Well, here we are once again with Ufotable adapting a Type Moon work. If it sells, why stop doing it; right? I mean have you seen how all related series sold? From the atrocious older version made by DEEN, to its prequel Fate/Zero, to its loli fan service spin-off Fate/Kaleid; this franchise is a goldmine.
With that said, you need to be aware of what exactly you are getting yourself into in case you don’t already know. The Fate franchise is affiliated with the most famous porn game of all times, and has a ridiculous amount of fans who defend it to the death. For example, if one of them reads the previous sentence, he will go apeshit and explain in a wall of text how it is not a porn game; it’s a visual novel, the ultimate masterpiece of storytelling, with exceptional writing, amazing characters, complicating terminology, and intellectual battles. My only reply to such people would be a simple question: How many good books have you read in your life, and how many games have you played that are not visual novels? 95% chance, his reply will be zero.
As it happens with all fandoms, they are filled with fanatics who are inflating whatever is going on in the subject at hand, and the Fate porn game is not an exception. And yes, it has sex scenes, it has fan service, it has harem, it’s a porn game; you can stop trying to call it otherwise. I admit that it tried a hell of a lot more to be something better than that, but eventually succeeds only into becoming a battle shonen with fancy terminology. And as we all know, battle shonens suffer greatly from good writing.
With all that said, if you keep your expectations low, you will enjoy it as a rule of cool type of show, filled with lots of flashy battles, extremely polished visuals, and poser characters you want to cosplay as. It’s a very fun show if you see it just as a spectacle. The problem surfaces when you DON’T see it simply as a spectacle and instead try to make it seem like it’s more than that. I said you should keep your expectations low but how is that humanly possible when the anime was hyped all the way to the moon as soon as its production was announced, and how can you possibly remain calm and reserved about it when it got an average score of 9/10 before it even began to air. I am not kidding you; it was placed instantly at the top ten highest rated anime of all times before the first episode was even out. The average dropped since then, but not significantly, and you can bet a thousand bucks how it will stay in the top 20 for a loooong time. Because that is the power of its fandom and they won’t let you speak otherwise.
Anyways, the story is very basic and simple. Seven people get a super warrior each and fight each other because there can be only one. The winner gets a wish and becomes a puela magi. What complicates this one line of a story is how the tiniest and most unimportant of events needs to be stretched out to last as much as possible, and a plot that could have ended in 2 episodes if it was pragmatic, is instead stretched to last 10 times as much. How is that possible, you may ask. Is the show mostly made up of fillers? No, but it’s instead filled with lots and lots of extra fluff to not allow the average viewer to realize he is watching something that has no progress. Here is how it keeps you distracted.
1) Infodump. Half of the whole show is people talking and explaining shit. And by explaining, I don’t simply mean they explain their strategies to the opponent or comment on everything that happens in case the viewer has his IQ lower than that of an ape. It does that too, but it is a drop in the ocean before the dreaded infodumping. Dear lord, they talk for hours about how magic works and what it can do and what are the limitations, and they use fancy words, and they explain it again, and then they go over it every time something new appears, and SHUT UP ALREADY! Why am I wasting my time looking at people walking in circles and using weird words?
See, this is part of what made the source material so famous. It’s a porn game with a complicated terminology you can talk about for hours that makes you look smart and not like a ronery who faps to cartoons. And by the end of the day none of all that matters because IT’S MAGIC; IT MAKES NO SENSE. Plus, even if it was science that for some reason the porn game managed to present it in a completely realistic manner, it would still not mean anything, since it still works any way the writer wants it to work. Really, it’s as random as it gets. One person needs to train for a decade, be fully aware of how magic works, and chant for a whole minute for something magical to take place (that would be Rin), and another person casts commands, summons super warriors, and avoids death rays without having a clue of what the fart is going on (that would be Shiro).
2) Fooling around. Half of the other show is about the characters not doing what they are supposed to be doing. I mean, can you imagine how completely retarded it feels to have a person who really wants to win in this death tournament, saving the life of another contestant, explaining all it needs for him to survive in this war, and then proceed into trying to kill him, thus rendering all that she did so far to be completely pointless? Or do you know how eye-rolling it is for another person to let her enemies escape because it was a fun game and wants to play more? Or a super warrior not killing an enemy because she was his ADOPTED SISTER FROM A PAST LIFE. I am not kidding you, none of the characters take their roles seriously; they are in a death tournament where it is “kill or be killed” and treat everything as if it’s an amusement park.
Now I am very aware of how the fanboys excuse all that. How could we get to know the characters if they would be killed right away and the show would be over in a few episodes? That’s impossible to happen if the show made sense. After all, it’s dumb entertainment for shonentards, so it’s ok to... WHOOPS! I meant sophisticated storytelling for mature people such as myself; there is nothing wrong with this anime; it’s perfect.
Ok, you are not convincing me, it’s still silly. There is so much plot armour for the protagonist, and so much plot convenience when not killing people even when they should normally do, to the point I no longer care about the characters because their conflict feels staged. I also can’t see this show as dumb action because they keep trying to trick me (and fail) into believing it is far more than just that. It falls right into the pretentious territory, a thing which I happen to hate because it wants to make the viewer over-think stuff and trick him to believe he is smart for doing that.
I wonder how hard does this illusion break once you realize that you get unforgettable quotes such as “people die when they are killed” coming from a guy who cheats death three times per episode because he is a bland shonen protagonist. I also wonder how hard is it to realize there are no consequences in a story where they keep telling you a wish can change the whole world, when the world is otherwise completely autistic to this war and its participants. Yes, they keep saying that they cover it up but just what is there to cover when they cause a dozen explosions per episode and none in the city sees or hears the slightest thing. It’s as if the characters all suffer from chuunibyou and the battles take place only in their childish minds, with the adults walking by and shaking their heads upon seeing them doing all that make-belief nonsense.
So down to it, what is this show exactly? It’s a silly fighting shonen with very good production values that pretends to be intelligent by overcomplicating everything. It’s fun if you still like Naruto but not if you are past the age when you still like teenagers with superpowers and unforgettable quotes such as “the archer class is made of archers”.
I think that it's fair to say that a reasonable person would have enough information from all that to know how Nasu approaches characters and narratives, and what sort of themes he likes to explore. I don't care for his ideas, I think they're extremely childish, and his characterizations are immature try-hard attempts at exploring serious themes.
Copy-pasta. Really fucking poor bait.
