Yo, so I just finished Shinsekai Yori and I gotta admit, it was pretty good. What I don't get it is the constant spouting of "Squealer did nothing wrong" that goes on here. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, Squealer was impressive on how calculated he was at some points. He certainly takes the first prize in my book for conniving little cunt, that's for sure. Like how he managed to orchestrate so many events to play out in his favor, tricking the MC group into doing his dirty work,
getting two of the MC's to get busy, then killing them to use their child as a means to fight against the humans, not to mention stealing the kids from the orphanage, as well as various other things. But I like him as much as I like Senator Armstrong, especially since they had similar morals and endgoals. He had good values and he wanted to change things for his people for the better, in a way, but he had a fucked up way of doing it.
Thing is, I don't blame him for wanting to rebel. No one should want to live underneath a boot all their life. But the way he went about it was just plain scummy. Sending most of his troops to their death and not even caring about them.
Killing the MC's friends after forcing them to have a child to then use to kill everyone they cared about. Not to mention lying to their friends saying he'd help them escape.Even after getting his trump card, he had, at most, a 50/50 chance of winning. Especially when you only have guns and crossbows and you're going up against literal super-humans. It's like going all in with a Full House against an opponent that can change their hand at the last second to be a Royal Flush.
In the end though, he, in my humble opinion, didn't deserve the treatment he got. I especially felt that after they explained the origin of the Queerats. Shit was majorly fucked up. Was his heart in the right place? Absolutely. But the way he went about it was, to quote Raiden here, "bat-shit insane".
Overall, a fun experience. Squealer was the best developed character, while Kiroumaru was best character in general. 8.5/10
What did you think of it, /a/?
If not for that lion queerat, the human race would have gone extinct. That weapon was unstoppable for humans because of that feedback nonsense. IF not for the lion sacrificing himself and causing that mental breakdown, Squealer would have won.
That said, Squealer did everything wrong. Sudden blitz with an unstoppable weapon is one thing, but he could have kept up the subtlety far better. I mean, train the weapon to act like a normal human, then have it attack out of nowhere in a crowded place. He did this ONE time, and after completely blowing his cover. If he had stayed hidden as the unseen mastermind, he would have won. Instead, he went full retard and let himself be known as the bad guy.
The humans were assholes and shitbags, sure, but Squealer deserved what he got.
He literally did nothing wrong.
The only reason he is perceived as a villain is the fact that he is not the protagonist. Throughout the entire series, all of his actions were justifiable.
He was a great villain, but he was absolutely a total cunt and clearly cared more about his personal power than the well being of his people or any other such bullshit people try to say.
fucked up? He came from a history of people enslaved and genetically altered to be inferior what sort of better way would there have been? If suddenly flies wanted to be recognized as citizens of the planet and proved capable of cognitive intelligence comparable to humans would you suddenly stop swatting at them?
The series was watery at points having made an engaging world and history that was more interesting than the story told for most of the time. The queerat uprising was probably the only redeeming thing about the lite novel and subsequent anime.
Squeeler was just doing what any sane intelligent creature does when realizing persecution over eras they do whatever they can wherever they can to try and make things better. Sure it was one sided and in favor of the queerats but if you found out you came from a long line of people who used to be eaten as cattle by the ancestors of your neighbors you'd probably have some hard feelings left over. Assuming of course in this hypothetical scenario your neighbors still interacted with you in a positive and cordial manner but reminded you of how they couldn't wait for you to come of age and that your father and older brother went on a life long trip to support your family around that same age.
The series was 3/10 at best but the world building and the culmination of the final story arc redeemed some if not most of it. This is why people have fond memories of the series ignoring all the fuckery that went on at other times.
he gets transmuted via PSI powers into a constantly pained living conscious tumor to atone for his "wrong doings" against a race of demigods.
Reminder the queerats and these demigods both descended from humans and the queerats were forced into genetic mutation to become human animal hybrids to work as slaves for the demigods leisure.
Morally a lot of things were really fucked up but he wanted to build a better world for his people. Just another reminder that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
>But the way he went about it was, to quote Raiden here, "bat-shit insane".
Why? They were in every way inferior to the magic users. He had to use all of the cards he had available.
>the way he went about it was just plain scummy
What, so he should have just half-assed his plans so he wouldn't seem so mean? He saw a chance to save his race and took it. He did what he had to do to secure victory. He plainly says the sacrifices would have been worth it had they won. Humans did the same shit sacrificing themselves and their even kids to survive. LITERALLY did nothing wrong. He might have even succeeded if he had managed to kill Kiroumaru.
Squealer was a true hero and freedom fighter. If you doubt me, just re-watch the final episode again.
>What I don't get it is the constant spouting of "Squealer did nothing wrong" that goes on here.
>He certainly takes the first prize in my book for conniving little cunt, that's for sure.
"X did nothing wrong" is secret code for "X is a conniving little cunt who deserved to lose and did."
So yeah, you're basically right about everything.
What gave you that impression? Can you elaborate a little more than "he was doing shitty things the whole time."
