I don't have the original picture edition
Guide (Start here): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jrMXTVapkGlYSyQDwppETbz62ltcknJITQ7ll6bH8QM/edit?usp=sharing
DJT Reading List (Add what you read here): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DkEYXMc9vKmrPFwVUrKdzT9UgDQV6JS0V7XhYuTCgto
Updated: mobile devices: http://pastebin.com/nv0iNQs2
Cornucopia of Resources: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fnp8ufkIX3coN5OZF-xCtu4y1bd4TPdfZbqhrsv5Gew
Anki Startup Guide: http://pastebin.com/xQ6qeQib
Previous Thread: >>121534397
Nice. I've been working on my Kanji, Vocab and grammar, but I've been told that I shouldn't be working on Vocab until I at least 500+ Kanji under my belt. Should I stop doing Core2k (What I use for Vocab) until I get more Kanji? Core2K is pretty fun to learn but if it'll be too much than I'll stop.
It really isn't autism at all. We have a set image which tells people exactly what is in the thread. Not only that, whoever made the thread once again fucked up the link AND fucked up the thread number.
To quote someone else who covered this pretty well already: https://archive.moe/a/thread/121576357/#q121577499
I'd like to continue, but the reason the guy told me I should wait is that it might be too overwhelming to do it all and I wouldn't be able to apply what I learn straight away, and so it would deduct from the experience of learning Kanji and grammar.
Last thread was #985.
>but the reason the guy told me I should wait is that it might be too overwhelming
The guy has no idea what overwhelming is for you. If you are enjoying yourself with it there is little reason to stop.
Why can't you continue with core2k while learning kanji and grammar? 両方だよ
Don't go apologising to anons. Half the time they are mindlessly repeating things they've read and most of the rest of the time they are talking about things they haven't experienced.
Want some real advice? The people who really know their shit about Japanese are the ones too busy learning to tell other people how to learn. You don't owe shit to anyone.
>It isn't cancer and I didn't have the original OP image because nobody has been using for it a while.
Look at the fucking archive.
Fuck you. You fucked up due to being lazy. Accept the criticism and get over your ego. This is where you apologize, suck it up, and make sure not to fuck up again.
The worst people are the ones who decide to take action while not being able to handle getting told off when they screw up because these are the people who are too egotistical to learn from it.
Do you know how someone like whelpくん manages this incredible amound of cards each day?
I need 3 hours for about 60 new cards+reviews of core 6k. Did he ever tell his way of studying the new cards? Or did he do rtk/kd first.
Im a kind of jealous type you know..
I am doing 40 new per day with core2k6k optimized and it takes me 1 hour if I go fast, 1 and a half otherwise. You should be able to do it in 2 hours I think.
I have done RTK though and it helps a lot.
I'm confused about the 人影はなく here, is it just saying there was no one around or is it a phrasing of some sort, but the thing is after this line theres another that has a testimony from someone, so does that mean 人影はなく just means there wasn't a lot of people around or does it implicitly mean there was NO ONE there?
Well, that not true. People getting upset about the OP fucking up/posting anything else than the OP picture has been a perennial theme here. Well, not so much the OP picture maybe, as that has been a constant since that guy stopped posting kanji information
The more fantasy the game the more fantasy terms you'll encounter, at best you'll get a lot of katakana exposure. If you want more general Japanese I'd recommend something more SoL-y.
Still, there's value in being strict about these things. OP sets the tone for the rest of the thread, and if people decide that they're special snowflakes and start using the OP as an outlet for their own attention needs then I don't doubt that before long we'll crumble into being no better than /vg/ generals. Which would be sad considering how long these threads have managed to keep some a semblance of composure
Look through the archives. whelpくん has gone into a fair amount of detail going into exactly how he reviews, what his plans are with it, the card format, exactly what is tested, the statistics for each day, etc. Excessively. You could probably go back through the archives the past two weeks and use all the data posted and make a scientific report about it.
I did that for a while - doing all my cards plus 30 new each day until it started ranking up 2 hours and i felt the burn. I haven't gone crazy with reps for about a week and have just been reading and getting better at vocab. I realized that i dont just forget everything just like that if ive truly learned it.
I don't recall. Maybe 2 years ago? Some time after that there was a period where a kind anon posted almost all threads, and on time, but unfortunately he didn't respond well when people complained that he'd been fucking up the OP a lot lately and stopped/left. That's when this last period of epic OPs began
I'm at 120 and I feel like I've learned an absolute ton of stuff so far. But that's because I already had a decent vocab from watching animu for over a decade.
Are you using RTK or something? Because I did that for a while last year and realised all the knowledge didn't mean shit because I couldn't read anything.
Reading is for adapting to meaning; reviewing is for planting seeds and watering.
>Anyone looking for djt searches for it.
Non sequitor. People who don't know about DJT do not know where to look. How do you think I found these threads? By noticing the OP image in the archive.
That's the point of the OP image: to attract attention and communicate relevant information as to the nature of the thread. This may be 4chan but we don't have to all act like children. A bit of rationality and management goes a long way.
People who don't know about DJT are directed here the second they ask "how do I learn Japanese" on pretty much any board.
The OP image isn't even a tenth as important as the links and subject.
Well, everyone makes mistakes, and people in this thread are particularly viscous, so unless you were kanken-1 above-native tier you'd probably have a hard time getting by in this thread
Well my vocab is decent as well but even with 500 kanji I can still only read the total babby stuff. Being able to read basic stuff is nice at first but it feels like progress almost came to a halt after that.
When I check japanese news sites etc and I can read almost nothing of it then it really feels like I've learned shit
Has anyone here passed kanken-1? Or at least attempted any level of kanken?
I asked Moogy on his ask.fm once and he claimed he'd be able to take on kanken-1 vocabulary wise, though he can't write for shit.
>Circling my remote control like a pilot would do, a feeling grips my penis, thrashing it violently.