I don't really like the anime adaptation though, and UBW needs to be in context after Fate route. That's it's seen by some a sequel to Fate/Zero drives me a bit mad.
>HOLY SHIT, THIS IS AMAZING, EVERYONE COME OVER HERE AND CHECK IT OUT ITS INCREDIBLE. This guy has an opinion.....Holy fuck why does everyone care so much about their own opinion of a show. My friend, look at it this way. You obviously don't like this anime. There is nothing wrong with not liking an anime, its fully understandable and something that cannot be changed. However, plenty of other people love the shit out of it (me included), that is also something that cannot be changed.
Because in my mind it's going to be compared to F/SN. It has worse characters, worse discussion on high level themes, and following up Fate/Stay Night with Kiritsugu feels really fucking cheap. I can only think of one fight scene I liked.
>not reading Fate for based husbundos.
It would be a ThatAnimeSnob's copypasta.
F/SN as a whole is a soft 7/10.
Maybe falling for it, maybe not.
I'm an avid reader and videogame player outside of visual novels, yes, yet I still enjoyed the F/SN franchise more than almost any other work. Why? Mainly because I like the setting see/read more of them when given the chance. They are relatively general reasons that could be applied to many other kinds of work, but that doesn't mean I've not got more niche reasons to go along with them, which I guess a lot of people can relate to, but for the sake of simplicity let's leave it at that.
Calling it a porn game is nothing but preposterous; it has got sex scenes, but the game isn't based around those. They were only added back in the day to attract more possible buyers, the story could work just fine without them (see PS Vita version.) It's also technically not a harem, since the relationship associated to each heroine is shut inside each route, as they are completely different stories.
The infodumps about the functioning of magic and other themes are necessary. That's what differenciates it from its animated counterparts, and one can tell by the amount of persons asking otherwise obvious questions had they read through it all. Also, Nasu is very accustomed to the use of purple prose, delivering us the thoughts of the main character in every moment as they cross his mind, for instance. It's a matter of choice of style, and I enjoy it.
Shirou revolves around being a very special case of a magus with very particular talents and inner workings, he's not comparable to a formal magus like Tohsaka. His various kinds of "plot armour" are highly foreshadowed on and also happen within a determinated context. Taking all the choices the game presents to us into account, he could be dead in pretty much every single dangerous situation; it's also a conglomerate of fortunate events and decisions.
Every example listed there as "eye-rolling" attitude and other assumptions about the characters' behaviour are either taken wrong from the start or makes sense. Makes me wonder if whoever wrote that really took the time to read it, as neither is Illya's goal to murder everyone and winning the war after meeting Shirou nor is Archer's decision to "not kill" someone that bland, as he doesn't even care about the war itself at all.
Everything mentioned about "tricking you into thinking" and "pretentious" is foolish. What part of trying to think stuff over is bad, or what does it make the work not qualitative of expending any extra minute on it exactly? As you may be aware, the creative process towards building a story is nothing to be taken lightly. Any piece of work is given tons of dedication, thought and motivation. Trying to read between the lines and/or trying to read what's on the author's mind is something great to do. Quoting a certain visual novel's catchphrase, "Without love, it cannot be seen."
>My only reply to such people would be a simple question: How many good books have you read in your life, and how many games have you played that are not visual novels? 95% chance, his reply will be zero.
Haha, joke's on you, I have also read the literary maserpiece known as Porry Gatter and the Stoned Philosopher, and I can confirm that Nasu is officially cool as ice, I guarantee it!
Seriously though, it's such a retarded point. Even if it weren't generalising horrendously and assuming stuff about people without asking them, it's just a retarded point.
Whether something is porn or not has got literally no relation to what whose like it have read besides it.
Also (translation of) Nasu is at least just as well written as (translation of) Plato, anyway. Sometimes the actual quality of writing is not that important.
>using the term "fandom" unironically
>that wall of text
>Sometimes the actual quality of writing is not that important
When you read something that is like 3000+ pages worth of text you can damn be sure that the quality of writing is important
>writing a short essay just to justify your hate of something
Something's wrong with you OP. You're not forced to like it. You're not forced to read Type moon threads for that matter, either.
Well, it is a good point; Plato's Dialogues are usually shorter... I think (I haven't read his longer pieces yet, so can't say for sure). My point was that not everybody who is considered a classic now had such a mastery of writing either.
Though I guess, I haven't read him in original anyway, so this point probably doesn't stand.
To be fair, I actually kinda like Nasu's style for whatever reason. Maybe it's because English is not my first language, but I thought his style really suited Tsukihime well, for example. And even in Fate I enjoyed it thoroughly.
It's a copypasta.
>The Fate franchise is affiliated with the most famous porn game of all times
It's not though.
TM fans tend to overrate the popularity of Fate in general, it's not even close to some of the titles that were released during the 90's and sold millions.
FSN as a whole is a good VN that was released at a good time, I pretty much never met anyone who actually know japanese and play a lot of VNs call it the best they did but anyone who consider it shit is just trolling
Fate/Stay Night 2012 Realta Nua PC version should be what you gun for first.
Download, read the readmes, the order of routes is Fate -> UBW -> HF.
Oh, but this chart is a bit outdated.
Hollow Ataraxia is now fully translated, no problems with it.
UBW by ufotable is apparently decent; I haven't watched it personally. I think it would be best to read the VN anyway, though, since it's unlikely anime has managed to translate everything into another medium.
It's more of a resources reference than a guide; it doesn't recommend the order and doesn't give hints on the best way to read the novels.
I should have mentioned it too, though. It slipped my mind.
Tsukihime is a doujin visual novel, released in December 2000 by TYPE-MOON. It tells the story of Tohno Shiki, who since a life-threatening accident in his youth is cursed with the ability to see “lines” on everything around him. Lines along which objects can easily be cut.
Having lived with foster parents for seven years, Shiki is recalled to the household of his family. He had lost all contact with his family over this entire period, making it difficult for him to get used to the new situation. As he gradually learns more about his past, the situation becomes more and more unfamiliar and dangerous.
—-The one who obtains the Holy Grail will have any wish come true.
The Holy Grail War.
A great ritual that materializes the greatest holy artifact, the Holy Grail.
There are two conditions to participate in this ritual.
To be a magus, and to be a “Master” chosen by the Holy Grail.
(The experience as a magus is not questioned if one has the aptitude)
There are seven chosen Masters, and seven classes of Servants.
There is only one Holy Grail.
If you wish for a miracle.
Prove that you are the strongest with your powers.
