yes, muh honorifics.
If you are not interested in japanese culture, why do you watch anime instead of Adventure time on nickelodeon?
I for one like to appreciate when characters start calling each other with more intimate ways when they bond, or laugh at jokes when they "speak like samurai" etc.
Why are you against honorifics, /a/?
Are you really telling me that you don't understand what nee-sama means after all these years watching anime? ONTONI?
I preferred them if given the option but I don't think its a big deal enough to care about.
But I do watch anime AND Adventure Time, faggot
>Needing to read the subs to understand the difference in the first place
>Why are you against honorifics, /a/?
/a/ is not against honorifics.
>If you are not interested in japanese culture, why do you watch anime instead of Adventure time on nickelodeon?
You can like anime without having any interest in japan outside of it.
>I for one like to appreciate when characters start calling each other with more intimate ways when they bond, or laugh at jokes when they "speak like samurai" etc.
Great, maybe you should learn Japanese so you can appreciate all the little nuances as much as you love because no matter what they're not all going to get translated into subs perfectly or well.
>Are you really telling me that you don't understand what nee-sama means after all these years watching anime? ONTONI?
Of course I do, but I have no fucking clue Anune is at all so I can sympathize with people who don't know what the honorifics mean.
And you're assuming that everyone that is watching a given anime has been watching for years, which isn't always true. In fact, It's nearly the opposite since if you were watching for years, as you say, you should either not be using subs or be able to hear the difference and discern the words yourself. You only have yourself to blame if you're on the same level of anime watching that you were at in the beginning as you are now, so you shouldn't be complaining.
Yes, Benio is one of the best.
I'm inclined to agree with you OP, but I also share Ledouche's >>124342608 sentiments.
Sure, no honorifics break my immersion because no way in hell would fellow students call each other "Mr. Hikigaya" or "Ms. Sawamura", they're addressing each other as "Hikigaya-san" and "Sawamura-san". -san is in no way always equivalent to Mr. or Ms., just in some cases. It's simply an inaccurate representation of what is being said in the scene. It's the same as not using "Sensei" when a teacher is addressed in that fashion but using their last name instead, even if it hasn't been said in the show yet. Sure, if "Yoshinoya-sensei" was said then it should be "Ms. Yoshinoya"
But, I'm willing to overlook it, considering that most fansubbers never took a Japanese class or even bothered to try and study it beyond literal translations, and that most of them don't even have English as their first language/studied English beyond a high school level.
There are actually people browsing /a/ right now, with their OS set to their native tongue and not English.
They're utterly retarded to keep in an english translation.
You need knowledge of WHAT they are for them to make sense in the first place, and if you already KNOW what they are, then you can get by by just HEARING them spoken. You don't need crammed into what is supposed to be a coherrent and correct translation effort.
I watch raws anyway
I'm not gonna get ass-mad if they're left out, but it's still a unique method of encoding information about relationships into speech that's lost because there's no English analog.
can't hear what they're saying in manga though.
>but I have no fucking clue Anune is at all so I can sympathize with people who don't know what the honorifics mean.
Because doing a quick 10 second Google search to find out what it means is so incredibly difficult. It's no one's fault but YOURS for not knowing what Aneue means (which I assume you mean by Anune) or bothering to look it up, filthy /v/ermin. Hell, even by watching anime with subs that don't bother to sub in "aneue" you can learn what it means by associating when they say "aneue" with the translation that says "Sister" in the subtitles. But, judging by your post's quality and content, I doubt you've seen more anime than there are digits on my body.
Why does it matter to you?
I wouldn't matter if the subs said Chad at that point.
Your devotion to Nipland has given you inside information. And you're ass-blasted when you get to use it?
>can't hear what they're saying in manga though.
And this is why you shouldn't read manga if you don't know japanese. Not only honorifics, but the way they write is adapted, something that you can spot when you watch anime because voices.
>If you are not interested in japanese culture
Fuck off weeaboo faggot.
I watch anime because it's fun, couldn't give a fuck about your groriious nippon delusions.
Fucking pathetic weeaboo fuck, kill yourself.
>Because doing a quick 10 second Google search to find out what it means is so incredibly difficult.
