-Who do you like better?
-Who is better written?
-Who do you find more arousing?
-Who would you rather punch?
Technically Ciel also did, in the sense that Roa possessed her and it is implied he used the body to have sex. I think that might have something to do with why she's not popular.
>Because she kills innocent people nonchalantly?
Yeah, like Homura who's universally adored. There are so many loved murderous psychos among the medium it's ridiculous.
There are also plenty of examples of the masses adoring /d/ tier fetishes.
One of the most popular female archetypes.
>Sakura is the most fleshed out girl in Fate
If "pity me" is considered being fleshed out.
Among main heroines? Yeah, I'd agree with that as well. I wish Saber had development beyond Fate though. Would be nice.
Also, it's obvious that "Fate" refers to the VN in general.
>Also, it's obvious that "Fate" refers to the VN in general.
No that refers to the franchise in general.
silly OP, Ciel is best type moon girl.
>-Who do you like better?
>-Who is better written?
>-Who do you find more arousing?
>-Who would you rather punch?
Ciel, possibly because her fight with Shiki in the MB manga.
No wonder Saber, Rin and Sakura cheat on your 2 inch Jap dick with large Shiki cock.
>Ciel is best type
Not even letting you finish. Seibah the best TM of all time. OF ALL TIME.
>Out of all the heroines, I thought she was the least to betray her MC
But that's Rin though. She's a fucking bro to Shirou in every route, even when she knows she's not destined to win the bowl.
Sakura is a cute and sexy kouhai
Ciel is a cool senpai
They both fill their niches. Though I think Ciel has more potential and I loved playing her in Melty Blood.
>fate heroines are a bunch of sluts
Rider sleeps with men in Fuyuki and tries with Waver
Bazett wants Cu sausage
Caren just likes rapists
Jeanne wants the DRAGON DICK
Mordred has daddy issues with a punk rock biker
Nero loves having a harem and acknowledges her slut ways
Medea takes the Souichirou dick
Enkidu takes the G
Ayako had Shinji
I mean what else?
I can't find any fault with this logic
To be fair, seiba's bust size seems to change depending on whatever Takeuchi feels like.
That's as not the same Sakura as possible in a way, it's not Matou anything. She explains early on that she only coincidentally has that name since her name is chosen at random from the contestants. Sentient computer program that's watched over the timeless Moon for longer than humans can know, finds some humanity in the game, her humanity is at odds with her duty, can't figure out which way to go a bit kind of like Saber, her ingame character arc is very different from Matou. In the game they mention that if BB was based on something in the real world then that person might like Emiya, however the way they tell you "If she was based on a real person" kind of tells you she wasn't, and rather that was just a reference. Not to mention another difference
>It’s Elizabeth again. …I suppose it’s good that’s she’s come out to meddle with us, since it means her merge with Sakura is being delayed, but…Also the same, it’s kind of tiresome.
>Elizabeth :: Heehee, your mind seems troubled. I understand, I understand. This kind of puzzle hits a nerve, doesn’t it. I get migraines myself, so I can understand what you’re going through to some small extent. All right! I’ll talk to you, since you’ve gone through so much for it. Keep in mind that a noble is addressing you, so as a fan you are to answer my questions graciously. I told you before that this body has the necessary qualities to become me, didn’t I? The first of those requirements is beauty. The next is youth. And the last is innocence — chastity!
>Sakura :: Wh, what!? Ah, um…I’m an AI, so…!
It's why we call her Blossom-sensei, to differentiate them a bit.
What, did a girl with glasses beat you up in middle school?
>Comparing a complete bro like Ciel to wormslut
Ciel is the worst of the Tsukihime heroines and she's still several times better than Sakura.
Yeah, it's Rin that does that tattoo thing like a punk along with her drinking, drugs, underage sex, driving without a license, and dyeing her hair blond
Just look at this, if she still had a father he'd call her mildly irresponsible. There's no telling even where she got such an up front tattoo she wears around at school every day.
I fear she's going down a dark path.
>-Who do you like better?
>-Who is better written?
>-Who do you find more arousing?
>-Who would you rather punch?
Ciel can probably take a punch better, but still probably neither.
Sakura as Dark Sakura would win, against any human that's kind of unfair. People can't seem to realize what all sins in creation has an advantage over anything in humanity in a sense. No human could beat incarnated Angya Manyu either, but there are inhuman things that could win, or probably some Guardians.