How much of the TM wikia is bullshit? it's obviously edited and written from different people and I don't know if all of it is credible. Feels like a fanfic at times.
An interesting question: if the ritual was successful, who would claim the Third Magic?
Would it be the winner or somebody from the Three Families or whatever bum happens to crawl into the hole in the sky?
What exactly was everyone supposed to do once the route is open?
Do I need to watch/read anything else in the franchise to understand the new UBW anime?
some anons last night were looking for F/HA sprites. reposting because no one reads the archive.
>you can extract the assets yourself.
>download Crass from the TLwiki: http://tlwiki.org/index.php?title=File:Crass-0.4.14.0.bin.7z
>use cxdec=FHA parameter to extract
i uploaded raw, unsorted bitmaps from said extract here:
for filthy secondaries.
You need the knowledge the Einzberns have to get it. It's something exclusive to the Fuyuki Grail System, and which requires the prior knowledge from the Einzberns once the gate is opened. For anyone else, it's just a gate to [ ] that'll kill you because the second you open it, a Guardian will step out from the other side and obliterate you before you can step inside.
Well, there are ways around it, like how Shiroumine uses his Skeleton Key plus First Folio to hack into Justeaze. If you do something like that you can get Third access without being an Einzbern, but nobody in FSN or FZ has the ability to do that.
If it doesn't have a footnote, it's probably fanon. Just trust nothing. McJon and Seika's docs are much better info sources. The French TM wiki is also surprisingly good. The Japanese TM wiki is even worse than the English one though, christ it's bad.
Can't you just download all this shit from the beasts lair wiki, that's where I got mine.
In the original VN, you only read UBW after you finished the first route, Fate.
With the adaptation, I seriously have no idea. I haven't watched it yet.
For whatever it's worth, Fate/Stay Night in general can be read without any prior knowledge.
Why is she angry? Not enough worms in her breakfast? Zouken getting soft.
The counter force can't react at all once the way is open. The counter force only reacts to people trying to open the gate (Nasu hinted that it guided Shirou and company a tiny bit). Counter Guardians are even further from this idea, they only respond to threats to all of humanity.
The reason people never come back from the root is unknown. Touko just says that nobody has ever come back as an absolute rule.
Mahoyo does has some sort of thing that judges whether you're worthy when you do find the way, but it's unrelated to the counter force as far as we know. It might be specific to the 5th magic too.
Magi will take any chance they have to reach [ ], even if the odds are as close to zero as possible. It doesn't help that the Tohsakas don't really know about how it all actually works and that Zolgen's gone senile and obsessed with immortality and his cup waifu. People who aren't members of the three families get lured in by the premise of "you'll get your wish granted, we promise", but the war's always just a sham.
If you don't use the power to punch a hole to [ ] and decide to actually use it on a normal wish, it's just a simple sacrificial ritual, a typical ritual at a grander scale, so it can only actualize "miracles" that are mundane. That's the limit of artificial miracles, so your wish can't be anything too big because the ritual's so mundane.
Meanwhile you've got Moon Cell with its world-altering bullshit by making it an administrator instead of an overseer. It can make every girl on earth your imouto. That's a canon example of a Moon Cell-grantable wish.
What? I'm not talking about Counter Guardians, just Guardians.
The reason people don't come back from the Root is that they dissolve into it. That's why Magicians are failures, and why Araya's Stillness gave him a nonzero chance of sticking around in some form or fashion. Apparently Buddhas reached [ ] though, so that's weird, but we can chalk it up to Moon Cell shenanigans.
Alaya-tan following Aoko around in Mahoyo is because Magicians are enemies of the World. We've known that for a long time. The World hates Magicians.
>What? I'm not talking about Counter Guardians, just Guardians.
Then I have no idea what you're referring to. The root doesn't defend itself (unless that thing is part of the root) and the counter force defends itself through manipulated humans.
Nothing "steps out and obliterates" whoever opens the gate (again except maybe that red thing which may never be explained).
No it doesn't.
I read only Tsukihime from these three, and did it postfactum. I still understood everything just fine. It helps if you read these things, but it's not important, since FSN is supposed to be kinda standalone.
And yes, I will read through KnK and Melty Blood later, after I finish KT.
Alright, I think I figured it out.
Archer seems to know exactly who Saber is and why she's fighting, based on the fact that last episode he told Shirou that Saber is probably the only Servant who joined the War out of her own will.
He appears to be familiar with the Holy Grail since he dismissed it as a "malevolent treasure chest". Of Arthur's knights, three managed to attain the Grail - Galahad, Bors, and Percival.
He dismisses Shirou's idea of fighting only for others as being hypocrisy. Lancelot criticised Saber for the same thing in Zero.
He also hesitated and reacted visibly when he first fought Saber at the end of episode 0, reinforcing the possibility that he recognized either her or at least some aspect of her.
He has Caladbolg, which is also known as Caledfwlch in Welsh, Calesvol in Cornish, and ultimately Excalibur in the Matter of Britain.
And finally we see him here on the same hill on a battlefield that Saber was on in the past.
So the possibility is either that Archer is one of the Knights of the Round Table (unlikely because Saber would recognize him like she recognized Lancelot), or that he is actually King Arthur, who attained the Holy Grail, and, like Saber plans to do, wished that he would not become King of Britain and someone else would instead. This changed history so that instead of him, a girl called Artoria became King of Britain, but made the same mistakes, leading to the current timeline in which King Arthur is a girl.
This post is relevant because it comes from the same guy who made the pasta http://www.reddit.com/user/TheAnimeSnob
It's a really vague hint.
Fate/Complete Material III
>Q: It's thought that Sakura had become "a threat to humanity" in the Sakura route, but was the human Counter Force in action at this time?
>A: It hadn't occurred at that stage yet. ....On the other hand, whether or not the Counter Force moved could turn into one of those endless arguments...
The Red Shadow? That's just Alaya, nothing to do with [ ]. She just chases Magicians and looks scary.
Also technically [ ] does defend itself passively, in culling all the fetuses with an origin of [ ]. Some slip through the cracks though, like Void Shiki and Manaka-chan.
Counter Guardians are the deterrent, Guardians are the broader category for any less-deified Heroic Spirit. They're reactive either way, but the World will still rebel against anyone opening a gate because Enemy of the World.
Also didn't put this in my last reply because I was looking through Mahoyo stuff for it, but here
>Aoko: I mean that no one touching the Root has ever come back. On a global scale. You touch it, you cease to exist on the spot. The very moment the likes of a human soul touches it, it’ll go back to “where it came from" or be absorbed into the Root, or something.