So why translate anything if everyone can just use google to figure out what they're saying?
There are actually people browsing /a/ right now, with their OS set to their native tongue and not English.
Why the fuck would they set their OS's native tongue to English if their native tongue is not English?
Ever since I learned Japanese, I can't even stand to look at subs. I end up reading them even if I don't have to, because fuck, its text in front of my eyes. And I see all the mistakes and it'll annoy me. I turn that shit off every time, or just download a raw.
I think you may be speaking to yourself when you lash out like that. Anon, I think you need to search within and find peace. It is not very nice to wish death upon your fellow Anon.
Yeah, I think pausing an anime to do a google search is 100x more immersion breaking than seeing "Sister Dearest".
And no fucking duh, I could tell that it means something higher than nee-san by the subs, but that doesn't tell me who it would be used for. It's not even in the same category as the others as the others since it's not an honorific. It's just a term by itself. And if you're complaining about subs, it's no one's fault but YOURS for not learning Japanese. Don't bite the hand that feeds you, faggot.
You're fucking kidding me, terms this archaic don't turn up in anything, especially since it's not just an honorific, but one used for an even more specific kind of person than normal.
Tell me 15, no 10 anime where that word turns up. I would even accept 5.
>You can like anime without having any interest in japan outside of it.
Not if you're a pleb faggot like yourself.
>Great, maybe you should learn Japanese so you can appreciate all the little nuances
That's exactly why there are Japanese threads on /a/. I have no idea why you wouldn't learn Japanese or be interested in Japan if you are watching anime. That makes no sense.
>terms this archaic
Anon, fucking please. Don't talk when you don't know the subject at hand.
And yes, I'd show you my JLPT L1 certificate
but you can't take the exam in my country.
Guys guys, the shitposting general is over here >>124330213
Aneue is not that rare anon. You just said it yourself that you don't know the term, so don't contradict yourself by pretending you have an idea of how often it appears or how archaic or formal it is.
Yeah, so is the way you call yourself, the way you talk to others and a whole shit ton of other things that no one treats as "sacred" as they do honorifics. It's a bunch of know-nothing retards that want to pretend they're know-it-alls.
I did the ten second google search in the 18 minutes between my first post and my second. This term doesn't show up anywhere near as often as the other honorifics she used at all and if a person was to remember the definition of a term just just hearing it once or twice in an anime instead of repeatedly, then we shouldn't even need a DJT thread.
>Yeah, so is the way you call yourself, the way you talk to others and a whole shit ton of other things
Those are easily replicated in English(except for puns and cultural/historical references). Suffixes and what they mean aren't as easy.
Also Shinpachi from Gintama. Though I only really paid attention because the honorific became the subject of a joke in an episode I was rewatching.
Say to that ore no face and not online kisama and see what happens to you.
granted I am trying to learn the language exactly so that I can get a better understanding of muh chinese cartoons but
>either learn japanese or don't read manga
and I know other things will still get lost in translation, which is why I said i don't mind if honorifics are left out- but it's still nice to see them because it's one way to retain some of that information..
I wasn't the guy you were arguing with and I didn't mean to say you oughta know the term. I personally don't give a fuck how much Japanese other people are willing to learn. It's just that your estimate of how rare the term aneue is was really bad and your sudden pretense knowledge of the term bothered me so I wanted to point that out.
I mean, you were right in the discussion as far as I'm concerned, but you said some serious bullshit in that post.
You're right, I shouldn't have assumed I knew how archaic it was just from reading that it was an archaic term.
I still stand by it not being used throughout anime anywhere near as often as the others though.
I know enough to be annoyed by shit sub, and not enough to watch without.
Life is hell.
>character refers to herself by her name
>you can clearly hear it, crisp and loud
>subs say "I"
I don't give a shit whether honorifics are there or not.
At this point, after many years of watching chinktoons and listening to meaningless ching chong nip nog words and set expressions, subtitles are nothing more but guidelines to me.
Sure, it's nice to have proper clean subtitles without any mistakes, but I can do with shitty subtitles or no subtitles at all too.