>Shyown shyown... Nyyyaarrowwn
Even if I still suck at translationg, VNs are becoming a whole lot funner to read.
For some reason I couldn't stop laughing after reading this conversation.
Thanks for the archive link.
This is for anon in the last thread:
Raws are in two different versions.
This one is slightly cleaner than the other version. Normal resolution but much lower compared to the second version, which is rather high res.
High res version (this is still uploading at the moment. You can download the volumes as they upload but it might take another hour and a half, two hours to upload all volumes):
Sent and explained the links to the owner of the CoR's email. No response yet.
>People who don't know about DJT are directed here the second they ask "how do I learn Japanese" on pretty much any board.
Not in my experience. Regardless, it is pretty stupid to further obfuscate the thread any more than it already is.
>arguing about meta /djt/ instead of studying Japanese
The Misaki voice for NeoSpeech TTS isn't that bad. From what I've heard when she is on, which is about 90% of the time, it sounds native like. The program sometimes messes up pitch accent though, taking into account that 10% when it comes across like a machine.
There are probably a few torrents for it out there.
>commenting and trying to ridicule people for arguing about meta /djt/ instead of studying Japanese
Yellow brick road all the way to Narnia.
Thanks a heap. I've been trying to download it from perfect dark after reading about it in the last thread without getting anywhere. Not that anon but you saved me a lot of time.
Even if the rest of the thread goes to shit this has made it good overall.
なんだ is なのだ that tae kim explains. って is a quoting particle that in this case serves as an abbreviation for って言ってるの and emphasizes what comes before it. の is emotional emphasis.
Anki really doesnt teach you shit but give you a visual of the words. If you ACTUALLY thought anki would teach you the language youer insane.
The only way to learn something is to actually do it.
Anki is an accessory
>Alright now actually write that kanji
A whole six seconds. Staggering.
It is のだ・んだ+だって・たって+の
Have a read of those pages. It is what Tae Kim covers but with accurate detail.
Seriously though fuck kanji. No wonder so many japs commit sudoku when they constantly have to deal with this shit growing up and in their daily lives.
You can learn several other languages in the time it takes to master kanji
>Ill for a week
>Now have a stupidly big backlog which I'll probably only get 60% retention on
>ill for a week
>somehow unable to click through a few cards
Are you legit retarded or something? How can you be that sick for that long? I've had one day of being that sick ever, when I had flu with no medication.
>Core2k is pretty fun to learn
i think so too. i'm almost to 4kwords in core2k/6k (doing 50 new words daily), and 2-4 grammar study per day (used to be daily vjg videos. more recently, daily DOJG entries)
the grind is fun when you get the feeling of actually remembering words i had trouble with the week prior. the grind is rewarding when you browse yomiuri can actually read many full sentences without a dictionary. the more you work the more rewarding it is.
but i'm sure the rapid progress eventually slows down and there's probably a really long plateau phase (assuming that learning a language is like anything else).
It has one form. Or well, two. It can mean 'and', onto which interpretations such as cause can applied depending on context, or it can be used adverbially
>I ate a bad apple and got sick (cause)
Does someone know why so many protagonists have their names written in katakana? ex: シンジ
Sometimes they even have an official kanji spelling but the katakana version is still used 99% of the time. ex: キリト
That can't be right. Especially when it comes to works aimed at older teens/adults, or anime where the protagonist's name is rarely if ever shown in written form.
If that's the reason why do I hardly ever see katakana names in eroge? The last thing I want to do while edging is struggling to decipher gook runes.
a non-[subject]-ish face
A face that the speaker would ordinarily find unexpected or unusual for the subject to wear, though the sentence here says that, whatever the situation is, it's not surprising for the subject to make it.
1) It's a real Japanese name, so of course there are a variety of standard kanji spellings.
2) There can also be a variety of nonstandard Japanese spellings. Psycho Pass's Kirito is 桐斗
3) Since it's a basically a play on SAO Kirito's real name, 桐ヶ谷 和人, it could be written as 桐(ヶ谷和)人. This is, not coincidentally, a standard spelling for the name Kirito.
4) Even if it was a foreign word it could be written phonetically in kanji as was usual in pre-modern Japanese, like the Chinese still do today.
5) And if all else fails, you can still string some meaningful kanji together and claim that you are supposed to read them "Kirito" for no reason, because Japanese is fun like that.
Is there a Japanese version of DJT where they learn English instead.
And if you're writing for Shounen Jump, you can pretend 青眼の白龍 is read BURUUAIZU HOWAITO DORAGON and so on.
nigga how you sposed to read that shit
It isn't that hard to read, and natives can recognise kana intuitively.
Try reading a sign or something from a distance in English. Chances are you will be able to make out what it says by the general shape.
I cant make heads or tails out of this guys.
Its something to do with not knowing some reason, and something about bringing them here.
あんな訳の分からん理由で is a reason you can't understand (from わけがわからない)
連れて来られる is to be dragged along, it's the passive not the conditional as >>121649403 says.
たら is the conditional, meaning "if you were". The implication is that if you were dragged along for such an incomprehensible reason, you'd... (something that they've done). They're expressing understanding.
I'm the guy you replied to. Yeah, I could read most of it but there were a few words I didn't know. I could guess most of them from context and I understood the story, but the ending was a bit abrupt?
>but the ending was a bit abrupt?
That's the point. It's a joke. Instead of going up level by level (standard horror story stuff) she goes to the elevator and he goes ツッコミ on her.
Oh. That went above my head.
I thought that the last sentence was supposed to be the moral of the story that you shouldn't be dishonest like the guy who didn't report the accident.
I understand now that it was the guy calling the little girl a cheater.
I've seen this わ a couple of times now but it's not totally clear to me. In this case at least するわ seems to function like して, or even just rattling off events like したり or even とか.
It's a bit difficult to Google, all the explanations talk about that other わ.
