counselor forced me to join a club which just happens to have the most beautiful girl in school who is also a complete loner like me allowing me to meet a popular girl in school who is in love with me because I saved her dog and now both of them want my dick because I solve everyone's problems through self-sacrificial means eliciting sympathy from those close to me
>Still wish-fulfilment though - no reason to deny that. I'm not denying it isn't wish-fulfillment, it's not like there's much thing wrong about wish-fulfillment in the first place. A lot of great literature works (or being considered great) are wish-fulfillment My point when I'm addressed you is that he's not just getting everything easily with no effort at all. Of course it's plot magic that put him into a position where there can be struggle and development, but all the latter is done by the person himself. He's the wish-fulfillment type of character, but in reality, it's way harder than it looks.
>>119391105 In reality, everything is harder than it looks. It doesn't change the fact that 8man was handed an exciting school life and a harem with little to no effort. I realize that it is fiction and you have to come up with a scenario to make it interesting if you're basing it on real life, but that's where the wish-fullfillment comes into play.
>>119390794 >explain to me why a protagonist eliciting empathy from the audience is "not particularly great writing". It's not particularly great if it requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. What do you think do normalfags and landwhales complain about when watching harem anime? They complain that the girls fall for someone who wouldn't be popular with girls in real life. To them it seems ridiculous. The show fails to motivate that in a believable fashion.
That in itself doesn't make the show bad. A show can be good despite a weak premise, but it's something that still needs to be realised.
>The purpose of classification is rarely redundancy. Your variation of self-insert serves zero purpose. It does. If you know that a character is designed as an otaku self-insert you know what to expect. If someone tells me that a show has a shounen lead type protagonist I already know what I'm getting into. If someone tells me that a show is shoujo shit, I already know what to expect.
Classification is good. Connotations vary from person to person. Self-insert might have a negative connotation to you, but it does not have one for me.
>More like everyone does, except for you, who change the definition to avoid looking like total dunces. Unless you spend all your time on ANN, reddit and other shitholes, I don't think so.
People on /a/ revel in being reviled. If a show does not appeal to normalfags that's a good thing.
>>119390853 The problem is you sound like you're an expert on Hachiman when all you know about him is his butchered characterization in the anime. Another problem is this series is based on a light novel, so if you're expecting to analyze a character at all, then you'd better be doing it from the source or you'll get a lot of shit.
If this series was anime original, I don't think people would give you so much shit. I know I wouldn't, but now that I'm exposed to the light novels, it's hard to keep my mouth shut when a character I like gets generalized just because he exhibits x and y traits.
Self-inserting and wish-fulfillment isn't a big deal as long the characters actually grow along with the story. Questioning how the story gets rolling makes no sense to me either since we wouldn't have a story in the first place if we didn't have plot magic to get things going.
Whatever, I'll stop being an autistic faggot and stop here. Hopefully the season 2 threads don't turn into shit like this thread.
I'm an aspiring LN writer and I want to write a story centering around the adventures of my teenage boy MC as he finds himself surrounded by cute girls of various archetypes. Trouble is I don't want my readers to get triggered when people online don't like the self ins- err protagonist. What sort of flaws should I add? Some that pop to my head is >bullied a lot or misunderstood >he doesn't actually want the harem because etc. >he gets hurt a lot Thanks in advance!
>>119390927 >If you think that, then you know nothing of young adult fiction I wasn't the one who brought it up.
You were the one who said that if going by my definitions young adult fiction would be filled with Gary Stus.
You fail to realise though that this doesn't discredit anything I've written: it's well possible that young adult fiction is filled with Gary Stus, in fact it's well likely, since the young adult audience likes chuuni shit.
Now you say that I supposedly don't know anything about young adult fiction, yet I wasn't the one who brought it up. You brought it up because you thought the criteria realised in young adult fiction. What is it now? Is young adult fiction filled with Gary Stus by my definition or is it not? It's your argument, not mine - I need not know about it because it's independent from my postulations.
Perhaps you should spend less time in social sciences lectures.
>>119391055 >>119391258 I'm the guy you were arguing with. Btw >>119391102 it's not me. I'm aware that things can be vaguely defined, but then in that case giving a definition that is too exclusive is wrong, like >>119388047 did. By his definition only VN MC's can be self inserts.
