Say what you will about the Oedipus Trilogy being entry-level shit but I really did feel moved by every one of the three sections. Tragedies in a classical sense are so engaging, I was 'oh shit' edge of seat more than anything else I've ever watched
I don't get why we don't have more of anything else besides the shit comedies, romances, romantic comedies, action flicks, etc.
>>122005730 I might have accidentally when full /tv/ and talked about films I don't actually know the state of the anime industry in terms of diversity of genre, but I can see variety on here alone, so I believe you.
>>122005329 The plot of every VN in existence: >MC is the only man in existence, of others exist they are pure evil or the best bro of the MC >MC has a super special awesome magic power that may or may not be so super special awesome depending on the power of his friendship level. >All girls want the MC's cock, especially the 3-5 girls that the MC will have to pick from. >MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening. >The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one.
For bonus 'drama': >Girls are all being hunted by something/someone, dying of an incurable ailment, need the MC's blood/jizz/magical power/exc. to survive or a combo of the three.
>>122005911 Well I was judging Muv Luv by your criteria and
>MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening. >The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one. >Girls are all being hunted by something/someone, dying of an incurable ailment, need the MC's blood/jizz/magical power/exc. to survive or a combo of the three.
Most people can't define tragedy beyond "...uh, something sad, I guess?" - of which there is enough media out there that tries to source its entertainment value by plugging at ye heartstrings, so transparently indeed that we have our own buzzword "forced drama" for it.
It's not even that most people can*t handle "sad" content (as some commenters suggested) or only want happy stuff, no but the matter is there is only a rather specific type of sadness presented. Example case being the cliche of cute girl dying from some anime-disease, that's the type of "tragedy" that otakus will lap up for "feels"
At the risk of being told to fuck off to /v/ I just want to point out that as I was replaying Majora's Mask I really realized how much of that fucking game works as maybe the first real tragic game in 3D. Everything from the mechanics of the game to its atmosphere reinforces the central theme of the inevitable. And the beauty of it all is that this isn't accomplished by some half-assed explanation. It's accomplished by the game itself. The tragedy of Termina is that link is only human. No one could ever possibly save everyone in Termina. The player's flaw becomes Link's flaw. And in that sense, the tragedy is twofold. It manifests itself in both the character and the actor.
Just some thoughts. I can't actually think of an anime that really satisfies the elements of what I would call a traditional tragedy.
>>122006512 the 97 anime is classic but it would have been so much better if it dropped the first episode and changed the ending from the manga to have guts killed, then it would stand on its own completely
>>122006236 >The actual structure of Madoka does not resemble a tragedy though. Especially not the ending It ended on a bittersweet note, but I think there were enough Faustian themes and descents into murder-suicide to warrant a few depressive descriptions.
The movie sequel on the other hand ended with one of the characters undermining the free will of the one she loves, to the point where she forces her into a gilded cage despite the implied conflict it would cause for them in the future. Sequel bait maybe, but it wasn't really a pick-me-up.
>>122007196 Yeah, you're kind of right. I'm not going to quote anyone but Sophocles, not the first, is a famous guy. I don't get why you're being all snarky about nothing. I don't think of Gilgamesh as a tragedy. >>122007229 I can kind of see that. Fuse prioritizing the survival of the brigade did not foresee her killing until the last moment.
Every time he turns the clock back he wavers. Every time. Again and Again. Link fails far more often than he doesn't. The really tragedy isn't Link though. It's the people that he's unable to help. You can't save everyone. You can't even save most people. You can't save Anju and Kafei, and Pamela, and the Gorons, and the Zora Eggs, and the Monkeys or the Romani cows. There simply isn't the time. You can play the game again, and again, and again, rewinding time as much as you want but eventually you'll just have to kill Majora, and by that point you will have failed. Your fatal flaw is your own humanity. It haunts you even in victory.
Take a look at the credits screen if you need any more proof. You couldn't even save the Butler's son.
>>122007305 >>122007229 these niggas get it Jin Roh was the only strong tragedy I've seen in anime. That being said, the entire industry is getting worse and worse so we best not expect anything better.