Don't feel too bad. I had to look up 横着 to understand it. Beyond that, you have to be able to read it at a decent pace otherwise the creeping sense of dread kind of doesn't build properly and you don't get the surprise factor at the end.
Yeah, I had this problem some years ago. It's just listing a bunch of occurrences with exasperation.
You can look up the particle in yahoo dictionary or whatever and find it there too.
Is it fine if my studying goes from hiragana -> katakana -> basic particles and grammar -> Kanji or should I be doing something else before I dive into kanji. I'm almost done with 1st grade Kanji and I am not sure if I am doing this correctly.
Given the amount of entries in DOJG, how would one practically study it? I feel that just reading through the 3 volumes wouldn't be enough to make most of it stick. Is it feasible to make flashcards out of it?
Is this true?
Read and reference. Reading is a skill all its own and is generally more valuable than specific grammar points/vocabulary.
I don't know. Drama subs are almost always completely wrong, so I don't trust that English as far as I can throw it.
Try reading through it using the order listed in the CoR on the 日本語文法辞典 sheet.
Here is the order:
I'm reading through them myself using this order, roughly. It is proving immensely helpful.
Referencing and reading it IS study. Stop mindlessly repeating things anons on DJT mindlessly repeat. Use your imagination a little.
のほうがいい isn't a set phrase so I'm not entirely sure why you're attached to that. 方がいい is a method of comparing things, and 方 is a noun. You use の to connect that with another noun, and you don't need anything for a verb. This is the same as all other Japanese clauses.
Does anyone has a cracked version of Human Japanese, either Pc or android? i found the trial very useful and i'll love to buy it, but i lack of any means of online purchase atm
Well, there's the sentence "電車と車とどっちのほうが速いですか" which I'm sure is grammatically correct.
I'm also pulling this out of a lesson book, if that helps
Sorry, things like this do go over my head. As for the reading, what should I be reading? I typically just run through lessons or read easy content like Japanese graded readers.
You should read something you like. If you're completely clueless and just starting, there's nothing wrong with going through a guide like genki or tae kim to get acquainted with things. But try to find something you want to read and read it. It can be something you've read in English before if that helps you.
>you shouldn't go page to page memorizing the contents and stuff.
Why the fuck not? It helped me immensely. Apply the same to Tae Kim's grammar guide, because it is the same thing only structured in a more user friendly manner. Did you read through all of that despite not reading those concepts and patterns in native text yet?
Get your head out of your ass. This "doofus" has done that and it has helped more than the guide every sperg on DJT tells people to read before reading native media. How much Japanese do you actually know? Fuck I can't stand you autismal pricks who cannot comprehend that there is more than One True Method of learning a fucking language.
Im just fearful because it dosent seem systematic enough. You encounter one grammatical element one day you dont see it for a week. You see a pattern but can't apply it elsewhere because you don't understand it. That kind of stuff.
Maybe i should wait a month, then reread it to assure i understand?
Of course not. Now are you going to give me practical advice or just be a ass?
>it doesn't seem systematic enough
You're looking at this the wrong way. This isn't like you're studying for an exam or something. You're trying to read Japanese. The best way to get used to that and to get proficient at it is, in general, to read Japanese. If you don't encounter something enough to remember, it's probably not very important and you're not losing much of anything anyway. This is how language works, and it's why there are tons of words that have been used a couple times that no one remembers unless they have specific reason to.
>Now are you going to give me practical advice or just be a ass?
What's being said in the upper right window? It's about alcohol being added to sake
にする means to decide on, meaning they make 1 ton of rice and use 120 liters of seed alcohol. 本醸造酒's rikai entry explains this. The guy is confused because why are you using sake to make sake, but the seed alcohol is not really "sake" but ethyl alcohol made from 廃糖蜜.
Would probably have been easier to understand this if we knew that she was explaining 本醸造酒 in the first place, but I found it by googling.
At the end i installed mozc and it works like a charm.
I started a JLTP vocab exercise on memrise and holy mother of god if it's hard, but it really makes you memorize both the kanji the meaning and the pronunciation.
Hm. It makes perfect sense to me if you replace it with で言うならば, but I'm having trouble finding any examples of にして being used like that. It is kind of bothering me since I read quite a bit and this particular line doesn't click with me.
Yes, I understand that. That's why I posted it as a comparison. What I asked is if this (>>121656890) is a similar usage or not.
Specifically, ならば implies supposition, whereas にして seems to imply more of a direct causation. Moreover, in these AにしてB examples, A is claimed to be true, not just supposed to be true.
Don't know because of not hearing anything about it
I was just basing it off of what >>121658183 said. 寡聞にして makes sense to me (one /a/ related usage in that same vein is kiss-shot's description in monogatari, 鉄血にして熱血にして冷血の吸血鬼), but I am having trouble fitting that in to >>121656890. 25% is referring to the volume of the alcohol added (found through googling, http://www.shirasasa.com/group.htm), which didn't really help me in understanding how it fits together. Is １２０リットル the "end of a thought" here?
>Is １２０リットル the "end of a thought" here?
The more I think about it, the more I think this is where I misread. If you pause after it, it makes 100% sense because it says "120 liters (of alcohol, which was just mentioned) for 1 ton of rice [pause/period/etc] (in alcohol terms/speaking of alcohol/酒にして) is 25% or less"
Thank you for your help.
I just started a couple weeks/a month-ish ago and I have a few hundred kanji down, but I haven't even started learning grammar yet.
Which is more important early on if you just want good reading comprehension, having a large vocabulary or grammar?
Honestly, japanese grammar isn't anything that should scare you, and you can learn it all in a few months, what anybody really need in any language is a good vocabulary.
But a good vocabulary alone isn't worth shit, so learn around 500 words and start cracking the tae kim guide (and never stop with the vocabs).
I would say grammar.
You can shortcut on vocabulary by using dictionaries if you want to. You can't do the same for grammar; even DOJG is at best a tool to look up a distinct grammar point, not a few of these in the row. It's just, whereas the difficulty of looking up two unknown words is difficulty1+difficulty2, with grammar looking up two separate points can be up to difficulty1*difficulty2.
