>>124960814 So, just because she wasn't raped, while she might have suffered many other kinds of hardship to become the worthy successor of the Tohsaka, invalidates all her words? Nice strawman, there. Just like ignoring all the routes that led there.
>>124961305 I liked both but I enjoyed more homicidal Sakura too, dunno why /a/ has this strange policy that if someone is bad then it's a shit character. Well maybe because they get mad she attacks self-insert protag, or because she wormed their waifu
>>124961156 Rin says at other point in the game that she had it mostly easy though. She was just being tsun there and came across as a bit harsh because Rin is prone to make blunders in moments like this.
>>124960814 Urgh your point? She cries at being raped. So did Sakura. How does that make Sakura a better person? If anything she is worse for the fact that her only out is to make her sister endure the same pain she had to life through. Good job Sakura!
>>124961156 I don't think you fully appreciate the frequency and severity of the rape in question. Consider the fact that she was like 6 years old in F/Z and already lost her virginity to Zouken and was being thoroughly broken in by Byakuya. 10 years of being a cum dumpster to people who wouldn't think twice about making you vanish if you raise the slightest fuss. Unless Rin really was pleasing old men for money, she can't really even begin to compare her training to that of Sakura's. Not to mention Rin's entire life consisted of voluntary decisions. Zouken was not going to let Sakura walk away from that.
>>124961680 >Kotomine is ero-sensei route. With lots of long class lectures in his deep manly voice. >Cu is delinquent bad boy route with lots of eroscenes. >Avenger is free-spirited otouto route which has a BDSM scene for no reason at all Could work.
Nobody's arguing how evil characters can and should be good characters (as far as writing is concerned, something I however feel Sakura can't say for herself), the point is that anon there was claiming Sakura to be better (don't even know in which meaning of the word) just because Rin suffered from being raped by the shadow (something every fucking human being would have, including Sakura who did when it happened to her). Go figure.
>>124962192 It's because Japan has a tendency to market anything that could interest men specifically for them. If there are het sex scenes, it's gonna be targeted towards guys usually even if women show interest.
>>124961617 Don't forget how she had Shirou trace random priceless artifacts and items to sell to human pawn shops. Rin better be glad the mage association packs dirty as fuck because I'm pretty shirou that's totally illegal and stuff.
>>124963905 >Would you still love Shinji if he raped his adoptive brother? That;s some gay shit right there. Probably, but I'd have to suck 10 dicks to feel less gay for saying that.
>>124963902 I'm more sympathetic towards men I suppose, I rarely find any piece of literature where males are at the source of suffering to the people around them whereas I can find women being insecure and suffering far too easily.
>>124960569 Rin was so retarded in HF > let's be a total bitch to my sister, to a point she just want me add, and until the very end continues to bash her > And finally let's commit suicide just before killing her and add add we loved her to the beginning
I'm anything but a Sakurafag, but come the fuck on, just how was she supposed to know.
>>124961305 I thought I was the only one. I agree. Dark Sakura was an enjoyable character in that she actually did something instead of laying around like a doormat. She was powerful, killed her oppressors after obtaining said power, and she was terrifying.
Rin was all "I don't care, go ahead and be a monster for all I care, the feelings of someone cornered and weak don't mean shit to me"
Now in the other ending Sakura would eventually see there was something beyond this cruel taunt, but in this ending Alter got in the way of Rin being able to realize her own feelings and hug it out, so Sakura indeed went along with it and became a monster.
>>124964423 >you can't blame Sakura, she was going mad because of Angry Manjew >blame Shinji, he was obviously the most sane person in F/SN and can take account for his actions despite the VN saying that he's a nutcase also fucked over by Zouken If anyone is to blame it's Zouken, not Shinji nor Sakura. It's all his fault in the first place.
>>124964559 Maybe the entire point of the route is that it was no ones fault, they were all good people that Fate just misled one way or another as they lost their way. For most of them, they could still be saved somewhat.
Even Zouken found some small redemption in his last moments as he remembered his true soul.
I would of liked heaven's feel better if it wasn't for the shadow and it's use of random humans for lunch and dinner. It doesn't give Sakura a lot of sympathy points when she's suppose to be a nice girl who don't wanna hurt anybody yet she's the cause of thousands of deaths. It'd be like Iiya going around using Beserker to kill off random humans just because she hates seeing happy people. As far as I know, none of the Tsukihime heroines killed off random humans and didn't give a shit like Sakura does either.
