>>120083270 Is G/O a Fuyuki-style war? It looks like its way more than just a 7-Servant battle-royale. I'd still want Tamamo to be included though. >>120083334 Isn't Tamamo the Servant the 9-tails (nerfed down to one b/c Moon Cell) and the other 8 foxes just parts of her, rather than parts of Amaterasu? >Her wish is simply to be summoned and help others. Isn't her wish to devote herself to someone else completely as their wife?
>>120083863 >Isn't Tamamo the Servant the 9-tails (nerfed down to one b/c Moon Cell) and the other 8 foxes just parts of her, rather than parts of Amaterasu?
Think of it like this; Tamamo is Arcuied, Nine-Tails is 100% Arcuied, and Ameratsu is Archetype Earth.
Tamamo is just a fraction, 9% of the real thing. You got one of the weakest incarnations, but she's also one of the least malevolent.
They are all 9% of the Nine tails, each represent a single tail. If they all come together they'll become something as strong as a hundred servants together. However Nine-Tails is still just an incarnation or envoy of the real big dog, Ammy.
An incarnation of an incarnation of a sort. Or a fraction of an incarnation in her current form.
Tamamo isn't entirely part of Ammy in the sense that if all of her comes together she'll become Ammy, that's not how it works. Ammy is still alive and in the world, since divine spirits of that level are outside of time itself. Tamamo is still something of an incarnation or envoy of her, despite her still being alive. If all the tails came together they'd become nine-tails, but Ammy is something even more so.
Shit that Nasu directly wrote, he wrote an entire data-book and extra materials on every part of it and why it was just a different world-line and was entirely canon as every piece fits into place, and he wrote it as important to Fate as a franchise as a whole.
> Nasu: At first I'd aimed for CCC to be something that can be enjoyed on its own, even more so with Extra. And that Extra can be enjoyed even more with CCC, like Fate/hollow ataraxia to Fate/stay night. >But as I wrote the scenario, I became aware of a desire to state the "answer" of the Fate series, which has been continuing for almost ten years now. >After ten years, I finally realized that "this is what I wanted to say with the Fate series." If I'm able to complete this, then there'll no longer be anything left for me to say.
It is unquestionable canon, but it's not necessarily the same world-line as the fifth war. Why does everyone flip their shit like this is such a hard concept to take? The fact that Fate/Stay Night exists doesn't mean Apocrypha also does not exist, that's not how the system works at all. Shit isn't even hard to grasp unless you're just bitching for the sake of it.
>>120086147 >Things that happened in different world-lines aren't canon
I guess Fate route is the only canon story, and HF and UBW are non-canon shit.
>>120086349 Yes, because Shirou is nationally stronger than Kotomine, Bazett, and Ciel. And that totally makes sense despite the fact that he is around Kiritsugu level at his absolute max and would get shit on by both Bazett and Shiki at said max.
>>120087028 Archer isn't even that bad as a Servant, stat-wise.
Ciel is stated to be only capable of fighting your average servant defensively.
Ciel's magic potential is 100 all around. Shirou's is at best 70 in an extremely specific category.
Mind explaining to us how a monster with huge parameters in every category could only fight defensively against the future self of a person whose max potential is explicitly 7/10th of her's in a single category an nearly 0 in everything else?
>>120086959 >>120086730 Ilya was happy for Sakura in HF since they get along partially due to how their histories line up.
Ilya has her own route, Heaven's Feel was never so much that route since Sakura always had a route as well, and this was her route.
What would Ilya's currently non-existant route entail? Hard to say because Nasu didn't feel like putting in half a year more of work.
>She became a key character in all routes, but her true identity and nature were only revealed in the final route. >Ilya got along well with Shirou and had trouble deciding whether or not to kill him. >She had a personal route during development. However, if that were made, then the release date of Fate/Stay Night would be delayed by another half a year. Thank God.
Couple routes ended up dropped for some reason, in this case though it was mainly just laziness.
>>120087194 >fight defensively against the future self of a person whose max potential is explicitly 7/10th of her's in a single category an nearly 0 in everything else? Hmm, I can't explain this because this scenario was never brought up. What was brought up was a a servant of unknown stats and unknown NP.
>>120087257 That was just a sex scene with a creampie. Internal ejaculation only leads to impregnation on very, very rare occasions. Furthermore no indication was ever given that it lead to impregnation and Future! Rin was never said to have children.
>>120087228 You're trying to say Fate route is a happier ending for her? It really wasn't though, as a character HF was by far more complete for her and poetic.
She dies a year after the story no matter what anyway including fate route, but with this ending she reconnected with the small bit of family she had left rather than never addressing anything with him in Fate route out of fear since she doesn't want him treating her differently, coming to terms with her father, deciding her fate as a human, and resolving herself on everything.