>>119391218 >It's not particularly great if its not done well Yeah, no shit. You're claiming that the fundamental idea of the audience relating to the character is "not particularly great writing". >It does. No it doesn't. Your definition says nothing that "identifiable" does not. >If you know that a character is designed as an otaku self-insert You're not even using your own definition here, you're using the buzzword. >People on /a/ revel in being reviled. People on /a/ revel in taking shits on each other's tastes.
>>119391319 Maybe make the MC broken or insane in some way. Messiah complex etc. makes the MC more special and you can also use it as a flaw. Besides, "broken" is a cool word. The readers would dig it.
>>119391230 He's not actively approaching the girls though, he's usually reacting to things happening around him, being dragged around by the girls (again wish-fulfilment). Also, the idea that helping girls, solving their problems, and so on made them fall for you is already a nerdy wish fulfilment fantasy. Being friends to a girl, helping her gives you friendship - not love. You're falling in that friendzone trap, thinking love was just friendship taken a step further - but that's not the case. Listening to a girls problems, fixing her computer, carrying her stuff, all that shit doesn't get you any closer to her falling for you if the chemistry simply isn't there.
>>119391584 If you really think so, you're an idiot. There are a lot of characters written on purporse by the author for the reader/viewer to self insert precisely by giving that character the personality of the target audience. That's the point.
>>119391740 For the umpteenth time, making a character for the audience to relate to and empathize with is not the same as self-inserting.
Self-inserting is something that your autistic ass does, and just because you self-insert with every character you form a connection with doesn't mean that its the norm to do so or the same thing as identifying/empathizing with a character.
>>119391510 >Yeah, no shit. You're claiming that the fundamental idea of the audience relating to the character is "not particularly great writing". No, you've clearly failed to understand what I wrote. Read it again.
>Your definition says nothing that "identifiable" does not. "identifiable" is a meaningless quality. "self-insert" is an established term where everyone knows what to expect. Obviously there are different degrees of self-insert. Araragi for example has self-insert qualities. So does Hachiman from Oregairu and so does your average bland harem protagonist whose name you've forgotten because he simply wasn't that important. Dismissing "self-insert" as an insult is something normalfags do.
>People on /a/ revel in taking shits on each other's tastes. If you think that then you probably need to get the fuck out. But we might as well go further and test your character: do you think /a/ is the best place to discuss anime on the internet?
>>119391720 Yukino's the only one who I feel doesn't hit any of your points as far as falling in love because she was helped since that hasn't really happened yet. Well, except the cliche beautiful girl meeting, etc, but whatever, that's insignificant given their progress.
The other girls were helped, so I guess what you're saying applies to them.
>>119391895 Do you realize now you're the one arbitrarily forcing your definition against your own post? >>119391055 >There is no correct definition, you fucking dumbass, because it's always been a meaningless buzzword.
>>119391898 >No, you've clearly failed to understand what I wrote. Read it again. Again, I'm pretty much quoting you verbatim. >>119390507 >The point is: it's not particularly great writing, if you're looking at it from a sort of arty perspective That's exactly what you wrote. What am I misinterpreting? If that's not what you meant, it's your fault for not clearly articulating yourself. >"identifiable" is a meaningless quality. "self-insert" is an established term where everyone knows what to expect. >a real word that would get used in actual critique/criticism is a "meaningless quality" >a shitty buzzword with no actual definition is an "established term where everyone knows what to expect" Alright, I'm done. This kind of idiocy is too much for me. You only seem intent on dragging me into some kind of stupid No True Scotsman/ad hominem trap at this point anyway.
>>119392154 Are you seriously telling me you're unable to understand what I've written here:
>It's not particularly great if it requires a lot of suspension of disbelief. What do you think do normalfags and landwhales complain about when watching harem anime? They complain that the girls fall for someone who wouldn't be popular with girls in real life. To them it seems ridiculous. The show fails to motivate that in a believable fashion.
>>119392220 It has a meaning inside the thread, which people have been using. Sorry if you're not okay with the existence of the word "self-insert" as a noun, but is actually useful within the context of what we're discussing.
>>119392514 >It has a meaning inside the thread Are we reading the same thread?
There's very clearly more than one meaning, and it seems to me that everyone is just making up their own and changing it when it suits them. >is actually useful within the context of what we're discussing Yeah, I imagine that a word that can mean whatever you want it to is very useful within the context of jerking off your ego and feigning superiority on a Cantonese pictogram image board.