A big fault of the story is not giving a detailed exposition behind his planning. He merely states that he wants to liberate the Queerats this could have meant all of them or just his race or tribe w/e. His primary objective was annihilation of the Human race that was subjecting them to the rules of nature, enslaving, and killing them without a second thought. He was the most intelligent leader of his tribe and as such took a leadership position but to say that his only motivation was to be in charge is a watery argument at best.
I just wish we heard more of the history of this world as it was way more interesting than the story of some kids coming of age where they all have super powers. It really was an interesting world but the main story was just sort of filler until the Queerat squealer narrative at the end.
>He saw a chance to save his race and took it.
If you have to kill 3/4's of your race to do so in the process, are you really saving them? You're no worse than the people ruling over. You'd just be a ruler of a mountain of corpses.
>Humans did the same shit sacrificing themselves and their even kids to survive.
They killed their kids because they were deathly afraid of possible outbreaks.
Not to mention, he could have been way, waaay smarter about the way he went about doing everything like what >>132648143 said.
>He didn't give a fuck about them. He just wanted to be in charge
If I'm not mistaken, it's mentioned that the Queerats had formed a democratic society.
If so then that would mean Squeeler was an elected official.
"Humans" destroyed ancient civilization with their mutant powers, throwing the world into a dark age of violence and genocide. The only thing that stops them from killing each other again is ruthless eugenics and brainwashing under an Orwellian state. Not to mention that a powerful enough karma demon even has the potential to destroy life on Earth.
Queerats on the other hand devote themselves to their colonies and constantly improve their societies while living under the tyrannical rule of the mutants.
Mutants are a danger to themselves and the world, as long as a Cantus user is still alive there won't be peace. Therefore, there is only one solution: a final solution, and Squealer truly did nothing wrong.
running joke aside squealer did bad things but with a good reason to do so he was a machiavellian villain what he did was designed to make you think him deplorable but in the end he was making all the right choices and decisions. Morality changes just as fast as crossing a crack on the sidewalk its easier to say x is right or y is wrong but it's harder to look at both subjects objectively and determine who or what is empirically right.
In the purest sense Squealer did nothing wrong. It was the actions of the main protagonists who stopped him. Had he completed his task without their opposition he would have lived forever as the savior of the planets dominant race indefinitely.
Did you guys even watch the show?
Squealer is basically Lelouch, but everyone loves Lelouch because he's charismatic where Squealer is not.
Both of them are rebelling against an extreme super powered state oppressing the world through violence. They both respond in kind with violence of their own. They both know many innocent people will suffer and die at their hands, but they sacrifice them and themselves for the sake of what is right.
It's crazy how many people support Lelouch but hate Squealer.
I stopped reading at the metal gear comparison. Please expand your repertoire.
Lelouch was a cunt but willing to sacrifice himself for his beliefs.
Squealer was always just a cowardly bitch-baby that talked big but was ultimately full of shit to try to justify himself and manipulate people.
Well the thing is SSY is told from the oppressor's PoW who don't even realize it until the very end which is one of the most unique things SSY has. There is almost nothing to sympathize with Squealer until the final episode.
Code Geass is told mostly from Lelouch's side so we see his motives from the start and so it's much easier to take his side.
Based on what you said, it's in that same context that because he lost, he was wrong. In the world they lived in, it was a complete "kill or be killed, Survival of the fittest" kind of world. Whereas in the past, humans were at the top of the food chain because of our capacity to think, these guys were at the top because of literally having Tele/Psycho/Pyrokinesis.
Squealer and gang have the huge handicap of not having this, so it's like an ant trying to take on a human. Granted, they came close, if only because of outside, but they still ending up losing.
A: forgot your argument
B: basically provided a proof for his
Squealer had to turn his mother into a person production factory to move forward with his society how is that not a sacrifice? Are you implying since he didn't personally go out and perform the terrible actions he had a part in he didn't have to sacrifice anything personally?
What indicates he was lying about his motives? The rats had established a democratic society with equal rights for all. That lines up with what he claims to be fighting for. Where's your evidence he was lying and was actually a power hungry dictator?
>Code Geass is told mostly from Lelouch's side so we see his motives from the start and so it's much easier to take his side.
I agree, I think this is why. I imagine if we started from Squealer's point of view things would be different. It would show him groveling and begging when in the presence of humans. It would show the humans wiping out rats for trivial offenses, which ultimately set Squealer on his path. I imagine it would be something like that.
Both sides did terrible things to both themselves and the enemy side and all that yadda yadda, Squealer's biggest crime was not allowing adult Maria.
Is there something wrong with that comparison? Armstrong and Squealer both wanted to change everything in their own way. Armstrong wanted America to truly be a land of the free, free of corruption, where the strong can fight for what they want, while Squealer wanted to change the world in it's entirety to free his fellow queerat brothers from the oppressive boot of the Cantus users.
I'm sorry I upset you because I don't have Shakespearean comparisons for Squealer, as I don't remember a lot of Shakespeare stories at the top of my head.
Ah but that's very much the way history works the winners determine after looking back at their terrible misdeeds what was right and wrong. Being outside observers we can view the events objectively rather than subjectively. I can only assume this is what others meant when people say Squealer did nothing wrong.
Otherwise as the loser yeah he fucked up and got what he deserved.