Mind you, in long term, vocabulary is harder to learn and is more of a problem and you don't want to slack off on it, but when you're beginning grammar pays off a lot more than vocabulary. You can kinda-sorta guess things even without vocabulary but it's really hard to do the same without decent understanding of grammar.
Also, Tae Kim (that is, basic grammar that accounts for 90% of everything) is easier than going through the entirety of Core/RTK, in my opinion. It's still pretty hard, but it's easier.
Okay, that seems fair, and about what I expected to hear.
I've actually been trying to read and more or less guess at what's being said based on the words that show up, though I'm sure my accuracy is bad due to words having doubling meanings and what not.
But thanks for the tips, I'll do vocab for a bit more then start on the grammar guides in the OP.
Start learning grammar and vocabulary. In my opinion beginners should study broadly and familiarize themselves with all aspects of the language before they decide to focus hard on single aspect, if they choose do so, be it kanji or vocab or listening comprehension or whatever
Guess I'll go start grammar then.
One of the things that way confused me was that anki told me する was a kanji, and then when I flipped the card it shows 為る. Like, I get that the sound is the same, but I have no idea why it's showing it like that.
Go on google and search for DJT's standard black-white Anki format. Then set it and make sure you install rikaisama + anki's addons to add words as cards with a tap of a button.
So after reading all the hate for RTK i went ahead and downloaded the book from the cornucopia, read the introduction, and went through a couple of the lessons.
What's all the controversy about? It turns out I was already naturally doing his method on my own. In fact, several of my personal mnemonics were exactly the same as Heisig's.
Not sure if all this work is necessary for reading VN's or whatever, but if production is important to you, I can't see why you wouldn't want to take at least take look at this, at least to see the order in which Heisig has organized the Kanji for memorization.
Frankly, I get the impression that most of you focus too much on structure instead of actually getting used to the language but I'm having no luck with this word so here I am. The author has a penchant for using foreign words but I can't make heads or tails on what this actually means.
Currently (i use the 2k/6k opt), but when I come across words that give me difficulty, I have to do a fair amount of searching for example sentences to help me see the word in context / consolidate it in memory. The 2k/6k/10k "further optimized" deck has a ton of example sentences for each word. This alone probably makes it way better
Read tae kim through to get an quick overview, also, VJG is very informative and concise. Do 1-2 vids per day after your reps
Acquire the DOJG books to use as a reference when reading.
rikaisama actually has entries for this. you could probably put it in jisho.org too.
as you can see, a big part of "getting used to the language" is learning vocabulary.
The consensus seems to be, it works but it's slow and not necessarily worth the time, unless you want to write kanji or you just naturally learn that way better. Also, many people don't get that it should be done fast and as a result shoot themselves in the feet by stretching it over the years, which kinda raises the question whether it does more good than bad.
I personally do it because I already began long before finding these threads and by this point is too far in to drop it, and also because I do learn easier that way.
Also, some people think that mnemonics are harder to learn than just kanji by themselves or fear that mnemonics will screw up with their brain. I don't really get these people, though.
But I think the biggest part is just the backlash, because before Heisig was considered a must in these threads, and now that it turned out RTK isn't a must, everybody overindulges in harping on it, which causes the opposite backlash, etc.
Also, biblical references in the stories, because some people just can't abandon their goddamn fedoras.
Yeah, it probably wasn't the best idea to just jump into the 10k deck, but I figured "Hey, words are words." And ran with that in mind.
And yeah, I'm reading through Tae Kim right now. It doesn't seem too hard.
I am personally fond of the idea of learning grammar while simultaneously building a vocabulary base of at least 1k ~ 2k words to start with. From there, you can diverge into different paths (whether you want to continue with Anki or not) and start beginner manga.
I mean, you could even start now - But not having at least 1k words under your belt is going to make things a major hassle.
Once you get there, just reference DOJG whenever you have a grammatical issue (weblio and other Japanese dictionaries online also help as supplementary material) and continue that as a habit.
When you have time, read and practice grammar. Additional time falls under anki.
Keep in mind the cornucopia has adult-level books and readers, with full parallel translations and translation notes, and audio readings.
This may prove more educational than kids' manga..
What I thought was even if I know the grammar I'll have no clue what I'm reading because I won't know any words. So that's why I started with vocab. I'm basically been living off jisho and anki to learn.
But the further I get into the cards to less sense things makes when things come up that have double meanings. I've more or less guessed that a word has a different sound if it's placed after a particle such as の or は. One example would be 家 is read as うち when before の but is read as いえ when it comes after の.
But again, that's just a guess based on the examples the cards give me.
>This may prove more educational than kids' manga..
You would be surprised anon, take into consideration that japanese kids learn kanji also through manga, and that something like dragon ball can really teach a decent amount of words.
Unless you're one of those high pressure jap studying addicts it's good to take breaks so you don't burn yourself out. Just like muscles, don't overtax your brain by forcing it and give it time to recover.
tfw when i have to constantly do anki and stuff or I forget stuff easily
Doesn't help. Reviews still pile if you do that - You're only limiting the amount of reviews per day but the total number of reviews does not change. There's probably some other option to turn it off that I'm not familiar with.
Particles don't determine which reading you use for the sentence - You have to look at the entire context of the sentence, whether additional kanji or hiragana is attached to the initial kanji you're looking at, etc to figure it out.
Why does DJT always talk about learning Japanese as if it's some exhausting and grueling task like climbing Mount Everest and you have to power your way through with either willpower or amphetamines?
I just don't get it. I guess that might apply in some very minuscule amount to the beginner period when there's not much you can do but grind reps and read about grammar, but it quickly gets to the point where most of your studying, if you can even call it studying, is just playing video games, watching TV, and reading books and manga.