No human can beat Primate Murder either
Sakura as normal Sakura, not a fucking chance.
Killing Ciel is impossible either way though. At most she's just sort of eaten or something.
We know Senpai isn't Senpai without her glasses, but is Sakura still Sakura without her worms?
Ryougi Shiki isn't Tohno, but She/he's still Shiki
Shiki is Shiki, but sometimes it's SHIKI, and also Shiki who died to gain power who has an alternate persona called Shiki but isn't Shiki
Sometimes Shiki, Shiki, Shiki, SHIKI, Shiki, and Shiki might get together and just have it out about how their names are similar. They can form a club.
That club can be called "Mystic Eyes Alliance", or we can go around the table and see if someone else has an idea.
What about Fake Shiki from Tsukihime? He doesn't have Mystic Eyes.
I mean only ones it could have been out of the main four, are Ilya and Saber.
He remembers the others, but for one point or another it can't quite be them.
Earlier today some folks in Japan were saying the ED for UBW2 has a lot of Shirou and Rin in it, but some were saying it could actually have been from Archer's past.
I know it doesn't make any sense, but who knows what the fuck Ufotable's gonna end up doing.
>A man with an understanding lover
Present tense. I seriously doubt it was Saber.
I think it was said he slept with a number of girls while on his travels around the world in CCC. He thought it was love each time, but it turned out they were using him or betrayed him somehow, every single time.
Like a James Bond thing, except a James Bond who's terrible at figuring out that everyone he sleeps with was really an enemy agent. Thinking each time "Alright, this girl is the one".
He talks to Hakuno about this after she thinks he's trying to sleep with her I guess.
Doesn't make sense at all. Shirou is the complete opposite of Shiki, both in personality, in demeanor, and in looks. Even the color palette is different.
>expecting Ciel to fall in love with someone that is the complete opposite of her tastes
Reminder that Ciel still loves Shiki even when Shiki chose Arcueid and went around being the God of Death.
It's almost as asinine as saying that Saber would fall in love with Shiki.
If the random person is a person that has the potential to become a hero, then yeah, why not give away something you don't really have any attachment to. It's not like it's Nanako she's giving away.
>not complete opposite
Shiki does not care if you're a man or woman and does not keep reminding you of your gender.
Shiki is a complete asshole to friends, classmates, and family. So even if he's an asshole, he doesn't have any chauvinist inklings in him and doesn't use any chauvinist reasoning for his actions.
Shiki would rather not help people until forced to, and this is why he is a general loner even if he's beloved by his female classmates.
He is not selfless enough to just die for someone, and even when he and Arcueid were fighting Nero, he was still unsure of what to do, whilst Shirou would have just jumped in front of a shark to save Saber even if he were to die. Shiki is happy to live and content, Shirou is not and wishes to be something he is not.
Shiki doesn't work hard at all, and has not trained seriously for a period of almost a decade. Everything comes easily to Shiki.
Shiki is not polite, he is forceful even when not in a fight, and has clear rapist tendencies.
No version of Shirou is even close to the vanilla version of Shiki that Ciel falls in love with.
Conceptual weapons are rare items and are almost always one of a kind. It is not something you carry around with you in the expectation of handing it out just because someone seems promising or they helped you out.
Though I would be very curious what happened that Ciel needed help from Emiya.
That's how its properties are described as compared to something that protects like armor would.
You don't expect to give it away.
But sometimes you do.
Aoko was the same thing. She just owned something she stole from her sister and carrying it around. Gave it to someone who needed it.
If you fight alongside another person and see their potential, why would you not give the special weapon to that person if they become a hero or a CEO in the future?
Ciel has never been truly loyal to the Church. Even in Talk, she knows that the Church just wants her to die, but she's got really nothing else to do with her life.
Ciel's Black Keys are also conceptual weapons. You're acting as if Ciel cares about something she doesn't even own. She's a Burial Agent ffs. Merem Solomon kills people for his own enjoyment.
Shirou prjojected an awesome replica of a conceptual sword-like weapon Ciel needed, so she considered it fair to give him the shroud in payment.
Or maybe he cooks a really mean curry rice.