>>122007462 The Butler's son was screwed before you even entered Termina proper.
There's only 2 conflicting events: -stopping Sakon from looting the Bomb Shop lady versus helping Kafei get the Sun's Mask from Sakon's Hideout -giving Kafei's letter to his mom versus giving it to the Postman, both of which get made irrelevant if the Moon is stopped anyway
EVERYTHING else that Link can fix over those 3 days can be done in a single 3-day loop once Link has all the key items carried over.
>>122006542 I'll concede to the manga's superior pacing and time for detail, but I still love the old anime, despite the tragically abrupt finish. The music, the atmosphere, the lack of Puck, those goofy outtakes from the dub, etc.
>>122006675 >preface the recommendation with the fact that the show ends on a cliffhanger Yeah... That's probably wise. Damage is done though.
>>122007166 Eeh, the first episode was skippable, but I don't think that completely killing the open-ending would have made it more satisfying.
>>122004894 It's because tragedies are governed by decently strict conventions. At this point, the 'classical' tragedy is largely played out novelty-wise, so you have to execute it very well for people to care.
i was gonna say cowboy bebop was a tragedy but then I realized spike basically knew he was getting into the whole time and there was no sense of irony, he just went in, watched his gf get killed, then got himself killed cause fuck it
>>122007708 Akame ga Kill's author is a fucking hack whose manga basically runs on shock factor. I know the word "edgy" is misused on 4chan on many boards but when most of the drama of the story comes from "characters being raped and killed" it fits. Not to mention the retarded mood dissonance between comedy and dark shounen drama.
>>122007854 Suffering exists because we're gluttons for punishment.
Tragedy exists because someone irrevocably erased their own path forward. If someone endured a fucked-up life but died with zero regret, the outsider will still think that person's life was a tragedy because they generally don't want to live out said fucked-up life.
Classic Greek/Shakespearean Tragedy: a story in which a protagonist's actions lead to their downfall, often moral and often providing a cathartic release. Generally easily predictable or flat-out spoiled at the beginning of the story.
Modern Tragedy: show with sad or heavily bittersweet ending, but still designed to trigger a cathartic response. That's the real key: it's able to trigger emotions we otherwise keep bottled up because being sad makes us happy.
-Fate/Zero fits the definition. -Madoka's not a classic tragedy because, despite the characters having archetypal tragic hero arcs, the downfall is undone by Madoka's sacrifice. -Angel Beats is arguably a modern tragedy because of catharsis and a bittersweet ending. Possibly same with Clannad, but I still haven't seen it so I'm not sure. -Death Note's not really a tragedy because Light's a villain protagonist and not a tragic hero. -A lot of Mushishi episodes are tragedies.
Not many good tragedies in anime but there are a few gems out there. Same can be said of modern media as a whole.
>>122008160 What the fuck are you getting on at? >>122008226 Yeah. I was getting at the fact that he didn't die in Oedipus Rex. His living in Oedipus at Colonus (Which is not the sequel, but the first published and performed work) is important, and his death is anything but tragic. It is a redemption.
>>122008235 Homura is not the villain, Kyuubei is. In the series and the first two movies Homura is the deuteragonist while Madoka is the protagonist. In Rebellion Homura is the protagonist and therefore the tragic hero.
Also, Shakespeare did not invent tragedies. Shakespearean tragedies are their own subgenre and have different characteristics than the overarching genre of "tragedy". It was Aristole that said a tragic hero is defined by a loss of prosperity, not by death. Though death is a good example of a lost of prosperity.
>>122008235 >The villain must die. Oedipus does not die in Oedipus Rex. Oedipus Rex is a classic Greek tragedy. Therefore, the MC doesn't have to die for something to count as a tragedy. Why is this so hard?
>>122008379 >The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant. c.f, >The villain must die. (>>122008235) Are you actually trying to be completely incoherent?
>>122008379 >The presence of death or suffering is irrelevant. Then I agree with you. I was saying to the first guy that Oedipus, the main guy, didn't die in Rex. In fact, no one had to die in Rex and it still would've been a tragedy. You might be a different guy, I don't know.
>>122008526 That's not what I said. I said the presence of death and suffering is irrelevant.
