>>124583077 In my opinion the author is emphasising the whole martyr thing way too much and is making the whole conflict - which actually is a non-issue - look like huge drama. The author has a good eye for social fabric, but he didn't manage to build up this conflict really well. The problem solving club as the primary motor behind simply doesn't work that well when it comes to more complex issues simply because it's not believable for people to actually seek personal advice from a bunch of social misfits. And the coolest guy in town bowing to some loser and "respecting" him isn't really that believable either.
The only thing this season has done is just absolutely cement Yui as best girl. Which is definitely enough to keep me watching. She is the only ray of sunshine in an otherwise dark despair filled dungeon of a show. Even the imouto has gotten depressing.
>>124584393 Come on, you should know the DK shit is just forced beyond some vague similarities between 8-man and Batman. The rest is just forcing it. Best to ignore it lest you invite baneposting and THEN WHO'S CIA?
>>124583764 There are people who care about him that don't like him doing it. And if he doesn't care about those others, why does he sacrifice himself? They sure as hell don't want to see him make an ass of himself to solve their problems.
>>124583077 That's an easy to miss thing there. It wasn't an "omg, fake confession, dat self sacrifice" kind of thing. At least that part wasn't as important. The issue is what that decision did to his club, the tension it created between him and Yukino and the fact it is breaking the club apart. And the reason that tension was created was not "self-sacrifice" but the fact he picked a superficial solution to protect the sensitive superficiallity of the relationships around Hina. The issue with that is that it betrayed the common belief they had with Yukino (the one he mentions in the next scene when he is picking up his bike) and thus the trust she had in him.
>>124583948 At the end of the day, Yahari is a wish-fullfilment LN that borders on harem territory. It's not exactly surprising that the drama would be blown into ridiculous proportions, especially when it's the premise. Furthermore, having the popular 'jock' nice guy actually being a complete failure and douchebag is par for the course since the protagonist is on the other end of the spectrum and there has to be a 'villain'.
That said, I'm hoping the author doesn't go and make out Hayato to be a full retard/evil character, but rather that he can get over his issues together with 8man. Regarding with how much emphasis there is on Hachiman though, this probably won't happena nd you shouldn't expect anything else.
>>124584594 > it betrayed the common belief they had with Yukino (the one he mentions in the next scene when he is picking up his bike) and thus the trust she had in him. I must have been high when I watched that part, what are you talking about?
>>124583948 >And the coolest guy in town bowing to some loser and "respecting" him isn't really that believable either. That's if you think the coolest guy is one dimensional, as in the only aspect of Hayama is his popularity. He's not just popular, he's also incredibly sympathetic. His awareness just isn't broad and that's why he didn't see people hating 8man for no good reason until now.
>because it's not believable for people to actually seek personal advice from a bunch of social misfits That's why they didn't get get requests from none other than social misfits in the beginning. Then their reputation got better as a result. Now, that Yui and Yukinon are not social misfits and that the club has got things done, it makes sense for the more popular people to ask for help.
>In my opinion the author is emphasising the whole martyr thing way too much and is making the whole conflict - which actually is a non-issue - look like huge drama. It's forced drama. It's the natural response people who are close to a guy who don't like seeing him act like he doesn't care about his social standing to the point where he's willing to be a martyr.
This guy is somehow right regarding your post. >>124584009 Albeit you're not really using buzzwords, you're trying to put things into labels to make it easier to understand. The problem with that is people tend to be go to the extreme and view things only in labels. A lot of people do with with books, shows and any other story-telling medium.
>>124584651 >At the end of the day, Yahari is a wish-fullfilment LN that borders on harem territory. It's not exactly surprising that the drama would be blown into ridiculous proportions, especially when it's the premise. Furthermore, having the popular 'jock' nice guy actually being a complete failure and douchebag is par for the course since the protagonist is on the other end of the spectrum and there has to be a 'villain'. I'm not sure whether it's out of place for Hayato to take the role of a villain character; what bothers me more is how the author glorifies Hachiman by making everyone around him recognise how super awesome he supposedly is. Certainly the whole thing is limited to a handful of characters who supposedly are rather "special" in their own way, but it still conflicts with his supposed loser status that he's given so much attention. In the beginning, the author was more eager to put Hachiman down, have the world ridicule him and question his views, which was quite refreshing. The whole melodrama, blowing these petty problems to huge proportions, doesn't serve the show well.
Don't get me wrong - I enjoy the show, but it was more entertaining while it was still more grounded in realism - when Hachiman wasn't yet the great problem solver admired by his peers.
>>124584773 Hachiman is in some ways, exactly like Hayama. They come from different social backgrounds and their methods are different, but they tend to lack a lot of awareness about themselves and like to stroke their own egos to justify their lifestyles.
