>>121669424 Monogatari is rather well made despite people whining about "slideshows", the staff at SHAFT understands that you don't need flashy animation to engage an audience as long as the layouts are done well and it shows itself to be true, people are engaged by Bakemonogatari and hence it is popular.
>>121669765 That requires explaining? Do you honestly believe something is "well-made" and "competent" as long as it includes "naked girls teasing you?" MOnogatari had potential but it ultimately suffers because the real meat that matters is hidden behind constant TnA fanservice. Is it good for a fap? Sure. Is it a well-made, competent anime series? No. It wasted its potential to tell a great story about people developing as characters in order to focus on TnA. If that's what you like, go right ahead. I can fap to that too. But I don't think it constitutes a well-made series to detract from real opportunities to tell a story just to provide a bunch of blatant fanservice. The worst thing about this to me if how a lot of the hardcore fans will even try to argue that the fanservice is an integral part of the storytelling that moves the plot along. At times sexuality is important, sure, but blatant fansertvicey scenes are not that. It's one thing to explore the changing relationship dynamics after two people have had sex. It's another thing to have a brother shoving a toothbrush in his sister's face for a couple minutes to pretend its some sort of deep exploration of their relationship. It's cheap fanservice that detracted from the storytelling, as was MOST of the fanservicey stuff in the show, though admittedly not all.
>>121669833 I can understand why some people would consider Monogatari to be bad/boring. It took me 3 tries to actually start watching it properly. Dropped Bakemonogatari twice because I didn't find it interesting to go past a couple of episodes. But then on the third try, something "clicked", and I began to want to know more about the characters and see how they would interact each other and develop.
It's a highly character centric series. If the characters don't interest you, chances are you won't like it, and you'll wonder why people sing high praises of it.
>>121669662 wow the monoshitari defense force is out at full strength today! i dropped teh show 3 eps in because it was just shitty garbage fanservice otaku pandering bullshit. most overrated show ever, and one of the worst to.
>>121669850 Nah nothing like that. I'm actually speaking from experience. My first shows ever were, if you don't consider pokemon and digimon:
Elfen lied Death Note Cowboy beebop Haruhi
And how do you think I found out about them before I knew anything about anime? It's from those countless shitty youtube amv people made with evanescence music in the background. All of those shows were dubbed and pretty popular even with normies. And now I have the nostalgia factor for them because it got me into other anime. I don't even remember much about them.
>>121669998 I talked about that storytelling. I obviously saw it. I'm saying all the blatant fanservice detracted from it. You think it required "tunnel vision" to see all the fanservice in monogatari? Seriously? You'd need to be blind to not see it everywhere, in every episode, all the time.
>>121669885 >it ultimately suffers because the real meat that matters is hidden behind constant TnA fanservice >detract from real opportunities to tell a story just to provide a bunch of blatant fanservice
So you admit you are just too retarded to be able to pay attention if there are tits on the screen? That seems like a personal problem.
Monogatari had a great story and characters and having TnA did not detract from it at all. Why should it? There is no reason it had to unless you are a giant prude and shut your eyes every time someone got even half naked.
>>121670111 >stupid puns Which is something I didn't even mention that also makes it fall flat. I also didn't even get into what passes for animation from SHAFT and how that also detracted from opportunities to make something that was great. People aren't drawn to Monogatari because of its compelling writing or quality animation, things that make a "well-made competent anime series;" They're there for the PLOT. See: everything thread about the series, ever.
>>121670197 >People aren't drawn to Monogatari because of its compelling writing or quality animation, things that make a "well-made competent anime series;" They're there for the PLOT. Speak for yourself. Just because you can't pay attention to the rest of the show when you see some boobs, doesn't mean everyone else is like that.
>>121670256 Only, there actually are a lot of discussions about the series, and most of it doesn't involve fanservice. You'd know it if you had actually taken the time to read through Monogatari threads.
>>121670197 The only thing I agree with you about is the writing. Monogatari is a one trick pony in that respect. The characters are trying so hard to be witty and wordy that they are pratically masturbatory devices for the authors ego rather than real people involved in a drama.
You seem to think that shaft invented those. The show is like an illustration to a book. There isn't a lot of action going on because many of the LN is dialog, which is why you get random scenes all the time and the only thing they can really animate is the PLOT. The LN and Japanese language is very heavy on spelling and pronunciation puns. I admit I can't fully understand them because I don't know the language at all, but I know this much about it at least. Saying something is retarded because you don't understand it is really narrow minded.
>>121670344 >There isn't a lot of action going on because many of the LN is dialog, which is why you get random scenes all the time and the only thing they can really animate is the PLOT.
And here we get to the real root of the problem. Had this series been written for the purposes of something other than an LN, there wouldn't have been so much sex shoved in because fuck you, it's an LN, that's why.
>>121670410 but how come you're you so opposed to the sexuality of it all? just because the promiscuity is so visually detailed and so extensively thought out doesn't mean the show depends on it to engage viewers. if you think lewdity is why people watch monogatari then you're a serious faggot
>>121670445 Where did I ever say there was anything wrong with sex? My initial posts even talked about how it was used effectively in some instances. My argument is that the series wastes opportunities to be great in order to be sexy instead. I don't think that makes a well-made, competent anime series. I think it shows a weakness in the creators, a greater desire to sell the product to as many people as they can with the fanservice, than to tell a great story regardless of how wlel it will sell. But really, the problem here is that it's an LN adaptation. I have never seen a single one of those that I would call well-made and competent, because LNs pretty much as a rule, are not well made or competent. They're quick, cheap cash-grabs aimed at a shallow demographic. We're talking about a medium were entries commonly have plot summaries for titles because the market is so saturated with similar crap that their shallow audience can't be bothered to flip the book over to read a summary on the back cover. Gotta hook them with the title and the sexy art on the cover or you're done.