Because he lied about literally everything else the entire time, and only gave this "who are the real monsters" bullshit at the end.
Why would anyone believe him after everything? It's a last ditch effort to avoid punishment
Squealer the name is a blatant Animal Farm reference, which makes it pretty obvious Squealer's rebellion is suppose to have parallels with the Marxist rebellion. If he had succeeded he probably would've ruled as a singular dictator and the living conditions fot the rat people probably wouldn't change.
Squealer even says it was with great reluctance that they had to lobotomize their own mother. That's the mother of every single one of the people in their tribe. What does it say about you anon that you decided he didn't give a fuck about reducing his own mother to live in a vegitative state to continue the progeny of his race.
He didn't just do it on a whim it was justified by the queen oppressing her children with undeniable ownership. She then became violent and began killing her own offspring and subsequently her own livelihood.
Again you lack any real argument and show evidence for the argument in the other post.
It's my hopes that both posts are by the same person for the sake of playing devils advocate in order to continue discussion.
Of course he lied to the super powered God-like beings that had enslaved his entire race and could kill him at any moment.
Even suggesting the idea of equal rights for monster rats is punishable by death (pic related). He had to lie or else he would be killed immediately.
What made Squealer any better for his people than the humans, exactly? He did everything to beings less smart than him that he accused the humans of, except he was incompetent enough to lead them to ruin.
The other anon >>132651080 is right. He's Animal Farm as fuck.
If not for the terror animation, poor pacing in the middle, and one particular scene, would have been a lot more popular here.
That said, despite its flaws, it deserves an objective, solid 8.5/10+. All the flaws in the show can be overlooked, but Squealer is just a solid villain. How the show encompasses the MC's entire life is a plus and so is the good world building.
Let's say he actually won. Humans are gone, he's democratically in charge of the survivors of his race.
Then what? He graciously steps down when some upcomer gets more support? He gives in to the retard rat-people's self-ruining ideas when they demand something dumb?
He'd go full South American dictatorship on every level of dissent. The thing with "ends justify the means" characters is that there's never and end to their ends.
The parallels are undeniable, however without any evidence to back that its just conjecture. Nice catch though :^)
While I can't speak for others it often appears people who did not sympathize with squealer were challenged or offended by his methods when he really had no other choice. The analogy between Lelouch and Squealer made earlier is pretty spot on. People only saw Squealer after he had committed to or performed something atrocious while Lelouch did the same he also had enough screen time and dialougue to sway the viewer into siding with him along the tremendous acts of violence. In the end they both had a similar obstacle and the only difference was the execution of overcoming it and the final results. Squealer lost and as a loser was fated with being hated. Lelouch successfully freed the world of britannias rule whereas Squealer nearly did with the Cantus users. They both met grim fates however Lelouch is loved outside of his universe while Squealer is hated.
Look, the issue is that you're taking the "didn't do nothing wrong" as a serious statement.
Only the 14-24 year old crowd of 4chan takes that seriously. Adults understand that every action has some wrong associated with it-- this is an existential question for the queerats.
1) They are currently suppressed by a fascist regime.
2) Their own queen will eat or destroy them.
3) The humans routinely execute and purge their own ranks, killing children by indirect means.
4) The humans butcher queerats at will and do not regard them as intelligent life or accord them any rights.
5) The humans deliberately censor or otherwise redact the actual truths of their own existence.
What kind of mercy should you show an enemy that will show none to you? What ethical duties do you have towards beings that seek to enslave and oppress you? What obligations do you have towards hypocrites who murder their own young anyways?
The answer is none.
For the queerats, there is no moral treatment owed and no "atrocity" they commit against humans could even be considered such.
Not according to what was said in the show. Under the democratic Queerat community intellectual pursuits were handed to those with the greatest aptitude. Just like any Democracy there would be good leaders and bad leaders but to claim he would become a dictator is a bit too fan canon given the material provided.
Until the writer of the original lite novel comes out with an alternate ending where Squealer wins and does all that it's a pretty baseless accusation. That is outside of the mentality of "Squealer is the bad guy so he will always do evil" mindset.
I like your answer. But considering Squealer declared himself as a human, he could have shown it morally. Even if you are facing absolute monsters, these are monsters that think themselves cultured and above everyone else. He didn't have to stoop to their level to try and meet his endgoals. By being the bigger person and showing that they were more human to begin with, they could have made the actual humans question their archaic as fuck way of thinking.
Because honestly, if the mutant mole people end up being more human than the actual humans, it goes to show you how wrong the actual humans are to begin with. Just my two cents on the matter.
Squealer was at a gigantic disadvantage and if he even questioned the humans he would get vaporized immediately.
He had no room to be moral. Queerats would never stop being slaves through diplomatic means. We are alking about a society that has their children devoured by mutant cats for the slightest thing, do you think they give a shit about queerats?.
I don't think the humans even regarded the queerrats as sentient beings, or at least equal to humans. Those appeals for morality wouldn't work. They would just disregard Squealer's attempts at morality and simply crush him like a bug, like they have done to the previous colonies. I think Squealer felt his only choice was to exterminate the humans in order to survive.