I guess I could understand this if you've maybe been NEETing it up for the last decade and haven't done anything challenging at all during that time, but if you're used to doing any kind of work on a regular basis then learning Japanese is just fun and relaxing.
Speaking of Anki, I can only do 15 new cards per day, because I try to break down everything in the sample sentence, so there are extra words and some grammar points. I also look up the kanji in tangorin or Jisho.
I'd get 3 words and てくれる
I feel that I learn and recall the words better this way than when I went through the cards as fast as possible. But it's reaaaaaally slow.
No, its gonna get shorter, Happened to me. They don't pile that much, if you keep the review count at a reasonable number.
The reviews don't double or tripple unless you really did something, but rather go up slowly while you chip away large sections day by day.
Like I had thousand or so reviews, I didn't do all the reivew but several hundred and now its down to a low number.
Are you using the OP deck?
kick it up a notch, do 20,25.
Don't really really, try to learn them the first time you see them I guess. You're gonna be seeing them each day. Try to get the basic meaning.
btw at that stage with easy words, you're probably gonna be seeing them often so don't worry too much if you don't.
Watching a lot of motivational videos when I was starting out ended up having the strange side effect of making me think that learning Japanese was something that it wasn't. They helped when I was a beginner, but eventually it gets distorted because you're listening to videos created to motivate people who are training for triathlons and weight lifting competitions and in reality you're playing a video game in a different language. It's not the same thing at all and using those videos so often to pump me up caused me to begin associating the two and that made me think that Japanese was a lot harder than it actually was. It took me awhile to realize that I don't need to listen to motivational videos to study Japanese anymore than I need to listen to motivational videos to motivate me to jerk off or to play a video game in English. I don't need to "want to learn Japanese as badly as I want to breathe" when learning Japanese is usually just sitting on my ass and playing games, it's not that difficult.
Good point. I should probably try to do the studying outside the review sessions, but it's convenient when you are are reviewing, so that's how it came to be for me.
Thing is if I don't seriously look at the words, I found that I'd forget them at around 1-2 months interval or easily confuse them with similarly looking ones.
家 is strange because you have two readings for a single kanji. There are other kanji like that but one of the readings is more common.
Usually, you look at the readings based on whether there's hiragana or kanji attached to something.
新車 （しんしゃ）New Car
新しい （あたらしい） New (adjective)
相手 （あいて） Partner, companion
外相 （がいしょう）Foreign Minister
You look at the kanji around it to see what it means and how to read it obviously. い adjectives and verbs have some kind of hiragana ending to them (with kanji in the front). There can be of course, multiple readings for multiple words and you gotta learn to differentiate the readings for each one (相手 and 外相 has 相 attached with another kanji, but 相 can be read as しょう for 外相 but あい for 相手）
Also follow this.
>Usually, you look at the readings based on whether there's hiragana or kanji attached to something.
That makes it much more clear. Thanks for the explanation.
And I'm going to take that advice and go focus on reading Tae Kim now.
That means you aren't trying hard enough to memorize the words. It's obviously necessary to distinguish between kanji that looks similar or has similar meanings. How else did you think people found out differences between 始、初 .. 門、開、閉、問、間.. 度、席.. etc (not hard to distinguish between but you get the point).
1. To scare away beginners who lack motivation ("give up, you'll never learn Japanese")
2. Grinding Anki seems to be popular around here, so for someone who is into grinding, it's only natural they will come to associate the drudgery of flashcards with "Learning Japanese"
3. Sometimes people who have spent a lot of time and effort doing something like to brag about it
I agree that once you reach the point where reading/writing is your primary form of contact with Japanese (rather than studying), it does get a lot more fun.
I'd peg it to low frequency in encountering them. You say you need several thousand is necessary but nowhere near that many are needed to read manga so long as you have a dictionary handy for screwballs. Novels are more likely to use all the various synonyms since it's not just dialogue anymore but after a certain point you pick up new up words by context.
Please don't exacerbate the already profound autism in these threads. I'm certain there's someone in here that'll actually buy it.
like you, i see learning japanese as a recreational activity.
that doesn't mean it's easy though. it's like lifting. it's easy and fun at first. once you get halfway good, it gets hard. most people quit then, because they say "it's just recreation, why am i studying this much?"
Memorizing is easy; Anybody can do it with enough time. Searching for grammar-related solutions is slightly more difficult because it happens to be more subjective and can be conveyed differently based on where you are referencing (should almost always be from DOJG though). Slap 2 or 3 grammar points together that people don't understand and they turn into rep-doing druggies.
>I guess I could understand this if you've maybe been NEETing it up for the last decade and haven't done anything challenging at all during that time,
Let's be honest: a lot of people here likely do very little in the terms of challenging. We bitch about having to wait for subs if they aren't released at the exact point an episode has began to be animated.
Learning a language takes time. A long time when you have been conditioned for instantaneous consumption and reward with a few keystrokes. You could imagine that such an endeavour must be like a mountain for some of us.
I start to feel anxious having to wait more than five minutes for a thread to have new posts. Step into the shoes of a manchild and you may understand why we get so autistic about the whole process.
Hm? I only stated that I would personally suggest learning a thousand or two to make reading more convenient for beginners when they start out. Obviously the more reading, the better - But they shouldn't start when they have a base vocabulary of 50 words and are forced to search up each and every word they don't know.
Maybe if the manga was in text-form, but even then, it'd be a hassle.
Learning / improving your Japanese requires reading harder and harder material, and studying more and more vocab and grammar. Pretty sure these guys grinding Dies Irae are having a tough time of it.
Obviously if you pick up only silly video games, or reading easy manga, you won't have a hard time. But you won't be learning much either.
Think about it. If you decided to improve your English, you'd want to pick up the classics, or books on philosophy, etc. No one would characterize The Amazing Spider-man and Malcolm in the Middle as legitimate English practice beyond the basics.
Does anyone else have a lot of trouble practicing reading during those times when you don't feel particularly interested in reading anything?