>>121670650 it's just the way i am. i despise action movies because it just feels like i'm wasting my time. oh, an explosion, oh a beautiful girl. and i'm supposed to go "yah!" and root for the hero etc. (i feel the same way about cowboy bebop. I'm supposed to go "oh, these characters are so cool! this show is so stylish!"). don't mean to step on anyone's toes really.
and for the record, i would have thought that society promotes "pure fun" stuff, not discourages it.
>>121669717 Nobody ever said monogatari was a well-made, competent anime series because it has fanservice. It's a well-made, competent anime series that has some of the best way of doing fanservice I've ever seen.
>>121670685 This is kinda true about the pretty girls attracting buyers. I've recently started playing a little game by noticing what kind off loops and bullshit they will go through to put the main girls into swimsuits or sneak in even if the show takes place somewhere totally unrelated.
>>121670707 >>121670720 Alot of people don't find Naruto enjoyable. Alot of people don't find the Haruhi anime enjoyable. Alot of people don't find the Madoka anime enjoyable. What is that telling us? Nothing.
What somebody likes and what not is completly subjective. >>121670774 Here the end was there from the beginning I guess then. This is worse then Monkey-fags shitting up a thread.
>>121670812 Hey man, I'm not the one who said "I enjoy watching it anon. So do lots of other people. That's why it's good." That's probably the stupidest thing I've read on /a/ yet today and I was watching Kronie's shitposting spree a couple hours ago.
Out of true curiosity, I've only watched the monogatari animes, but were the novels actually full of PLOT like we got in the anime version?
Quite frankly, even after watching all the anime I am still not sure what the author is trying to convey. Whether thats because SHAFT did a terrible job, I am too retarded to see it, or a mixture of both I really don't know.
It just seems that absolutely nothing happens. 1st episode we find out one of the girls has an issue, 12 episodes later Araragi pulls a, "oh just do this."
>>121670838 Why do you guys come here and start shitting up these threads instead of watching some serious film or somewhat. I mean I don't bash everybody who listens to some Drumstep crap and I still don't find that enjoyable.
>>121670812 No you are missing the point completely. The poster I responded to says "I like monogatari and a lot of other people do thus monogatari is good" I am pointing out that his point is retarded because you could make the argument Naruto is good following the exact same reasoning he used. It is showing how absurd his argument is thus discrediting it. Demonstrating that the number of people who like something has little connection to it being good or not.
>>121670809 Actually yes. I would love a monogatari thread with no fan-service at all. It would be lovely. I guess people need to post the same webm 10 times over which makes the random faggot think that there is only fan-service and nothing else.
>>121670864 I was referring to why sexuality is good anon. Being enjoyed by people because it connects with us like nothing else is why it's good to use. People have been using sexuality in art for a very long fucking time.
Why it's bad is something you faggots have yet to answer.
>>121670740 See that's the thing. There seems to be a thin line between pure fun and dumb fun for retards. There are a lot of Hollywood cashgrab action films that are pure shit. But then you get stuff like The Raid, John wick, Dredd and the like. Both basically do the same thing but somehow are different. It's like the difference between 80's parodies and shit like "from the writers of scary movie". I'm ok with pure fun animes because they can really make the animation and the theme work in their favor. But if they were to make a live action show of the same thing I would cringe extremely hard. I don't know how to really explain it well but all I'm saying is that pure fun isn't bad and you shouldn't worry about enjoying something.
>>121670969 Your post nor the one you were responding to say anything about sexuality. It is not evident from context nor written in your post. You need to explain yourself properly rather than blaming this on other people. If you intend to make a point it is your responsibility to make it clear for other people what you are trying to communicate otherwise why should you even bother to make it?
>>121670969 And I won;t explain that because I don't hold that belief? Is English not your native tongue? I've stated this pretty clearly multiple times now. You're either intentionally misrepresenting my arguments because you can't argue against the ones I've actually made, or you're just plain stupid.
I enjoyed the banter between Araragi and most of the girls. Not sure about the series as a whole. Half the time I just wanted them to move onto the next scene, and the good scenes that I enjoyed never seemed to last long enough. Quite frankly I believe Snake is worthless but that's just my opinion man.
Not quite sure how I feel on the sisters. I can't tell if they actually love their brother more than a brother or if that's just SHAFTs pandering to their fanbase. Maybe a little of a) and b).
I do enjoy Araragi's banter with Shinobu and Crab though. Those are personally some of my favorite scenes.
>>121671089 Nobody has been talking about that since a fucking age ago. Even >"It's good" is even less of one. was referring to an argument made before that post. To this one >It's good, and competent at the very least at what it tries to do. You have been arguing with yourself over a point nobody else has paid any attention to. I think you have the reading issues here if you think that was the argument we were having until now.
>>121671102 snake is worthless. as a person anyway. if you only hate her for her personality and not for shortcomings in how she was written then she's fine as a character. and it just sounds like the show developed at a pace different from what you were expecting.
>>121670926 Why do you care about the random faggots though? If you ignore them they will fuck off and you'll get to talk in your thread with people who want to discuss real point about the gataris and others who want the PLOT.
>>121670979 Fucking hell did I ever mention you in that post? It's a generalization, a weak on I do admit but just look for yourself, nearly all threads talk only about fan-service even though it was not the initial point. Don't take it so personally.
>>121670963 It did, you see it's often in the "AOTS threads". Like Lain, people love Lain but there is nothing to discuss anymore.
>>121671089 What is the spoiler key-bind? Must be annoying typing that shit every-time no?
>>121671193 No we aren't arguing over that at all, we are arguing about >I enjoy watching it anon. So do lots of other people. That's why it's good. and if that is a valid point or not, which it is not.
>>121671146 >There are literally none. You are a faggot. >"Nudity and sexuality is bad" is not an argument, it's autism. Reply with >"It's good" is even less of one.
Now you are pretending to be talking about something else which is not even fucking mentioned in any of the posts. >It's good, and competent at the very least at what it tries to do. You didn't even fucking mention this post or how you even disagree.
Can you backpedal any faster? And you still fail to provide any argument to why Monogatari is bad.
