>>120375207 It's bad because there's no real culmination to the almost nonexistent story, having developed characters is pointless if it doesn't impact the story in any manner. It's average with some cool episodes, nothing more.
Have you ever read a good book? Are you able to pick up on subtleties.
You know, Hemingway thought that the deeper meaning of a story should not be spoon-fed, but should make itself implied.
I suggest going back and watching this series, without multitasking, or wanking off, between scenes. Actually take a minute to consider the plot, the motives of the characters. Why they act the way they do?
>>120375207 No non-retard thinks this. The right method of thought is that if they're going on about how something that's famous in the west is objectively the best thing ever, they might not know much about anime. However, it's also possible that they do and still like that thing a lot.
It's a mix of episodic with about 6 plot-critical episodes. What makes it good is that even the episodic episodes develop the characters in some permanent, tangible way, even if they don't push the central narrative along.
That's why it's better than something like Mushishi, which, while undoubtedly excellent episodically, doesn't really deliver much else (asides from a few recurring characters)
Honestly, the only thing that's really annoying is how in a show that's so distinctly western styled, yet done with delicious Japanese attention to detail in maintaining that style, we still have an "edgy" white haired nihilist antagonist with a katana.
What I disliked the most about it is that it has anime fun time in one episode and then fun time with some dark undertones. And then you have some random plot important episodes in there, which only end up being picked up again in the last few episodes. Which are done well, especially when you see how everything breaks down and spike gets dragged back into the past.
>>120376403 The two worst kind of people on /a/ are the /v/ tards who go "wah wahh /a/ only discusses moeshit" and the retards who go "wahh i love me some Sol with shitty cookie cutter characters because its "comfy", fuck off with your entry level shit while i post some anime that is super acessible to any retard on japan"
The culmination is that Spike chooses to confront Vicious in revenge for the future he could not have with Julia.
Spike also rejects returning to his empty, aimless present when he leaves Jet. Their lives as wandering bounty hunters was a passing illusion he used to bury his grief.
Finally, Spike rejects any hope for a better future when he walks away from Faye in the last episode.
Where Spike struggled with a past he could not forget, Faye struggled with a past she could not remember. When Faye later discovered her past life she learned (in both a metaphorical and literal way) that there is no going back. Faye ultimately rejects the past in favor of the life she has made with the crew of the Bebop, only to have it slip through her fingers.
Ed and Jet endure in the present. Where Ed is innocent, Jet is disillusioned. Both accept the moment they live in, but with different outlooks.
I don't understand why people seem to either think Cowboy Bebop is cancer that killed anime and the worst thing of all time, or the second coming of Christ and the best work of fiction ever created. I always thought it was a solid entertaining show, no more and no less. Same for NGE.
It is good but not great. The reason bebop gets so much shit here is because entry level faggots think of it as a work of art, when anyone who has watched more than a handful of anime know it is just good. So we pretend to hate it so entry level tards or /v/ tards who watched their first anime don't feel at home here right away.
>>120376705 Because bebop is very odd looking so it appeals to people who dont give much though about anime, which pisses off weeaboo faggots (you guys know what that word means, dont get butthurt) NGE is a big deal in the industry, it also gets praised for being "deep" while having cross imagery so people who never watched it think its considered "deep" because of the imagery and disregard it as overrated
>>120376705 Because it`s the best anime ever and no show will ever get to that level anymore, it sets the expectations very high. people are assmad that they don`t recognize the current moeshit as anything worthwhileand that that shit will never ever even get 1 percent of the greatness of bebop.
>>120376710 Julia cuck'd him when Spike was injured. Spike was friends with Vicious before Julia cuck'd Spike. Vicious then figured out that Spike had an affair with Julia.
Spike and Julia ran away from the organization - going by what the show has shown us, they both ran away successfully although not together and Spike encountered members of the Syndicate. Some people would say that Spike didn't really make it out alive and the whole series was just his dream in the afterlife.
It's kind of a hard show to hate, though. I can see people being completely indifferent or cold towards it - I still don't see what's so amazing about it - but I can't immediately think of anything about it (other than the fanbase) that would actually piss people off to the point of antipathy towards it.
>>120376931 >Some people would say that Spike didn't really make it out alive and the whole series was just his dream in the afterlife. why does every alternative interpretation of a show have to be that someone is dying and the whole thing is a dream before passing. The only way in how spike is dead is in how he didnt have anything to live for.