>>124964720 She didn't but I was at least hoping she'd at least reflect on all those deaths at the end but nope, she doesn't care, Rin doesn't care and neither does shirou, it's all sex in various places and let's all go watch the cherry blossoms while holding hands and skipping. It left a bad taste in my mouth. The normal ending where Shirou dies and Sakura is even more broken as well as Rin being the only one able to get the fuck on with her life seemed much more in character for everyone. HF's true is kinda like UBW's good to me.
So how fucked is Zouken by end of UBW's true? There will be no more grail wars because Saber destroyed the other grail, no reason to keep his own grail around either and I'm not sure he'll even remember his body surf plan . Seems like that route is the better ending for sakura and she didn't even have to kill anyone.
Ironically, Femme Fatale was where she just kept them inside her. Which was why it was named darkly the "harem end".
As for the topic at hand, Sakura was partly at fault for her bitterness, but the key point was that she held out against a curse that normally turns people into gibbering masses of insanity or just liquifies both humans and heroic spirits alike. Having your soul directly linked to the main body is no joke, and anyone who tries to diminish it as Sakura jist being crazy missed the entire point of the various relationships at work here.
The theme was that both sisters had fault for their estrangment, and it unfortunately took a lot to resolve it when a hour long talk could have abated much of the problem. Rin didn't bother to try to accept Sakura's olive branch when given, and Sakura caved in on her years of resentment (it took a lot for that to happen, but it still happened).
Any sane person would just say that both are at fault and suggest family counseling, of which there sadly is none for these types of incidents, because magi are kind of twisted like that and cause most of the issues in their society.
Now, what if Dark Sakura wasn't so possessive and tried to create a harem for Shirou? What if she took control of Saber, mind-broke Rin & such to make them obedient to Shirou's every sexual desire? I remember Sakura being Rider's master & Dark Sakura taking control of Caster too.
>>124966186 That seems like it would of been an interesting story, why hasn't nasu written it? In fact, if they ever went with a canon route, UBW's has plenty set up for it while Fate and HF's seem pretty much over.
That end just says that he is satisfied with himself and doesn't care about magecraft anymore. But fundamentally, he is still the same.
He hasn't bothered to tell Rin and Shirou about the Matous, because it would incriminate him. He gets to feel better about himself and get off scot-free without doing anything. Sakura was already going to forgive him, even if all he did was make a passing, "Yeah, sorry". Same in Hollow, he walks away with nary a demand for an apology.
HF still has Sakura and Rin looking for a better body for Shirou(though he says he doesn't need it), Sakura retraining with an old church bishop, Rin learning things about the Second, Shirou figuring out how to work around the things with his body, and Rider living a human's life. Lots of potential there.
That ten years later thing seems more like an ova than anything. I'd rather they dive into more material on the endings to UBW, and leave that as a side story.
Do you guys think the HF anime should adapt the normal end instead of the True End?
Shirou sacrificing himself is more emotionally impactful, it's heroic but bittersweet and makes you tear up, better written narrative-wise. Meanwhile the happy ending doesn't move you emotionally as much even if it's "happy".
>>124967015 >it's heroic No it's not, It's selfishness in it's purist form, Shirou wanted to die to punish himself for letting all those people die in his quest to save Sakura, never mind how bad that would make Sakura feel or Taiga. God, Taiga, I can't imagine what excuse they gave to her to explain that Shirou is dead, if they gave her one at all. The true heroic act in Heaven's feel, The ONLY heroic act in that stream of stupidity is that homulculs doll deciding to save a man she barely interacted with and only knew for a few days from certain death.
You're being heavily biased here. Ilya didn't need to sacrifice herself either, and left Shirou a wreck, blaming himself for her dying, when she could have told him the truth of the grail system awhile ago and prevented the events of the route. She even kills him (see the "Battle for the Holy Grail" bad end where she kills him and uses Shirou's soul to blackmail Sakura, who isn't aware of her role as grail), even when they have mostly reconciled.
If you are gonna make thoughtful character analysis, you have to understand the flaws of all the characters and their mentalities toward each other. Saying they are just stupid is wrong, even my using that example for Ilya there, I recognize it was the indoctrination of the Einzberns that caused her to act that way. Not as an excuse, but to understand it is more than "this person is stupid and crazy".
