It's been 15 years since Tsukihime, 10 since FSN If you had learned japanese since then you could be excited for stuff that will actually be released like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pN-2vVt7hcc
>>121443378 "Fuck all this Fate shit and servants, Nasu has forgotten the real and true fans, the original and real story here. Remember Dead Apostles? Nasu doesn't, fuck him. Remember vampires and Arcuied, or mystic eyes? Nasu doesn't, fuck him. Fuck servants, when is Nasu going to get back to the real story here, the actually interesting story, rather than rehashing all the shit I don't care about. Get back to the one thing I do care about already. Remake never! Nasu has forgotten us, Shiki can kill servants, Tsukihime was ten times the game and fifty times the atmosphere of Fate, fuck Nasu for forgetting the one actual good game he's made".
>>121443759 What I wanted to say is that none of this appeals to me anymore and for some reason I linger around these threads hoping people will talk about something interesting and it's always the same shit over and over again
>>121443439 What about the people that only got into TM thanks to Tsukihime, never liked Fate and only read it out of obligation? It's not even worth whining. I used to be one of the biggest Tsukihime fans, now I lost nearly all interest in it.
>>121443791 I recently revisited Tsukihime after having been in love with it as my first VN. I still think the story has a lot of really fantastic elements, but it's hard to ignore the flaws in some of the writing and pacing. Also, I prefer the latter 3 storylines over the initial 2 because there is much more focus on the psychology of the main character's household/past, which was far more interesting to me than getting involved in some unrelated conflict.
>>121443835 Between Tsukihime and FSN, I think Tsukihime has more interesting characters while FSN has an overall better story. I think that it would be really tough to make an anime out of Tsukihime because the strongest psychological elements and character development are the focus of the "alternative" storyline, which would require significant rewriting to make those characters at all relevant to the "canon" storyline.
>>121444595 I actually never visited Kagetsu Tohya in fear that it would make me feel uncomfortable with the characters/story in a "sequelitis" way. Reading an overview of the plot made me feel pretty weird about it. It's not out of the question, but nobody has given me a strong recommendation for it so I've just been focusing on reading other high-rated VNs (I've still read very few, relatively speaking).
I love MB but never got to the story even though I'm pretty interested, especially since there are a bunch of new characters to be fleshed out instead of more of the same (I feel all the characters in Tsukihime were already concluded very well). I'm sure I'll get to it at some point.
I felt that quite a few characters in FSN were pretty weak. Disregarding romance, I felt Kirei, Archer, and Ilya were top-tier characters, followed by Rin, and then most of the others left something to be desired (though side characters such as Assassin generally had incredibly flavorful personalities, which I loved).
I liked Saber's backstory and internal conflict, but I felt like it only played a real role toward the very end of the story, and she was very uninteresting for the majority. Similar case with Sakura in Heavens Feel where she has a captivating backstory but is uninteresting as a character.
UBW and HF came to life thanks to Archer and Kirei, respectively. But, while the story for each was really fantastic, I felt that Shirou as a character detracted from them a bit. I believe Nasu (and possible Japanese culture) value a main character sticking to their guts even if it's perceived as stupid, while American culture values a main character having a change of heart and becoming a better person. Shirou is the "stick to his guts even if it's stupid" kind of guy, which, in my opinion, weakened some of the most climactic moments and generally led him to some peevish decisions.
I haven't watched the KnK movies yet but I'm incredibly excited to do so. Would also love to read Mahoyo but tfw suck at Japanese
>>121445398 Didn't read Hollow for reasons similar to not reading Kagetsu, in that I'm satisfied with the conclusion and I'm afraid of sequelitis, and because there are other VNs I'd rather be reading.
Fate/Zero blew me away and is currently the only anime I'm comfortable giving a 10/10 (again, haven't watched much anime either, relatively speaking). I think it took the unique premise of FSN and completely nailed it through incredible character interactions and dialog. I felt that FZ was less about the fighting and more about the dynamics between Servant and Master, as well as Servant and Servant. Beneath each physical battle was a battle of wits, willpower, and morality, which was brought to life with some amazing dialog and unique character pairs.
I think it's amazing that the viewer was not so much rooting for good against evil, but rather rooting for the character with the best morals, motives, and goals. Saber's morality was attacked throughout virtually the entire series, which, paired with Kiritsugu's actions, raised some insightful philosophical statements on what it means to be a hero, and how the sought-after "textbook hero" cannot exist. When you consider that Saber and Kiritsugu are the "good guys", you start to realize how unique the characters are. Plus, the fact that the viewer ends up taking a strong liking to Rider, and even a few things about Gilgamesh, really exemplifies the strong character development.
Basically, any time FZ presents an issue that the viewer is used to being black and white, it ends up waay more complex than that, which is really awesome in my opinion.