Even at the end Satoru when figured out that queerrats were descended from humans, he couldn't feel the same sympathy towards them as he does to humans. Those beliefs that queerrats were pests were probably ingrained in him at that point, much like the other humans.
Are you a shounen manga protagonist? I didn't realize that real people could be so naive. If the molerats made a more "moral" uprising or attempted to gain their freedom in some other diplomatic way they would just be annihilated. The psychics were fully aware of the molerats' circumstances and were perfectly content to keep the molerats as slaves. The psychics had no reason to make concessions when they had total dominance over the molerat species. The molerats only hope was to seize power through force, and it was perfectly logical for them to "stoop to any level" to do so.
That said, the "did nothing wrong" meme is dumb and needs to die.
Saki wanted to change things before the timeskip even happened. She did absolutely jack shit. Squealer did everything right by the sole fact alone that he sparked change, unlike that useless dyke.
If there was someone who did nothing wrong it was Kiromaru.
He exacted revenge upon Squealer for massacring his soldiers with the illegal help of a cantus user and managed to get the Giant Hornets be one of the few colonies to get spared.
He wanted to free his people from their opressors and used whatever means necessary to achieve his goal
Using cruel and underhanded methods is only way the queerats have to ever hope achieving victory when the balance of power is shifted so heavily on the human side
Squealer was right in the both senses of the word
he played his card right, he isn't like other faggots that lost because stupidity
then he is right on his actions, imagine a bunch of superpowered evil aliens come and enslave al humanity, the hero will:
>kill aliens to get alien tech to work for him
>masacre aliens with said tech
>hero's side will do an heroic sacrifice
>find and destroy the only ting aliens can use to retaliate
and everyting he does will be aceptable because hes a good looking human and aliens are ugly
That one guy killing everyone made me think of what happens to every society that "successfully" bans "all" weapons: the moment someone finds/makes one, everyone including the authorities are FUCKED.
This anime was great. After thinking about the events that happened in this show the conclusion I came up with is that Squealer had the right approach but poor execution. Knowing the mistakes he made I would be even more ruthless and violent. There is no other solution to this problem I can realistically come up with.
You need to be as evil as possible to save your people as there is no room for righteousness in that world. Righteousness and morality is a luxury for those who live in safety.
>mfw this thread
Did I end up on the wrong website somehow?
>If you have to kill 3/4's of your race to do so in the process, are you really saving them?
Not the anon you replied to but the answer is yes as long as you get every cantus user.
Cantus users already killed billions, destroyed society as we know it and basically most of human civilization.
>Even after getting his trump card, he had, at most, a 50/50 chance of winning
>But the way he went about it was, to quote Raiden here, "bat-shit insane".
What's your point exactly? If he didn't do those things he would never of had a chance. This is like saying the outcome of WW2 was great for us but why didn't the allies use non-lethal weapons.
>If you have to kill 3/4's of your race to do so in the process, are you really saving them?
Yes. Surviving is not living, there are vastly different.
>You're no worse than the people ruling over. You'd just be a ruler of a mountain of corpses.
And? His goal wasn't to prove he had higher morals. Even if that was his goal he had already proven that simply by existing, the cantus users had created an extremely un-moral society and using their absolute power to their full benefit (They fucking mutated intelligent human lifeforms for slaves for fucks sake).
Cantus users could of had the tools and knowledge to remove their powers or restore the regular human race, but they didn't because "muh evolution".
Was the society that cantus users were forced to live in worth the absolute power? Reminds me of Gargantia, sacrificing your humanity usually isn't worth it.
>train the weapon to act like a normal human, then have it attack out of nowhere in a crowded place
You're an idiot. The whole motive that the Messiah could do what he could was because he didn't think of himself as a human, training him act like a normal human in the dumbest thing squealer could have done.
Pretty much this, that aside, I won't be surprised if they just couldn't do that even if they wanted to.
I half remember Satoro mentioning that they don't actually know what exactly is the gene that give the Cantus.
>considering Squealer declared himself as a human, he could have shown it morally
Well, he did. You keep forgetting humans are giant dicks in that show.
More generally, there's nothing the queerrats under Yakomaru have done that humans haven't done historically. And that's no wonder since Yakomaru learned much from human records.
>if the mutant mole people end up being more human than the actual humans, it goes to show you how wrong the actual humans are to begin with
Seems like your anthropocentric view is pretty deeply ingrained.
Yes, he did.
His biggest mistake was the way that dealt with Kiroumaru. I'm fairly confident that he saw him as nothing more than a obedient slave for the humans, not understand that at the end of the day they were a bit similar, they both loved their race and he only acted live a slave to avoid anything that could anger the humans - and therefore cause the destruction of his colony. They just had a difference in the way that they treated their mother, and I'm 100% that they could have been allies in the fight against the humans had Squealer come in the open with Kiroumaru and let his colony do whatever they wanted with their mother, that was the biggest motive behind his defeat.
>Well, he did. You keep forgetting humans are giant dicks in that show.
Yeah, I felt everything I said in response to the previous anon was kind of moot after I said it. You can't be diplomatic in a situation where diplomacy isn't an option. Humans were dirtbags and were content with treating queerats like garbage.