It's easy with reps because that becomes a daily routine and it feels weird not to do it, but I've never managed to cultivate the same routine with reading and I've always depended on being interested in something and then using that interest to fuel my reading practice. Sometimes I'm just not interested in reading anything though, but that doesn't matter because I need to practice whether I'm interested or not.
I don't understand why I end up stalling for so long, sometimes just staring at the screen like a robot caught in a loop, even though I can easily finish my reps and other study routines like grammar review without experiencing this. It's just the fun stuff that makes me stall.
>No one would characterize The Amazing Spider-man and Malcolm in the Middle as legitimate English practice beyond the basics.
I would. It's a completely legitimate form of studying.
I get what you're trying to say. You mean "reach for the skies", and all that, and to not get compacent, and that once you start reading harder stuff it gets harder. But the thing is, reading easier stuff is still a completely legitimate form of study even for people who are Advanced. Sure, it doesn't get much payoff, but it's still exposure, and it will still help.
Though yes, you are right in that picking up only easy things is not efficient after some point. But it's still not detrimental and is, in fact, advantageous.
Its not really like its stuttering? Ill use 三 for example sounds like さん but with that little shit the sound changes into みっつ. Also on inspecting it more its a smaller version then the one I posted.
>Think about it. If you decided to improve your English, you'd want to pick up the classics, or books on philosophy, etc. No one would characterize The Amazing Spider-man and Malcolm in the Middle as legitimate English practice beyond the basics.
If I wanted to improve at the native level that I'm at, but if I was learning English as a second language then spider man and Malcolm in the Middle would probably be a lot better than reading books that use English that sounds very strange in comparison to modern day English or books that use very scholarly English that sounds unnatural outside of academic material.
If I was learning English as a second language and I spent months going through 19th century English classics then it would be really challenging but what I would be learning wouldn't have a lot of practical use. It's why we have to go to these older or obscure materials when we want to improve our English as natives. It's intentionally seeking out material that we never see in every day life because it's the only thing left that we're not regularly exposed to, so that would be the last thing on my priority list if I was learning English as a second language,
Well... robot in a loop seems like a good way to describe doing reps. Except that robot mode doesn't work with reading. Also, if you are not interested in the reading material, then there's not really much reward in it. With reps you get a nice printout telling you how successful and wonderful you are (or aren't.) With reading, you just read, nobody there to pat you on the back for a job well done. Just a thought.
a) Every one of my English courses dealt with grammar
b) My English course dealt with all kinds of grammar
a) Is the given solution b) is myinterpretation. I can't quite grasp whatI did wrong.Or does this depend on the context?
This is the difference between on'yomi and kun'yomi. You should really know about them before starting. On'yomi are generally used inside compound kanji, for instance 三人, which is pronounced さんにん. Kun'yomi are used when the kanji is alone, not paired up with any other kanji. There are exceptions, but that's the general rule.
>If I was learning English as a second language and I spent months going through 19th century English classics then it would be really challenging but what I would be learning wouldn't have a lot of practical use. It's why we have to go to these older or obscure materials when we want to improve our English as natives. It's intentionally seeking out material that we never see in every day life because it's the only thing left that we're not regularly exposed to, so that would be the last thing on my priority list if I was learning English as a second language,
English is my second language and i ended up reading joyce and crazy shit like the pooh perplex, which would make the average reader shit their pants.
After a certain point it happens naturally to challenge yourself over difficult stuff.
If you need reading to be more structured so that it's like reps then set daily goals for yourself like doing a certain number of chapters or pages. Record it each day in a log so that you know when you missed a day and it should take away the feeling of wandering aimlessly through an endless forest and make it feel more like the controlled and scheduled environment of anki.
I too have English as a second language, and I'm kinda scared of Joyce. I can hardly imagine how will I ever be able to read it.
Well, though I guess I don't have to read Finnegan's Wake to be able to say I read Joyce... He has other books too.
No one can really read Finnegan's Wake. Large parts of it are pure nonsense and it's like trying to understand the word salad speech of a schizophrenic.
Almost indistinguishable from Finnegan's Wake.
That is just a big jabberwocky anon, don't let all those legends about joyce scare you, he was a decent writer in my book, a portrait of the artist as a young man was pretty average.
The better joyce was pirandello, which was really an astounding writer.
That not pure nonsense at all. It's very prosaic but it isn't nonsense. Read more poetry or modern prose or something. There is a reason why it is appreciated by well read people.
>There is a reason why it is appreciated by well read people.
It's the literary equivalent of the same reason why people say that they can appreciate the garbage that Jackson Pollock shit onto the canvas.
― James Joyce, Finnegans Wake
Let's be honest though, the man was all about style rather than substance.
Finnegan's wake is an hilarious read, and it makes sense if you bend your normal perception of grammar to something that overflow the limits of it.
Super eliogabalo was much more interesting on the aspect of experimentation.
Anon the argument about pollock can be really thorny.
One can be an interesting experiment, it's art that live by itself, it can speak to the observer. Shit just got out of control, like everything in art after dadaism.
Is there any spooky and famous literature that's written in Japanese? Not horror stories or books about something spooky, but stories and legends that have made the book itself seem creepy and unnerving.
For example, the Codex Gigas. Extremely creepy because it's the work of a single insane monk writing an enormous nearly 9 inches thick codex where half of it is a flawless handwritten version of the entire Latin Bible with strange demonic illustrations thrown randomly throughout it and the other half is magical formulas, references to satanism and the occult, etc. The idea that one person spent his entire life writing all of this insane shit and that the writing is without a single flaw is just unsettling.
Does Japanese have anything like that?
>For example, the Codex Gigas. Extremely creepy because it's the work of a single insane monk writing an enormous nearly 9 inches thick codex where half of it is a flawless handwritten version of the entire Latin Bible with strange demonic illustrations thrown randomly throughout it and the other half is magical formulas, references to satanism and the occult, etc. The idea that one person spent his entire life writing all of this insane shit and that the writing is without a single flaw is just unsettling.