>>121446386 Rider vs Archer, and Saber vs Berserker. In these two battles, I think this episode more than ever shows the definitive difference between "kings" and "knights" as established by the series up to now. All the development of the Servants comes full circle here as we see the true meaning behind what it means to truly be a king.
A king is a leader, one who holds within himself the ultimate authority of his rule, and his pride commands that he treats all others as subjects or rivals, without compromise. A king is not just one of the guys. You cannot lead if you are trying to be equal to your subjects. You must stand above them and be seen and respected like a god.
Gilgamesh is a king, even as a Servant he is the king of kings. He takes no shit from Tokiomi, and never treated him as someone he respected or followed. He treats Kirei as a curious partner, but expects to be respected as he should be. The partnership works because Kirei recognizes what his Servant is, and treats him accordingly.
Iskandar is a king, and this is a point which took Waver a while to realize. At first he treated him as a mere Servant, and was annoyed by how they were not giving each other the full attention required to move forward in the Grail War. With time and experience he started to learn who Iskandar really is, and how he thinks. With newfound respect for his king, their relationship changed into one of true friendship and loyalty.
>>121446424 The fight between the two kings is the only battle in the entire series which is carried out on the exact terms and wishes of the Servants, not the masters. This is fitting because as kings they would have the right to pick their own battles, and decide how to carry them out. No one else is to interfere or to question it.
This is a direct contrast to the sort of petty fights of honor fought between Saber and Lancer. It is no coincidence that in all those battles, they could never complete the battles on their own terms, because of interference from their Masters. This shows that they have the mindsets of mere knights, and will always be simply cogs in the larger machinery they are part of. Thus Saber is not a true king at all, but a knight who happened to be given the title of one. She will always want to be just one of the other guys.
This is also contrasted again in the episode itself, where Saber's battle with Berserker is that of two knights with differences, battling it out. The combat is more visceral, with much more dynamic camera work, and is very exciting to watch. But yet it is always clear that they are both fighting for the sake of their Masters here, and that is the only reason they are "allowed" to face each other. In any other situation previously, Berserker was always withdrawn because his Master doesn't actually want him fighting Saber.
The battle between Rider and Archer in comparison is less "exciting" to watch because it is not a melee battle between fighters, but instead pre-planned series of attacks with the conclusion long decided before the actions even began. Such is how kings operate. They plan strategies and carry them out, almost in a turn-based manner, and the one who has the ultimate advantage wins. Instead of being exciting to watch moment to moment, the overall battle felt more like a tapestry - a single beautiful large scale moment in time.
>>121446386 >>121446432 I'm not a regular on 4chan or /a/ so I have no idea what kinds of bandwagon/circlejerk opinions exist here that I'm feeding or challenging. I'm just dumping my thoughts based on my personal exposure. You're welcome to tear me to shreds if it's customary.
Anyway, the point isn't really "wow gray morality is new and awesome" but more the fact that I liked how the series was *about* morality, and how those with black and white morals were either punished or generally less likable. I went in expecting there to be a focus on conflict in fighting but was pleasantly surprised when there was so much additional character depth.
>>121446615 You're fine. The issue Fate fans have been having is trolling their sacred series is an outrage that threatens to tear apart this totally cool and tasteful fanbase, of which is full of intelligent and artisitic individuals.
>>121446656 >normal people hate FSN because of how shit it is compared to a non-insertfagging anime >insertfagging faggots angry that normal people hate their insertfagging anime/VN/show Why am I not surprised?
>Tsukihime thread at the start filled with intelligent discussion about how well an adaptation would work and the eventual remake would be Nasu's magnum opus also helping people get into the series >Fatefags come along and shit it up
Regarding the entire Grail vision sequence, I think it is pretty effective how they had call backs to all the set pieces throughout the series. The Grail was basically using Kiritsugu's memories and consciousness against him, and it was fitting that most of the visions are based on locations he was familiar with - scenes from throughout the series, including the flashback episodes, and generally locations where major events occurred.
These are places he is familiar with, and they are places the audience is also familiar with. Hence the argument the Grail makes against Kiritsugu is one which the audience can also make against him, which makes it a natural and valid challenge. It also justifies the development his character has undergone in the series, because he is judged based on actions and decisions he made which the audience are familiar with.
The way he ultimately rejects the Grail is a very chilling scene, and plain uncomfortable to watch. It does show that he is one who does not hesitate to put an end to a charade when he has had enough of it, but it was still rather disturbing. What he had to go through with the Grail puts him in a rather justified position to do what he has to do at the end of the episode, even though Saber would probably never understand.