>implying being laid-back is bad for a character
Shiki is the anti-/fit/. He don't care about his gains, bro. I think that's pretty cool, aside from his mouth that needs to get soaped because it's so dirty.
Aoko didn't bring the glasses until after Shiki showed off to her. Whether or not she had already stolen them she didn't just carry them with her. More importantly, Shiki had a huge problem, one that isn't at all similar to something the shroud could solve. It sounds to me more like Ciel went back to get a shroud from the Church, not a spur of the moment thing.
I said almost always. Aside from the Keys that is not the case. We're talking Noble Phantasm or Black Barrel tier weapons. Just because you're not loyal doesn't mean you throw away something you could use in the future.
>. It sounds to me more like Ciel went back to get a shroud from the Church,
There is no implication of this at all. If they assisted one another on DAA hunting missions, then it's possible she did. But then, that would just be the same as her hunting runs with Merem Solomon and the rest of the Burial Agency.
I don't see Ciel spreading her legs for Merem or Dawn.
You don't know what Ciel really thinks of the garment. Maybe she had more than one Shroud or other weapons too. Ciel has the entire repository of the Church at her disposal.
What's a shroud worth to her? Literally nothing. It's not like she's giving away The Seventh Sacrament. Now if she gave that away, you would have made a point. But the Church and the Mage Association has these things like they're candy.
>there is still no apocrypha ova announcement
Come on, TM. Where's muh DRAGON DICK thirsty Jeanne?
There's no implication to what happened other than she gave it to him. I'm saying that if she needed to carry it with her than it's something that would be important in the future. If she didn't think of it as important then there's no reason to bring it with. Even if it's some one of a kind Dead Apostle where it doesn't happen to be necessary but you want to bring it with - if you go and search out for something like that inside of the Church there's no reason you just give it away once the job is done.
>I'm saying that if she needed to carry it with her than it's something that would be important in the future
That means nothing. The Church could have several shrouds for all you know and that's why it was easy for her to give it away. Or that Ciel thinks that it's nothing really essential like the Seventh Sacrament actually is. To Ciel, who has the entire repository of goods that the Church has, there's more than one way to skin a cat. And it's a defensive gear. It's not like it's a superweapon like Nanako. Probably just means the Church has a lot of other defensive gears.
You can give shit away to people you randomly meet. Especially when you've got more of them in the warehouse. And Ciel has a treasure trove with the Church.
There are Noble Phantasms and Black Barrel weapons kept sealed, and then there's mangy Burial Cloths that can be given away if you find someone worthy enough.
Even Caren has one, and the Church kind of hated Caren. Church kind of gives out their own shit to whoever. They hate Ciel, but as long as she'll work for them, they'll give her shit.
They'll get it back when you die
You confusing the issue with "This is noble phantasm level shit they've giving out, he can't just be anyone", meanwhile this is not noble phantasm level shit. They have low rank sort of shit as well.
She owns the Holy Shroud, the Shroud of Magdalene (マグダラの聖骸布, Magudara no Seigaifu), which is a red cloth with the power to forcefully bind men. However, while the man is bound, no harmful physical attacks can be made against him or Magdalene will be rendered useless. It is a type of Mystic Code.
The Church does have several shrouds, they show up in various works. But they all have different properties because they come from different saints.
As for Ciel? If you can't accept the idea that there's no reason to bring excess items like a fucking robe of cloth into the field, all I'll add on is this: Ciel takes her job very seriously. There's a reason that persona is a different mode entirely. There's no show from anything she's in that she cares so little about her equipment that she'll throw it away.
Burial cloths are holy weapons from the church, if you think that they are disposable then you miss the entire point of them being stored at all. These are items with sacred meaning that are weaponized with the sole purpose of taking down enemies of the Church. I'm not saying "These rival Noble Phantasms!" I'm saying "These aren't nearly as disposable as Black Keys."
>Ciel takes her job very seriously. There's a reason that persona is a different mode entirely. There's no show from anything she's in that she cares so little about her equipment that she'll throw it away.
She throws away her Black Keys like they're fucking candy. If there's an excess of Shrouds in the Church, then she could just get another one if she loses the other one.
The Church gave away a Shroud to Caren, who isn't even in the same league as Ciel. And there are Church Knights, Executioners before you reach the Burial Agent status.
If Ciel just picked up a bulletproof vest out of a huge armory of bulletproof vests that her bosses own, then gives you one, she still has a huge bulletproof vest catalogue to choose from.