There's death in a story, and then there's a story constructed around a death. That is what tragedy is. A structure. A story isn't a tragedy just because you're sad that people die or suffer in it. Every war movie is not a tragedy.
>>122004894 The masses eat tragedies up. Everyone loves them. I'm not sure why producers are so afraid of them. Be they aren't gone. There Will Be Blood was a recent movie. And I never saw the end of Breaking Bad, but I'm guessing it wasn't a "happily ever after".
>>122008701 Not quite. Hubris and Downfall are the most prominent, of course, but there are also classical tragedies that feature more or less innocent protagonists who are simply caught in lose-lose scenarios and inescapable catastrophe
>>122008499 Society in general, most people don't even touch a serious book, maybe they read the new shitty best seller and newer generations for the most part don't pass the young adult literature phase.
>>122009870 >Snows as girl is implied to be ghost >As he lets go of the balloon that symbolizes his memory of her from years past >As the girl he should be after arrives and is a total bro How's that for you? Unsurprisingly, Oshii directed a lot of this series.
>>122006512 >>122006542 BESERK. I know im gonna get a lot of shit for this, but is the manga better or the anime? I'm actually up to date with the manga, give or take a few chapters cuz busy recently, but is it worth watching the anime?
Urobuchi's works are tragedies. One just needs to explore the themes a little more to realise this.
The Golden Age Arc of Berserk definitely seems like a tragedy to me. I have not gotten far with the Manga though I plan to eventually, but from where the movies and anime series left us off I'm assuming the continuation isn't just sunshine and rainbows
>>122009870 as a music persom I am actually most offended by the inevitable string swells or piano that always accompany this type of scene as if cueing the audience "HEY IDIOTS YOU SHOULD FEEL SAD HERE THIS IS A SAD SCENE" and this overly blatant attempt at emotional manipulation always prompts a revulsion that takes me out of the immersion. This shit is to cheap drama what basically a laugh track is to cheap comedy
>>122010144 The anime got me into the manga when I was 15. I was feeling utter despair after the last two episodes. Then I fapped when I saw how many chapters were already out. Now I wanna slap Miura for being a perfectionist asshole
Even though everyone on here seems to hate it but I felt Mirai Nikki could have been pretty strong on this side if it hadn't pulled the ova and the ending of the last episode.
The constant switch between a grasp of hope( like him suddenly having real friends) and the hammer of fate which ultimately denied everything he wished for, while cursing him with the resulting neverending loneliness was actually very captivating.
Not Macbeth, but there's Japanese film based on King Lear. Although the setting and the characters itself was changed to fit in the era of Warring States, Samurai, and Daimyo; most of the plotline is still the same.
>>122009997 >>122009942 >>122009870 Honestly, I don't think it's so bad. It's kind of like the chorus popping out and telling us "Thus ends the life of Hero main/ whose life was naught but tons of pain" in that a non-character being is telling us the nature of his tragedy. The sky weeps, or the clouds part, and all is revealed in that character's final moment.
>>122008194 >-Death Note's not really a tragedy because Light's a villain protagonist and not a tragic hero. Death Note can be argued to be following Shakespearean tragedies. It's more in line with others like Macbeth and King Lear in that regard. And his name getting written into Ryuk's book is pretty much the epitome of a classic tragic end.
"Hero" doesn't mean "good guy" in this context so Light being the villian is completely irrelevant to the classification other than "Is he the main character?" and "Is karma coming to bite him in the ass?" It's why over half the thread cites Breaking Bad because to quote Jesse: "[Walt] can't keep getting away with this." Walt rises to Heisenberg, then everything he's worked for comes crashing down and he has only himself to blame.
But DN being a tragedy is probably only secondary in its genre/classification because it's more of a thriller than anything.
And I don't know if I like your interpretation of modern style tragedies. I'd argue it's more of "MC starts in a bad place, and then it gets worse all the way." So if we drew a graph of say, a character's power/accomplishment within the story, a Shakespearean tragedy would be a mountain where the line goes up, hits a peak, then it comes down (usually lower than the starting point) like pic related. A modern tragedy would just be a line going straight down with occasional bumps. Most people don't know the difference so just claim "hurr there's suffering, it must be a tragedy". A typical feel-good story where the good guys get a happily ever after would be a V shape where it goes down, then comes back up.