My problem with the series was the opposite to most people's, in that I actually liked the episodes that were more-or-less completely episodic. The Alien parody with the fridge lobster and that episode where everyone except Ed trips out on mushrooms are better than the Spike/Julia/Vicious stuff any day.
Am I the only one who thinks that the "subtleties" of Bebop are completely irrelevant to the actual experience? It doesn't seem to add anything when you say "Oh, but see, this episode represents Spike's improper attitude toward the past and responsibility" or something.
>>120377200 I thought this too. Those episodes were super comfy and fun, even when they were scary or crazy. Anytime I noticed it was a Spike-plot episode, I got ready for a feels trip that would leave me confused.
>>120377200 I like the middle-of-the-road ones the most, honestly. Vicious was fun but a little too over-the-top for my taste, and the ones with small-time criminals were more consistently interesting. The mushroom was fun, but the Alien one is bad. Feng shui is still the worst, though.
>>120376492 This. you can argue "rule of cool" all you want, but when you get down to it, bebop actually has a plot that's willing to stray with sides stories, while still coming full circle in the last few episodes in a meaningful way. Surprisingly few shows manage to pull this off right, and whether you consistent the show to be amazing of not, you have to admit they managed to do this while keeping wonderful tempo with the show's overall mood. If bebop is anything, it's a consistent experience.
>>120377353 Yeah, I thought the character development was pretty clunky and bordering on forced at times. There's a particularly cringey scene where Faye says something like "I LEARNED NOT TO TRUST ANYONE A LONG TIME AGO" or something equally painful.
>>120376492 >>120376953 >>120376582 It's sad that people here don't come away with at least this level of insight about the shit they obsess over, and that when someone happens to come by who isn't retarded, that person is hailed as a gem. I don't want to call /a/ dumb, because it will sound like I'm arrogant and my observation will be disregarded, but after being here for years and reading all the opinions that I have- you guys are dumb.
>>120377497 >Surprisingly few shows manage to pull this off right
Even the series with really engaging stories that have you downloading them as soon as they're subbed usually end really badly. It's astonishing how consistently bad most plot-driven anime endings are, actually.
>>120377497 >If bebop is anything, it's a consistent experience.
I'd disagree with that. My biggest gripe with Bebop is how you're having some great stories and the occasional plot relevant events, and then BOOM shit like the amusement park killer episode or the actual cowboy on a horse episode happens. The show would be infinitely better without that bullshit.
>>120377692 It was more his punchy, digestible way of putting it than what he actually said. Part of the problem with analyzing plot on /a/ is that people tend to get waffly, long-winded and boring. Imageboards aren't the place for that sort of essay-length discussion.
The older I get, the more appreciation I have for good writing - even if it's something really "pointless" like plot analysis of an anime.
Besides, the internet just exposes people to such a huge volume of awful writing (just look at your average "video games/anime blogger") that the good stuff seems even better by contrast, I suppose.
>>120377692 Why? Why would I care about this rejection/acceptance of the past? It just doesn't seem like a particularly interesting or useful interpretation. What does it add that Faye "rejects the past"?
Smoking? Not a fucking chance. In real life it's pretty stupid, yeah, but would Clint Eastwood's Man With No Name look cool without the perma-cigar hanging out of his mouth? Would any 1940s Noir hero look cool without a cigarette? Nope. Without cigarettes, Clint would be a loser with a lame hat and dorky poncho and noir heroes would be sad nerds in fedoras. Same for Spike, without his cigs he's an asshole with stupid hair.
>>120377734 I'm specifically regarding show that don't regard plot progression as a high priority. Cowboy Bebop was only 26 episodes and most of it was dicking around for bounties. Regardless, they still had the ending pull together in a way that made sense. Everything came full circle.
The dark pasts felt kinda tacked on so the "MY LEFT EYE SEES THE PAAAAAST" stuff never really stuck with me. Especially Faye's backstory. She's a much more appealing character if she's just an unbelievably shitty gambler who's pissed off/falling into debt with a lot of people instead of a cryogenically-frozen past-lady.
>>120378168 It was kind of meant to, though. It's invoking a noir/grungy atmosphere by throwing in every genre convention going. The entire setting doesn't even make sense, it's just an endless string of sleazy jazz clubs, back-alleys and empty space that acts as a backdrop for the characters to do whatever.