>>124584905 Well, you have to step back and also understand that Yahari is a wish-fulfillment story and 8man is the protagonist. If he doesn't climb up the social ladder, then there wouldn't be much of a plot. And to be fair, he really is great at solving social problems so it's only natural people come to respect him.
Now, the thing that I find issue with is how all of these 'problems' as of late have become giant melodramatic issues like you are saying. I don't how else to handle it, since raising the stakes is typical, but it really does make him come off as very unrealistic when the story emphasizes the social suicide thing.
>>124584782 It's pretty much all he says in the scene where he pulls out the bike, changes per translation so no point posting it. He doesn't name the belief and refers to the one he shared it with as "a certain person", but that's what it means there.
Btw, get used to things not being named, and people being "a certain person", it happens a lot and it often just expects you to get it.
>>124584761 It's a known fact people who are self loathing are altruisic to the point of self destruction.
People who hate who they are try to do good to the point it's not just above and beyond, it's beyond what anyone should do.
It makes them feel better about themselves.
8man does it in an interesting way. He fixes things altruistically while also making himself a social paraiah. Most people who are self loathing do it so people will like them or that they can like themselves.
He does it presumably because it makes him feel better about who he is, and that who he is can be useful, and not a complete waste while also keeping people away from him.
>>124584773 He was mildly relatable for the first episode, but at this point he's just being a major cock for bragging to everyone about how alone he is. Almost like how modern teenage girls go "lol I'm such a nerd", he's not a true loner. A real loner would keep his fucking mouth shut and not care about stupid social problems, kind of like Tomoko but less autistic.
>>124584882 >He's not just popular, he's also incredibly sympathetic. His awareness just isn't broad and that's why he didn't see people hating 8man for no good reason until now. You think he's unaware of what happens around him? I don't think so at all - he's proven to be quite aware of the things that happen around him. He plays an innocent act, but he is by no means unaware. And I don't think he's acting out of pure sympathy either.
>Then their reputation got better as a result. Now, that Yui and Yukinon are not social misfits and that the club has got things done, it makes sense for the more popular people to ask for help. No, it makes no sense at all. The whole premise makes absolutely no sense and the "problem solving club" is a bad plot motor. Teenagers of all people wouldn't ask their peers to handle their personal problems.
>It's forced drama. It's the natural response people who are close to a guy who don't like seeing him act like he doesn't care about his social standing to the point where he's willing to be a martyr. The issue is that it's not a "natural" response at all, simply because his social standing hasn't really taken much of a hit given that he wasn't popular to begin with, not even his classmates remember his name - that's not what's being "hated" is like, that's what people not giving a fuck is like. Their response is too big given how minor the issues are. The author spins this martyrdom story but doesn't back it up sufficiently.
>>124584773 I don't blame him for thinking that. After living a life where everyone ignores him or treats him like shit it just makes sense to have a steel like guard up at all times.
And these bitches can't be truly honest with themselves, they are still highschool girls. Their reputation comes first before 8man. He shouldn't be alone until one the girls flat out says they are his friends. But that would be totally, like, uncool right!?
"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." The real loner in the school is the guy who doesn't talk to anyone and is so unnoticeable that no one talks to him either. People hate 8man and that's a strong emotion, he's on more than a few peoples minds daily.
>>124585120 >Most people who are self loathing do it so people will like them or that they can like themselves. Hachiman clearly does it for the latter seeing as he's managed to go through enough mental gymnastics to convince himself that social constructs are a waste of time. It's just a positive feedback loop for him to claim that he's 'alone'.
>>124585043 >Well, you have to step back and also understand that Yahari is a wish-fulfillment story and 8man is the protagonist. If he doesn't climb up the social ladder, then there wouldn't be much of a plot. I completely disagree. You look at this from the perspective of some American 80s or 90s teenager movie, where the "loser" ends up becoming popular, besting the mean jock bully, getting the girl, etc. - yet the story doesn't need to be this way, not to mention that in order to be wish-fulfilment it doesn't necessarily need to result in social success. Hikki having cute girls around him who become attracted to him is already more than enough wish-fulfilment, it doesn't really need to end with him also becoming popular.
>And to be fair, he really is great at solving social problems so it's only natural people come to respect him. Is is really? He's got a good eye for how things tie together, but he's too eager to break things. e.g. when it came to the issue with Rumi, without Yui's intervention things wouldn't have gone so well. Also, there's the issue that simply being good at a thing doesn't necessarily mean that people will respect you. He was good during the first season too, yet people didn't suck his dick all time. That was refreshing. The story revolves too much around him now, with everyone being too focussed on him alone, which breaks with the whole premise. To me it seems like the author has come to like his own character too much.
>>124585199 >You think he's unaware of what happens around him? I think he means Hayama can't see the more negative aspects of interaction like Hachiman can. That's why he never goes to the extremes and always tries 'safe' courses of action.
>No, it makes no sense at all. Agreed. Granted, I haven't been to Japan but I have been to Singapore and Vietnam and teenagers don't just ask others to solve their problems, at least not the type that we see in the show.