It wouldn't, though. It'd fuck up, it's only got a trillion units of prana and a bunch of curses.
Unless humanity acknowledged that it wanted to die, so Alaya doesn't get in the way, Gaia doesn't see it as a threat, so it doesn't get in the way, Atlas doesn't bother with it, so their weapons don't get in the way, and so on, it wouldn't get very far.
Don't forget that the total amount of prana generated by the Grail's wish is about equivalent to the backup any true Counter Guardian gets as a present from the World. Compared to modern magecraft and most of the stuff the Association does, yeah, it's good, but even the modern Association has its own disasters that could be worse, to say nothing of the fact that there's a whole branch of the Counter Force that'd probably step in once a few million (maybe hundred million) people die. Well, unless it decides that's not its issue, but in that case Gaia would do something unless Alaya decided it wasn't its issue because humanity's primal desire is to die.
Someone please show that faggot this picture.
i'll be honest, i saw "Fate/Stay Night" and didn't bother to click through to see if it included Hollow Ataraxia.
i think i spent less time extracting the assets than it would have taken to rip from the wiki by character.
hmm... but delicious png...
I don't recall the red thing being identified in story, but I'm not that stellar at reading all of Nasu's goddamn kanji messes.
I'm still pretty certain the world never takes overt action against people who open the root, though, or it should have happened in HF. Heroic spirits are called up against all-consuming threats, someone leaving the world is a personal threat rather than a threat to everyone.
What generally happens is that people are either prevented from opening the way entirely due to the counter force shutting them down, or what Aoko says there: they go through and just plain don't come back. Nothing about being nuked.
He copied and pasted that post from /a/ in the first place. His post was made on Nov 22nd 21:53:36 but it first appears in the archives on Nov 22nd 20:32:37.
Unless he posted it on /a/ before reposting it on plebbit.
Anyone else think that Archer uses Caladbolg ironically because he knows it's a mythological ancestor of Excalibur which he is unable to project?
Good reading comprehension.
>that'd probably step in once a few million (maybe hundred million) people die
Anyway that's enough nasuposting for today, leaving before this turns into power levels.
In Type-Moon, Excalibur is considered a custom made weapon with no prototype, its similarities to Caladbolg are superficial. (Excalibur Galatine, however, is based on Caladbolg's image. It also shoots a devastating wave of heat, but it's not made out of crystallized dreams or anything.)
It's also considered so busted it can't be called "Excalibur" anymore.
When conditions for forging iron improves (which is effectively a bullshit "when I feel like it") like in the moon cell's far side, he can get even closer to the point it can be called Excalibur again, but it's still degraded.
>Breaking news on the History channel! The origins of Chinese outsorcing everything are older than you might think!
>Our experts just confirmed that, astonishingly, 99% of Albion's population in the times of King Arthur were Asians with a tan! Historians are baffled by how it came to be that nowadays, 120% of the population of the same area are white Christian heterosexual males.
We have never seen Archer and Lancer fight all out, we have no idea how Lancer would react when battling inside UBW itself.
Lancer does get defeated in (one route of) Fate/EXTRA for what it is worth (very little, as Alteration of the Soul permits twisting of the servant's capabilities).
You're referring to their battle in UBW? The one where Archer was not trying to defeat Lancer at all, but merely waste time until Medea stopped scrying them so he could betray her?
er. A combination of overly busy worldbuilding and affected, utterly self-serious dialogue makes the show's more dramatic moments often verge into self-parody, with characters' discussions of honor and power levels feeling more like a price of entry than an asset. This can't be understated - unless you find dialogue like “impressive - I should have taken your head seven times, but it remains attached” either thrilling or at least funny, Fate's writing will present some roadblocks. And beyond the individual lines of dialogue, in contrast to Fate/Zero's complex narrative web and clear themes, Unlimited Blade Works is both more simplistic in plotting (it only really follows two Masters as they wander about their days) and more half-baked in ideas.
The frequent betrayals and dramatic turns can sometimes feel based more in videogame logic than anything tangible. Characters will defeat others with powers they've only just introduced, rules of mage combat will be established only to be broken, and villains will repeatedly pull that “I'll get you next time!” trick before spiriting themselves away.
And on the thematic front, the show's reflections on justice and the meaning of a hero never really rise above the identities of the characters expressing them. The treacly fantasy writing attempts to dress up personal disagreements as philosophical battles, but the ultimate effect often just comes off as needlessly obtuse or totally incoherent. We know Shirou's naive, we don't need lofty speeches from every other character expressing that fact.
− The show's fight dialogue and philosophical pretensions are a treacly mess. The narrative can sometimes feel like an excuse for the (awesome) fights.
Ultimately Fate Stay Night is a product of its time, an overly simplistic, otaku pandering product hailed as philosophical for purely superficial reasons. In contrast Fate/Zero was a well-written, deftly paced work by an actual novelist (Gen Urobuchi) with incredible characters, themes, and concepts.
>starting an opinion post about a work of fiction with "ALRIGHT WELL I NEED TO POINT OUT THAT THE FANBASE DOES THIS THING THAT I FIND FAULT WITH"
Why would you do this other than to actively present yourself antagonistically?
Flinging Gae Bolg at him is pretty much as angry as he gets, but he takes back his drive to murder immediately afterwards, yes. Cu is pretty perceptive, he realized something was up immediately after calming down from the goading.
If he were going all out, Cu would have impaled Archer immediately after Rho Aias shattered, not stared and wondered.
>uses his most powerful NP
>wasn't seriously trying to kill Archer
I love Lancer to death but come on
It probably isn't even really a hint since the majority of the people involved never wanted the Grail in the first place and would destroy it if given the opportunity and sufficient information. All four of the protagonist masters involved with the dealings of other people in the last war (Sakura, Rin, Shirou, Ilya) don't even really want to use the grail system and would go about trying to destroy it. It has a 90% chance of being dismantled, destroyed, or shut down.
Thus the Counter Force doesn't need to guide them. Sakura effectively seals the leyline from becoming distorted enough to use for a similar ritual ever again in HF True.
He wouldn't keep Gae Bolg since he's not Lancer
But you don't even need to spam Gay Bulge when you have RUNES.
Because he's right? Just look at the thread. It's a bunch of Type Moonies discussing waifus and powerlevels. That's all this shit is good for.
I don't care if you like the VN, but if you actually think it's good you can fuck right off to /v/.