>Seems like your anthropocentric view is pretty deeply ingrained.
What do you mean by this?
if you are saying squealer is a bad person,then what would you have done if you was him?
live as a cattle for the queen to easily dispose of you?
try something new only to be disposed of by the super humans because they want to maintain their so called "balance''?
all i see is someone desperately trying to survive
if he ever hope to live humanely, he will have to get rid of the super human, there's no negotiation
>tricking the MC group into doing his dirty work
As with all pretty much all displays of cunning in fiction, this is more due to lazy writing that makes things turn out just according to keikaku when they have to, rather than the characters behaving in a thoughtful manner.
You could smell all the shit that was going to go on from miles away, including the great reveal
that molerats are the result of human experimentationat the end.
Build some ships and go to someplace without humans? Go so deep underground that humans won't even find them ever again? Develop technology in the level where he could actually win against humanity, and not struggle and eventually lose against just one of many villages?
Also, while I think that Squealer is a bad person, I would probably think of him as a hero that fought against the odds and won against a bunch of demi gods, but he lost, he just made things worse for everyone around him.
Too bad we didnt get much shisui badassery, Im wondering if he was shown to be much more powerful in the novel, maybe some story of his expedition against foreign rats or some crazy ruins.
Squealer made himself out to be a bigger victim than he actually was, took it out on all the kami-samas rather than just the ones that were being abusive, and his actions ultimately caused more harm to his people than good.
Squealer did everything wrong. He is basically a depiction of modern day SJWs. He deserved what he got.
He was nothing but a race traitor in the end and died to protect the very regime that oppressed his people from what he perceived as an even larger threat.
I think >>132657286 got it right. What both Squealer and Kiroumaru did wrong was not putting their political and ideological agendas aside for a while to work for a common, greater cause. It was their undoing and guaranteed a few more centuries of even harsher oppression for their people.
but squealer and hitler really did nothing wrong.
I think both are some of the best shows to come out in the last few years
I really like the show, but naming it "best" is kinda strange as the show has obvious flaws concerning for example unstable animation quality and some exposition gay scenes which were handled a lot better in the novel. But I think it's fair to say it's definitely one of the best, considering it has actually themes that still raise discussion and are not readily chewed, making it stand amongst anime that is generally directed towards children.
Since we're mainly talking about morality in this thread, it was not rethorical. I'm actually curious to see an argument which is not convoluted and points only to the brutality of Queerats
It has its issues, particularly with the pacing early and the somewhat stale characters, with a few notable exceptions.
However the plot, world building and themes are way above the anime average and lead to interesting discussion that goes beyond waifufagging like can be seen ITT.
Solid 8/10 for me.
From the novel there are various districts in Japan that should work like Kamisu 66. Japan's population is 30.000 and Kamisu 66 had around 3.000 I think.
The rest of the world is a mystery.
I see no one posted the site yet, so.
>there are people arguing for rats and against cantus users
>against potentially a omni-potent godlike masterrace
I'm convinced you're the same type of people who suck nigger and Syrian refugee dick simply because they're the underdogs
The cantus users had a reason and a right to do what they did, they're on top of the food chain no matter how you look at it
yeah only nigger loving Marxists would choose the queerrats
Back to >>>/pol/ with you, lost sheeple
>Fighting degenerated homosexual bonobo
Yeah, squeatler is clearly not the fascist one in SSY
I wonder how long his sacrifice will be remembered, i cant see him getting inside the curriculum for the cantus kids.
They are living good enough now, having technology and probably leak of information from it would make the commoners wanting to know more and its going to be hard to control how and which is appropriate enough to share.
I'm curious, was it the Queerrat that helped and stayed behind with Maria and the wimpy dude who betrayed them? Was he working with Squealer the whole time. That's the only part I didn't understand. When Maria and Wimp were running away did he lead them to Squealer?
Occasional reminder that:
>we will never see the early PKers fight for survival while being hunted worldwide
>we will never see the rampages of Raman and Klogius
>we will never see a massive city turned into Chernobyl by a Karma Demon
>we will never see how fucked up life under the Emperors was
>we will never see the Bandits riding PK-powered unicycles while plundering and razing towns and villages
Yes I am still salty and I will always be
Are you retarded? You sound like Akane. "Even though it's wrong we have to do the right thing even if that means everybody will get fucked!"
Squealer is the result of genetic modifications on the human race to turn them into docile creatures that can be easily slaughtered by psychics the series describes as more dangerous than nuclear weapons.
Squealer is essentially a 3 foot tall rat. He has to fight people who if he appears to look the right way, but not JUST the right way, he will be instantly killed. Nobody will bat an eye either. He is facing a society that has conditioned him and his kind as trash so worthless that the solution to anytime they do anything the people in power don't like, or even just advance their own society at all they are met with genocide. Everyday he and his people live in fear of death and annihilation. As a punishment for killing a person, this society literally sees it fit to keep him alive as a brain stimulating the the worst possible pain a being can feel for eternity.
And now you are telling me he somehow is evil because he killed two people and acted "scummy?" What exactly did you want him to do? Valiantly charge the psychics and proclaim his freedom, to have all of his people killed instantly by a single psychic user?