It's the difference between getting an ice cream cone, and finding enlightenment in life.
The difference between finally becoming a family for real and addressing the cloud over their head that we know was still there half a year later in another route, or just doing shit until she dies in another few months while they never took a step forward together.
>>120087316 The point is that she can fight, at absolute best, defensively against Servants, and she is an absolute beast an order of magnitude above Kotomine who is above Bazett who is above Shirou. Shirou does not display any potential to rise to Servant level on his own, is said to be 40 under the very specific condition of killing magi compared to Ciel's 100, and loses like a bitch to Bazett at his max trained level. There is no rational way to say he gets to Servant tier without being boosted by his contract or through the actual act of becoming a Heroic Spirit.
>gil's GoB is strong enough to singlehandedly beat almost every servant with bare minimum effort >archer's UBW is a weaker but spammier version >apparently it sucks against everyone yet counters GoB perfectly
>Archer kills berserker in 6 different instances before getting killed, despite the insane gap in stats (DCC vs A+AA) >nevermind archer having no A rank ability outside of using a foreign weapon
>True assassin has BCA stats yet loses badly against sabers BCC and archers DCC
>archer had a billion chances to kill shirou but waits until he's weak as shit and dying from lack of mana
>caladbolg II's explosion can severely hurt saber, but doesn't even scratch berserker
>archer doesn't just spam caladbolg IIs against every other master
>sakura's shadow becomes active in heaven's feel, yet there was nothing different at all early on that could have triggered it
>someone or something ordered the shadow and saber alter to capture berserker, even though sakura had no knowledge of it or intentions or anything "z-zouken s-somehow m-manipulated both!"
>archer was supposed to die from mana loss, yet despite being skewered all over and disappearing he still manages to come back the next day in battle
>rider dies in her first fight against saber, but somehow respawns again anyway
>sakuras muscles were completely torn from the gilgamesh attack yet she managed to take a walk outside before fainting
there must be a million more of this shit copy pastass
>>120087456 >There is no rational way to say he gets to Servant tier without being boosted by his contract or through the actual act of becoming a Heroic Spirit. There is. It's called Nasu making shit up on the spot.
>>120087643 >Servants are on average weaker than they were in life On average, certainly, because most of them are crazy bullshit demigod-tier heroes, and often literal demigods. That shouldn't apply to nobodies like Kojiro and Shirou, though. There is no hard-and-fast rule that Servant HAVE to be weaker than they were in life.
>>120087644 >Oh-no, Nasu doesn't give me the answers I want, so I'm going to bitch about them! No you fucking retard, he keeps contradicting himself in them. Having a discussion over the same quotes a second after we had one is fucking retarded.
>>120087933 Bazett's NP has nothing to do with her beating Shirou. It's all about the stats and experience. And that's not even max potential Bazett who is actually equal to Ciel. Ciel would shit on Shirou as well.
>>120087874 You just used the Bazett beats Shirou card which comes from a Nasu powerlevel quote, and Ciel being able to only fight defensively against a unknown servant which is another of his power level quotes. Nasu's powerlevel quotes have been proven to be shit.
>>120088083 Fact: Ciel is stronger than Bazett. Bazett at her max level would equal Ciel. Fact: Ciel cannot beat Servants. Fact: Bazett cannot beat Servants without the usage of Frag. If a Servant like Lancer knows about it, there is literally nothing she can do. Fact: Bazett can beat max Shirou, and not once is it said that she needs Frag to do it. Fact: Max Shirou cannot ever be Servant level.
>>120087502 >>True assassin has BCA stats yet loses badly against sabers BCC and archers DCC Assassins aren't supposed to be fighters. Those are two entirely different skill-sets. Someone who only excels in being a coward and taking advantage of someone in a weak position, of course he can't fight a warrior. Stats don't mean anything with him, he's nothing but a coward or vulture. >>caladbolg II's explosion can severely hurt saber, but doesn't even scratch berserker It took away a life in the VN >>archer doesn't just spam caladbolg IIs against every other master Charge time, mana, and the other servant would of course not let him. >>sakura's shadow becomes active in heaven's feel, yet there was nothing different at all early on that could have triggered it Fear, desire, and hope. The one she loved payed attention to her, he was in danger, she felt she had a chance for the first time, and that created something that was lost ten years ago anew. Hope. This hope/desire was hijacked by Angya who was connected to her. For ten years she was living as though she was dead, but finally an emotion was created within her that it could use. >>archer was supposed to die from mana loss, yet despite being skewered all over and disappearing he still manages to come back the next day in battle Spiritual core wasn't broken, although it was cracked. Independent Action skill allowed him to survive just barely. He never died, he retreated into spirit form. >>rider dies in her first fight against saber, but somehow respawns again anyway It's directly noted she hadn't died yet, as Zouken burned the book before she did. She didn't poof away, and this is the entire reason she has Independent Action as an extra skill. She had to retreat into spirit form once her contract with Shinji was broken. >>sakuras muscles were completely torn from the gilgamesh attack yet she managed to take a walk outside before fainting Her power is binding, she was able to temporarily stitch some things together.