Even if they have thousands we know that they have unique properties, you can't just find one you like and mass produce it. This is no pile of bullet proof vests, it's a pile of clothing that all does different things.
Black Keys are a weapon for the Church as a whole that can be mass produced in one way or another.
There are 8000 Catholic saints. 8000. It's more likely than not that a lot of them have the same function. Some better than others for offense, some better than others for defense. 8000 is still a large number so that you can have like even just 10 percent of that being nothing but defensive shrouds.
Ciel generally doesn't fight with shrouds. Not in Tsukihime, not in MB, not in Talk, or in the Prelude.
Her most powerful form doesn't even use a shroud. She's half naked in a miniskirt and only using the Seventh Sacrament.
A shroud isn't that important to her, because she probably just uses them when she uses them. If she doesn't have them, no biggie.
If they gave her gear for a mission, why wouldn't she take it? If it's one of the gears she was given as equipment along with her Black Keys, why would she form a great attachment to it? It's a shroud that there are almost ten thousands others in Church control.
It's like if the Church gave Ciel automatic rifles and she brought them to Japan, what's the reason for her to not give them away if she wants to or not?
The Church doesn't force weapons on anyone, but they can just give you shit along with your clothes and disguises. You taking the shit or not doesn't mean anything.
Ciel would be like a high executive officer in a company. If the company gave her a bunch of cellphones and she decided to give one away, why would the company try and piss her off when she's one of their best assets and they have thousands of cellphones anyway?
It's the same concept.
This is all lengthy speculation on your part. The more likely explanation is that didn't happen. We know that members do instead make orders for the weapons they want from the Church, so if there was a shroud Ciel wanted she would request it herself and at that point it would have to be pretty important.
if there was a vampire master, what would happen under the following circumstances?
If they bit their servant. Would they be able to "turn" their servant? would the servants blood do anything special? could they even suck a servants blood in the first place?
If Ciel can just request a Shroud, it doesn't mean there are no similar shrouds around with almost ten thousand of them floating around in reality. Which would make it the same as her ordering an AK or two if she wants to.
Even Caren has a shroud. You're the only one putting importance on something that there are thousands of.
Your lengthy speculation is that a shroud is special since Ciel uses it, so giving it away is not something that she would do. What if the shroud that she used was just a shroud the Church has by the hundreds in terms of ability? Then all that Ciel has done is given away a handgun or a rifle away.
There is a Dead Apostle master in Fate/Strange, he gets his ass beaten by Assassin the instant he summons her. Servants by existence are a bit closer to DAA on the scale than DA, which means they're a bit inbetween DA and DAA. You'd have to be a particularly strong DA to have a chance.
This guy seems good though, he's still alive despite dying.
I mean Vlad was DAA level in Fate/Apoc when he went full vampire, I think he tried biting Karna or Achilles.
Why would you order something insignificant specifically if you already have weapons that outperform it? If she ordered it, then it would have to be something important, something that she needed.
Caren having a shroud really wrecks this. Because if even a low-level member of the Church can have one that even has a famous saint's name, then what are shrouds really worth? It could just be the equivalent of Ciel asking for a bulletproof vest for conceptual attacks and there could be countless of them in Church control.
I mean closer to DAA, in the sense that it's been said they're stronger than an average/normal one, but might have no chance against the upper tiers.
World of difference between the riff raff DAA and the ORT's out there.
You can order a lot of shit. That doesn't mean you put a lot of love into the object. What makes you think Ciel didn't order more than one Shroud? What makes you think Ciel didn't just order a basic package? If I order a sniper rifle, for a sniper mission, and I know there's more where that came from, then what's the matter if I throw away the rifle after the mission?
It's a Shroud that can have hundreds to thousands of similar types of other Shrouds.
Because at no point has she ever needed or worn one in Tsukihime, or any work she showed up in. A sniper is vital to a mission but Archer's shroud is not something that is armor, it protects from the world. That's all. Can you even think up a mission where Ciel's normal outfit and skills would require an extra garment?
Way to skirt what I said.
I implied that if Ciel ordered more than one Shroud, it's easy to give another one away, if she has a backup.
If she ordered it as a package for a certain mission, and there's more where it came from, there's no reason why she can't just discard the item afterward.