I swear to fucking god, pussies like you are why regimes like the Nazi's are able to take power.
Well, he didn't really know where Maria and her boyfriend went either, otherwise he would definitely have told Saki. At this point his tribe was independent from Squealer's.
It's not that much of a stretch that they would find the kids on their own, no one knows the territory as well as them, and it would have been the highest priority to track them down.
His only mistake was not nuking the retarded honorfag Fagamaru harder with his psychic. It's easy to tell who the American rat is and who the Jap rat is.
>Will do anything for the sake of freedom
>Unites the people under freedom
>Carries out plan to get rid of all tyrants
>Wants freedom only from those who are not muh queen.
>Cannot accept queen not having absolute power
>Will literally trade entire freedom, life, and the life of his people for the possibility his queen may not die when she would of not died in the first place if he had fought the psychics.
>Kamikaze's the good guy.
Squealer is a bit of a difficult topic, imo. On one hand, the motivations behind what he was doing were understandable. No one wants to be a slave, particularly if you find out that you used to just like those who enslaved you like he did.
On the other hand, a lot of what he did is very moral reprehensible. What he did to Mamoru and Maria isn't all that nice. They're members of a group of children who Squealer knew to be sympathetic towards his kind, but still used and then murdered them anyway.
Good character, though. Even if not likeable at all - maybe he would have been more so if he didn't sound like he had severe throat cancer.
10/10 anime, my all time favourite.
>If you have to kill 3/4's of your race to do so in the process, are you really saving them.
Yes you blithering retard. In the show it explicitly states their races are CONSTANTLY GENOCIDED, as in not a single one left alive.
If tomorrow the leader of your country announced every single person would have to fight in an oncoming war with the BETA or you will all die, are you going to tell him he's a shitty leader because "making us fight against the BETA means we'll all die you ruler of corpses!"
Squealer had obvious motivations that were not seeded in only power gain. He truly wanted freedom for him and his people. They were willing to die for it. The only other alternative anyway was waiting for death. In the show the rats are all killed whenever they get too smart, big, or anything the psychics do not like.
>these are monsters that think themselves cultured and above everyone else
Yes, so much so that they commonly genocide intelligent rats AND MURDER THEIR OWN CHILDREN, which the rats know because they are the ones who have to do it. I'm sure if he asked nicely they would of stopped though.
You are siding with the "humans" who are not human, but insane psychic monsters that force a totalitarian society on themselves in order to prevent everybody from killing everybody instead of the rats who are canonically humans like me and you, don't murder their young, don't genocide, care for intelligent beings and make institutions like democracy just because rats look ugly. Amazing how a huge theme of the show can fly right over your head just because a rat looks ugly.
I dont have it before but now I have.Here.
>Develop technology that could eventually win against humanity?
He literally did. He developed a psychic that could kill psychics and also could not kill him or be controlled. If you watch the show, you will know this is the only weapon that works against psychics because everywhere else is in ruins and was nuked to try to stop psychics who eventually became so powerful a single person could kill billions based off whims.
>Took it out on all of the Kami-samas
Their entire society promoted the genocide of his people because they viewed him as less than trash. Your delusions are hilarious. If Squealer looked like a human and the psychics were tentacle monsters, suddenly you would be praising Squealer for his actions.
All it took for Squealer's entire race to die (which is the human race, by the way, the same one as you and me) was a single individual to not like them. Squealer took initiative and tried to prevent the genocide of his people, and even other tribes.
They purposely limit it. If you'll notice, they have rules on when they can use lights and everything and the leader explains at one point they do that because a bunch of technology can lead to indulgence and decadence which can lead to ogre's.
The ending was pretty awesome but then this appears.Got a last laugh from me.
>Teenage angst because I am mad somebody said to try to reason with a bunch of genocidal child murderers who will kill you if you disagree with them than to take any action you can to try to stop them.
Good argument you got there. You are very mature supporting fascist regimes. I forgot to be an adult like you I have to declare my love for Hitler and Pol Pot.
Threadly reminder that he and his bros have died for nothing.
noun: fascism; noun: Fascism; plural noun: Fascisms
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal) is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money, and the state.
Retard. Next you are going to tell me China is a republic because it's in the name or that North Korea is democratic.
China is indeed a republic. Albeit not a fully democratic one. But they are ruled by a small senate-like entity called Politburo standing committee consisting of seven to nine members.
Best emperors. The american Emperor was pretty dumb compared to them.
>Empress of Holy Beneficence: The sixty-fourth emperor, who was nicknamed Owl Queen even before she came to power. She believed in all sorts of strange cults, and her PK manifestation was a monstrous owl that came out during the full moon and abducted pregnant girls, cut out their fetuses, skewered them, and offered them up on an altar to the deviant gods of these cults.