>>121671193 Show me where anon said "nudity is bad and ruining the show" and that it isn't just you misrepresenting the arguments that are actually being made. Because I'm not seeing it in any of the posts you're quoting there.
>>121671228 How is enjoying something not an argument for something being good? I can't explain why I enjoy looking at sexually charged imagery. It something I connect to because I have a libido. You haven't given one shred of evidence or an argument as to why it's bad.
>>121671322 I enjoy something and lots of other people enjoy something is not a valid argument for it being good. I already demonstrated that. I enjoy Naruto and so do lots of other people. Does that mean Naruto is also good?
>>121669885 >it ultimately suffers because the real meat that matters is hidden behind constant TnA fanservice >It wasted its potential to tell a great story about people developing as characters in order to focus on TnA >detract from real opportunities to tell a story just to provide a bunch of blatant fanservice
Right there. The only argument in the entire post is "TnA is distracting me from the story and character development so I will pretend there is none".
>>121671322 You're using subjective terms like good and bad, but the topic of the thread was "well-made, competent anime series." I'd argue that these are more objective statements that would take certain aspects of a show and its production into account, not just wether or not you enjoyed it. Because, as I pointed out before, Naruto is enjoyed by many people around the world and I don't think you're going to argue that it's well-made and competent. It's filled with QUALITY and most of the characters are stupid one-dimensional pieces of shit. Lret's not even get into the horrid writing.
I think you can make arguments about Monogatari being well-made and competent, but I haven't seen you make any. On the flip-side, I have been making a bunch of arguments about how I feel the focus on fanservice detracts from those things that had the potential to make the Monogatari series great. You've chosen to either intentionally misrepresent these arguments as "nudity is bad" which is leading us nowhere fast. I think I already hit the nail on the head when it comes to Monogatari's major flaw though: it's an LN. If it had been written as a manga, or an original anime series, it would not have suffered from the coinstraints of the medium and would've had more room to tell its story in ways that were competent, compelling, thought provoking. As opposed to ways that are boner-enducing. I've never once said there is anything wrong with sexuality. Monogatari is hot, sure. But it's only competent for an adaptation of an LN, not in general, and I definitely don't think what passes for animation from SHAFT makes it well-made either.
>>121671309 True but the Lain threads are mostly composed of f/a/uxx, bearsuit/slowpoke and the OP lyrics. I'm not blaming since, like previously said everything has been said but it's hardly discussing the anime itself. Coil is pretty complex, if they were a thread now I could not help since I do not remember well enough, I can't believe I'm the only one in that case too.
>>121671322 Because in Aspergerstan simply liking something isn't even a valid reason to like it, much less think it's good. At the very least one must have a bulleted list of reasons why the show is better than all other shows. Also it is imperative that the show not be popular. Having more than 100 fans is conclusive evidence that the show is not good.
>>121671489 I haven't fucking watched Naruto, I can't fucking tell you why it's good or shit.
Comparing an entire work to a facet of human emotion makes you a gigantic faggot though. You can discuss characters, plot and themes of Naruto.
Why is the human body beautiful? Because we are biologically hardwired to see it that way. You can try bringing in math and the golden ration if you want but you not being able to understand the appeal in sexuality makes you fucking autistic.
If you want to judge stuff objectively you first need to give criteria by which to judge them. Just saying the "what would you consider" invites stating opinions which is in no way a meter for quality.
>>121671570 >I haven't fucking watched Naruto, I can't fucking tell you why it's good or shit.
You don't need to watch the show. I am pointing out the flaw in the logic of your argument. There are many popular things that you would consider bad and this directly contradicts your line of reasoning whereby "I like it and lots of other people like it therefore its good". Justin Beiber for example.
>>121671611 He said that because it's an adaptation of an LN with lot's of dialog the only thing they can really focus on other than the dialog is the fanservice. Which is exactly what you have in the show. If shaft made an original series about supernatural stuff they might not focus on the fan service so much. He's basically saying they didn't really have any choice in the matter because of how the LN was written. You need to understand the fanservice is in the LNs too. It'snot invented.
>>121671611 >You haven't explained how the fanservice detracts from anything.
I thought that was pretty obvious. You've watched Monogatari I presume? There is a metric ton of blatant fanservice everywhere, in every episode. There is a great story in there too, mostly about characters developing, a story with some real potential. But this takes a backseat to the fanservice. The fanservicey type things are rarely used in such a way that they actuually move the plot, the character development forward, and in these cases I think it's great that they do that. But the majority of the series is not character development and plot. The majority of the series is PLOT. That's what I mean. The focus on fanservice detracts from, takes away from, reduces, the focus on character development, on plot. It does this to a very large degree even. Again, I thought this was obvious.
>>121671683 No it is just you that is retarded here. The examples themselves are irrelevant. They are being used to highlight how your logic is fallacious. It does not follow at all that many people having opinion x about thing y means opinion x is the case.
>>121671746 First of all you are grossly over exaggerating the amount of fanservice in the first place. It is not in every episode and when it is only for one or two scenes.
Second how does story telling or character development take a backseat to fanservice? Why can't you have both? Monogatari manages to have were well written and developed characters and now an actual plot while still having lots of ero. Why it can't have both is not something you've ever explained.
>>121671767 How the fuck are you missing this point? You like it, so it's good right? Well I like fucking you in the ass, so fucking you in the ass is good. The problem here is with your "i like thing so thing is good" reasoning.
>>121671752 Are you fucking serious? You just asked me the equivalent of why I like the color blue. There is no fucking way to explain why I enjoy sexual imagery. Why do you like certain flavours? Comparing that to a a finished creative work that tries to write characters and themes and ideas, things you can break down and analyze, is retarded.
>>121671921 The ability to explain why something is good is in no way related to the truth of the matter. The argument that "a lot of other people like it and i like it therefore it is good" is not logically sound regardless of what you apply it to all it can ever show is that the opinion is popular not that it is right.