Because all Type-Moon threads, especially the troll threads, become general Type-Moon discussion threads.
Because Nasufags aren't going to miss the chance to salvage a thread that could potentially be used for powerlevel debates or maybe for something decent. Nobody cares about OP anyway a couple of posts in.
They seriously need to make a story with Sakura as the Supervisor, it would be pretty awesome. I wonder if they would have Medusa as her personal secretary, with magi underestimating them for being cute girls. And Shirou being able to literally shit out swords with all the mana Sakura gives him.
Maybe even have some London exploits with Rin. I know Rin got brainwashed into living in poverty by Kotomine, but she should give up and just ask Sakura for money. Kick that pride of the older sister away and make a rational decision.
Sorry that's incorrect, try again.
The fight where Archer deliberately wasn't trying to counterattack or invoke his RM or anything other than waste time?
"As he could then". Not "cannot block Lancer's attack via any method known to him". He wasn't fighting seriously on the first night either and he's not fighting seriously here. Neither is Lancer.
>literally shit out swords
>I know Rin got brainwashed into living in poverty by Kotomine
If she did, that was some shoddy brainwashing here.
He didn't make her think poverty is good, he just made her (relatively, compared to before) poor unintentionally, and then jusified it postfactum by "well, it will be educational for her... and for me too".
Are you that delusional or just unable to read?
Nothing in that page indicates he cannot fight back either. Just that he's preferring not to be whittled down. Read the next page, how Archer rejoices that he can keep this up for quite awhile, because his only goal in this scene is to waste time until Medea stops paying attention.
By the way, let's talk about Origins.
What Origin does Arcueid have? Does she even have one? Are Origins only limited to humans, Earth or are they spread throughout entire Universe? Does Crimson Moon have an Origin?
For that matter, does the entire universe stem from the Root, or is it just Earth? I think it should be universe but I'm not sure.
Archer isn't trying to do anything but defend himself. Unless you think Kanshou and Bakuya are his only items?
Even Lancer reacts like "this guy's tough" and he knows he's not aiming to end it as fast and furious as possible.
Neither are showcasing their full ability or pushing themselves to their limit because neither of them really wants to win in this fight.
Nothing says that. The fight doesn't say "there's no possible opportunity for a counterattack with any of Archer's abilities" or "even if he projected more weapons, he could not turn the tide", etc. Archer does not show off anything but sword skill with Kanshou and Bakuya. In that regard alone he cannot fend off Lancer, but he also won't die.
I'd actually support Cuchulainn as the victor if they were to fight all-out, because Protection From Arrows allows him to neutralize Shirou's strongest method of controlling his opponent's behavior. I'm just noting that that fight was not them fighting all out in any regard.
>What Origin does Arcueid have?
>Does she even have one?
More than likely yes.
>Are Origins only limited to humans, Earth or are they spread throughout entire Universe?
Every living being with a exact point of existence should have an origin.
>Does Crimson Moon have an Origin?
>For that matter, does the entire universe stem from the Root, or is it just Earth?
Akashic Records are universal it's not limited by Planet.
There's a theory out there that King Arthur was originally based on a Roman officer in charge of a detachment of Kazakh mercenaries or a Kazakh himself, so there is a possibility that he is Asian in appearance.
(I realize the Kazakh race only coalesced into it's identifiable form in the fifteenth century, but these mercenaries were from a precursor ethnic group that ranged from western China to Dacia)
Well let's see
>Lancer moves faster than Archer can see
>Archer has to constantly leave fatal openings
>has to dodge/block/deflect every thrust
Exactly how is he going to counterattack without getting skewered?
Yeah, late Roman military forces relied heavily on foreign auxiliary forces that were self equipped and fought in their original compositions, with maybe a Roman officer in charge, but often barbarian officers would get a commission. For security reasons, the Romans would try to post these auxiliary units away from the borders they crossed, so central Asian horsemen that arrived in the empire from the black sea would be posted in Britannia or Gallia.
I'd imagine he'd project swords into the air and launch them from numerous angles to throw Lancer off his assault, create an opening, and deploy his reality marble at earliest convenience. From there, strategic projection of anti-demigod or anti-celtic noble phantasms as applicable combined with sword rain to drive him back.
We don't know the absolute list of "what Archer has in his UBW" so we can't perfectly say what he'll do.
UBW is stated explicitly to be, for most Servants, only a somewhat troublesome annoyance.
>Lancer evades the swords 3fast with his Protection from Arrows instead of blocking them like the Crane Wings trap requires
>Archer gets a Gae Bolg in the face
>launch them from numerous angles
what is Protection from Arrows skill
>what is Protection from Arrows skill
That might protect him from the damage, but he still needs to defend himself to use it. It's not some passive "projectiles automatically fail" effect like a video game character. All Archer needs is a break in the offense to begin weaving thaumaturgy.
>UBW is stated explicitly to be, for most Servants, only a somewhat troublesome annoyance.
Considering that Lancer wasn't making any progress, an annoyance on top of that would easily invert the situation.
>Lancer evades the swords 3fast with his Protection from Arrows instead of blocking them like the Crane Wings trap requires
Don't see how this is too different a result from normal, he ends up with 2 copies behind him.
Fate/Stay Night is the Naruto of Type-Moon.
I'm not even baiting
Archer won't be able to replicate the heart-stab.
>t didn’t hit because it was thrust, it hit so it was thrust, an attack on destiny itself.
>What is needed to dodge Gae Bolg isn’t high agility but the power to reverse fate before the activation of Gae Bolg: high luck.
>While it’s strictly anti-personnel and specifically targeting the heart, it’s a top-notch power that decides fate. It’s a noble phantasm a step away from being an authority, but it's no surprise that it is for its welder Cu Chulainn is the child of a god.
All I want to see is Archer Herc. Somewhere, in some Fate thing, somehow. I want to see the greatest of Greek heroes in his best class, throwing down Hundred Shooting Heads tipped with Hydra Poison, stealth-sniping people from afar with a rain of death.
Really, about the only person I'd like to see as much as Herc is Odysseus, the hero with the fame of already winning a war of heroes via subterfuge and stealth.
Not only that, weren't they relying on mercs because the Legions were complaining about having to wear armour and other stupid shit that devalued the entire fighting force? When the best soldiers they were getting in the late empire were coming from the ass end of backwards nowhere (Britain), you've got a problem.
Not the same. Close-ish.
There's probably a degraded copy of Ea somewhere in UBW. Problem is that it's so completely gone it's not even worth being called Ea. If his degraded Excalibur is bad, I don't even want to know how terrible a degraded Ea is.