So to give a handful of random examples of classic tragic heroes/characters (not shows) in animu, we'd have: - Light in Death Note - Lelouch in Code Geass R1 (if we ignore R2) - Togame in Katanagatari (as mentioned by >>122007343) - Gendo from Evangelion - I guess Kiritsugu from Fate/Zero (I'm still iffy on this)
I was going to write the other list but 2000 chars. Sorry.
>>122014133 It's the combination of Nagisa and Ushio's death and all the suffering that came with it that makes people think it's a tragedy but this is just the uninformed opinion of "sad scenes = tragedy".
>>122014507 Ehh I dunno about that. He achieved his ambitions and basically got to do everything he wanted to do. We, the audience, know the true story so Lelouch's death wasn't a tragic end at all. It's not the act of pretending he's the villian IMO, it's the fact that it was his plan all along and it worked exactly as he wanted it. R1's end was basically everything he's built and loved crashing down and/or turning on him.
Like, if Light's plan in Death Note for the end was to intentionally get caught and get exposed so that the world that lived in fear rises up against him, defeats him (because he knows he's guaranteed to be killed by Ryuk), then in a fresh bout of released introspection create some sort of morally good utopia, then nobody would argue he's a tragic hero. Part of the formula IIRC involved nothing ultimately going to plan. No happy retirement for King Lear, no crazed teenage sex honeymoon for Romeo+Juliet, no kingdom for Macbeth, and no world peace for Lelouch.
>If anything, he's even more Byronic. I never heard that term in my advanced high school and entry college literature classes so I don't know what you mean, sorry. Can you explain?
>>122004894 >>122007533 I'll read/ watch a tragedy if the plot is interesting or if it's an account of real life, but not fictional tragedy for the sake of tragedy, which is what a lot of stuff in the genre falls into.
There's already enough tradedy in real life, and lots of books, articles, and documentaries chronicling it, so why would I want my fiction to be about it?
>>122007851 Fate doesn't have >MC is the only man in existence, of others exist they are pure evil or the best bro of the MC There are a lot of girls, but guys aren't particularly rare too. >MC has a super special awesome magic power that may or may not be so super special awesome depending on the power of his friendship level. He has special powers, yeah, but they kinda suck and everybody around has more special powers than him. >MC will make ghandi look like a war criminal by refusing to use violence even in the face of death, but will take no action to prevent violence from happening. Just plain wrong. Even in the first route. Remember how he almost snapped Shinji's neck in cold blood there? >The girls will solve all the MC's problems for him and then he will pick the worst one. Arguable. Saber is king of jobbers after the first route and Rin is more of a support than a fighter. Sakura is right out. If we count Archer as a girl, maybe you're right.
>>122017412 >Evangelion Gendo might qualify but he's not the protag and NGE isn't a tragedy, at least in the classical sense.
>Madoka Individual timelines before Madokami's creation might qualify as tragedies for the megucas but the show proper+Rebellion isn't. At best, it's half of a tragedy where we don't get to see the downfall and aftermath of Homura's dollhouse reality.
>Guilty Crown Sadly still on my backlog so I can't give an opinion.
>>122014507 >>122015440 So I did some reading from Google and asked a couple friends about it, and my understanding is that a Byronic hero wouldn't necessarily be a tragic hero even though there is some overlap. Am I correct in that? It seems Lelouch would qualify as a Byronic hero like you said but I don't think that makes him a tragic hero too.
>>122004817 The tragedy genre only exists in the domain of theater. The equivalent for audiovisual medias such as cinema and anime would be the drama(not as in the japanese "dramas", but the drama film http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drama_film ).
People, going by that definition, say that Kiritsugu made a mistake.
But he didn't make any mistakes during his pursuit of his ideals. He would have literally brought world peace if it weren't for bad luck.
In his case, the "flaw" is rather personal, in being unable to enjoy life, and the "admission" to that "flaw" is really just giving up because he has simply been *unable* to reach his ideal; it's not that he decides the ideal itself to be a mistake.