>>119392650 most people have been using the term self-insert as a noun by the same simple logic you interpret it as a verb: "a character that was designed on purporse for the reader/viewer to insert as". It's the meaning used into the main context on this discussion, and then the first guy i quoted said that can only apply to characters with no personality which is not appropiate for the context we're discussing outside VN's. Man it's not that complicated.
>>119392943 >"a character that was designed on purporse for the reader/viewer to insert as" You're forgetting the part where you and the other retard made the outrageous claim that this is the same thing as a character being designed for the reader/viewer to relate to/empathize with.
>>119392474 You must be the most retarded faggot on /a/ right now. I've told you exactly under which circumstances it's not done well. If you're too retarded to understand simple, written English, then I can't help you.
>>119393198 You're so fucking stupid you don't even see what you're doing.
You are seriously autistic. Not meme autistic, I mean you legitimately have a problem with communicating with people and expect people to just magically comprehend your thought process.
Let me try to explain our exchange to you.
You claimed that a "self-insert", which, in your own words, is any character that the audience identifies with, is "not particularly great writing".
I asked you to explain your reasoning as to why a character being identifiable is "not particularly great writing".
You responded with "It's not particularly great if it requires a lot of suspension of disbelief."
Do you not understand the problem with explaining an absolute statement with a conditional? You went from saying "this particular element is not particularly great, period" and then explained that by saying "well, it's not particularly great if it's not done well". No shit?
I'm guessing you never meant to make an absolute statement in the first place. You don't think a character being identifiable to the audience is inherently bad, but that sometimes it's taken too far to the point of pandering, which is not particularly great writing but sometimes, in your opinion, entertaining. But your dumb ass, unable to properly articulate itself, made that absolute statement anyway, "explained" it with the stupid conditional, and proceeded to be utterly baffled that I didn't automatically follow your autistic thought process and know your predisposition.
I hope that helped, and I hope you'll reflect on how you communicate with people in the future. Remember that any person you're communicating with isn't privy to whatever is going on inside your head.
>>119393678 >Do you not understand the problem with explaining an absolute statement with a conditional? Are you the one who just called me autistic? I think you're the one who's autistic because I've given you the circumstances under which a self-insert can be considered bad writing and which is why many consider "self-inserts" in general bad writing. The idea that something in order for a general statement to be made needs to apply to everything is something an autistic would make, since reality is rarely absolute - only maths is.
You're a subhuman who got told and is now debating semantics because of it; discussing whether I was debating absolutes or particular cases rather than the matter at hand.
>>119394362 I'm going to baby this for you and dumb it down as much as possible: >"Apples are disgusting." >"Why is that?" >"Rotten apples are disgusting." That was our exchange, simplified. If you can't see where you messed up here, then you're hopeless.
The only thing I got "told" is that I should never bother arguing with idiots.
>>119394574 Your example doesn't apply because there aren't way more rotten apples than non-rotten apples. In general, the majority is taken as representative for the whole. Again, you're not dealing with mathematical sets here but with real life.
The reason why self-inserts have a bad reputation is because of what I've told you. In many, if not the vast majority, of them, people perceive certain things as flaws.
>>119378171 That guy was such a Gary Stu. He's supposed to be an awkward loner. But he's smart, witty, always has an intelligent reply to everyone, doesn't give a fuck, confident, can talk to hot girls without it being awkward.
Of course, he doesn't have amazing reality bending powers, but this isn't a shonen. He is overpowered for what he is, a loner high school student.
>>119382453 8man is a undoubtedly a self insert for antisocial cynical teenagers, hiki, who are a LARGE portion of /a/ BUT he is not your typical Gary sue. As told in this thread he has a lot of flaws and overall quite pathetic. If /a/nons whant to be like 8man then i dont even know how pathetic they are now. Maybe they just whant to go back to school years and imagine themselfs as someone a bit more confidend in themselfs like 8man.
>>119396063 >The whole "blank dont lose" Exactly, as part of a team, of which her sister usually does the greater part. The ability to outsmart everyone is basically his only ability since Shiro is better at memorizing, rationalizing, calculating, i.e. everything that's not bluffing.
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from them. If you need IP information for a Poster - you need to contact them. This website shows only archived content.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content you can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org with that post and thread number and it will be removed as soon as possible.