>Emperor of Merciful Light: The seventy-ninth emperor, who realized that he could use his PK the night he turned nine years old. At daybreak, he snuck toward the palace and hid himself in the niche behind one of the big vases that lined the hall, where he had a perfect view of the throne. The moment his father, the Emperor of Sincerity, sat down on the throne, he stopped his heart. Then, using his PK to make it appear as though his father were still alive, he snapped the necks of all the emperor's advisers and aides and hid their bodies in vases along the hall. Over twenty people were killed, but to the Emperor of Merciful Light, known as the most heinous murderer in the history of the Holy Cherry Blossom Empire, this was just a warmup exercise. To him, killing was as natural as breathing. Some even suspected that half the time he was not even aware that he was using his PK when he slaughtered his retainers and citizens. During his reign, the population dropped by half, corpses piled up in the fields, drawing clouds of flies that blocked out the sky, and the smell of decay could be detected from kilometers away. Nowadays, the name Emperor of Merciful Light has been forgotten, and only the King of Carnage (King of mountain of corpses and rivers of blood) remains.
Communism is left wing. Pol Pot was left wing. Fascism is right wing.
>Implying the pacing did not pay off in the end
>implying the presentation was awkward
But yeah, I think it is.
>but he had a fucked up way of doing it.
It's not like there was a less fucked up way of doing it.
>Sending most of his troops to their death and not even caring about them.
Well, that's the kind of shit that happens when you're fighting demi-gods. There was either this way or being forced to kill your own kind in pointless wars to keep your species' number constant, anyway.
Welp, just like everyone in History that has ever done something worthwhile from a military perspective. Of course: he does some shit you can hardly consider moral, but that's how shit works, you don't really get to win wars by being a moral person.
I don't even think he was much developed: he was exactly the same from the start. You only get to know the full extent of his plans afterwards, but he looks fucking suspicious from the very beginning. The only "human" character that actually develops is the MC, and I don't say this as a bad thing, since the whole point of the series is her being the only one (from the main characters, at least) with a degree of psychological freedom enough to do so. The two major queerats don't really develop since they're fully determined to do what they believe they must from the start (which is a nice thing that adds to their character, taking into account their conditions).
I consider it a 9/10. I wasn't expecting anything even half as good until like 15 episodes in. There are flaws, and the story gets convoluted at the end, but it's an enjoyable anime with a well thought story and a lot of intense scenes that also manages makes you think.
>Communism is left wing. Pol Pot was left wing. Fascism is right wing.
I think he was more going for the observation that, ideologies aside, there's a common thread of authoritarianism in both far-left and far-right regimes.
The others are also pretty fucked up. Sadly, there's nothing said about how the rest of the world fared when PK people took over and errected slave empires. I guess even Murricans didnt fare much better in that regard, since PK >>> guns.
>Emperor of Delight: Records state that during the coronation of the fifth emperor, the Emperor of Delight, the public's cheers and applause went on for three days and three nights. The first hundred people to stop clapping were turned into sacrifices. They were set on fire, and their blackened bodies turned into statues to decorate the palace. From then on, the Emperor of Delight was called the Emperor of Eternal Screams.
>Queen of Sorrow: The thirteenth emperor, Empress Airin. Every morning, she took joy in watching public executions of people who had displeased her in some slight way. It became customary for palace workers to fast so as not to throw up in horror during the executions.
>Emperor of Magnanimity: The thirty-third emperor, who was nicknamed Wolf King his entire life, though it gradually took on a negative connotation. This was because he would often go out for a walk in the city on a whim, and leave a mountain of corpses in his wake, like the aftermath of a rampaging beast. The Emperor of Magnanimity's PK image was of the maw of a giant beast dismembering the limbs of people, though parts of the corpses were said to bear the teeth marks of the emperor himself.
Well, what do you really need technology for that you can't do with cantus? Aside from transportation I can only think of information storage and processing. The scientists that made the queerats must have either used cantus or had access to technology more advanced than when the world fell into chaos. The false Minoshiros definitely aren't something that we can make today, so maybe they still have access to it, but only use it when they really need to.
>Emperor of Pure Virtue: Magnanimity’s son, the thirty-fourth emperor, who was called the Heretic King after his death. When he was twelve, he strangled his sleeping father and fed him to the dogs. He was praised by the public, but he soon became paranoid of being assassinated himself, so one by one, he killed his younger brothers and male cousins and let roaches devour their bodies. But even though there were no longer many PK users who could usurp him, his rule was exposed to other threats. Assassination attempts by normal citizens began. In the end, the Emperor of Pure Virtue developed an abnormal obsession with feeding live humans to wild animals.
This reminds me why I hate psi powers in fiction. Every battle is pretty much only people staring with each other. You don't even get pretty effects you have with actual magic, just staring and stuff blowing up. It's just cheap².
>hurr muh communism muh fascism
Just fuck off already you /pol/ retards
The Cantus society was based entirely on preventing the annihilation of the remainders of mankind. It has nothing to do with any kind of ideology, neither has enslavement of a race that is only partially human. They're a whole lot closer to cattle than anything else.
>Unites the people under freedom
>Carries out plan to get rid of all tyrants
Do they teach you this bullshit at school?
Personally I found the Karma Demons one of the most interesting concepts in SSY and much more dangerous than the Fiends.
Psychics who have their powers manifest their subconscious and lose complete control. They have more power than regular cantus users since they are not bound by any rules and actually have the potential to be a threat to the entire world since they could create some abomination that swallows everything or breaks the rules of physics.