I just wanted to say this, because I'm a Kerry autist.
>>122021308 I remember being surprised by that. Surely, world peace can not exist, so the Grail must not work in the first place. Obviously, it will turn out that it never would have worked in the first place, right? Well, kinda, but nope. If it wasn't for Einzberns screwing everything up with their "special snowflake" Avenger a war before, everything would've been completely fine, and Kerry could've gotten genuine world peace, 'cause Root is pretty powerful and we're specifically reaching for the Root here. In the end it was probably supposed to say that you can't reach world peace and it's a pipe dream, but I just found it kinda funny how Kerry failed pretty much because of Einzberns being incompetent, and nothing more. Not that it wasn't still largely his fault.
>>122021870 >Surely, world peace can not exist, so the Grail must not work in the first place. Obviously, it will turn out that it never would have worked in the first place, right? I don't see why world peace cannot exist. You only need to change some key aspects of human nature. I certainly know that a world full of people like me would be peaceful. >Kerry could've gotten genuine world peace, 'cause Root is pretty powerful and we're specifically reaching for the Root here Yeah, that's canon from what I got, as weird as it is.
>>122022033 I meant that you think the only difference between the two is whether it's in the context of theater or film. In other words, that drama and tragedy are identical terms except for the chosen medium.
>>122022719 Films need the ending hook to pull in the most sales possible, so if one film about a lone female survivor in a zombie apocalypse is advertised as "the greatest tragedy since X", congrats, you just lost sales from the mainstream crowd that wants to believe she might make it out OK.
Tragedy is generally shit, because the Japanese aren't very good at pulling it off. Their idea of tragedy is just to kill off the MC at the end of the show and hope it works. And usually that just means a shitty ending. Some shows can pull it off.
LOGH wasn't tragedy but it was pretty tragic, since almost everyone you care about dies. Gungrave is one example of tragedy that was actually great, I cried at the end, for real. I guess Geass counts, but I am reluctant to call that "tragedy", it just doesn't fit the show in my mind. Requiem for the Phantom is an example of a shitty execution leading to a terrible ending (go read the VN, way better).
If you're talking classic Greek tragedy, there's not much of it in anime because it's been played out. Even Sophocles and Euripides had to make major innovations to the genre to keep people interested.
If you're talking about tragedy in general, I disagree because just about every anime nowadays has elements of tragedy shoehorned in. I mean even in 90% of those dumb harems that come out the MC has some tragic bullshit past. Chuuni teenagers eat that shit up. And the anime that revolve around a tragic main character almost inevitably end up being garbage (Guilty Crown, Valvrave, etc.)
Directing my attention to that anime about Lovecraftian monsters being moefied got me thinking: people aren't afraid of monsters anymore. They likely haven't been in a long time.
That's expected. That's comprehensible. Something once terrifying being regarded as jokes in a later era is nothing new.
The problem is, when I sat and tried to think what people today are in general afraid of, I got nothing. Not monsters, not gods, not tyranical govenrments, not crime, not loneliness, not pollution, not WW3. Terrorist groups like ISIS are instead looked up to, considering people all over the world keep leaving their homes and families to migrate and join their ranks. People practically sell their souls and loyalty to super corporations that make no hidden effort to exploit them and trample over their rights.
Is humanity that weary of life, we've stopped fearing anything as a species?
I ask this because I'm personally a sucker for tragedy, too, but I feel people have gotten too callous and numb for such genre.
>>122006020 Traditionally a tragedy is the tale of a great man brought low by his own flaws. The death of the main character is common but not necessary for the form. In the Greek tradition, Tragedy and Comedy were the precursors to what we would now call genres, as in they both had their own tropes and plot conventions, but tragedy is common to all cultures, so strict adherence to the Greek form isn't necessary for something to be tragedy.
>>122026681 They're scared of losing their wealth. Write King Lear in a modern setting, from the viewpoint of Kent or Edgar, where they lose all their money to corporate shenanigans, and watch people shit their pants.
