I've been pondering: how did a writer who admittedly can't even pull off a relationship between a teenager and a legendary figure even get as popular as he did?
I'd imagine Taiga has had something to do with it. Taiga is what got me through the fate route.
Nasu is extremely good at spurring people's imaginations. He creates a world with a vast amount of intricacies and uses premises that get the reader involved with it. You see plenty of threads where people come up with servants and stats and everything.
He's also a smart businessman. He's outsourced his world to other people, thus creating a huge franchise that gets his name and his brand out there. Just this year there have been like, five new light novels, and only one actually written by Nasu.
Topple on the fact that Nasu himself isn't a terrible writer. People do enjoy his works. Some more than others obviously. I mean people rag on Fate, but plenty will defend UBW and HF.
Are you requesting hilarious nasu images like this one?
Powerlevels and hot women. Why do you think Naruto/One Piece/Fairy Tail are so popular even with the older crowd?
Stop trying to be a wannabe /lit/ faggot, you probably can't even differentiate "low" and "high" literature other than "oh I learned this writer name in school, that mean he wrote high literature"
What do you think the TM fanbase is made of? Aside from the bara fujoshi that powered FZ, most of what we have in TM threads are powerlevelfags, waifufags, and haremfags. Especially the fanfics. If you've even tried reading them, they're clearly trying to insert themselves into the story because of their waifus.
You started off acting like your opinion is fact. Before he had a name, before he had a business, he still managed to hook people in with his writing. That's gotta account for something.
don't start that arguments
secondaries are flowing.
>inb4: muh secret club
Dude what the fuck are you even going on about? You come in here acting haughty saying enjoying Nasu's stuff means you have low standards, but asking based on what means you're acting pretentious?
Do every posts have to be followed by a "in my opinion".
Of course in a fucking anonymous image board everything is made of opinions, how the fuck do you factually prove shits like this?
And "in my opinion" Nasu "hooking" people was more of a question of good timing, same thing with a lot of extremely popular things in this world
I'm just saying that some people like you always use the "high literature" stuff as a way to escape from an argument.
But high literature doesn't mean shit, a fiction is a fiction and a writer is a writer
So you basically just chimed in to say he's shit with nothing else to really add? Alright.
Tsukihime though was one of the most popular doujin games around when it was released. Boiling it down to timing is being rather dismissive.
>I'm just saying that some people like you always use the "high literature" stuff as a way to escape from an argument.
shitstorm is comming
that's why i don't visit these kind of threads anymore, fuck off.
>inb4:hurr read the vn durr
>Tsukihime though was one of the most popular doujin games around when it was released. Boiling it down to timing is being rather dismissive
Well if you look at some example you can see that timing is everything
Do you think shit like gangnam style ended up popular world-wise because it's good music for example?
Good timing is everything
>I'm just saying that some people like you
Getting personal? Rude.
>use the "high literature" stuff as a way to escape from an argument
I just don't see what argument you're making. You say liking this stuff means you have low standards, but that alone means you're setting a standard somewhere, so the obvious next question is "what"?
It was fanfiction on multiple levels. On one, in story it was Avenger's fanfiction, but in reality, the vast majority of it was written by people other than Nasu.
Remember, it's a "fandisc". That alone should tell you something.
It's a multimedia barony at best.
It's followed by people who mostly don't do a whole lot of reading, or don't do a whole lot of watching other things. And nerds.
>has the TM logo on it
Nasu writes excellent relationships and characters head and shoulders above most writers involved in the japanese anime industry but since his an actual author as opposed to a comic book artist or screen writer his underappreciated on /a/ and only liked on /tg/ and places where his counted among urban fantasy writers such as Butcher and Pratchet where he belongs.
This is the biggest mistake you made. Nasu has managed to write a grand total of 1 good character relationship that also happened to be thematic and that was the archer-shirou one.
But the industry is tiny and amongst the actual big franchises in the industry Type moon as a whole is nothing.
Bandai own multiple franchises that make more than their entire company.
The way all of TM's fan games have worked is so Nasu can easily take out bits that he doesn't want to use or particularly enjoy. Kagetsu and HA were both dreams, with large chunks quite literally written by fans. They do have the logo on them, but they're framed in a way that just about any section can be disregarded without any problem.