Ea cannot be projected for numerous reasons, it's the least projectable sword that's ever been a sword.
On top of Gilgamesh being the "only wielder", he can't analyze the structure, he can't detect what it was made out of because it's not created from earthly materials, and he can't understand the reason for its creation because it's an alien construction created for alien purposes.
Just looking at it makes Shirou's brain hurt. It's not in UBW at all, in any manner.
Why can't Archer and Shirou project Ea and Enkidu again? Some bullshit about being out of this world?
Various reasons for Ea (divine construct, alien construct, alien reason for creation, defined by Gilgamesh as being the sole user). I haven't seen anything regarding Enkidu, but being chains, but being neither weapon or armor, that item would probably be outside his sphere of influence anyway.
It's implied that there might be, in fact, degraded NPs of "similar performance" to Ea and Excalibur in there (and Shirou projects an Excalibur copy out of Archer's Arm in the HF Normal ending, so there's that). They're just not Ea, because as said, anything in there just can't be legitimately called it. UBW isn't good enough to do it unless you're in the Moon Cell, where half-decent degraded Excalibur becomes usable.
>Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?
>A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though.
That's really vague. At best it might be some sort of weapon that attacks the world, or that part could just be referring to Excalibur or the concept of "magical energy wave" weapons in general.
He can't even get the shape of that twisted drill down properly.
And he let it through anyway, because it was still degraded.
And Archer also remarks that he could project something degraded but similar in FSN, but it'd be a suicide attack draining all his mana reserves away.
Nasu is the biggest push-over ever
>In EXTRA, the conditions for where wrought iron is possible are boosted so projection of holy-sword class weaponry is possible, though their performance is inferior.
>Okay truth is, I was surprised to find that the staff in charge of the 3D had made animation for Excalibur being projected while I was looking the other way.
>Well it is new animation after all and there's no reason to reject it. So long as it's a degraded version, I guess it's okay.
Might, anon. Might. We don't know. Could absolutely be anti-world stuff in there. Could also not have any anti-world. It's not like we have a list of everything Archer has ever seen and recorded in his lifetime and every single time he was summoned to fuck up some idiot trying to doom humanity.
>For Gilgamesh who possessed all the treasures in the World, mediocre Noble Phantasms mattered very little. However, this sword was one of the exceptions that Gilgamesh treasured greatly.
>The sword bore no mark.
>Ea was just a nickname Gilgamesh used for convenience.
>Furthermore, it was actually hard to say if it was a sword at all.
>After all, this item was something that predated the appearance of spears and swords in history.
>It hailed from a era predated humans and planets.
>It was the manifestation of pure power, wielded by Gods for the purpose of Genesis. A rarity amongst rarities.
>An item that gave birth to this Planet, and cleft apart Heaven and Earth.
>It rent the Void to create the Heavens. It pierced the Cosmos to return to the Void.
>The power that symbolized the beginning and the end. It was something that only Gilgamesh, who inherited the blood of the Gods, was permitted to wield.
I wish he used a whole arsenal of different shit in Grand Order according to the servant he's fighting. Nasu making him use the same shit over and over again doesn't make sense.
>And afterwards stated that they can't project Excalibur.
EXCALIBUR, not Excalipoor. It's not that hard to understand for fucks sake.
Anyways canon VN feats > Nasu's troll interviews
Yeah the Legion had by the fifth century basically become a political vehicle. Also Auxiliary forces were motivated by things like having the safety and political stability of living within the empire because at that point most of the "invaders" were agricultural tribes that were getting pushed off the Steppe by equine nomads or nomads whose own ethnic group weren't large or powerful enough to be independent and who were forced to seek protection within the Empire's borders. Its cheaper to pay an auxiliary who considers the opportunity to live in Eboracum a serious benefit, indeed the primary reason to sign up, instead of a Citizen who wants additional compensation for being sent to the ass end of nowhere.
Now that you mention it I don't know why I thought that. The only source I can find that says "Ea predates the concept of sword" is an unsourced claim in the TM wiki, but I can't recall ever visiting the Ea page there. All my TM knowledge is half-remembered pieces of the original stories, plus the Fuyuki wiki and the Moonlit World from reading through them in highschool, and more recently CM3 translations from BL. But checking all these latter sources I can't find anything about Ea predating sword.
Saber beat him in Fate after deploying Avalon because she released Excalibur faster than Gil could finish reciting "Enuma Elish"
- Ciel is best Turkeyhandle
- It doesn't matter how much /a/ fanwanks him, Lancer still seems quite unimpressive whenever I read the VN.
- Rin should have died in the Fate route (even if I think she's best girl)
No, she catches it at full power using Avalon, which puts Gil in a state where he is stuck for some reason and dies. It's pretty much equal, if not faster, than Excalibur. I'm pretty sure he uses it before Saber can finish chanting Excalibur one of the times.
>he projected an entire massive rain of arrows
>projected Raw Anus to protect Shirou
All in this condition, after getting stabbed in the chest by Shirou, and skewered by Gil, when he was already "low on mana"
It's not faster than Excalibur. Saber manipulated Gilgamesh into thinking she charged her weapon but failed to fire, but she was actually just keeping it at the edge of firing for her Avalon -> instant Excalibur trick.
What? The final clash is Ea vs Excalibur, Excalibur manages to make a bit of room for her to step ahead, he get annoyed and goes full power, Saber uses Avalon, Gil can't stop Ea and has no way to avoid Saber, and Saber Excalibur'd him. The time where it's faster, he pulls out ea, she starts saying "EX..", and then he Enuma numa's her.
The final Enuma Elish was definitely max power. It reached its max rotation, fired, and then got nullified by Avalon. The charge time is instant, but the problem was that it was still spinning, which I guess make him unable to do anything for some reason.
>it's actually right
Shirou =/= Archer.
Archer didn't give a fuck about his life and jobbed against Berserker, Saber, Rider, Saber Alter and the shadow. He only fought seriously in UBW because he wanted to kill Shirou.
That doesn't mean that it makes any sense at all for Archer to have survived to the end of UBW, he's a servant, he needs a master and mana to stay in the world, Independent Action can't do it indefinitely. He was already at less than a tenth of his full strength and he had no master, and yet he somehow makes it all the way to the end spamming projection. Still has enough time to slowly say goodbye to Rin.
>he gets annoyed and goes full power
No, he never went full power a single time in F/SN, not even close.
Right, sorry, I confused something.
