>>122411101 But they aren't forced to be magical girls, this is what happens when you don't read the user agreement form or even ask for it. If you get something as amazing as a wish there is going to be a catch.
Human morals don't apply to aliens. A good alien doesn't give a fuck what humans think. Or, a good friendly alien tries to fit in, despite their quirks. This doesn't hold true for freaks like goths and emos, but for real aliens, it's fact.
>>122410776 >From humanity's perspective he is evil. He may be evil by humahity's perspective, but he is not evil by DnD definition of evil. Look up terminilogy before posting in DnD threads, fucktard.
>>122410142 because they does terrible things, but the whole 'what alignment' thing doesn't really matter in regards to incubators. They are true neutral like your OP states, it's a hivemind with no emotions and whose will is probably programmed into their DNA. They're just doing what their instincts tell them to do.
>hurr kyubey is evil because girls suffer after a contract Who thought that he will stop all the suffering and sadness they will experience? He only fulfills your any dream and you have to fight for him in the exchange, that's all clear. MGs become witches because they fall into despair, but it's not Kyubey who causes it, it's part of being human.
>>122410142 Because people are wired to see a lack of emotional attachment as bad. If you go purely by logic, what Kyubey and his people were doing was "good", but to humans logic not tempered by reason and emotion is seen as dangerous.
>>122413995 Well to be fair it was in Kyubey's best interest that the girls fall in to despair. He doesn't actively have to push them into it as humans will naturally generate despair for themselves, but you'd be a fool if you didn't think having fall into despair is his end goal.
>>122415108 Not the the one you're replying to but here's what I found:
Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
Evil implies harming, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient or if it can be set up. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some malevolent deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.
>>122410142 Because he is a psychopath that emotionally enslaves young women with false promises and drives them into suicide, delusion, despair and self-harm. He is also impersonal and feels no guilt or attachment to his victims. He has a psychological and probably instinctive need to dominate and abuse. He rationalizes his behavior to great detail, convincing the members of his coven that they are his property, physically and emotionally. He further uses manipulation and programming to dehumanize his followers and make them loyal to him, even in the face of physical and psychological harm.
I don't think there's a judge or jury on this Earth that would be fooled by Kyubey's act for one second. If Kyubey was a human he'd get the chair.
>>122415534 Yes, but I guarantee you that most people will empathize with Homura over Kyubey. While what Homura did was certainly "evil" in the human sense, it was from understandable emotional motivations, while Kyubey's "evil" is due to purely logical motivations, so humans are more inclined to denounce it. Humans see the entire world through their emotional lens, it colors our perception of everything, so while what Kyubey did was arguably good, people will always see it as evil as his action brought about human suffering, which they empathize with and detest, while Homura's actions were purely selfish, she's more likely to get a pass for it from some because they can understand the emotions that would lead one to such actions.
>>122416138 >Because he is a psychopath that emotionally enslaves young women with false promises and drives them into suicide, delusion, despair and self-harm. He doesn't actually give anyone false promises. Kyubey always grants your wish, it's not his fault that you didn't think about the consequences of said wish, it's the djinn's curse. >He is also impersonal and feels no guilt or attachment to his victims. He has a psychological and probably instinctive need to dominate and abuse. He doesn't feel anything, it's not like he's causing pain to these girls because he gets some sick thrill out of it. It's for the survival of the universe and as far as he and the rest of the universe are concerned, the emotional suffering of a few girls is a bargain price for continued existence, especially since they don't understand this whole emotion nonsense in the first place. I think you're assigning characteristics to a character that does not and can not have them due to your personal disgust with their actions.
>>122413500 DnD alignment system is shit though and only works in specific cases like in DnD (obviously) where conscious beings who represent the according alignment exist serving as the beacon and thus allowing to dismiss the "muh point of view" arguments. That doesn't work in other settings. And they overhauled it in the latest edition anyways (making it even more shit though).
>>122416315 >it's not his fault that you didn't think about the consequences of said wish It kinda is given how incredibly misleading he is about the whole thing. He deliberately feeds them evasive answers and half-truths because he knows the truth would mean no one would contract. He's a salesman first and foremost, and he's pretty good at it.
>>122416705 Even if you are the most logical course of action would be to sacrifice your planet for the good of the many, this would also be the "correct" thing to do from a moral standpoint. Humans would never accept that though because we are hardwired to survive at all costs, and we have an emotional attachment to out kin and home to ensure their survival.