There is a modicum of selfishness in that route, but no more than was already shown throughout the game. Shirou always sacrifices himself for others around him forgetting how people would feel or whether that sacrifice would be worth it, and the point (which was what led him to hesitate for a moment which led to the True End when he was in front of the grail) was to learn to love and forgive himself, and put more thought into his actions.
Zouken trying to change her element only partially worked, because she can force herself to use her original element to the detriment of her body (see Hollow). It's the binding attribute of the Matou that comes into the equation that works with Imaginary Numbers to affect invisible certainties outside this plane. Basically the Astral Plane.
For example, in Hollow, she uses a hybrid of her Tohsaka borne Imaginary Numbers/Matou Binding to restrict the Avenger corpses by using her Shadow as a medium, skewer them, and suck them into the void.
Imaginary Numbers takes them and sends them to a dimension outside of time. You saw it in some bad ends when the Shadow pulled Shirou in and he would be there for hours, when it was only seconds on the outside.
So think of it like a magecraft version of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.
>>124968715 >in Hollow, she uses a hybrid of her Tohsaka borne Imaginary Numbers/Matou Binding to restrict the Avenger corpses by using her Shadow as a medium, skewer them, and suck them into the void. Nope in Hollow she uses the Shadow aka Angra Mainyu.
>>124969215 Daily reminder that Tokiomi was the biggest fuckup to ever live and sent Sakura to the Matous instead of the Edelfelts. We could have had two busty and gorgeous OHOHOHOs instead of just one.
>>124964671 Shadow wasn't Sakura's will, during the entire time it was eating people she wasn't aware of its existence at all. Yet people act like it's born of her desires or control
She thought it was a series of dreams like in Tsukihime, except unlike Shiki she wasn't watching the news and didn't realize "Huh, that place looks familiar.. almost like that place from that dream" so in her mind they were just dreams.
When she realized that this was real, the random killings stopped as she took a hold of the power herself and reigned it in. Ilya even says that's part of the reason that she took hold of the power, in addition to the more selfish reasons. This is rather far from something she wanted; this is someone waking up one day and realizing they were possessed by a monster that used their body to do strange things.
It's the same situation as Ciel in a way, or maybe SHIKI.
>>124969312 >be Tohsaka in the 3rd HGW >seduce Edelfelt sister >steal their crest and add it to my own >years later >son breeds two superbabbies >Edelfelts still salty >son to choose a magus family to house 2nd child >give her to the family who hate your ass and would probably brainwash her to kill and end the Tohsaka Family or >give her to a family who doesn't exactly hate your ass Giving her to the Edelfelts would have been even more retarded than just giving her to Zouken.
It looks like we need to update things a bit. Sakura's thing in Hollow is forcing to the surface the long. You remember how it says a mage can't use magecraft without a foundation right?
Nasu explains this as "black circuits that produce a shadow". Just like Shirou's circuits are made to make swords. It has nothing to do with AM, Sakura's natural powers use a shadow as a medium. That was why AM was incarnated like it was, because her powers are focused in that way.
What happened is she forced that part of herself, which is presently screwed up thanks to Zouken, to the surface and mitigates the damage with her mystic code, which prevents her powers from going crazy. It's like how Shirou ends up awakening the circuits he hasn't used in a long time, but worse, because she was used in magical experiments.
Sakura keeps the ribbon Rin gave her for eleven years and longs for her even I'm the shittiest circumstances. They couldn't brainwash her. Plus the Edelfelt are blood connected to her, so her powers would be at their peak.
I want it just so I can see Luvia and Rin fighting over who is the best onee-chan. And the three end up joining the two families down the road.
>>124969974 It's just a regular ribbon, they could burn it if they want. Besides Zouken never brainwashed Sakura so why would you think that they can't? >Plus the Edelfelt are blood connected to her, so her powers would be at their peak. It also has that despised Tohsaka blood inside her too you know, they'll just brainwash her into a puppet like any regular Magi Family would. She isn't getting any special treatment.
>>124970902 >It would be nigh impossible to break that out of her. There are methods that make that much easier, Eldelfelts have access to those methods, Zouken had access to those methods too. Just because Zouken didn't doesn't mean Eldelfelts won't.
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