What do you think is the purpose of anime?
a) To entertain
b) To teach lessons about the Japanese language and culture
I'll give you a hint: it's not B. As such, there is no reason why someone couldn't like anime but not really be interested in Japanese culture or language otherwise. And if you really want to learn about Japan and Japanese, then anime is not really the optimal way to go about that. So why should the translations cater to you by leaving random shit untranslated? So you can pretend like you actually knew Japanese despite needing subs in the first place?
And that's exactly how it should be. Referring to yourself in third person in Japanese is generally an indication of childishness, but in English it's something that basically only a retard would do. The correct way to handle it is to make the character sound childish, not to idiotically carry over something that has different connotations in the target language and would thus distort the meaning.
>a) To entertain
FUN is not allowed here, son.
>not to idiotically carry over something that has different connotations in the target language and would thus distort the meaning.
And bringing over things that literally don't exist in the source language is better?
7 years and you still don't know the language?
I'm "against" them (I actually don't really care) because I'm not a faggot and because I actually do understand 99% of the audio track and don't need them in my fucking subs, which I don't really read anyway. And if the TL does his job properly you won't need your'rerer honorifics to understand these jokes and subtleties you're talking about.
TL;DR you're a faggot, please apply yourself.
Yet you think it's possible to replicate the difference between personal pronouns like 僕, 俺 and 私 in English? What's worse, you think that "the way you talk to others", which I assume refers to 丁寧語, 謙譲語 and 尊敬語, are also easily replicable in English?
I'm forced to question how much Japanese you managed to learn in those 7 years. Or maybe you have a mastery of the English language that goes beyond my understanding that allows you to use different first personal pronouns in different situations according to politeness and gender while still sounding like normal, modern conversation.
At this point I don't care anymore. I've watched enough anime that I can pick up on the honorifics and their differences, so I'm fine whether it's translated or not.
However, my two cents are that the purpose of subtitles is to understand the dialogue in another language. Even if anime veterans know the culture well enough, "good" subs will translate everything, even if it means it must be translated poorly.
I think honorifics should be translated.
The problem is pros and fansubbers all too often just strike them from the script or replace them with proper names or even more hackneyed localizations.
They're not to be ignored. Just fucking translate them.
The correct answer is to read into the situation. What are the characters saying in this particular situation? What are their feelings towards each other, what are their normal relations. Change the tone of the sentence if one character is using a reverent way of addressing the other. That different languages have more words for some things than in another language is not a new problem. There is no one for one mind map that you can call upon in that situation
Just ignoring them isn't the right answer, but leaving them in isn't either. Translate! It's not always a purely mechanical 1 for 1 substitution job, if it was, computer programs alone would suffice.
And this is why I only watch CrunchyRoll rips.
How come Tadaima isn't complained about as much?
Hell, there are tons of things that don't have anything close to a definite translation, and honorifics are close to the bottom of the totem pole in that regard.
Don't you guys hate it when someone posts a screenshot with subs but the character's mouth is closed? Like, holy fuck, if he'/she's speaking, then take the screenshot with his/her mouth open.
>read into the situation. What are the characters saying in this particular situation? What are their feelings towards each other, what are their normal relations. Change the tone of the sentence if one character is using a reverent way of addressing the other.
That's hardly what I'd call easily replicable. It clearly takes a lot of care, thought, knowledge of Japanese and ability in composition on the English language. All of which most fansubbers and scanlators don't tend to have, resulting in a mess that's completely off the mark in terms of the what the original intended to convey.
Every other language translation does that.
My language has distinct terms for aunts and uncles from either parents side.
I'm not gonna slap my "mom's brother" in place of uncle unless it's needed.
When did I complain? I gave guidelines for how proper translations should be. Y'know, because I'm perfectly capable of making some? And yes, if you want them proper it actually takes work. Something most fansubbers are rather unwilling to do it seems.
>mfw /a/ HONTO NI is against honorifics
>mfw OP was right
I don't even know anymore
If you need honorifics to fully appreciate anime then why don't translations of Japanese literature keep them?
Lots of languages have things like gendered words or different ways of saying addressing people too. And every language has idioms and odd terms based on culturally specific things. Tell me, what makes the Japanese language, specifically the Japanese language in anime and video games, so sacred that you need to preserve it?