>>120378168 I think that's just to emphasize the western (genre, not region) aspects of the show. Given that its set in space, the sci-fi themes are ever present, whereas the western elements aren't - so you need to lay on the western motifs (cigarettes, cigars, ponchos, cowboys, saloons etc) - a little thicker.
Just take it and run with it. It's meant to be a bit whimsical after all.
>literally hella fuckin epic cdxddmmememe GRR I HATE MOESHIT BUG EYE ANIME FUCK I ONLY WATCH MATURE ANIME FOR MATURE GENTLEMEN SUCH AS MYSELF >ping pong, jin roh, lupin, evangelion and cowboy bebop are the best anime EVER made *tips fedora* FUCKING epik SHATTING MY PANTS OFFF >LOL fuck MOESHIT ANIME KYOANI KILLED ANIME LELELELLE AGREE FUCKING INVENTED MOE ANIME ISNT GOOD ANYMORE LOL TTGL IS THE BST ANIME EVER MADE XDD
The wrong part of the mainstream watched it. Find the anime "fans" whining about otaku killing the industry who hate everything from "moeshit" to pokemon and they list Cowboy Bebop among their favorites every time.
>>120378113 Exactly, they ended the show at the perfect time. If they had stretched it out the ending wouldn't of been as good, but if it was any shorter the conclusion would of been rushed. I feel as if 25-ish episodes for the kind of show Bebop was is usually Ideal.
>>120378002 Oh, I'm not asking why they put in the character-centric stuff and/or side plots - that's obviously important. I'm just asking why I would want to read that much into it, because what >>120376492 posted seemed to me like an overanalysis along faulty lines. I'd just say the characters are coming to terms with their circumstances and doing what they feel they have to. This "endurance in the present" stuff feels contrived and not particularly rewarding.
>>120378271 >The entire setting doesn't even make sense, it's just an endless string of sleazy jazz clubs, back-alleys and empty space that acts as a backdrop for the characters to do whatever. This is part of the reason why I dislike it so much
>>120378355 The majority of people who have seen Cowboy Bebop have never had a conversation about "otaku killing the industry" or "moeshit" or anything of the sort. You're thinking too small. But then, that's what /a/ does to people.
>>120378168 I have literally no idea what you're arguing at this point. It's trying too hard to be mature, but it doesn't actually think it's mature, it's just creating an atmosphere, but it's doing it too "forcefully" (it's a pastiche of genres, of course it'll display its influences strongly)? What do you mean?
Yeah, that's just language though - perhaps it comes across as a little too verbose, but ultimately what he's saying is that Jet is the only one who really deals with his past in such a way that he can stick with the life he has been living.
>>120375207 I actually began watching Cowboy Beebop with friends since everyone said it was good entry-level stuff. Five episodes in, we all wondered why did anyone ever say it's good and switched to something else. In the end, I enjoyed it, after 20 episodes the characters have grown on you stuff, but I wouldn't say it's a masterpiece
>>120378575 I've explained my reasoning as best as my limited vocabulary allows me to. To put it simply, I disliked the forceful maturity in the atmosphere, it just didn't stick with me. I guess it's because I can't imagine a setting like this. It doesn't make sense to me and I felt it could have done better.
What do you mean by "forced," and what would it need to do to be "better"? Not like, what actual changes, but what sort of changes (like, did it need to be more like reality, or less eclectic, or what)?
>>120378813 Does Faye do it in the same way as Jet though?
I'm struggling as it has been years since I watched Bebop, but from what I remember Jet seems to accept Spike's way of resolving everything in a way Faye doesn't. Maybe that's just him being less emotional as a matter of course though.
Although I suppose you could argue it's clear Faye had a thing for Spike and that Spike going off and getting himself killed closes off that last chance of a happy life Faye felt she could have had.
Jet had already accepted the Bebop was his life from now on well before that I think.
Forgive me if I'm forgetting anything, as I said, it has been years.
Spike doesn't die at the end. And the director was interested in making a sequel but didn't want to piss off fans who would be upset to see what they saw as a definitive ending for Spike ruined by a sequel.
>>120378970 I think their relationship with their own past is about the same. She comes to acknowledge and move past her past, as he does. And I don't think Jet can be said with any certainty to have a happy life after this - he's just made his choice of how to struggle through it.