Both Zero and UBW topped the charts when it came to BD sales, and how many fucking Saber figures exist out there? You're also acting like TM itself is a huge company like Bandai. They're relatively small. The entire thing is powered by Nasu and his name, and he carries weight. Look at that Red Dragon shit. An entire multimedia project spawned because of a few D&D sessions with his buddies.
You have summoned the ultimate evil.
No, urban fantasy is set in the real world you bell end. It's just fantasy if it takes place in a fictional world, even if it's set in a city. It might be fantasy noir, or whatever.
You said it was big, not me, it's not, it's tiny and shit.
TM has created a big franchise, but TM itself is a small company. It's a company powered almost entirely by one man and his creation. Bandai is a massive international corporation.
>opposite high fantasy, which is set in an entirely fictitious world.
>proving me right.
>is a subgenre of contemporary fantasy which is fantasy set in the present day.
>Urban fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy defined by place; the fantastic narrative has an urban setting. Urban fantasy exists on one side of a spectrum, opposite high fantasy, which is set in an entirely fictitious world. Many urban fantasies are set in contemporary times and contain supernatural elements. However, the stories can take place in historical, modern, or futuristic periods, and the settings may include fictional elements. The prerequisite is that they must be primarily set in a city.
It's like you went half blind from being proven wrong.
>a company powered almost entirely by one man and his creation
That's not true.
People undervalue all the staff he put together in each games too much, even FSN had several sub-writers
That's really not true and show that your knowledge of the japanese subculture is shallow to say the least
except it's actually higher quality than most of what /a/ likes as it's got actual character development and plot
really you set your standards in the stratosphere and forget that most of the world subsists on attack on titan and dancing with the stars
>the stories can take place in history, modern or future, mostly in a city
>specifically says when it's a fictional world it's a different kind of fantasy
>nights watch is set on the disk which floats around space on the back of
5elephants which ride on the back of the great a'tuin
But some of that shit is actually really high quality shit.
The average person might love the marvel movies, but the fact it's geared towards a mass audience doesn't stop Iron Man and Captain America: the first avenger from being good, smart, action movies.
>>Urban fantasy is a subgenre of fantasy defined by place
> The prerequisite is that they must be primarily set in a city.
are we doing this all day?
go run a search for urban fantasy on google and you're going to get Pratchet in the results
your wrong because you can't distinguish between a definiton and a common trait, deal with it
>Iron Man and Captain America: the first avenger from being good, smart, action movies.
I mean I know that HA had multiple writers, and plenty of TM's spin offs were written by different people, but I've never heard of Nasu's primary VNs as having multiple people on them.
Yeah you know why? becuase a tiny section of people on goodreads will mistag it, like they do lots of things.
If I go around calling lord of the rings historical fantasy that doesn't make it true, even if Tolkien repeatedly claimed it took place in England.
The definition of urban fantasy starts to get really vague if you don't limit it to nominally real-world. If you'll allow me to get a bit /tg/ with my examples, is Shadowrun urban fantasy? What about Planescape? What about a superhero setting?
>That's really not true and show that your knowledge of the japanese subculture is shallow to say the least
I've said precious little about it. Just that upon casual observation most characters are written poorly and that is obviously true. Go down the list of popular anime sales and find me something you'd be comfortable calling a character study. How far did you have to go?
Most of HA was definitely written by other writers and FSN had some helpers, though not at the level of being sub-writers.
Fire Girl and Fate/Zero weren't written by Nasu too
But it's not like TM publishes a lot of stuff
You know what I'm just gonnna directly copy/paste the source for that section.
Urban fantasy is often defined as having supernatural/paranormal elements layered over our recognizable modern or near-future world. The setting is a large city such as Los Angeles, New Orleans, or St. Louis. Often the main character is female and the story is told in first person point of view. The story can have elements pulled from other genres such as science fiction, mystery, horror, and romance and woven together in a cohesive manner with varying degrees of emphasis placed on each of these genre elements. Primarily, the plot will consist of a mystery to be solved or a problem to be corrected before some great calamity strikes. Romance, if present, is usually a secondary plot. Character and story arcs often carry for multiple books. These are “The Rules” of urban fantasy.
We could spend hours if not days debating the finer points of what is or isn’t urban fantasy. That is time we could spend doing more productive things, like writing the next book in a series or even the first book in a new series. For me, the definition hinges on the romance and if it’s the main focus of the story or not because it’s the easiest way to separate urban fantasy from its cousin, paranormal romance."