That's the influence of postmodernism encouraging the subversion of fictional convention, not people actually being less afraid of shit. People as whole still have personal phobias and shit, it's just stories don't seek to capitalize on that as much. Go tell any experienced therapist that people don't fear things anymore and you'll get laughed out of the room.
Tl;DR, stop overthinking shit because somebody drew Yog-Sothoth with tits.
>>122026943 I think the anon is vouching for solid established plot structure, rather than reusing the same old stories.
Not every story is Cinderella, but there are a lot that have the same basic shape of the plot and are good stories. Hell, you can even have basically shaped plots coming together and intertwining to have a brand new shape.
>>122026933 >Write King Lear in a modern setting, from the viewpoint of Kent or Edgar, where they lose all their money to corporate shenanigans Hmm. Sounds reasonable. Never been good with economics myself though, but after reading some of Orwell's Homage to Catalonia these past few days, I might have an idea of how to view it from a more political angle.
>>122027392 Homage to Catalonia is his memoir of his time fighting for the Commies during the Spanish Civil War. The Spanish Civil War is a tragedy if you look at it from the view of the Spanish Communists.
>>122027054 Ah, shut up. A few days ago, that video about a bum getting shot down by the police spread around the internet, causing people all over the world go all 'OMG SAVAGES' 'HOW HORRIBLE *downboat*' 'CZECH UR PRIVILEGES, COP-SCUM' on facebook and other social websites.
Two days later, everyone's attention was centered on Kardashian's deceptively lit dress.
>>122026881 Narrative complexity has advanced a great deal since the times when classic tragedies were written. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that the format is only rarely revived nowadays. I mean, I recognize their history, but reading something like Aeschylus' Oresteia is more of a chore than a thrill.
Also, personally, I don't think anime as a medium really lends itself to tragedy to begin with. There are plenty of other media where it's done better and more frequently.
>>122004817 I don't know if this has been said, but the vast majority of anime is an adaptation of some manga, LN, or VN series or is a TV series.
Longer series tend to not have an overarching structure, although there are exceptions like Breaking Bad, etc. However, there are TONS of episodes or story arcs of tons of shows that follow the classic tragedy structure.
A lot of them aren't even good, just like how there were tons of shitty tragedies in literature that we don't know about anymore.
>>122004817 Most "tradgedies" in anime are hamfisted and the sadness shoved in your face with little girls crying about the clearly bad & unfortunate thing that happened, if it's not clear, it's repeated by the characters numerous times.
>>122027764 Well it's a play, it's not really meant to be read like a novel. There's no description of physical traits or actions. It's all on the actor. I would imagine the script for the LotR movies to be incredibly dull when you just read it. I agree that reading the Oresteia isn't all to great, but it is much better to see it performed.
>>122027900 Yeah that's a fair point. At the same time, while yeah I've never seen it performed, I have a hard time seeing how even the best actors could sell it without updating everything to a more modern structure.
>>122027905 Tragedy is supposed to move you with a good depiction of how something great and possibly beautiful falls to pieces because of flaws in human nature. Makoto could have a good, healthy relationship, but he is overcome by his need to stick his dick into everything he sees. Kerry can be happy with his family, he clearly loves all of his children and his wife to death, but his rigid moral philosophy prevents him from pursuing a happy route. A little girl being struck and killed by a drunk driver is sad, but not a tragedy. When a father resolves to become sober for his daughter's sake but because of the weakness of his character, breaks at a crucial point and drowns his sorrows, and then kills his daughter, who had gone out to look for him because he was out for so long, in a drunk driving accident is a tragedy.
>>122027864 Tragedy isn't meant to be subtle. Tragedy in real life leaves people destroys peoples lives and leaves them sobbing wrecks, tragedy in fiction has a similar effects on characters. This is true in both it's classic and modern forms.
>>122028433 Because Shakespeare could fucking write like a god when he wanted to. Yes, there's plenty of lowbrow humor and stupid puns but there are nuggets of gold in there, and if you deny the existence of the artistry that exists in Shakespeare because "it's popular" and "it pandered to the masses," you are a goddamn Philistine and a disgusting hipster.