Isn't the book just a giant collection of biblical tests with a bunch of pictures depicting satan ?
Looks to me, that the monk just went bonkers after all that work as an amanuenses.
And it makes sense, that work was a living shit.
Prepare for the fright of your life
Is audio ever going to be fixed for rikaisama?
Shit's been broken for months now.
Is there a way to force a program to believe that it's always active? I'm trying to do some reading practice with 信長の野望・創造 and it works fairly well with KanjiTomo, but the only problem is that every time I press the KanjiTomo shortcut key to identify a word then it defocuses the window and the music cuts out until I click back into it..
It wasn't a big deal at first, but after over 5 hours of the music getting cut out every 10 seconds it's beginning to feel like torture and I'm desperate to find some way to keep the window focused permanently so the music won't cut out.
Why are weeaboos drawn to Japanese culture even though it seems to be the opposite of what you would expect them to be drawn to?
I've always been interested in this paradox. Most of your really die-hard weeaboos that go to the conventions and what not are also very socially liberal, it would be very odd to see someone at a convention that doesn't have beliefs that are firmly on the left, and yet Japan is one of the more conservative first world countries.
Why do they idolize a country that in many ways believes the exact opposite of what they believe? It seems like France or some other Western European country is what they're really looking for and it seems strange that they stumbled towards Japan of all places.
Why do people like you make pointless caricatures and sweeping generalisations?
I've always been interesting in this paradox. This is a board wherein you have to be at least 18 years of age to post yet most of the posters seem to be in their mid teens at the latest.
Escapism. They really do think their lives will be better over there by virtue of being different from their current ones. I can really sympathize with those who are lured in by the country life though.
>Why do people like you make pointless caricatures and sweeping generalisations?
I don't see how it's a sweeping generalization when, with the exception of the short 2009-2012 period, Japan has elected the same conservative, nationalist party over and over again since 1955.
Look mate, we get that you have shit taste and are probably about as creative as a piece of cardboard, but that doesn't detract from the work.
The ONLY reason an ignoramus like you feels the need to mock an artwork like that is due to the amount of money people have been willing to pay for them. Put the money aside and judge them for what it is.
It may be hard for an autist to appreciate things which aren't an analogue of a black and white depiction of reality.
What do you think of Kandinsky's later works?
>Let's be honest though, the man was all about style rather than substance.
Prose and poetry is often all about the style of expression.
>and it makes sense if you bend your normal perception of grammar to something that overflow the limits of it.
Or if you stop trying to force the English language into some confined construct. Creative emotionally driven works aren't meant to be structured report or essays.
Shakespeare broke "rules" and conventions left right and centre to create many of his images.
>I don't see how it's a sweeping generalization when
There is more to a nation than the cabinet in power. Fuck off back to /pol/ if you want to take a retarded generalized view of the Japanese society.
I just learned that this is a combination of various sound effects for thunder in multiple languages:
-gaireachtach (garokhtokh) (gael) - boisterous + gargarahat, karak (Hindustani) - thunder + Joyce's note, Scribbledehobble, Circe: 'clap, Finnegan'.
-"Joyce asked me 'Aren't there 4 terrible things in Japan, "Kaminari" being one of them?' I counted for him: 'Jishin (earthquake), kaminari (thunder), kaji (fire), oyaji (paternity).' & he laughed." (Takaoki Katta, "15 juillet, 1926.")
-ukkonen (Finnish) - thunder
-brontę (gr) - thunder
-Donner (ger) = tonnerre (French) - thunder
-tuono (Italian) - thunder
-thunner (Dialect) - thunder
-trovăo (Portuguese) - thunder
-Varuna - Hindu creator and storm god
-åska (Swedish) - thunder.
-torden (Danish) - thunder
-tornach (tornokh) (gael) - thunder
It's all just jumbled up together for some sort of...pun? It's an interesting decipher.
>the pooh perplex
You list as an example of books that would make average reader shit their pants...an adorable little book parodying literary theories using Winnie the Pooh characters? I mean, not that it's not hard or anything, but the difference between Joyce's and Crews' readability is quite spread apart. Why not include things like Tristram Shandy or one of those post-modernist wankers like Baudrillard or Badiou?
So guys, I'm a 21 year-old student who's applied for a year's worth of studies in Japan in gaijin classes. At the menu? Japanese language, japanese history, japanese society, and japanese way of life.
I've already done 3 years of school studies but Japanese is my third foreign language and I'm actually getting pretty lazy. I must know a total of 40 kanji, I think, no more, and the fundamentals when it comes to oral expression. Kanas fully mastered though.
If I'm selected for those 10 months of studies abroad, I'm going to need quite an boost. I've started using some books and am currently learning more kanji... whenever I can muster the will to do it (it's not that I don't want actually, I just lack motivation recently) but I was wondering what exactly I'm supposed to know.
I know I must have the necessary vocabulary in order to ask my way around, read some signs and make a bit of a conversation with the glorious people there but can anyone give me some more precise advices?
If you're lying to me I'm going to murder a litter of puppies.
I've spent fucking hours trying to fix this shit.
I don't get it, when I'm learning English (or Arabic), the first few lessons are all about common words like 'table' or 'house' or 'over there' or 'infidels die'. Why do Japanese studies seem to focus more on the Japanese culture itself and not just the language?
If someone could translate the few lines in this I would be eternally grateful. ありがとう
It's just that the former teachers didn't really bother to teach us kanji. They gave us the sheets but they never really told us to do them and, like idiots, we never did them.
Looking back, I should have, and I'm regretting it already.
Reading it right away.
Schools also tend to have a fucking tendency to force writing on you - When recognizing is all that's necessary in this age. 20 fucking kanji a week for around 500 total - It wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have other courses up my ass too. /blog post
Japanese elitism man. From my experience, it was all about the polite greetings in the beginning.