Anyway, the real difference in situation is that Gil can't just suddenly cancel his attack after launching Enuma Elish. Excalibur and Enuma Elish can both be throttled to be used faster, but at less output, and Saber's final Excalibur is probably the weakest version of it possible. Meanwhile, Gilgamesh was using Enuma Elish to its greatest output, and that devotes a lot of time and motion, he can't recover from it quickly.
Full power as a regular Servant at least. He probably can't do that outside of the moon cell, where he's likely at his prime strength.
No, it isn't. He first used the true power of Ea in Hollow Ataraxia. He never used it a single time in F/SN.
He can though, he used it in HA. He never used it in F/SN.
>He was already at less than a tenth of his full strength and he had no master, and yet he somehow makes it all the way to the end spamming projection.
Normal projections are not that costly for Archer.
Yes actually, there is. Ea has two different modes, it can either be a beam like Excalibur, or it can be the true form, where it reveals the "truth". Gilgamesh never used it's real power in F/SN, no matter how much you try and insist that he did.
No, that's not how it works. Enuma Elish does not have "modes". It always attacks the world, regardless of its output. Revealing the truth is a side effect, it does not increase the damage or anything.
It's completely different. Do you not have eyes or something? You only need to look at how different the two attacks are to see the difference.
>Enuma Elish (The Star of Creation That Split Heaven and Earth)
>Gilgamesh's final Noble Phantasm which reveals creation--the beginning of everything.
>The severing of space which comes from the Sword of Rupture, Ea, the sword crowned with the name of a god from Mesopotamian mythology.
>The god, Ea, is believed to be the quasi-deification of the power of the planet which turned, smashed, and stabilized the surface of the earth when it was still covered in gas and seas of magma, during the primordial stage of the earth.
>Many gods began building nations after the the primordial earth was stabilized into a world where living creatures could live, but Ea is a god who performed the act of building of planet before that.
>Gilgamesh's sword, which is crowned with Ea's name, changes space itself by agitating space-time through the rotation of three layers of giant power fields.
>It's true power is not something to be used against a single living creature but against the world. Even among the many Noble Phantasms possessed by Servants, it is one considered to be at the top, the sword "which tore apart the world."
>It's not though
Maybe when it was released it was a different story, but nowadays there is no eroge that can even come close to FSN's level in terms of fame, especially when put on a global scale. It's the biggest title in one of the most successful franchises in the anime/manga/ln/vn medium. FSN isn't being overrated in success because the franchise itself is really that successful and the evidence for it is everywhere.
Also there are no eroge that have sold in the millions. Something like YU-NO never broke 300k sales and even non ero video games wish they could break a million in sales in Japan.
>there are 2 sex scenes per route tops
Nice meme m8.
But yeah they could use a fade to black instead.
Probably nobody cares anymore but I recorded it anyway.
First time I've seen the Realta Nua version of the scene myself. The last time I saw it was playing the original PC version back in 2008-9 or so, and there's some music I don't recognize. The effects seem swankier too.
Anyway as you can see the DEEN's anime version of the scene is slightly different, the speed at which Ea can be used is not an issue, and the problem is more that Gil gets screwed by being unable to cancel out of using Ea because he's a scrub who can't MonHun.
No one wants to see brain damaged saggy old Sakura realizing that it's spring again and again a fucking hundred times, nor they wanna see Mature Rin being married to a rich shit-tier magus that held her down from making top 100 in the Association's history and made her bitter because he can't satisfy her in bed due to not having the glorious Jackhammer between his legs.
The fact that he wasn't throwing galaxies at Saber. The narration for the attack is completely different from HA as well. There's no reason to have a big reveal like that in HA if it was the same as what he used against Saber. In CCC it's always massively different. In Fate, the only thing we see is him shooting red beams at Saber. Before more F/SN content came out there's pretty much no way to know that Ea was any different from a beamspam like Excalibur.
concerning Fate you can sum it up as a death battle between mages summoning mythical heroes
for other TM works, it'll be easier for them to have interest in it if they liked Fate
That's purely visual, it offers absolutely no information about the attack. For all we know that only happens in the moon cell.
You're forgetting that scene's importance is Avalon, not Enuma Elish.
Hollow Ataraxia merely took a close look at the effect, no indication it is actually different.
...... it's ...... that December has passed the other half?
How Hey also try not mean or even he did I'll refrain from going out because there is big chill come from today to come doing mercilessly work of the outer loop that. Is mushrooms.
This I'm rough. Rear friend and QUMM (cash Ha Hoho mucho mucho) and if there is spare time are room kotatsu and Koyonaku QUMM to please not in, I'm revelation from God that bocce.
--- Well. The attempt to provide the latest information on such insider us.
That, or to update the diary in momentum because their was also surprised to know a little while ago.
Chopper, I have been doing in a Kirishima teacher or ｰｰｰｰ!? (Yaffu!)
What's this, the 10th early Christmas gift? Continues'm readable but of Miyako of flowers!?
I'm so, there is no Husband is ending in the place where came out Kazuraki couple riding ride in the anime now come out even Altria been also de Ark. Good'll Ken, more Yare ......! No please do I, thank you ...!
On the other hand, Takeuchi was knew firmly pattern.
Can "bamboo, this knew!? Wow, and Miyako'm resume!"
Was "Yeah, I knew. Because I received counseling to me or I do, and me yo good"
Can "I or friends ...... tavern you guys"
I thought I was going to regret picking this character as my servant, I thought she was just going to be kitsune pandering bullshit. Boy, was I wrong. How can a servant be so endearing? please, let's discuss caster.
Last Episode is great though. My favorite ending by far.
People Gil has jobbed to:
People that have jobbed to Gil:
>Lancer (would have won if it wasn't for Enkidu)
>Berserker (only because Gil cheated and attacked Illya)
>That one Hassan that he killed in Tokiomi's mansion.
Numbers don't lie, Gil is officially the King of Jobbers.
F/SN is written, of course. And yes, I would say that video games are written too. F/SN has a longer word count than most books anyways, and you read F/SN more than you play it.
Why does literature has the reputation of having to be high-brow to be good and why do some people take it so seriously when it's just another form of escapism just like movies or videogames ?
Anon Hunger Games is pretty solid. You should know that by now.
I've read a lot of high class novels and I still enjoy cheesy gunk like most VNs to be pleasant romps.
Sure, they're not as good as The Count of Monte Cristo or Don Quixote or the Mahabharata. But nothing prevents me from reading all of the above, and I have plenty of time to read yet more.