>>122416783 Depends on your morals. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting your species and everyone you know to stay alive versus the natural end of the universe happening an unimaginably long time in the future.
>>122416914 It is that simple, you're only concerned about the time because, compared to the universe, humans have extremely short lifespans. To a being that's immortal, which do you think is the more pressing issue?
>>122416982 That's fucking great for immortal beings, some of us have more immediate things to worry about. You realize by this logic, he's not going to stop at Earth? If he has to keep the universe running FOREVER (a long time!), there's no reason that he won't be willing to blow up more planets if necessary. How many dead civilizations are acceptable? At what point are you just killing the inhabitants of the universe to save the universe? Who's left? Who gave them the right to make that kind of decision? For all we know they're the only ones who benefit.
>>122416964 I don't see anything wrong with it either but that's because I'm human, I have a vested interest in our species survival even if I don't actively contribute to it. However, it is generally seen as moral for individuals or small groups to sacrifice themselves for the good of the many, though only willingly in the case of humans. You see this throughout human culture, with everything from Heroes of myth, to soldier, to you local fireman, they are often venerated because they sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
>>122417019 Why should you care about any one's well being but your own, and on the flip side of things, why should said being care about what you want?
>>122417094 >Why should you care about any one's well being but your own We don't exist in a vacuum. Our actions impact others on this planet. We also have a natural tendency to empathise with other humans that we are "close" to.
>why should said being care about what you want? It probably wouldn't and I'm not saying it inherently should.
>>122416253 A lot of cult and coven leaders irl had the exact same goal and were convinced they were doing the right thing. Incidentally, they also targeted a lot of young women with emotional problems. If she herself says it's ok, what kind of incubator would he be if he argued?
>>122416315 Kyubei plz. How can you even use a computer with no opposable thumbs.
>>122417094 >Why should you care about any one's well being but your own, and on the flip side of things, why should said being care about what you want? What? one does not care about immortal beings because you know they are...immortals! and here it is literally costing lives.
Oh and stop that thing of sacrificing the less for a greater good.
>>122412696 I know I'm thinking from a human perspective, but I think all species should strive for a democratic universe. The incubators are trying to force a certain outcome, they used trickery from the very beginning, and that is immoral on my compass at least.
>>122416783 Fuck you. I'll sacrifice the rest of the universe if it means that I can keep on living. The most logical course of action is self-preservation. What QB also did, what is really rarely mentioned is how he keeps humanity far, far below his level, so they couldn't possibly become a threat to incubator society.
>>122417471 >they used trickery He literally said that he would have opened his mouth if asked. The whole, "oh no you tricked us you monster" is elementary. First thing any person with brains would ask would be, "whats the catch?'"
>>122410142 Kyubei is evil, His goal seems honorable in that he's trying to stave off the heat death of the universe, but he is doing it by using a sentient species as "fuel" to prevent it from happening.
He is also using deception, because he gives something to a person for a price, but never tells them the price of the thing.
If people in real life get in trouble for this because it is unethical business, and you're offering this contract to those too young to understand and legally sign a contract, then yes, you are evil.
>>122417898 Did I say Homura was not evil for doing this? No. The response was to kyubei. Homura was wrong, as well, but again, since she's still underage, more can be forgiven because her sense of rigfht and wrong, the fact that she is too young to live in a house unsupervised, and allowing the fact that she too was tricked into this contract means that her efforts are marginally less evil than kyubei's.
Now that your distraction has been dealt with, can you get back to talking about kyubei, and how their plan is stupid and evil for exploiting children?
>>122411152 People keep saying "they didn't read the user agreement" but Kyubey didn't hand out a contract with the phrase "Oh by the way you will inevitably become a witch" on it. He tells them what he wants them to hear and kept the rest to himself.
>>122416315 >He doesn't feel anything He has enough brains to make good persusasion. So he has enough brains to realize he is causing serious harm for no reason. Evil is not about getting a boner, its about how meaningless you can do it.
>>122417991 This is all wrong. Consider that the only flaw Kyubey held was that he wanted to enslave people for the good of the universe, when Madoka proved cooperation is better.