>hurr these ancient statues and priceless artifacts pander to the non-halal masses and are too hard to bastardize into some muhammad sounding bullshit so let's break it. That's what you sound like.
Yes, but you're insulting a lot of English majors out there.
He does have some pithy and timeless quotes: "We must not make a scarecrow of the law, Setting it up to fear the birds of prey, And let it keep one shape, till custom make it Their perch and not their terror."
Kiminozo has tragic characters. Hayase being unable to give up on Takayuki, even when Suzumiya is in a coma and even when she gets out of the coma is a flaw in her character and leads to major conflicts and heartbreak.
If in your example, said loli is sad that the accident happened, and her parents are friends are sad, and the consequences of the accident are sad, then it's just a sad story. If you try to consciously avoid tragic arcs, and just have everyone get shit on by fate instead of their own actions, you end up with garbage like bumping into the boy around the corner while you have toast in your mouth, the cute blonde girl falling out the sky, your parents are overseas and a cute girl appears on your doorstep in the buff with a note pinned to her stomach saying that she's your foreigner cousin. In short, your scenario, if it consciously avoids giving characters flaws that will damn them and instead has to contrive circumstances where fate and God must actively shit on lives to bring some sort of emotional reaction in the audience, you get an anime I would drop in the first two episodes.
i don't have to agree with that bullshit self-proclamed definition, let alone someone in india, or china, or namibia, or japan.
literature is a soft and malleable subject, so assuming a hard definition of tragedy is a tragic exercise in hubris (and a sign of having too few stamps on your passport). if you want something harder, go study engineering.
>>122005799 Popular example: >Asuka is first seen as a confident and skilled pilot >Things get rough >Her strongest traits begin to work against her >Pride causes her to burn bridges, realization that her level of skill does not allow for her level of pride >Mental invasion. Weaknesses become fully exposed, couldn't escape because of her pride.
>EoE >First major scene is her being defiled while vulnerable >Later learns that the origin of her weakness, and the one person she desires, her mother, was inside Unit 02 >Confidence restored >Tragic flaw of pride: AT field is shattered while acting cocky >Asuka is brutally murdered by several copies of the Spear of Longinus, a weapon that pierces the target's soul and will >Her mother, the source of her newfound joy, is eaten alive by giant vultures >It all returns to nothing >Asuka is willed back to life, only to be defiled in rebuilds
>1. A likeable protagonist with a major flaw in their character. At first glance, she is adored by all. >2. A central conflict that causes this protagonist to fall from grace as a result of this flaw. The neglect from, and the death of her mother >3. A part where the protagonist admits to their mistakes, but only after it is too late for them to make amends. Amends are made with herself and her mother.
Fall from grace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weK5m6Jn0zY
>>122029565 Do I need to go to India to pick up a copy of the Mahabharata? Do I need to have visited to Japan and Greece to read a paper on the structure of Kabuki drama and how it compares to Ancient Greek drama? Do I need to live in Japan to watch anime and post on /a/? Denouncing a well documented and supported definition because someone reads in their local library instead of talking with local folk in a Hong Kong pub and to poopoo literature as a soft and malleable subject is much closer to hubris than your example. In fact, it's ironic that your post, where you accuse others of excessive and arrogant behavior, has excessive and arrogant behavior. But because the definition of irony is soft and malleable, I might be wrong.
>>122028325 Shakespeare was a poet. His work was mostly popular at the time because of how lyrical and beautiful his dialogue/monologues were.
The comedy scenes in Shakespeare were usually written in prose so the commoners could understand them while the dramatic scenes were written in poetry.
Greek plays don't work as well in the modern age because they rely on archaic structural elements like the greek chorus, and the whole pro/deu/tritangonist acting conceit just comes across as kind bizarre.
>>122030296 I saw a recording a performance of something by Sophocles where the greek chorus was a bunch of guys in suits, and they marched around the stage whenever they had lines. It was definitely bizarre.
>>122032278 Melodrama. The emotional crux of the story is based in circumstances dictated by fate rather than by the characters' flaws, and so instead of the motivations of the characters and their actions being what draws you to the show, it's the feels. Also, it is literally a melodrama, as melos is music.