Says the one in a thread about a poorly written, poorly translated, poorly adaptated porn game featuring underaged characters killing themselves in a battle royale much like the Hunger Games.
But yes, I was joking.
>Fate Stay Night barely even qualifies as a battle royale
It's a pure battle royal
>it's about the characters
The original Battle Royal was even more character driven
Nah I won't stop. Comparing F/SN to the hunger games is retarded, they're literally nothing alike. It's a battle royale in the sense that some people are fighting in a city. Every series where people fight isn't a battle royale. Fate/Stay Night is a VN where 700,000 words are spent expanding on a single characters life.
>all these defenders in a bait thread
Nasu is such a god of this world.
"My meat expands to it's limits"
"It feels so good I want to vomit"
"Her anus is defenseless. It contracts every time I move, looking like a second reproductive opening"
"The varying movements are like those of an educated prostitute"
"People die when they are killed"
Numerous sexist quotes
It would be tedious to post original lines, the propper translation and the Mirrormoon crappy translation to compare, but there's a lot of threads and pictures archiver which do show comparrisons if you don't believe me. If you knew moon you wouldn't even need to ask why do I say it's poorly translated, of course.
DEEN, nuff said. I can't judge Ufo's adaptation until it ends, but it already contains some very big flaws. Manga adaptation and spinoffs (except CP) are shit too.
>featuring underaged characters killing themselves in a battle royale
This is self explanatory.
Battle Royale is as shit as HG though. And they both have shit-eating fanbase.
you've never seen someone act really cool/charismatic on film, and started acting more like them?
Battle Royal is much tigher in term of writing, pacing, introduction and thematic.
But both are far from being amazing.
Battle Royal had the shock factor going for it and FSN was just released at a good time, nobody sane consider it one of the best VN ever or something
>the same invalid criticisms are refuted time after time
>everyone can generally agree on the weaknesses of the story
>>you fateshitters can't handle criticism XD grow thicker skin
Let's put it this way.
Let's imagine you need to draw a picture for a Chinese cartoon-watching boards. How hard will it be and what will you get?
Reinforcement is drawing a moustache on original image for your purposes. It's simple since you need only to focus on moustache and not making it not fit with the original picture. It's easy and useful.
Projection is drawing your own original doodle for whatever you need. It is helpful if you need something unique, but overall it requires lots of time, effort and you will likely get something awful since, surprise, most people can't draw well. While you could theoretically increase its efficiency, most magi don't bother since they don't have much of a use for it anyway.
But here comes Shirou.
One day, through mysterious circumstances, Shirou falls into a rabbit hole and comes into a magic world that is a factory full of cheap Chinese workers who immediately proclaim he's the Chosen One, and they will draw anything for him... as long as he pays them, since, the Chosen One or not, they only care about if they have enough to eat.
With this factory he can actually do more useful stuff, like make forgeries of famous paintings and stuff.
Of course, despite Chinese workers being workaholics and not needing any sleep, not one of them is genius. They can kinda-sorta copy things they see pretty well, choose what paints to use, what to draw everything on, but in the end they usually plain don't have enough time to draw anything that compares to the original, though they can still make forgeries so good that only art critics would notice.
And here comes Gilgamesh with his collection of sketches from every singel famous artist in history, signed. Thankfully, he's more of a collector than a user so he doesn't like giving these things away, despite the fact every art collector would most likely sell their soul just for one.
But all these Shirou can copy if he can see them, even if shoddily.
The problem is Ea, which is a copy of Tsukihime Half-Moon version with special commentary from Nasu which Gilgamesh runs on his tablet.
Not only is it really valuable and worth big money, Shirou can't copy it.
Giving tablet for a look to Chinese workers only results in them breaking the tablet in two. They only can forge paintings, they can't comprehend the method by which they can copy this one, the materials they need and what the hell even was the reason for its creation.
And that's pretty much how the whole thing works and why Shirou can't project Ea.
That scene is so much more sexy than the original Rider-dream
>Fateshitters can't handle a little criticism while movies got ripped apart by critics all the time.
Movies get ripped apart by professional critics who actually know their shit in most cases, F/SN gets mostly criticized by fat weeb virgins who masturbate to chinese cartoon porn featuring little girls and/or sexually ambiguous boys.
Only good thing is that Ayako is there.
Ayako is stacked as fuck, by far the best girl.
>got gangraped in back alley
>shinji was one of the rapers
More like used goods.
>thinking there's anything wrong with getting raped by the best boy
>this is what Shinjifags actually believe
>being this upset
Shinji is great, that's why he's Shirou's best friend.
>tfw no CapsuServant shota Shirou otouto
Why is that with each version of him, Shirou gets cuter
Honestly, why is Shinji so bro tier?
Because he's just so awesome, I really want more of him in the Nasuverse. He seems like he would be so fun to hang out with.
Someday anon, someday. Even Ilya knows wants a Shinji route.
Did Shinji always hate Shirou?
Seems like Shinji only converses with Shirou because he can handle his haughty attitude and still be able to talk the next day. Shirou barely sees him as a friend, only an acquaintance.
Nasu has already said that he wished he'd have gone easier on Shinji, but I already think he's pretty sympathetic. He's just as much of a victim of Zouken as Sakura is. At least he lives in UBW and apparently mellows out back to his good self, as well as fixing his relationship with Sakura, I hope we get to see her visiting him in the hospital in ufotable's UBW.
>He's just as much of a victim of Zouken as Sakura is
Shinji didn't have to take sixty billion worms up his ass every day
Poor Shinji, he was made to bang his hot stepsister whenever he wanted, he's a victim of Zouken!
If you want to believe materials whose canonicity are questionable, they're friends to an extent even if Shinji is a bit of a douche, mostly because Shirou doesn't fight back much because of his well-known issues.
The point at which Shinji stars to completely hate him is when he gets involved with Tohsaka or with Sakura too much. Shinji felt he was unique in a way because of his status as a magus, but that was taken from him once Sakura entered the Matou family, so his only ways of feeling specil about himself are the control he excerces over Sakura and his hopes of trying to get into Tohsaka's pants, as a another magus
he was a shitty character because there wasn't enough time dedicated to him. If there's one route where he mattered, it was Heaven's Feel, but for a good chunk of the story he fucks off somehwere and then only comes back to be killed
Zouken originally had a wish for humankind
He lost sight of that wish and wanted to become truly immortal from the grail instead.
Also, Zouken's body spoiled faster and faster with each consecutive posession