Homura wasn't tricked, she made her wish selfishly and proceeded to use those around her as tools to control Madoka to fulfill her inhuman desire for attention. As a demon, she knowingly damned the universe and fucked heaven beyond repair, literally burning the souls in it as fuel for her universe of brainwashed puppets. She isn't a child, she's a monster.
>>122418052 You can't say Kyubey is evil when he was painted as such by Homura. Why did Kyouko die? Because she let Kyubey manipulate her and did nothing to help ease her mind, because Kyouko is a tool to be used and discarded once Madoka is hers. Homura has much less empathy than Kyubey ever did.
>>122410142 It's less that Kyubey is evil, and more that the laws of the universe are evil. Kyubey is not exactly your friend, but he's still operating on lawful rationality. When those laws are changed after Madoka's wish, Kyubey operates on those laws instead. He appears to actually have a good relation with Homura in that universe, unlike the previous worlds.
Shouldn't it be chaotic neutral? Going all the way to a remote planet, treat girls like cattle and don't really care if the whole planet gets destroyed in the process. Yes it's to ensure a greater good but they are not being exactly neutral about it.
>>122420008 There were limits to what they could wish for based on how much power they could generate. Most had very small and simple wishes so not much power was needed, madoka could only make her wish to become god because homu's shenanigans
>>122420313 It's not good in the sense they're not monks. But as a superior race who's trying to stop the death of the universe they weren't bad either. While they don't have respect for life it's not like they were doing it for the sake of being evil, it all served a higher purpose.
>>122418085 I've tried explaining this to several people and only the person that really did have experience with the occult figured out what I was talking about. Evil isn't just causing suffering to another person, it's about making the suffering meaningless. Because that, in turn, makes them meaningless.
>>122420469 Maybe I'm wrong but isn't lawful/chaotic about the way you go at things rather than the motive? They didn't explain properly things to beings that could understand them/they could talk to and that weren't against their beliefs and end up putting Earth in danger even to the point of destruction.
Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.
Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.
Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to follow rules nor a compulsion to rebel. They are honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others if it suits him/her.
>>122422009 I give you 3/10 because you got 3 responses out of me.
On the off chance you're not a troll can you explain why we have fiction full of autonomous thinking machines, spaceships with warp drives, teleports and other things we can only imagine now? Do you think that all the authors are secret [whatever_science_applies] Nobel price holders or maybe they just make that shit up?
>>122424057 Not really. Homu fucked up when she talked about previous loops at the end of Ep 12 and he became interested in much easier energy gathering and explanation for LoC. Nothing out of character or against his motivation.
>>122417809 >First thing any person with brains would ask would be, "whats the catch?'" And he'd say with a straight :3 face that there's none, just fighting witches. You know, he doesn't understand that whole deal with souls and emotions.
>>122424392 do you think he lies when he says he doesn't understand emotions? if no, then we have grounds to understand why he doesn't know what is important (emotionally) for people. unless people tell him straight to his face what they want, what they feel, he doesn't get it, and even when he is told, he just accepts it, rather than understands the underlying reasons.
he doesn't understand what is "important" for them to know because he only functions on logic
>>122424903 >His main purpose of this is preventing the heat death of the universe because it directly benefits his own species seeing as that's one of the few things that would mean the end to them. they are but one of many races across the universe that his work is saving.
>If humans were advanced and we sacrificed an entire planet of less advanced aliens to push off the heat death of the universe would this really be ethical? on a smaller scale, we have enslaved species to slaughter and harvest for our own benefit, it is no different, just on a different scale.
self preservation is not evil in itself, it's in how you do it. if you think one planet is worth the entire universe, you may be able to step up to evil
>>122425167 Not him but what about the Wraith verse? QB didn't say it's impossible now to get enough juice so basically he sacrifices little girls/planet for fast profit while he probably could get his juice without causing so much harm.
>>122425496 >mami and kyoko don't even tell them anything that they know To be fair Mami, as alone and longing for company as she is does a pretty good job at that. Explains and shows what they have to do as MGs and warns about the dangers. Of course she's not exactly aware of the whole truth too so there's that.
>>122425743 if we're going by the "lie by omission" thing, the little truths that she knows, like the fact the body is nothing but a puppet for the soul gem are still fucking important. if humans fail to understand what is important for humans to know about becoming a MG, how is a hivemind emotionless bastard supposed to?