>>121672096 Because >>121669555 and >>121670372 was exposition >>121669744 was character development of snake and her relationship with araragi >>121670539 was exposition >>121670045 was the only one not really doing either but it was pleasing to watch. Why is having a few scenes here and there that are just nice to watch bad? Not every second has to be driving the plot or character development. This is called pacing.
>>121672191 Good or bad isn't an argument I'm having. It's not well-made or competent because the fanservice is forced in all the time often at the behest of character development and plot. It's nicely blended on one or two occasions and in every other instance is just there because it can be, to make it sexy, to make it sell. It's an LN adaptation, so what do you expect really, right? So sure, it's competent, for an LN adaptation. It's not competent in general though. And it sure as shit isn't well made.
>>121672191 If you're going to call blatant fanservice just for the sake of being fanservicey exposition, I'm done. You clearly weren't actually interested in a debate about these issues from the beginning with the way you kept intentionally misrepresenting my arguments, but now you're just fucking trolling.
>>121672313 >talking about snake after koi, Araragi's insitance of doing everything himself and introducing his slide into full vampirism >not exposition
>if there are tits on the screen nothing of value must have been discussed.
>>121672352 >blatant fanservice What the fuck is this? Do you mean it was unnecessary? Well shit, moving pictures are unnecessary, the whole thing could have been a black screen with a voiceover. I don't understand how making it visually appealing is somehow bad.
There is no fucking issue other than your inability to appreciate all spectrums of human emotions including libido because you are a stuck up autist.
>>121672527 >There is no fucking issue other than your inability to appreciate all spectrums of human emotions including libido because you are a stuck up autist. Explain to me how random screens of color in between scenes and shots of a character's head that fills out only the bottom left of the screen is "appreciating spectrums of human emotions" because that to me is just fucking bullshit. Shaft can get away with it literally because the fans eat that shit up. You know what else has great exposition but doesn't need breaks in animation to convey it to the watchers? Haruhi. Negima used that shitty style of animation and look where it got them. Nowhere. You Monogatarishits have to stop defending this cancerous animation style.
>>121674803 >it's just Koizumi talking At least it has lots more going on that being Exposition: The Anime, using fanservice to distract you from how boring the pretentious infodumps are. And what's more, you teenage shits justify it as tasteful. Fucking reddit. Fanservice serves only 1 thing and 1 thing only: to titillate the viewer. Doing it during exposition is not a new thing, ecchi shows in the past have been doing it for WAY longer but you niggers don't know because you eat anything MAL says is good.
>Also you were specifically talking about fanservice, not the rest of the art direction. That anon wasn't me. I'm talking technical camera angles. Do that in movies and you'd be labeled a reject. Watch ANY Japanese drama and you'd see the same camera angles which look so awkward in real. I CRINGE at the camera angles Bake uses. That's how shitty it is. Also, the only reason Shinbo is successful is because you fans eat all of it up since you know no better. As shitty Kyoani and Production IG anime are they know camera angles. Not the repetitive "artistic" bullshit Shinbo craps out. >start of exposition scene >random slide of random color >surprised face on character >random body part zoom in on the other character >another random slide of random color >same person but different camera angle >rinse and repeat >multiple variations include moving backgrounds, Shaft's trademark titled heads, and boobs
>>121670685 >Know nothing of Kodansha LN and Bunko releases >call every each of them as the same garbage as other LN Anon, as far as I am concern, Kodansha and Dengeki novel shits are quality weabs and otaku are searching right now.
>sexy covers to attract readers sole proof that you have never seen Monogatari, or other Nisio books at all. They are boxes without much exposition, and the back "summary" didn't really help much.
>>121675389 >putting words in my mouth All I did was talk about technical direction since you brought up Shinbo first saying I'm wrong because I said he was a bad director. Don't feel bad about not being able to rebut.
>Also using well choreographed ero scenes during exposition is worse than just having a guy just talk about it? How about making it better? Instead of only using either fanservice or muh symbolism as filler material during exposition scenes, how about showing exactly what the characters are talking about, either in a memory or in a flashback? I'm not saying this because Shinbo is wrong in this regard, I'm saying this because it promotes laziness in animation. It's generally easier to animate naked women with no detail (or even static characters doing one single action with moving backgrounds, or just plain colored slides with some flowery designs on them) on them the way Shaft does it. But "intellectuals" like this kind of style because these people feel that fanservice is "justified" when these kinds of things happen. Pretentious little fuckers incarnate.
>monogatari just does it really well It does well because you niggers don't raise your voices to it or don't know better. I already mentioned this in my previous post.
>>121675623 Because it does do flashbacks when it needs to. It also shows what they are talking about just as much, >>121670539 for example. I don't think taking the naked part out will make it any better either. You're the one who seems to irrationally hate it for no reason.
If you are so certain other shows do it better why don't you link an example. Because right now this is your example. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIxVEntzj-Q
>>121675816 >I don't think taking the naked part out will make it any better either. What? I didn't say to take out all the fanservice. It works in that scene because the whole scene is about it. Also, great job shoehorning on the fanservice argument when my post wasn't about it.
Haruhi's deduction scene with the real world sepia tone is far better than this bs. First fucking scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grPp0x18QtI It doesn't show how Senjougahara underwent all that she claimed, just some still shots of muh symbolism. Not even a hint of HOW she met the crab, just her naked body and translucent crab outline. They even lampshade it with the line, "Oh there is no need for you to understand." Yes they showed the whole weight thing with the bath scale, but it's just functional fanservice so I give them less credit than I would've.
>>121676264 Why would it show that? It's told from the point of Araragi, you're seeing what he sees and what he imagines when she explains it. Meanwhile the direction of the shots is interesting, it's not even muh symbolism. Is that something you through out every time a shot isn't done from the default angle in the default lighting?
Meanwhile in Haruhi it's two guys talking on a boat and they don't even try to keep it interesting.