>We could spend hours if not days debating the finer points of what is or isn’t urban fantasy. That is time we could spend doing more productive things
This is art Takeuchi did just this year for Newtype magazine, and it looks even worse than the F/SN visual novel. He has somehow gone backwards after having 10 years to improve his craft. All he's learned is how to dress things up with awful looking cg effects.
Fuck, Shiro's eyes are almost level with the base of his nose in this pic. Takeuchi is incapable of drawing anyone whose face doesn't look like it's trying to slide off and escape from the horrible design it's attached to.
With no talent and no ability to design appealing characters, it's no wonder Takeuchi has never found work outside of projects with Nasu (Canaan). No one who doesn't have a longstanding personal relationship with this artist would ask them to work on anything.
No, just becuase you're assblasted you can't redefine words to mean the things you thought they did doesn't make everybody else on the planet have to go along with your autism.
Urban fantasy is fantasy that's urban. The trick is in the name.
>the trick is in the game
Guys modern literature is just stuff that's coming out today, it doesn't mean something specific and most modern stuff isn't from like the 19th century and early 20th century!
I think you're giving Takeuchi a little too much credit. He was pretty shit even in his FSN days.
Like, I love this scene, but the dude's art doesn't do it any fucking justice.
>everybody says that Nasu is shit
>been browsing this site and fate threads for years, and never once seen any sort of definitive plot holes or examples of bad writing pointed out, just silly (translated) prose
It just seems like you either don't pay attention, or refuse to accept the explainations given because you don't like them.
It's actually fairly consistent in practice. It's just a running theme that the people who know how the world works actually don't have a very accurate idea of how it works at all.
I read it in Japanese.
His style is annoying because has no control over the text, he just keep reusing the same vocabulary with the same syntax ad nauseam while the narration repeats itself several times and the characters run in circle.
Basically it's pretty evident that back then he was still an amateur who never learned how to actually write
>good writers often have plot holes
Nope, plot holes are by definition bad writing. There are things that can make up for writing, but that doesn't mean that the writing itself if good. I'd love to see some examples of what you're talking about, though.
Is it this shit in Japanese?
Nasu's world is quite consistent, it's just that he really loves to focus on the outliers and anomalies over the run-of-the-mill.
That's not inconsistent, so much as it is putting a magnifying glass next to slight irregularities.
Well the most famous would probably be Citizen Kane, or the eagles in lord of the rings (inb4 justifications, despite the fact tolkien's response was just "that wouldn't have been a very good story now would it")
>has no control over the text
This is meaningless.
>repeats himself ad nauseum
That's subjective, really, unless you're talking about things like "this chair", which crop up maybe once or twice per route, and again, are subjective as to whether or not it works for you.
Every japanese writer does this. It's just a feature of the language, there are few different ways to say things that don't change the level of formality.
I haven't seen Citizen Kane, but i'm pretty sure that it's lauded more for it's cinematography than anything. Also, Tolkien's writing wasn't good at all. He had stellar worldbuilding and prose, but I'm talking in the context of plot.
"Writing" is separate to prose and setting, and even if it traditionally wasn't, I just specified that that's what I meant by it. Mashing them all together under one blanket term has nothing do do with objectivity, or this conversation for that matter.
No offense, but that's pretty much the number one mark of bad taste.
>how did a writer who admittedly can't even pull off a relationship between a teenager and a legendary figure
Nasu has his insecurities but the vast majority of people who picked the game up originally disagreed and loved the relationship between Shirou and Saber. Thats why in the popular "fandom works", they are the go to couple related to F/SN, see All Around Type Moon and Take Moon/Carnival Phantasm
He made great characters in a highly interesting and whimsical setting. The plots of the three routes might get absolutely silly but his characters and setting made up for them.
It's a matter of mood or inflection. "Shikatanai" for example is more of a surrendering, "well fuck it" tone usually said with a shrug. "Shikata ga nai" is a more resolute "I'm just not going to think about it for now" feel. "Shouganai" is a bit more of a cheery, "I'm not gonna care too much" idea, sort of?
The idea of "I'm going to stop resisting for the moment" can have various contextual implications. "It can't be helped" is surprisingly versatile.