>The author spins this martyrdom story but doesn't back it up sufficiently. How so? Hachiman went from being unnoticed to being actively hated by people for his actions.
>>124584905 >The whole melodrama, blowing these petty problems to huge proportions, doesn't serve the show well. The show exaggerates the facial expressions which gives the sense that it 's melodrama. The drama is a little exaggerated but the core aspect of it is realistic. The problem isn't petty, because it is related to someone they care about. Before 8man, Yui and Yukinon weren't enjoying highschool. One simply didn't have anyone interesting to talk to and the other felt like the friend to tried to hard to stay in the group. Seeing a guy who has helped them be more "social" act like a social martyr will make them feel bad. It's overblown from Yukinon's perspective because she also hates superficial people. And 8man is acting like one.
>>124585199 >You think he's unaware of what happens around him? He's unaware of less popular people. This come with being really popular. He's not dimwitted.
>And I don't think he's acting out of pure sympathy either.
All his late actions indicate that he is very sympathetic, he even hates acting like a dick.
>makes no sense >Teenagers of all people wouldn't ask their peers This is where it's assumed that the premise --- teens would ask help from their peers --- is accepted. From that premise the previous argument you replied to follows.
>issue is that it's not a "natural" response at all You contradict yourself. He wasn't popular but he wasn't hated either. Being hated is worse than not being known.
>>124585433 > it seems like the author has come to like his own character too much. Fucking Mortal Kombat's Ed Boon has this problem extremely bad with Scorpion. The pretty much have ruined the character over the last two games.
why the fuck do the nips all care about popularity like fucking sakes. once you get into college nobody gives a rat ass about you. The same for the social world, I knew people who were loners in high school and are now thriving in both college and the real world.
>>124585513 >Being hated is worse than not being known. Now now, don't be so hasty. It depends entirely on the person and I've known quite a few people who would rather be known as 'the bad guy' then completely ignored.
>>124585482 >How so? Hachiman went from being unnoticed to being actively hated by people for his actions. I don't see him being hated. That's what Hayato, Yui and Yukino claim, but I don't see it being backed up. He doesn't seem more ostracised than before and it doesn't even look like people hold much of a grudge. The Ebina thing worked out flawlessly. Neither Ebina nor Tobe hold a grudge but both realised that he was helping them. Where exactly is the problem? I could believe it if the show bothered to actually emphasise this, but thus far things have worked out well.
>>124585509 Shirou is a pretty good example of someone with that twisted mentality.
He gives and gives because it fills the void he feels. That self loathing, the thought he's not wort being loved, and the only value he has is to help people even at the cost of himself, because he doesn't value himself.
He wants value from other people because he can't give it to himself.
Where 8man and he are different is that 8man's self loathing makes him want to isolate himself. Shiro wants that love and care, and sees the value of friendships even if he feels he's worthless beyond what he can provide for them.
Shiro is 8man if 8man wanted friends to combat the crippling lonliness and sadness he feels inside.
We joke about Shirou being an idiiot, but he purposely ignores any kind of romantic notions because it makes him feel umcomfortable that anyone would find anything about him lovable beyond his superficial usefulness.
>>124585302 >"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." Love is a fine thing and an emotion. Indifference is a fine thing and an emotion (apathy). Hate is not a fine thing and is also an emotion. Therefore, the opposite of love is hate.
>>124585513 Well in a sense, being hated is much better than not being known. At the very least you remember that one guy you hate right? Hell, having one guy show up to your funeral even if just to celebrate is better than an empty room.
>>124585513 >Seeing a guy who has helped them be more "social" act like a social martyr will make them feel bad. I can understand the reasoning but I don't think it applies to the given cases, simply because they were too minor. Had he walked naked on stage in front of all people, goose stepping and performing the Nazi salute or something - yes, maybe then that would be a fitting reaction. But what he has done has always been rather low profile, with not that many people involved, it has often worked out for everyone with people not holding a grudge against him and in the case of Ebina and Tobe all parties being involved that what he did was for the best. How would that have harmed his reputation? It seems more that Yui and Yukino were upset about hearing him confess to another girl rather than worrying about his reputation. And Hayato seems to have his own personal issues going on.
>>124584980 One of my many, many worries about Yui. As much as I want her to win the 8bowl I feel like it's largely just a reactionary desire for her to get what she wants.
The thing that keeps me going is mostly the thought that, once 8man matures and grows out of this social-pariah, I-hate-everyone thing, maybe they will be a better match. 8man's (moderated) cynicism and Yui's overwhelming optimism would make them good foils for each other's faults.
>>124585097 >tfw what feels like a lifetime ago, you knew this feel it really kills to know you'll never have Yui lean down and whisper reassuring nonsense into your ear while she caresses your world-weary head when that's the one thing you need most in the world right now.
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