>>121676646 >Why would it show that? Oh I don't know. Visual information? Industry standards? I'd understand like Araragi's ahoge symbolizing an erection but fucking translucent crabs aren't enough. The crab stripped her of all her weight. That's a very important part of that exposition. Why isn't it expounded upon? If it's Araragi's point of view, is his imagination that poor? When obviously it's not given all the other imaginations he's done in the anime?
>Meanwhile the direction of the shots is interesting It's poorly done. The only time you do overhead shots is when you do crowd shots or something like a sports replay. Here it's done pointlessly. Just to be hipster I guess just like its fanbase. >Is that something you through out every time a shot isn't done from the default angle in the default lighting? There are other ways to make a shot interesting than to reuse the same weird angles again and again. It's why Michael Bay is a shit director even though he knows how to make it explode. The only thing he knows how to use is dynamic shots, even when it's not needed. Hmm, sounds familiar.
>Meanwhile in Haruhi it's two guys talking on a boat and they don't even try to keep it interesting. It's justified in Haruhi because none of those niggers have experienced a closed circle murder before and that's what the two homos were talking about. In the scene I offered, it's a personal anecdote from Crab which you're not even shown because >muh budget >muh artistry >you wouldn't understand
>>121676704 Not disgusting just annoying. Fujoshis are the real disgusting people. Hypocritical to a fault.
>>121677151 >boring ass dialogue from Koizumi without even any camerawork to keep us interested >it's okay because we need exposition and the director is too retarded to present it to us in an interesting way
>actually engaging camera work during crabs exposition >this is bad because there are too many cuts while I'm trying to read the subs and can't keep up
There is nothing to understand. There is no hidden super symbolic reason for the overhead shot. Or her weight and height cards, or the long shot of the hallway, or the closeup of her face.
Monogatari plays with all the elements of design like color, balance repetition of elements, contrast and dominance. It's just done to keep it interesting. Faggots like you just whine as soon as any shot is not 100% representational and even a little abstract because you are retarded. This is not deep, this is just you being a faggot.
Meanwhile you have two faggots talking on a boat and it just switches from headshot to headshot and this is so much better because that way poor anon does not get overwhelmed.
This is just your shit taste showing, nothing more.
>>121677573 >nitpicking scenes >sees horrid angle work as interesting >deflections galore It's not a question of being artistic or symbolical, which I wasn't even claiming it to be but whatever helps you seep at night I guess, it's a question of being necessary.
>color, balance repetition of elements, contrast and dominance Nigga what? These justifications are reaching like Luffy's rubber arm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyt6aFI_sfA THIS is what being artistic and being functional at the same time is. Stanley Kubrick. Not hacks like Shinbo whose cum you swallow because you don't understand a single THING about technical direction. Shinbo does some things right, but he gets a lot of others wrong. I already rattled off a few of the angles he likes to use in repetition yet you still defend it as abstract.
>calls me retarded When you spend time thinking about how to rebut my arguments and only coming up with personal insults this guy's words >>121676704 suddenly come true.
>headshot to headshot >boring That's almost all of the shows during 2 people talking anon. Next you'll be telling me stationary shots are boring because it's to make sure the audience isn't overwhelmed. You fucking faggot.
>>121678069 >literally no counters as to why Shinbo makes mistakes technically >calls camera angles as artsy shots >confirmed plebgatari defender Go back to reddit. You're the kind of hack who defends Michael Bay because he makes money off reused angles and say "hey he makes money" even though he makes a lot of technical mistakes in direction.
I had Satoshi Kon in store for you which would have enriched your background on technical direction in animation but I guess you don't wanna learn and instead cling on to wrong opinions.
>>121678357 All this recycled bullshit >repeated fanservice motion shots during exposition >corner random body part shots during exposition >overhead and telescopic shots on anything but a crowd >numerous close up shots in a single episode which is supposed to indicate a hard point but because its done a lot, loses its meaning >numerous random color slides that only serve the purpose of saving animation money like the order 1886 did for "cinematic experience" when it was just to hide the fact that they couldn't do 1080p 60fps like they promised >Shinbo's head tilt shots that serve no purpose like Bay's getting out of the driver's seat shots >colorful abstract backgrounds with a stationary foreground character which further indicates budget saving because it's cheaper to do CG than draw/animate a moving person All that is my retarded opinion? You fucking cum rag, I have nothing against artsy work but when it's done POINTLESSLY like Shinbo does and his retarded fanbase eats it all up like you it pains me. Because now you people are going to hold it up to become THE standard like reddit is already doing with time travel and Steins;Gate.
>What is there to argue about? Go be pretentious somewhere else you teenage waste of sperm. Next to fujoshis you people are the most irritating anime fanbase ever.
>>121678225 >bringing up Satoshi Kon pleb here thinks that Kon's symbolism and direction are superior. Shinbo's symbolism and direction are almost identical to Kon's, anon. You are just being a judgmental fanboy that is clouded with personal opinion.
Also, being this based to your own opinion doesn't mean anyone else will agree with you. You can just get the fuck out if you hate almost everything about the franchise and the fanbase,
Here we see a direct comparison that is made between the two characters, as Kagenui is shown standing on a pillar to avoid touching the ground while Araragi is shown standing on the ice without a reflection. Despite the fact that they have absolutely nothing in common beyond these oddities that have informed their lives, they share the same burdens precisely because of these oddities.
What's interesting about this title card is how it's deliberately separating "human" from "compassion". Perhaps it begins to hint at the answer to the bigger question being posed by Tadatsuru and the role every character in the series has to play in this bigger game involving dark and mysterious forces. If you notice the theater spotlights that are placed on Araragi throughout the scene, you see that there are two spotlights that use the same colors as the ones on this title card. If these two words represent two distinct concepts, Tadatsuru suggests that Araragi is the one who can unite the two ideas together.
>>121679042 I think it's important to recognize how this is represented on the screen as well. In the scene above, where Yotsugi makes the compassionate choice, we see her shrouded in darkness while Araragi is still lit. At first, we might be led to believe that this is a visual representation of humanity and the loss of humanity. But this is what we see when Yotsugi and Araragi are reunited at the end of the arc.