>>120088492 If Shirou at his max can be beaten by hollow Bazett who cannot be Servants without her NP without specifically needing her NP, he cannot be Servant level. Unless you think Bazett can beat Archer just as easily.
>>120087502 >apparently it sucks against everyone yet counters GoB perfectly UBW isn't just "GoB, but less so", it has a clearly defined advantage when the reality marble has been manifested.
>Archer kills berserker in 6 different instances before getting killed, despite the insane gap in stats (DCC vs A+AA) Stats don't mean shit. >nevermind archer having no A rank ability outside of using a foreign weapon Broken Phantasms.
>True assassin has BCA stats yet loses badly against sabers BCC and archers DCC Stats don't mean shit.
>archer had a billion chances to kill shirou but waits until he's weak as shit and dying from lack of mana He doesn't just want to kill Shirou any time, he would prefer to make Shirou give up on his ideals. His murderous impulses generally come when Shirou is being particularly bone-headed and self-destructive.
>caladbolg II's explosion can severely hurt saber, but doesn't even scratch berserker Do you know nothing about Berserker whatsoever?
>archer doesn't just spam caladbolg IIs against every other master There aren't really many chances to do that, and Servants are good at blocking shots aimed at their masters.
>sakura's shadow becomes active in heaven's feel, yet there was nothing different at all early on that could have triggered it You're a dumbass, Zouken's actions were different because he noticed the effect Shirou has on Sakura.
>someone or something ordered the shadow and saber alter to capture berserker, even though sakura had no knowledge of it or intentions or anything "z-zouken s-somehow m-manipulated both!" No idea what you're talking about here.
>archer was supposed to die from mana loss, yet despite being skewered all over and disappearing he still manages to come back the next day in battle Independent Action, it was just a flesh wound.
>rider dies in her first fight against saber, but somehow respawns again anyway She doesn't die, she just goes into spirit form.
>>120088678 It talks about how she manhandles him, saying even BPing her wouldn't work. If he was Servant level in that state, it would say that she cannot beat him without Frag. She cannot beat a Servant without using it, so he is not Servant level. Not that hard of a thought process.
>>120088804 Kouma who was doing nothing but being a retard. He specifically didn't even have a sense of self until the end of the fight, nor did he use his crimson whatever abilities. And that is a case of type advantage.
>>120088817 Why do people talk highly about Broken Phantasms? It requires a chant to even use the thing. And Saber easily avoided it when she directly faced it while protecting another person and she doesn't even have Protection from Arrows.
>>120088943 It mentions that she is superior in all ways, and that not even BP would change the flow of battle. Even if that means Frag, which it doesn't even seem to imply, she is still above him completely.
>>120089020 When you talk about Servants, you don't include Avenger, Hans, or Dumas. Weak-shit is weak-shit and doesn't apply to the average or even below average thing. Real Avenger was even weaker than hollow Avenger.
>>120088906 >you're saying Bazett could beat Bazett has proven that she can defeat Servants in F/HA. The only Kouma we knew that was worth anything was the Kouma that fought Kiri, because any other Koumas that followed were weaker than the real Kouma that fought Kiri. Kouma had sense of self. That's why he fought. He just didn't know what pain was before Kiri almost beheaded him.
>type advantage Nanaya Kiri thought someone who can fight Servants on equal terms was nothing speed-wise.
You can't be on equal terms with Servants if Servants can just beat you up willy-nilly before you lift a finger because you're slow. This clearly implies that Kiri was moving far faster than an average Servant and that humans can achieve such levels.
That said, the Nanaya are cheaters, since their bloodline has been preserved from the early 800s, 300 years removed from when King Arthur (Saber) existed in Britain.
>someone or something ordered the shadow and saber alter to capture berserker, even though sakura had no knowledge of it or intentions or anything "z-zouken s-somehow m-manipulated both!" >No idea what you're talking about here.
Why did the shadow travel all the way to illyas house and bring along saber just to capture berserker? sakura had no memories of it and had no desire to do so and zouken can't tell the shadow what to do.
it's just convenient for the plot for the shadow to come out at daytime specifically to fuck over everyone's plans.
>>120089277 Not without Frag. If you're talking about abusing the loops, we literally have no idea how that final loop actually happened. She could have timed it so some of them killed themselves for all we know.
Kouma's strength comes from being part oni, blowing shit up with fire, and using some kind of martial art. He did nothing but use his natural strength to randomly charge like a retard, so he obviously wasn't at his peak. If you think Kiri was Servant level, then you think Shiki is Servant level, oh wait Nasu said he wasn't.