Characters are an element of writing. "Writing" is plot and characters, setting and prose are separate. It's essentially impossible to have a work that is badly written but has good characters, unless everything happens because of deus ex machinae or something.
We're obviously two different people, I don't know what you're trying to prove.
Japan really wants to fuck Saber, like Jesus Christ they want to do horrible, horrible things to that king.
The fact that the pairing is popular I think is more due to channeling that. Kind of like how Rin/Archer is popular because the fujos want Archer's sword.
>We're obviously two different people, I don't know what you're trying to prove.
I understand it's two people. I'm just pointing out that we have people explaining this (terrible) aspect of Nasu's writing in exactly opposite ways.
Or its popular because she is their favourite girl and they like the chemistry she has with Shirou.
I mean, accross the three routes Saber and Shirou have the best chemistry. Even if it isnt romantic, Saber and Shirou display strong bonds of friendship/cameraderie and its very noticable in UBW and HF.
Again, Nasu can say what he wants about how he views his own writing, but the fanbase has long since disagreed with him about it.
>accross the three routes Saber and Shirou have the best chemistry
That's very debatable. I mean I can say the exact same things you said about Saber about Rin.
And frankly, trusting fanbases isn't always the best thing.
>All characters in this smouldering pile of profit motivated japanese literary feces are over the age of 18.
Rin and Shirou are consistently great friends and partners accross the routes but moments like Saber telling Rin that she is still loyal to Shirou over her despite her being her new master or Shirou telling Rider in HF not to pronounce his name the way Saber did because he is still torn up about her apparent death are things that spring to mind to prove my point.
There are quite a few other moments I could bring up in support aswell
All I mean to say is that Japanese have very few synonyms, and typically modify things not with diction but with various aspects of grammar.
Anybody who is a serious, well-respected author would know the difference. Besides that, I've defined it the way I have, and you're just chasing after semantics now. Plot holes are lazy, bad writing, and that is independent of setting or prose. That's all there is to it.
The "it can't be helped" thing has a lot of cultural meanings. I'm just an outsider that finds this shit interesting so I probably don't even know the first thing about it but there's a lot of near self-degredation about it.
Ah, I don't want people to feel like I'm seriously attacking Fate.
I really like it regardless.
Everybody's a newfaggot now Anon. I'm on 4chan year 3.
Speaking of which, I need to go watch anime. Fuck this shithole.
>Plot holes are lazy, bad writing
I'm gonna let you in on a secret. Even amazing writers aren't perfect.
Also can you stop trying to talk about Japanese writing when you clearly know less than nothing about it.
Saber also ultimately kills Shirou more than Rin. I don't think Rin like, ever really does.
Let's not get into this debate though, it'll turn into a waifu war.
My point though is I think Shirou and Saber are popular due to a couple of circumstances that don't necessarily relate to people preferring their chemistry. First and foremost, Saber is just popular, so of course the "main" pairing with her is popular as well. The Fate route is also the most well known. Nasu's gone on record saying if he wanted to adapt it again, it would require changes because at this point it's a little too well known to be fresh, so obviously Shirou and Saber will be popular as their route is most recognizable.
A lot of reasons, but starting with a doujin and amassing loyal fans probably helped a lot.
Probably the most important is nasu's characters and Takeuchi's design. I don't think TM would have been this popular without Takeuchi, and same without nasu's characters.
>Saber also ultimately kills Shirou more than Rin. I don't think Rin like, ever really does
Wrong, actually. They are tied in Shirou deaths. Rin are usually mercy killings.
Its retarded to bring bad ends into this though.
Where does perfection come into anything? I was simply outlining an aspect of bad writing, and why Nasu was innocent of it. If anything, your argument only supports me.
Also, you keep saying that I know nothing, but I've yet to see any counterexamples. Beyond that, I'm comparing it to English, in which word choice is paramount and synonyms are rife, so I don't really see what your problem is.
Why are you trying to talk about a different language and cultural style of writing when you have no background in it? I mean you can barely manage to talk about English writing.
It's very telling that the only people who even tried to challenge my assertion went after semantics only. It's such a shame that something so good got so ruined by it's fans and popular perception, but at least it's doing well.
>absolutely baseless assertions
Do you think this is going to make me mad? If you're going to give up, and least bow out with some grace.