Now Araragi is the one in darkness, while Yotsugi is the one in the light. It's not necessarily that their roles are reversed, it's more like they are two sides of the same coin. Even though Yotsugi's loss of humanity was meant to create a rift in the relationship, in fact, it makes the bond between the two characters even stronger - especially since she is literally going to live with him now. The ending itself represents the coming together of human compassion, offering hope for Araragi's plight and the inkling of a resistance against the forces that have been manipulating everyone in his life.
>>121679140 One I mentioned was the closeup on Araragi's eye as he declares that he would willingly sacrifice himself in order to save his loved ones. Here we see a similar shot near the end of the arc when Araragi meets with Senjougahara on Valentine's Day:
Araragi's commitment to his morality, which he believes will make him lose his humanity, is also why Senjougahara loves him and will never forget him. What he thinks will make him lose himself is actually something that gives him a presence in the lives of others.
>>121678902 >Shinbo's symbolism and direction are almost identical to Kon's, anon. HA HA HA HA HA let me laugh harder HA HA HA Find me ANYTHING in Monogatari that matches up to Perfect Blue/Paprika and I will literally eat my shoe. Paprika's whole opening scene SHITS on anything Monogatari and Perfect Blue's even better. >Also, being this based to your own opinion doesn't mean anyone else will agree with you. I argued against that one retard in your defense force saying Shinbo DOESN'T make technical mistakes. He does, the retard just refuses to acknowledge it. It's not even opinion, most Japanese soaps use the close up shot consistently like Shinbo does and trust me it looks horrible.
>>121678929 >For what reason? Pointless. I don't know what function it serves besides misusing the angles. Being artsy is not it. It's like I'm using a top of the line camera for a school assignment to film beans grow.
>If they were done for dramatic effect sure but they aren't. Close up shots are usually done to make a point, not just drama. Monogatari uses it to the extent that the moment any character wants to hammer home a point it loses its meaning.
>How silly of them. They should have run the whole thing at 60 FPS. Shaft has the money and the team to deliver better work. You're settling for less.
>Can you be anymore of a faggot? Did I say I disliked it, retard?
>>121679169 The other amusing point to come out is another allusion to the fact that Kaiki and Araragi are very much the same as well.
The fact that we see this represented through Senjoughara, who was helped by both men, is fitting. The fact that she says this while looking into a mirror is perhaps a bit on the nose, but is another example of the visual metaphor they used throughout this arc.
>>121679319 Anon, please. Your middle school interpretations of Shinbo's elementary school level attempts at symbolism are about as subtle as a brick falling off a truck in front of you and crushing your wife's skull after busting thorugh the windshield. I just think it's goddamned pathetic that you think any of this is indicative of a well made competent series.
>>121679422 Are you saying his interpretation isn't subtle? Why would the interpretation be subtle? Or are you saying the symbolism isn't subtle? Because it was never meant to be. It's very fucking overt and in your face.
>>121679454 Butthurt idiots are the ones who rush to defend monogashitari from people who said it wasn't well made or competent. The first half of the thread is filled with the retarded rantings of one and the second half is now filled with yours. Truly the most cancerous fanbase on /a/. Just can't accept how shallow your shitty fanservice series is and have to pretend it's something so much more to justify your enjoyment of it to others. Yeah, anon, it's so deep.
>>121679305 >but the direction was always good This I agree with but there was no need to say there weren't any technical mistakes. If you look at my posts, not once did I say it was bad. I'm not that anon who argued for fanservice at the top.
>No it just reduces monotony. Why should you have the established headshots for dialogue the entire time? What's the point? You can reduce monotony in other ways, not the same shit all the time which I listed. Overuse of something unique that it becomes common is a Shinbo sickness I would like him to be rid of, because at this point I don't know why he's still clinging to the same things. It just serves as fuel for the fanboys to do mental gymnastics on when all it really does is be something out of the ordinary. The material has so much symbolism that the fanboys cannot comprehend that some things are presented to the viewer literally like the fanservice.
>>121679383 Then counter it. I'm waiting. And before you bring up mirror images as symbolism, let me tell you Divergent and Twilight overused it as well and I don't need to tell you how shitty they are.
>>121679533 Looks like I was spot on with that filmfag comment. Good job shitting up the board when you don't actually enjoy anime or manga. I'm still amazed that people waste their breath arguing with someone as stupid as you instead of telling you to fuck off back to your home board.
>>121669885 I agree that there's too much fanservice sometimes. But, compared to the story and characters, I can bear it. Which is something because I hate fanservice. Monogatari (Shaft) puts huge fanservice "gracefully", I found it interesting.
>naked women everywhere >little girl has a bandaid on her crotch, it shows >conversation about intimacy laid over giggling women splashing each other in shower >brother gives his sister an orgasm using a toothbrush
Fanservice, past a certain point, can only detract from show quality, because past a certain point it makes the creators look either
1) insecure; they know they need this layer of TnA to be memorable 2) craven; they know weebs will buy blu-rays because of all the naked waifus
>>121679753 What the flying fuck are you talking about?
People who don't know anything about a medium are easy to spot, and I've made the mistake of arguing with idiots like you enough times to realize that in addition to not knowing anything about anime, you can't form a coherent thought about the films or books you like to pretend are inherently superior. But I'm sure you're different and know all about Japanese language and culture and these mediums and not just an angry 2nd year film major. It's ok, keep spouting technical terms that you've fooled yourself into thinking are esoteric and we don't understand, and then maybe you might convince someone that the set of rules you're applying are valid. I'm sure no one can tell your not actually backing up anything you say.
>>121679780 >Monogatari (Shaft) puts huge fanservice "gracefully", I found it interesting. Is there such thing as graceful fanservice? Because I think the word you're looking for is tasteful. And even Monogatari's fanservice isn't tasteful because of all the fetishes. Fetishes are fetishes because they're not tasteful.