Kyubey is definitely Lawful Good: He always asks for permission and never turns a girl into a magical girl against her will. He never manipulates a magical girl so that her death is meaningless. He wants to save the universe. And thanks to him, humans aren't still living in caves.
I think people on /a/ are just too biased in favor of the cute girls instead of feeling sorry for Kyubey, who has to babysit some tweens all day every day.
>>122425152 So why should he just roll with it because they find it important? He decides not to lie so he can be fair, but then they just stretch how much he should limit himself with some random goalpost that they find "important"?
>>122425959 >like the fact the body is nothing but a puppet for the soul gem are still fucking important Did you watch the series? Because Kyubey explicitly says that Mami never knew about a MG's soul being housed in the soul gem.
>>122426375 >Homu keeps fighting till the end and earns a well-deserved rest >QB gets in the way of death and ascending to Heaven to make her suffer more >he's totally ok guys But wait, there's more! He tries to also force all future magical girls to end in despair rather than in cleansing. And not to save the universe either - only to make things quicker and save himself some work! In other words, QB's objectively a piece of shit.
>>122426516 Kyubey helped human progress and witches are much cleaner system for collecting emotional energy than wraiths. Kyubey wants to save the universe and help humanity reach the stars. Kyubey is objectively Lawful Good.
You guys get too caught up in the magical girls getting depressed and dying and shit. It doesn't matter how horrible it may seem, they volunteered for the job, they didn't ask questions, and they worry about the most pointless shit. The only thing qb is guilty of is bad combat designs by putting the soul in a place that can easily be lost.
>>122426976 >making sure that there are stars to reach is his end of the bargain There are stars to reach for whom? The Earth is going BOOM in that imeline in a few days. Also there would be stars anyway. Universe is not going to end in next million years and if we're not off the planet by then we might as well go extinct.
>>122427183 Lawful Neutral. All he cares about is his end objective and if that means all of humanity is going to be killed be Kriemhild Gretchen before they reach the stars then he doesn't care. No Good character would let a sentient species die out like that.
>>122427502 >Not even Madoka resented Kyubey for what he did Not him but you should rewatch ep.9 - 10. Madoka fixed his gathering scheme and made it more humane so she might have acknowledge the necessity but didn't agree with his way to do it.
>>122427951 good is relative and depends entirely on your ethical values. If you're taking a utilitarian approach, you wouldn't want people to die, but if that's the only way to serve the greater good then you have to do it. Imagine 2 options, you could not harm humans and let everyone (including humans) die, or you could kill off 1 species to save the universe. Which is the "good" choice?
>>122427895 Yes? She didn't resent him. She, however, wants to personally kill Homura for her actual betrayal.
>>122428030 Hurting Homura isn't even wrong. She deserved it, and didn't deserve to be saved.
>>122428051 In Homura's perverted mind. Madoka being congratulatory doesn't equate to friendship. She's altruistic, not scum that would like Homura. I guarentee you Madoka didn't speak to her again after that.
Series Kyuubei was neither good or evil, more like a force of nature. Rebellion Kyuubei comes off as evil, although that plot point was pretty contrived.
I've hardly watched any anime in the last three years, anything similar come out in the mean time? As successful as this show was, there's bound to be interesting imitators by now, right? Downloading Yuuki Yuuna currently.
>>122428355 >haven't made any arguments Seriously? That's why I asked for reading comprehension. Here, I'll even spoonfeed>>122427008 >Saving the universe might be noble, but "I wanna do it quickeeer" isn't >>122426516 >He tries to also force all future magical girls to end in despair rather than in cleansing. And not to save the universe either - only to make things quicker and save himself some work!
Also getting in the way of someone's death wouldn't have been ever ok even if it wasn't Homura. Death is the ultimate solace and he even fails to respect something so basic
>>122428215 >She didn't resent him. Ok, I'm done here. Seriously, go rewatch the part where QB and Madoka talk (second movie somewhere about 59 minutes mark), look at her reaction. Then watch the part where she asks Homu to save her from him and his tricks (~47 minutes into movie 2).
>>122428501 It's in a pre-Rebellion interview. The same one where they said that Madoka never loved Homura and only took pity in her. You can find them by browsing homuhater's headcannon. Now can you stop taking the bait?