Sounds like a waste of a year that'll out you as a massive weeb to any future employers. What the hell were you doing for 3 years, anyway?
20 kanji a week? Ouch. My sister keeps talking about how she's going to do a Japanese course, I laugh every time.
>20 fucking kanji a week
How many hours of class are in a week? How do you fill multiple hours with just 20 kanji? You play around with its different conjugations and particle combinations and shit?
Classes are super retarded. It takes me about an hour to learn 20 kanji to a state of basic recognition and a couple of readings, which is all you need for reading. The rest of the meanings and readings come with practice, you just need a base so it doesn't look like gibberish.
If they hammer students with kanji right away they lose motivation and drop out of courses. This means less money and possibly no classes at all if too many students drop out. This is the main reason why they take months to teach kana and waste time on culture.
The other reason is when you have a non-native teacher and he doesn't know enough to teach beyond some point, he stalls to buy time.
How many times do you have to write them down for it to be a hassle? I write each one once or twice to get a feel for it and where each radical goes.
4 hours of class a week sounds really low.
Stroke order is something I don't give a fuck about, but I still value writing them down because it helps me remember them.
Sorry for the stupidity. I'll respond accordingly now.
The problem isn't recognition, it's the fact that my professor makes me write it down. Quizzes usually aren't worth much so I don't bother. Anki makes recognition and long-term retention nice and easy though. It's second year Japanese if you were interested.
The learning structure is awful and I've only just recently discovered DOJG (thank god for it). Then you have 作文 and other miscellaneous assignments and tasks along the way.
4 hours of class a week. We just practice a bit of kanji in class. There's also readings and grammar that we learn in class, followed by oral practice and what-not.
Sorry I misread your post for a minute there. It takes much longer to be able to write 20 kanji (takes me on average from 2-4 hours). I usually forget how to write them but then load them on Anki so I retain them over a long period of time.
Ah, fair enough. I guess if they're voluntary courses that you can drop out of, they sort of have to ease it in a bit.
I can't drop out of my Arabic or English courses at my madrassa, so I never thought it like that.
I got a question, Im not too far into learning but When you guys read speak or hear
japanese do you process it in your first language? ex:english
Ive asked a few bi lingual friends this and they say they do but they don't at the same time. So far im just translating it into english in my head.
Is it okay if I post some kanji sheets? The ones in sets of 20 that I learn weekly - If you guys are interested.
For my case, it is second year Japanese. First year introduces the kata system and about 100 kanji. Third year goes up to around 900 written kanji. Luckily, my professor is native but the grammar content they work around with is not clear and explained as well as it is in TK and DOJG.
Takes me much longer. A lot of times I need to rewrite previous kanji because I always forget about how to write certain (most) kanji.
When you've read 朝食を食べた enough times you're just going to look at it and know what it means, without having to translate to english or whatever. Same goes for everything else.
>It takes much longer to be able to write 20 kanji (takes me on average from 2-4 hours).
I'm assuming your class is following jouyou, which means you're often introduced to new kanji that look nothing like old ones. It's better for reading material, but only if you're learning as slowly as a 5 year old does. When they're grouped logically, you're pretty much just learning new radicals and combining them with radicals you already know to make new kanji.
No, that's incredibly slow. You translate until you understand the language enough, then you just do your thinking in Japanese.
I believe we follow Jouyou - I haven't personally checked. And yeah ... I believe we briefly went over radicals in first year.
It was the opposite for me. My teacher never bothered with kanji but drilled the grammar quite efficiently. It helped that they were native Japanese but also fluent in my own language, so the explanations and nuances came across.
>not looking up the words as you read thejm
That such bullshit, learning them from a list sucks compared to learning them from an actual example, it's harder to forget it that way.
Same. I don't understand why it works for some and not others across OS'. It's even more frustrating since the only "fix" recommends installing MXPlayer which is a goddamn virus.
>That means kanjidamage or heisig.
Just having an idea of the radicals, and being able to make out radicals in Kanji is enough, no need to do Kanjidamage or RTK for that.
There's a kanji radical deck on ankiweb.
Translation studies in 3 foreign languages, as well as economics, law, communication.
Anyway, this year might actually be the best thing for me. I find it hard to focus on one particular thing while doing several next to it.
Spending a year studying abroad can only be a good thing IMO and employers don't necessarily identify "spending time in Japan" as "being a fucking weeb", just like going to study in 'murrica doesn't make you a lazy fatass.
Youre not supposed to jump in at the hardest level imaginable though. I would never pick something that natives are having issues with.
But everybody listen, were all.going to have a good day today! You just gotta believe!
Studying in America means dumb rich kid. Studying in Europe means "interesting guy who you should hire", studying in China means "too smart for his own good", and studying in Japan means disgusting weeb.
You'll probably learn a lot of the language as long as you stay off 4chan and make a real effort to experience the country. The more English stuff you read, the harder it'll be.
It was a joke about his grammar.
It's frustrating for beginning learners how in casual speech of any language you can mangle spelling and grammar and any other rules, but just enough to make it understandable. Languages are so flexible in how legible it can be, it's annoying.
>dumb rich kid
>interesting guy you should hire
None of those have anything to do with the studies themselves and have no weigh on whether you'll be employed or not. And the China one (though I disagree with it) isn't particularly meliorative, you'd say.
Besides, my language abilities (French, English, German, Japanese) are a quartet that is actually pretty well-recognized on an international scale. You could say I'd be better off with Chinese or Spanish instead of Japanese but it's also sought after as well.
I'm not even sure I grasp what an adverb is. It's like an adjective, but for verbs?
>"An adverb is a word that modifies a verb, adjective, other adverb, determiner, noun phrase, clause, or sentence"
Don't worry too much about it, it's a catch all for modifiers.
>"He undoubtedly did it (undoubtedly modifies the verb phrase did it, indicating certainty)"
>"You are quite right (the adverb quite modifies the adjective right)"
Just google it, nigga. Age of Information.