>>121679986 You keep misrepresenting the arguments of multiple anons who make this point. No one has ever said "sex is bad." When I was arguing with you up top I pointed out that there were instances of it being used to further the plot in great ways in this series. The issue is not with the presence of sex or sexuality at all. The issue is with the FOCUS on sexuality and fanservice, often at the behest of real opportunities to tell a comipelling story. Very rarely is it done in this "graceful" way this other anon is talking about, at least not in Monogatari. The fanservice, the sex, the sexuality, whatever the fuck you want to call it anon, is not bad. What's bad is that it takes a highly prominent front seat and is constantly shoved into every little aspect of the plot. Is that Shaft's fault? No. It's just a shitty source to begin with. You can't make an LN that's going to sell without enough sexuality because they're sold primarily to horny teenagers.
>>121679919 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flq0t4jrqJQ One Point perspective: google it. Shinbo's never done this before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iR6L1yZbz6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl_3dr_7Iho All of the mirror symbolism that Bakemonogatari fanboys love to bring up is a young adult genre fangirl's wet dream. It's NOT DEEP as you think it to be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYUFBnAmK28 A short film showing how much superior Kon is to Shinbo. Fanservice being used WELL not for titillation value.
But hey continue claiming that I don't know what I'm talking about. I provided examples out my ass you're just too retarded to scroll up.
>>121679953 Who directs Monogatari and whose style is being used faggot?
>>121680132 Why can't sex be part of a compelling story? Even a main part? The main characters are mostly teens at a time when their hormones are at a peak. It makes sense that the focus of their attention(from which point view the story is told) would be sex for the most part. The story is not only sold to horny teenagers, it's told from their point of view.
>>121680244 >symbolism has to be deep this is why you're a faggot. Monogatari was always overly overt with it's symbolism, it never tried to be deep. If you don't think that's how symbolism should be that's fine but you're a faggot and need to kill yourself.
>>121680308 I've been convinced you're doing this on purpose ever since I stopped arguing with you up top too. I just felt compelled to point out you were making a strawman argument again. The same strawman argument you used against me earlier, only now against someone else making the same argument. The fact remains that anon said the same thing I did earlier and you haven't actually countered the things we've both said either time now, only argued against something neither of us said.
>>121680429 How the fuck am I strawmanning? His problem is there is too much focus on sexuality and it detracts from what he thinks the story should be. >The issue is with the FOCUS on sexuality and fanservice, often at the behest of real opportunities to tell a compelling story. I don't see a focus on sexuality being bad or even out of place. Sexuality is very much a part of the story.
Maybe you should stop making fucking vague bullshit arguments and then backpedaling out of them.
>>121680348 The fuck are you on about? I'm just saying you idiots are obnoxious because any time someone expresses a negative opinion about your glorious studio's works, you all come out of the woodwork to start trying to refute opinions. Who the fuck passed opinions off as facts? I thought this shitty thread finally died and then I saw it pop up again a few hours later because another one of you retards showed up to make sure we all knew how wrong we were to not worship the isometric shadows on the ground Shinbo walks on or whatever. This shit thread has been here all day now and it's just awful.
>>121680551 Because you're taking the argument which is about the amount of a thing and misrepresenting it as an argument about the presence of a thing at all. The argument was about the overabundance of sex, not the use of it at all. But instead of addressing that argument, you instead replied with "why is sex bad?" What sort of reply do you expect to this question? No one even said sex was bad in the first place. You're just making shitty weak arguments up to argue against in plce of the ones people are actually making to you. That's what strawmanning is. That's what you're doing.
>>121680390 >it never tried to be deep. I'm looking at a lot of posts right now in this thread explaining great story telling deep enough to not mind the fanservice.
>>121680467 Hey I'm not the one deciding that shit. /a/ told me that all fanservice was nudity so I'm going with that. I once said fanservice wasn't limited to nudty and he told me I was an idiot and brought up this whole romaji bs thing.
>>121680561 I did. You said I didn't have examples now I do. Obviously anything I'll say at this point will just go through you because you think I'm pretending to know what I'm talking about. Whatever floats your boat.
This butthurt defense force though
>>121680431 But they're increasingly being used in it. Kon said that the only reason he's in anime was because he can make certain cuts faster.
>>121680634 Okay but how much is too much? The people claiming every episode of monogatari is filled with sexuality are just downright wrong. It might even feel that way because of the impact the scenes have but actually not that much is devoted to it, certainly less than actual ecchi shows.
In bake we have the panty shot in the opening scene for episode 1, crab changing for episode 2, some snail molestation in 3 and 4, nothing in 5, 6 has a spats shot and I think that's about it, 7 and 8 have nothing. Snake arc has a bunch of lewd nadeko because she's a slut and there is some of cat in the last 5 episodes because well shit, that arc is all about cat wanting to fuck araragi and him having to choose between her and crab.
That is not >highly prominent front seat and is constantly shoved into every little aspect of the plot and if you think so I don't agree at all.
>>121680872 >I'm looking at a lot of posts right now in this thread explaining great story telling deep enough to not mind the fanservice. Great story does not mean deep story. I don't even know what deep is supposed to mean anymore anyways. I think it means subtle? But I'm not sure anymore. There is some subtle stuff in monogatari but for the most part it does not try to be.
>>121680872 >One Point perspective: google it. Shinbo's never done this before.
How is that an argument for anything?
>All of the mirror symbolism that Bakemonogatari fanboys love to bring up is a young adult genre fangirl's wet dream. It's NOT DEEP as you think it to be.
The two examples don't use mirrors as symbolism but as straight plot elements.
>A short film showing how much superior Kon is to Shinbo. Fanservice being used WELL not for titillation value.
Where is the fanservice? And not sure how that improves anything.
>>121680872 >But they're increasingly being used in it. Kon said that the only reason he's in anime was because he can make certain cuts faster. >cetain cuts
Anime is general limited to fixed perspective. Anything else is expensive, there are several experiments to overcome the limits with CG backgrounds but most results are jarring. Shaft is one of the few studios which does such cuts regularly.