To call "tragedy" nothing but its original Greek roots is stupid as shit. The Hellenistic peoples had very strict guidelines about what they considered tragedy - things must be a foregone conclusion, it must be the result of hubris, and always it's about powerful people falling from power. Shakespeare took a similar approach, It's not Mr. Lear at the gas station but KING Lear, but in the modern Era people started experimenting and decided that those labels were stupid and don't apply to everything. Even normal people have places to fall, and they can be ruined without reaching rock bottom. Catharsis wasn't always a good thing either. Think, say, Requiem for a Dream or Death of a Salesman.
Tragedy, ultimately, is about loss and decline. That's really all that matters. That doesn't mean that any anime with those elements is a tragedy, though. It has to be the backbone.
>>122030931 AnJ is definitely not a goddamn tragedy, but say, Texhnolyze, Saikano, Yosuga no Sora*. Tragic endings don't make tragedies, happy endings don't make not-tragedies.
>>122032404 >>122032278 Shigatsu is not tragedy, but that's not the reason. Look at Greek theater. Half of all tragedies have a fate show up at some point and forsee what's going to happen. Oedipus purposely tries to avoid his fate, but gets dragged back into it.
Shigatsu is not tragedy because it's not about loss, fundamentally. >>122028831 What are you, an idiot? The theater was open to everyone, for a long time it was considered burlesque and low class entertainment.
>>122036833 You can't just downplay Shinji, Misato, and Rei's plights and expect me to take your argument seriously. Almost all of Asuka's screentime in NGE is devoted to comic relief and lighthearted shenanigans, we hardly know a single thing about her until her hamfisted 'edgy' backstory in 23+24. Unlike the previous three who actually explored desire to communicate with others outside of themselves and had well-established bonds with other characters, Asuka remains a poorly executed ripoff of Kushina and Nadia. Keep in mind this is only in comparison, however, I still think she's a great character and personally is my second favorite in the show due to how much I could relate to her.
>>122039340 Uh, what? He most certainly would have. He suffered from depression during Nadia's production, which resulted in Eva's presentation of darker themes dealing with his experiences, but that has nothing to do with the kind of characters he created within the show. Misato spawned from Anno's love of Shoujo, Rei and Shinji spawned from Anno himself; regardless of whether he would experience what he did with Nadia, those three characters would show up in his work whereas Asuka probably would not if Kushina and Nadia were never a thing. You make it really evident that Eva is the only work by Anno you've ever seen, therefore I can't really consider this argument a serious one. Thanks for trying, I guess.
>>122039927 Not him, but that's not the point. Who cares what influenced what? As if because Eva itself was influenced by mecha, it is now somehow a lesser work than mecha it was influenced by. This argument is irrelevant to the question whether Asuka is a better character than others. Also >I got insulted We're on 4chan. Nobody cares. You're supposed to have a tough skin here.
I watched this high school sports movie on FXM where this white guy betrays everyone on his whole entire team. I tuned in a little after the beginning and I thought it was a very engaging sports/teenage drama film because I thought it really hit close with home with all the high school drama I've seen in real life and anime.
I later found out that it was based on Othello by Shakespeare. I seriously thought it was a based on a true story.
Is there anything like that in anime? I heard the count of monte cristo was pretty good
>>122043189 >poor family man gets diagnosed with cancer >becomes a criminal to support his family and to pay for cancer treatment >manages to get enough money to pay for everything and give his family the life they deserve >becomes corrupted by the power it gives him >his family hates him and wants nothing to do with him
the whole point is that sure he got what he wanted, but at what price?
>>122022266 >>122021870 The Grail isn't omnipotent because it needs a "plan". In the case Kerry, who had spent his whole life using utilitarianism to justify and decide how he was going to help the world, the only plan he could really offer is "save the many at the expense of the few."
Now, this means that pure or corrupted Grail, someone's going to suffer for this plan to work. However, where Angra Maniyu comes in is its ability to interpret this basic belief of "Save the many at the expense of the few" to allow it to kill a massive proportion of humanity or inflict curses on all of it. Hell, if it just interpreted his method as "killing" it would have saved Earth by killing all humans.
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