>>122428987 Or they could, you know, spend more time gathering instead? Since in the other universe they had actually reached the quota, it means that even with the small cubes, it should be enough for the quota if they stay there till the first heat death estimate
>>122429376 who knows how the universe truly works, dimensions may be closer than we may imagine. especially with data that flies around the internet. we may even be talking to beings from different dimensions without even knowing it
>>122429965 >>122429923 Government and employers support them so people will work for them and not rebel. QB's race has nothing to fear from humans, and there will always be another girl wanting to become a magical girl for a free wish. He has no reason to listen to their needs beyond what he absolutely needs for stopping the death of the universe.
>>122430051 or maybe your mind doesn't have the ability to wrap around the fact that more powerful beings hold power over the weaker in every interaction, even if it takes place in the weaker's home turf
>>122430235 To be fair, it was established that Kyubey wasn't evil, Homura was and painted him to appear malicious. Kyubey only had one wrong idea and learned his lesson before Homura enslaved him and killed Madoka's heaven.
>>122430235 the original argument is this >It's still the humans who do the work, so you gotta abide by their rules. Even QB recognised that much
the assumption that QB is evil is the fact that he doesn't "play buy the rules" except this assumes that QB and humans are equal. they are not. QB is part of a hive mind that spans the universe. the universe's laws trump the laws of earth. he does not have to follow quaint traditions of a backwater planet
>>122430582 They can just decide to not become magical girls. If it's just about abusing them, of course their law triumphs, but if he wants humans to actually go out of their way to act to help him, it has to be on their terms. Of course, he can just take the middle road and manipulate them
>>122430826 >it has to be on their terms. Of course, he can just take the middle road and manipulate them do you really think that he appeared to mami at that specific time, at that specific place, to make an agreement "on her terms"? if you do it right, people will believe that they made decisions on their own terms
Wow, I can't fucking wait for homufags to shitpost. AGAIN. Jesus Christ those a arrogant fucks think they're so fucking tough by throwing characters' personalities away to justify their fapfiction, what a load of shit.
>>122431043 It might be manipulative and note entirely honest, but he's not evil for doing it. It still helps them out. For example he didn't cause mami to get into an accident, but being there to save her resulted in both of them getting what they want, she got to live, he got a magical girl. Just because she didn't get the full debriefing doesn't mean it wasn't a fair trade.
>>122431178 >still doing explicitly what will result in more MadoHomu posted Insatible. This is not what the thread is for, you know? I can't just do an image dump. If you want to see mdhm so much, go to pixiv
>>122431332 THis is so ridiculously far from the original point... Look, the idea is that humans have the choice to not help him out. However, so little about them know that QB exists, much less that he's not exactly kind to the liches, that creating things like syndicates for the rights of liches and informing potential girls that they should use their right to refuse to get better working conditions is impossible. So QB is using information control to force them to not search their rights. And that's evil
>>122431547 All the tricks he pulled could have beenavoided if Homura had empathy. Because she didn't, they kept being placed in horrible situations where Kyubey could maximize his profits. Everything is Homura's fault for being a shit. A friendless, unloved shit.
>>122431596 Madoka canonically hates Homura with endless fury. There, now leave.
>>122431961 Spoonfeeding again.... It's about how he attempts to cause large amount of additional suffering in Rebellion with the only reason being wanting to be quicker about energy collection, which is incredibly silly and no longer has anything to do with saving the universe, but is rather just to save his personal time.
>>122431820 Typical incubator-apologist argument. It was already established that the incubators were the only race that survived to see the effects of heat death, and thus traveled back in time in order to harvest energy. >Benefit So it's automatically not evil that they've interfered, for the worst, the lives of independent civilizations in order to postpone the heat death? The fuck you talking about?
>>122432524 >human law God you're dense; apparently you don't know about the Geneva convention either. Just because a country has the ability to colonize or even interfere in foreign affairs doesn't mean they have the moral right to, fucking idiot.
Those who abuse their power and endanger others in order to survive are the weak ones, since they're afraid of their demise, afraid of competition, afraid in general. Actual powerful beings are compassionate, like Madoka. You'll realize this after you grow out of your retarded line of thinking.
Thread replies: 305 Thread images: 49
Thread DB ID: 45637
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.
This is a 4chan archive - all of the content originated from them. If you need IP information for a Poster - you need to contact them. This website shows only archived content.
If a post contains personal/copyrighted/illegal content you can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org with that post and thread number and it will be removed as soon as possible.