>>120377734 Most Japanese plots try to top each other in being "significant" leading to overcomplexity that could ruin the experience for some people. Overcomplexity can ruin things for people. Hell, look at Kingdom Hearts despite most of that complexity being completely peripheral
>>120379152 >Star Trek TOS was great for it's time, but without nostalgia glasses
Most of it is overacted campy fun these days, but there are a couple episodes which stand out as being genuinely good pieces of sci-fi writing. The mirror universe, A Taste of Armageddon and Balance of Terror come to mind.
>Next generation is far better. It was written wonderfully
It was written wonderfully, but a lot of the time it lacked energy and momentum. Even when they had a really solid plot/interesting moral dilemma or whatever, they still sometimes managed to turn it into 30 minutes of people saying the same thing over and over with a painful 15 min sideplot where Riker goes on a date or something.
>>120378945 >What do you mean by "forced," Needed less time focusing on the setting, more on the story >and what would it need to do to be "better" If it focused more on the emotional setting, it would have left a better impact in my opinion at least.
>>120379360 >Needed less time focusing on the setting, more on the story
But in a lot of episodes there isn't a story to focus on, you're just meant to enjoy the characters and atmosphere. The best way I can put it is "style over substance" except as a compliment rather than a criticism. The style is the substance.
A lot of your criticisms (other than the weird smoking one) make it seem like you were expecting something completely different to what the show was trying to be.
>>120375313 >being this millennial There was a point in time when story telling was show and not tell and there wasn't a neat, hand-wrapped answer to every question provided by the author, and literally everything was better for it. Get some fucking taste you scrub.
Rewatched Cowboy bebop recently and it made me appreciate even more. Since Bebop was one of my first shows I ever watched I could never really appreciate its production values and its subtle plot compared to other anime from around the time or even today. In presentation and direction Bebop is a 10/10 show with minor hic ups in some of the later episodes (mainly those to do with Jet). I watched it in Blu-Ray with surround sound and the Art is probably the best I have seen in a TV anime and the Soundtrack is amazingly well composed. It is when you compare it to like Trigun or Outlaw Star that you realize this show was on another level entirely, presentation wise this is closer to the massive budget OVA's of the 90's like Giant Robo and 08th MS Team. After watching hundreds of anime Cowboy Bebop is definitely worth revisiting if it was one of your first, it gets better with experience.
>>120379345 Next Gen had it's eye rolling episodes, but when It was good, it was REALLY good. They were willing to ask some big philosophical questions, and the science behind most of the plot was super solid, even for today. TOS was great for the campy stuff, but It's not something that's ever been able to draw my fascination like Next gen has. Plus Patrick Stewart's acting is jizz inducing.
>>120379672 Oh yeah, it's way better than Trigun and Outlaw Star. Outlaw Star's probably the closest thing in terms of themes, and while good, it's nowhere near as good.
Samurai Champloo is a good example of a series that is similar in feel, but has markedly less interesting characters, less enjoyable episodic stories and a fairly unedifying main plot. It's good as a point of comparison actually, given the same sort of structure and that it's also by Watanabe.
>>120380239 >All of which is contained within..what 4 total episodes
Only Spike's story. Counting the rest of the cast you have a solid 10 or so episodes of pure character and story development. The series truly concludes at 24, 25-26 is just Spike's story. 24 is when ED's arc finishes and Faye finally discovers everything about her past. Probably the most story driven episode actually was the one with videotape about Faye's past but people tend to overlook that one for some reason.
>>120380050 That's why it's bad for newcomers to watch it, in a way. Lots of newfriends who watch Bebop invariably ask us what else is like it, and we rec stuff like Trigun or Outlaw Star - but really, the similarities are superficial - in terms of feeling, Bebop is incredibly unique, in the medium of animation anyway.
>>120376492 Something I always found amusing, is that the show itself is blatant as being an existential exploration. Hand in hand with that, there is a feeling of isolation throughout the show, particularly with Spike and Faye. But, it seems only through their relationship that Faye is able learn and exist in the present.
>>120376492 >Finally, Spike rejects any hope for a better future when he walks away from Faye in the last episode. > When Faye later discovered her past life she learned (in both a metaphorical and literal way) that there is no going back. Faye ultimately rejects the past in favor of the life she has made with the crew of the Bebop, only to have it slip through her fingers.
Stop making me sad Anon.
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