>>121446865 I'd like to go back to that, actually. I think the remake is a really awesome chance for Nasu to revisit a story he was probably not even happy with after finishing it (I doubt he was keen on VN-ifying or ero-ifying his writing and ended up making a bunch of sacrifices as a result). But an extra 15 years of experience under his belt will probably take the original strong characters and give them a more masterfully-executed story (and writing). I would actually be pretty happy to see the ero removed so that story details don't need to be worked around it.
You know how Nasu was forced to cut down a lot of the story because of time constraints? I feel like that actually shows in some of the writing because Arcueid and Ciel often have some very long-winded explanations getting into the nitty-gritty of how magic and vampires work, etc. Within the context of the story at hand, a lot of it isn't necessary, and I feel like it's there because Nasu spent years and years fleshing out this universe before having to settle on kind of this enclosed VN experience with only a few characters and a story pretty far-removed from all of the Magi associations out there.
>>121447116 To expand on this, it's really just an opinion but I think a lot of the current Tsukihime could be further abridged to make for much better pacing and focus on relevant story and character development. If I had infinite free time I would probably take on a project like that.
>>121447116 One of my biggest complaints was how similar the far-side routes and the near-side routes were. Not to mention the same big plot twists were in every route and you had to go through them over and over again. The final boss in every route was SHIKI for god's sake.
>>121442822 They have almost nothing in common apart from being fish out of water characters, being blonde and supposedly being overpowered whilst actually ending up massively nerfed most of the time. What a silly comparison.
The thing with Shiki/little Shiki was, as has been shown throughout the route, that the one with the stronger will to prevail will. This is just how it came to fruition. If Shiki was weak willed, he would have accepted the dream world and "lived" that lie, while his actual body died. But, because he was shown to have a strong will, he saw past the illusions and realized that it wouldn't be worth it to live the lie. So, he accepted that he was dead. However....well, it should make more sense pretty soon as to why he couldn't die.
>>121447313 That's very true, and it's one reason I would like to see some of the story condensed/abridged (so the recurring plot twists are a little less drawn-out). The most interesting part about playing each new route was learning about that character's backstory and seeing how they get involved with the main conflict. Each far-side route kind of "sets up" for the next one, where you get to learn more and have everything tie together a little bit more. It leads to a really strong conclusion in the final route, in my opinion, but again, some condensing the redundancy up to that point would be nice.
Honestly I don't think Tsukihime would ever work in an animated setting. For one the routes don't really have substance by themselves and all the far side routes don't really include 2 of the main heroines at all. I feel like if Tsukihime is ever made into an anime it would probably be 5 OVAs/films akin to Kara No Kyoukai and a 6th longer OVA for Kagetsu Tohya, but I would be better with Nasu writing a new story that involves elements of all the routes and applies them to 1 story.
>>121447557 Also Arcueid is the last boss in Ciel's route (SHIKI dies midway through), so coincidentally you just skipped the ones that were different. I really reccomend finishing Kohaku's though, it's the climax of the VN, and Shiki vs Akiha is the best fight.
It's not so much that Ciel was born with amazing powers, but rather the potential. It said something about Ciel having more magic circuits than any human Roa had ever encountered or something along those lines. I believe the idea was that if she could utilize those, she could easily reach a level of ability comparable to a high-level vampire or a heroic spirit. She could move as fast as Arcueid and fought her to a near stalemate her several times, though she couldn't compete with Arc's ability to draw from a perpetual well of energy at night. Arc is the strongest of the True Ancestors, so that makes me wonder if Ciel just might be a more powerful sorcerer than any living magus. It would explain quite a lot if Arcueid's personal grudge against Ciel is because she was very nearly destroyed when Roa was backing her.
>Nasu: Rin really is a genius. Given time, she'll enter within the top 100 magi of the Association throughout its entire history. Shirou won't move out from being an magus apprentice, but as a spell-user, he'll be among one of the big specialists. Ultimately, he'll receive an evaluation on the same level as "Magus Killer" Emiya Kiritsugu had in his peak, maybe. If I were to put into simple numbers, Ciel: 100, Rin: 70-100, Shirou: 10 (under particular limited conditions, then 40).
Ciel is the strongest human character as far as I know.
Roa never marked Ciel; Arcueid killed his previous incarnation before he could find an appropriate host. Somehow his essence "defaulted" onto Ciel, possibly due to her high but untapped magic potential. Roa was surprised, since Ceil was definitely powerful, but he would never normally have chosen her because her family had no political influence. As for the transfer 8 years ago, when Arc killed Ceil Roa moved into his chosen host Tohno SHIKI, but he again didn't anticipate what sort of body he'd been reincarnated into. The splitting of Tohno's mind and body caused Tohno's original self to lose control over his nonhuman half. He went berserk before he reached maturity, long before Roa would have chosen to take over. This resulted in the fight between the "brothers," and as they say, the rest is history.
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