There's also the big point you deliberately ignored and has nothing to do with your reply: if there are similar other shrouds among the 8,000+ shrouds that should exist for Catholic saints, and probably thousands more that we do not know or are unnamed, then if the Church has a large backup of the Shrouds, then she can just easily give away the Shroud she ordered because there's more where it came from.
And since even lower level agents like Caren has a Shroud, it is not far from the realm of truth that Ciel has a large amount of inventory waiting for her.
It's very similar to ordering a Barrett 50 sniper rifle for an anti-materiel mission, and then just dropping the thing in the water after I finished my mission.
This was actually SOP for some maritime protection agencies and their mercenaries. They order the weapons of their choices, they carry it in the ship, they throw the weapons away in the ocean before entering a port city.
Ordering something doesn't mean you're attached to it forever. Especially not something that the Church has thousands of.
You pulled attention to a poll, many of us hadn't even seen since it was way up there in the thread.
In calling attention to it, you called attention to it for the poll-spammers as well. Someone will always spam a poll when one is posted, you were just lucky it didn't happen before this. When someone reminded everyone that this existed, it was over.
I'm not ignoring or skirting. I know the church has plenty but that doesn't mean that they're not unique. I know she doesn't have to feel attachment but that doesn't mean you order things you don't need. I'm simply addressing the things that, to me, don't fit, and arguing over whether or not the shrouds are important to the church is pretty dumb.
Maybe I'll summarize it all again because we seem to be talking past one another, with you not answering what I'm saying either:
Ciel goes somewhere, orders a specific set of items for a mission, whatever. At no point will she say she needs a shroud for the hell of it. No one ships her a shroud by accident or just in case or as standard practice. She's one of the top fighters in the Church, she orders her own weapons for use even when she's under order to go somewhere. We've seen her both planning to deal with the Dead and planning to deal with Roa, and we know she didn't need a shroud like that. So in what situation do you see her willingly ordering one, needing to use it, and then giving it away? I cannot picture a single situation where that makes sense for the protection Archer's shroud offers.
Ciel didn't need a Shroud before because she has a time reversal curse on her body, you idiot.
Why would she need a flak jacket when it's not going to be useful when she has the ultimate protection in that she can't die?
If she needs a flak jacket of a shroud now, it's because she can get killed doing work. And if she can just easily give something like that away, it's because there's more where that came from.
Actually, there's thousands more where that shroud came from. You are the one making stupid remarks about "that shroud doesn't have similar other shrouds to it in the Church inventory" but there would likely be a lot of of them, considering there's almost 10k of them in Church possession.
If Ciel ordered "Can I have 3 defensive shrouds, and twelve grenades for this mission?" then that obliterates every fucking single thing that you've said.
At least there is some doujins, I, fine with that.
We're talking about Archer's shroud. That's not a physically defensive item, I've said that plenty of times by now. You're also trying to apply logic to it as if it's a mass produced real world item when we know that it's not. A defensive shroud that defends against the world? Physical attacks? Magic? The Dead? Flames?
Regardless, we know about Ciel post-Tsukihime, in things like Talk or Melty Blood. If you had the impression that her immortality was what kept her safe then you should pay attention to those.
Melty Blood is not a world where Ciel has a lot of preparation. And the only time she prepares for someone, it's against the personification of the Planet, so no garb can defeat her so no use even ordering one when there's really not enough time to even prepare. Actually, it's Arcueid that even defeats said personification. And in Talk, it was simply a huge giant forest that prevents you from using magecraft.
Also, Ciel fights DAAs. DAAs that would be able to use magecraft themselves. DAAs that have millenia to hundreds of years of ability to pull out the most fucked up shit they can.
If she asked for a shroud post-Tsukihime when she lost her protection, it would make sense if she's facing off against really huge threats.
Besides, Roa beat the shit out of Ciel in Tsukihime.
NONE of these points you're putting forward means that the Church doesn't have very similar shrouds in stock for the 8000+ saints they have.
Besides, a shroud is huge, since it's something that completely covers a saint's corpse. You could have multiple shrouds from the same shroud cloth.
Found it. Huh guess it was just one.
>Besides, a shroud is huge, since it's something that completely covers a saint's corpse. You could have multiple shrouds from the same shroud cloth.
Why didn't you just say this before? It all makes sense now.