Actually, honorifics are quite commonly kept in their original language in translations of literature.
I see "Mr." and "Monsieur" all the time in translations of English and French novels, they're very rarely translated as "Herr", which doesn't carry the same meaning anyway due to honorifics being less common here and thus seen as more stiff and formal than in most other languages.
Why not add a translator's note instead of using variations of sister which don't fit the original meaning?
Would that be a decent compromise even though it might look weird in action?
Because translator's notes are garbage and just clutter shit up. They can MAYBE be warranted if some joke containing some obscure reference is made, but otherwise the translators should just translate what is happening to the rest of their ability. Good translation blends in so well with the actual product you're watching that you don't think about it, shit translation reminds itself of its existence every sentence of the way.
>I see "Mr." and "Monsieur" all the time in translations of English and French novels, they're very rarely translated as "Herr", which doesn't carry the same meaning anyway due to honorifics being less common here and thus seen as more stiff and formal than in most other languages.
I assume you're Scandinavian then, because Herr is used quite commonly in German. We still keep Mr. and Monsieur, etc. in translations and German dubs even, probably to give the viewer an idea that they're actually supposed to be talking English, set the atmosphere and so on. It's not uncommon in English dubs either, e.g. when you see Nazi soldiers they still use addresses such as "Herr Oberst" or something, despite talking English otherwise, often also being given a silly accent. The only people who get mad at honorifics are nerds who are in denial of being nerds and afraid their normalfag friends would look down on them for watching something so "Japanese" and thus want for everything to look as normal as possible, despite the fact that leaving in certain intricacies of the language is completely common when translating things throughout the world.
Maybe it would just be best if the TRANSLATORS TRANSLATED in the TRANSLATION and everyone that cared about the original can either use their ears, learn Japanese, or fuck off.
>I assume you're Scandinavian then, because Herr is used quite commonly in German.
Correct. Honorifics in the Norwegian language is largely a thing of the past. The only use I can think of where it wouldn't come off as theatrically archaic would be in military settings, where it's common to address superiors as "Herr oberst" etc.
Most of the series the only thing used is "Nee-sama", which is translated as "Sister". This particular gag with a barrage of sister variations shows up twice or thrice throughout the entire series. The translations for all the variations might not be most optimal, but they get the main meaning of the gag across - that Benio has made Kobeni call her multiple variations of sister over the years. And that ultimately works out much nicer than inserting a wall of text explaining the words or just leaving any potential viewer pondering what this barrage of untranslated words mean.
And if you're the kind of person who gets upset over DARING to translate them, then hey, the second subtitle track is always there for you.
Retarded cartel translator pls. Newfags who care obviously can google "japanese honorifics" and read that shit once and for all, and newfags who don't care won't care either way.
>Commie translating Ilya's "Onii-chan" to Mister
It's a wrong translation on all accounts, both meaning and plot-wise
They go full fucking retard way too often because they're the subbing equivalent to a Texan hillbilly, having to erase all foreign things from his sight no matter what it takes
>It's a wrong translation on all accounts, both meaning and plot-wise
If we're talking about FSN, it was very much the correct translation. Little girls call unrelated older guys "onii-san/chan" in Japanese, and "mister" in English. Ilya was playing that kind of role in relation to Shirou,
and it couldn't be "big brother" anyway since she's older than Shirou.
Maybe you should chalk up on your honorifics if you can't even understand all the meanings of something as simple as "onii-chan".
Why this post didn't get many replies? Didn't you love Daiz, /a/?
Under that logic, everyone should just go learn Japanese. Subs aren't for faggots who kinda sorta wanna learn a little japanese. They're translations for people who don't know Japanese, and in translations, things should be translated.
Are you retarded or is this some kind of high level meta trolling?
I hate when the staff starts their own discussion using those notes.
TLN : She's kawaii~
Editor here : You're right, but I prefer Silver
Typesetter here : Silver a shit, Orange a best
QC : Orange a crippled, Silver a retard, Pink is love
Encoder : Black anyone?
>Are you retarded or is this some kind of high level meta trolling?