>>120089339 Avenger has no official stat rank, but he's noted to be the weakest servant, on a scale where we have servants with all E rank stats already.
He would have to be below E rank.
Hans has all E rank aside from one stat, and he's noted to have no fighting ability. If it came down to a physical fight with him any almost anything else, it wouldn't go very well. Shota can't even throw a punch so much.
Shakespeare literally cannot even fight back against anyone, including humans. It's due to one of his skills in exchange for something else.
They're servants you have to use in a certain way. Like shedinja.
>>120089499 Shiki has the potential to surpass his father. He is clearly not there yet. At the point were DAAs can't even react to him properly. And as has been said, the Kouma that fought Kiri is the strongest Kouma. Every other Kouma after that Kouma is a weaker version.
>>120089310 So you think she could keep up and overwhelm Archer? That's what you're arguing.
Using Fragarach means that the person was screwed over enough that they have to use a trump card. So that means you think she can force Archer into a corner when hollow makes it clear that any Servant that just fights her normally is going to win easily. Lancer even goes something like D rank Frag would sting a bit, but she poses no threat unless I go and use Gae Bolg for our symbolic battle.
>>120089499 Bazett still defeated Servants. The Kouma that fought Kiri was the stronger Kiri than the other Koumas that showed up later. And he didn't charge randomly like a retard. Kiri was just too fast for him. And like people have been saying, Nanaya are not like regular humans. They trace their blood's purity from 300 years after Saber lived in Britain.
>>120089627 That's using assassin surprise modfiers. Not even Arc can react to that. In a straight up fight, Shiki still gets served. Where the hell did you get that idea about Kouma? The only thing we have is the TATARI version, but he's obviously quite a bit updated to the modern day version.
>>120089531 Think of the other potential short stories that Nasu could have written, but we got this instead.
Countless fucking things that would make more sense; a story focusing on Shirou, maybe show insights into his head, which the anime is sorely lacking, or maybe a story focusing on Rin, and seeing her perspective on how things in the first cour went down, or maybe a story that bridged the gap between Zero and UBW. I don't know.
I want to say I'm mad, but it's just to be expected at this point. The amount of Saber bullshit is getting out of control.
>>120089670 >So you think she could keep up and overwhelm Archer? That's what you're arguing. No which is why I don't believe in her defeating max Shirou and find it bullshit. Shirou has showed enough feats in FSN that far surpass her.
>>120089746 I haven't read RDG in a while, but I'm pretty sure Kiri doesn't outspeed him in the normal sense. The Nanayas run around the battlefield like spiders using weird movements to make up for their regular human nature.
>>120089881 >but I'm pretty sure Kiri doesn't outspeed him in the normal sense Then reread it again. Kiri traded initial blows (more like avoided and kept hitting Kouma's arms) and then just kept dodging each of Kouma's attacks until his weapon got stuck in Kouma's neck.
Now, the thing that seals this is Kiri directly says in RDG's text that Kouma's speed was nothing special "after I got used to it". And the reason for this is because Kiri was retired for six years raising Shiki. Kiri was rusty.
>>120090051 Plus, they're forgetting that Saber is a class, not a person. You can't really complain about one single Saber person like Arturia or Mordred because they don't get books all the time about them, but their other lookalikes do.
>>120090133 Mordred, obviously. Mordred never reproduced because "it" was killed by Saber, so there are no Saber descendants. Though there might be Nero descendants, no wait his kid died. What about a Romulus descendant?
>>120090082 She cannot defeat Servants except under the specific condition of making them use their Noble Phantasm, something she cannot do within the story without having Avenger act as psycho-bait. Seriously, Lancer points that he could take her easy as pie if he just melees her.
>>120090220 >looks like Seiba and is possibly descended from Bedevere. >from Bedivere Bedivere's a dude. >>120090234 Nero could have had plenty of bastards. She said she enjoyed having a harem in her past.
>>120089838 >a story focusing on Shirou, maybe show insights into his head, which the anime is sorely lacking, or maybe a story focusing on Rin, and seeing her perspective on how things in the first cour went down, or maybe a story that bridged the gap between Zero and UBW. Stop. I don't want to get mad at this.
>>120088697 >>caladbolg II's explosion can severely hurt saber, but doesn't even scratch berserker >Do you know nothing about Berserker whatsoever? I'm 100% sure caladbolg II took away one of berserkers lives. UFOtable anime decided to change that and make saber the one who did it for some bullshit reason.
>>120090351 In the VN he turns and attacks it right before it hits him, and there's a big cloud of dust. Maybe the explosion killed him and he regenerated (remember they don't know about God Hand yet at that point), or maybe him deflecting it negated the damage.
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