>>121680872 Examples of what? What objective proof is "here are some scenes I like" if you can't explain why? Again, "it uses these film techniques" isn't a giving argument in favor of it because you just learned about it in class last week.
>>121681203 It's incredible how, by now, "buzzword" is a fucking buzzword.
All it really means is "I don't believe your words are yours, it is just a rehash of a common, unoriginal argument".
It's like fucking "sea-lioning"; you pretend the people talking to you don't mean what they say, and thus, you don't bother responding.
Newsflash, that's the best way to ensure no communication occurs, since you pretty much remove the other from the discussion; it's going BEYOND strawmaning, you remove the actual argument, and don't even replace it.
And by the by, stop pretending that fan-service and actual plot can (an do, in -monogatari's case) go hand in hand, it's dishonest, all you're really watching is "porn with plot", and you pretend that adding a coming of age story makes it high art.
>>121681062 I don't even know what it means nowadays either. For me a well told story that succeeds in telling what it wants to tell is a good story.
>>121681079 >How is that an argument for anything? That Shinbo could use a little more variety in his work. I've been repeating the whole thing since my first post here.
>The two examples don't use mirrors as symbolism but as straight plot elements. But still symbolism.
>Where is the fanservice? I was linked this this back then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_service You're welcome to change my mind as the latest guy on /a/ to tell me what it is because I don't even know anymore.
>Anime is general limited to fixed perspective etc Bleach and in consequence Studio Pierrot uses it as well at around 1:18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D2lhBCFk-k Shaft IS one of teh studios that do this but it's a hit or miss for me. Korean Zombie was something I feel did Shaft's style best.
>>121681411 I said I didn't like Monogatari's overuse of angles and brought up some examples of how it could use a little more toning down and variety in response to one idiot who said Shinbo didn't do any technical mistakes because he saw it as artistic. I don't need to give you vids of my claims for Monogatari nor do I need to repeat myself because you're just lazy enough to not backread.
>>121681324 Every season is like that. The part with eroticism are so prominent and memorable that it just seems like there was a lot. Even nise which was supposed to be the most ecchi of them all has just 3 real ero scenes, bat in the bat, Araragi wiping down bee and then the toothbrush scene.
The problem for me that just kills it dead is that the characters are just annoying as absolute fuck and completely unrelatable like 90% of light novel adapations. Like is often the case they just seem cynically made to pander to people that are into the whole waifu things except kick the tropes into overdrive to make the characters the most extreme possible versions of their archetypes. The story is written and directed all abstract and sometimes even with entire gaps missing from the flow of events (which is already unnaturally slow as it is) to make it seem deeper and more introspective than it really is at the end of the day. It doesn't help that it's constantly thrusting fanservice and "camera angles" at you often at the same time it's trying to convey story through dialogue almost as it's thumbing it's nose at the very idea of how you'd normally expect a story to be told. And no just because it handles things in ways that most series never would does not automatically make it extra specially well done or more complex.
Also I just find it's fanbase utterly obnoxious and really self-important period so don't particularly care about what it has to say, which frankly isn't much other than to feel entitled to act like smug fucks for no particularly well defined reason. As far this is a franchise that just shoots straight for the lowest common denominator and is probably just targeted at assholes like most of Aniplex's output seems to be.
Honestly I'm also just kind of tired of hearing about it from /a all the time with the same old tired cyclical topics over who the best girl is or why this or that plotline is super deep and have to say that even it's own fans here don't seem to take it particularly seriously anymore and are just going through the motions of the circle jerk at this point.
>>121681498 Responding with offhand remarks isn't going to make your post any more intelligent.
>The opposite. Mirror scenes are just an excuse for a character to look and discover themselves which is the whole point of the symbolism. Also, nice confirmation that you didn't watch any of the clips.
>>121681684 >muh backpedaling Nigger my first post was saying that the random slides of color during scene changes was bullshit. I still stand by it because I don't think it's artistic, it's lazy as fuck. On the succeeding posts I expounded that I wanted to see more variety because your butthurt is advertising Monogatari as some high brow fanservice entertainment when all I see are technical errors due to overuse of angles which you faggots see as "artistic" capiche?
Yeah I think LOGH is a pretty fair example. It really helps that it knows how to actually damn well tell a compelling story with interesting characters that grow and evolve and show other sides to themselves as time goes on.
Part of the problem with a lot of anime that's supposedly meant to be top notch these days is that almost all of it only seems to be getting told from the perspective of otaku for otaku relating to subjects or interests that only otaku could possibly find all that interesting in the long run. It's not even that the characters are extra special one dimensional or the scripts extra special thoughtless compared to other mediums, it's that increasingly what these stories are able to focus on and the types of characters that need to be included are all focus grouped onto one particular fringe demographic in Japan's sets of interests and how it understands the world. IMO this is why some of the outcomes, character portrayals and views expressed by characters in a lot of recent popular material seems so fucked up and really ill-conceived even as it's trying to put on this air of importance. If you're coming at late night TV anime from the perspective of someone expecting to see something related to the way the actual world or people kind of interact, think and talk many popular anime are going to be pretty hit or miss.
>>121681818 Literally nobody on /a/ talks about how the plotline is super deep. Apart from the many 'best girl' threads, the vast majority of posts are people bitching about how pretentious the show and its fans are.
>>121682017 You just said you don't like 90% of all characters adapted from LNs. You hating all the characters is fine, but you have to realize that's your own(shitty) subjective opinion and can't really be discussed.
The problem with the Monogatari fanbase isn't that they enjoy the series when some such as myself don't, it's how holier than thou and self-important they tend to be about it. It's like they truly think that because they see some extra special depth in this franchise that I find stuffed with annoying characters and entirely too much pointless fanservice stuff that that somehow makes them better than others and it's just about the most laughable thing to see. IMO the Monogatari fanbase has no cause to bitch or feel hard done by because other people criticize the franchise the way they act so ridiculously smug about it.
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