If there's someone who did nothing wrong was the Education Board. Even though their means are terrible, they must avoid that from happening no matter what.
The whole point is that the Queerats were no longer human. They're dumb as fuck, have less in common with people than dogs, and will never get beyond where Squealer took them because he was a one-off.
>have less in common with people than dogs
but wasn't the final scene about just the opposite of that? they analysed their DNA, and showed they were just deformed humans
The general shape of your body is codifyed by few genes, thus dwarfs and hairy-faced people
>All these people shitting on Squeeler's strategies
How many times have you nailed a brutal revolution on your first attempt?
It's a show, analyze the moral if you want, but know that it's tied by plot. Humans would have never lost. It also served to make the point that even when the truth gets out, things tend to stay the same, and it's difficult to get rid of an oppresing power
when everybody went gay it lost me
for nice moments now and then but the absolute lack of consistency in them and an barly coherent plot drops it from anything i would recommend anybody
Alright I think I kind of get people's complaints about the pacing in the middle, but I don't think "poor pacing," is a good description. I think the middle is definitely the most boring part of the show, it lacked the impressive world-building and atmosphere of the beginning and the dramatic tension of the end. It was kind of this awkward middle ground in the show that was necessary, but just not as brilliantly executed.
Is that what people are talking about when they complain about the pacing in the middle? Because if it is, then I agree. It's not bad, just wasn't as great as the rest.
no, this is a guy that thinks throwing in random homo motives as some cheap attempt at dragging out the plot is a sign of bad and lazy writing you often see from low effort Japanese animation
problem it goes nowhere and the pacing of the story so far hits a brick wall with enough force for at lest 30% of its viewers to drop it right there and then
this plot thread dosnt play any part in the overarching narrative until later parts of the story when social and genetic engineering motives get stronger, but by that point you will be hard pressed to find people still playing any interest, and is still dosnt pay off
that and fuck faggots
>Should not all intelligent individuals be given equal rights?
I never realized how right the phrase "Might makes right" was until I saw this show. Squealer could never reason with the humans, he did the only thing he could to survive as sovereign race and that was human genocide.
10/10 villain, Squealer did nothing wrong.
I have to disagree here. Kiyomaru and Squealer are the most "human" characters in the show, even more so than somewhat 1984 style sanitized MC and her friends. Even the lower queerats have their moment, the near dead one who said he is okay dieing for sqealer because he gonna liberate them from cantus-human, or the one who go extra miles to return Saki's kindness for example.
I wish Japan would animate more novels. They're clearly leaps and bounds above most manga adaptations and galaxies ahead of anything Light Novels have produced.
Uchouten Kazoku, Tatami Galaxy, SSY, and a new LOGH adaptation. The 2010's have been pretty good for novel adaptations so far, I think.
It was part of the setting and an important factor in drama and world-building. Granted, it's handled poorly in the anime with sudden exposition so I cannot exactly blame you for disliking it. In the novels it was clear from the beginning the society was bisexual, but in the anime it is brought up suddenly. I however believe you cannot judge entire series because of half an episode of homolust.
Yep, it's just stuff written for high schoolers. High Art? Nah but I still tend to enjoy watching adaptations from time to time.
I wish Japan just did more good adaptations in general. One of the things I loved about the Ping Pong anime was that it added some stuff here and there but only to give characters more depth and they didn't verge off into shitty fanfic territory like so many adaptations of my favorite manga.
I never thought they looked ugly. Looks were never a key issue here. I just thought that if Squealer was a human, like he said he was, they would have gotten more results, y'know, like the saying "catch more flies with honey than vinegar." But after reading a lot of these posts and remembering a lot of crucial events in the show, I realize that is impossible since the humans were basically Nazi's who purposely subjugated humans who didn't have superpowers into beings that they could kill without any consequences. And despite numerous time passing from when they did it, they made absolutely no effort to change themselves for the better, think "oh, maybe what we did to these guys is wrong", or do anything worthwhile. They were just content with being glorified slave owners. My way of thinking just came from humans have the capacity to be greater than they could be, but that way of thinking doesn't fly here since the "humans" might as well be oppressive aliens wearing human skin.
>Humans sinned and destroyed the world
>better replace them with some fuck-ugly retarded barely-capable-of-speech rats that had a single genius among them
as I see it, the fags propagating this would gladly spread their sisters, wives and daughters wide open for the syrian refugees
I remember accidentally dropping this show on episode 12, I just sort of forgot about it. I vaguely remember some things and following threads with /a/ way back but now I'm wondering if I should go back and finish the anime or do the manga from the beginning and refresh my memory.
What do you guys think?
Majority of the world-building and details are established in the first half. If you cannot remember much I'd advice to rewatch. Manga is terrible adaption and outside fanservice and occasional neat art, and has much less to offer than anime or original novel. Stick with anime or read the book if you are interested enough.
If anything, you can skim the first 12 episodes to catch up on it. That's what I did, since I watched up to 14? or 16 and I lost touch with a lot that happened. Was good enough for me, since I remembered a lot.
You would be partially human in this show too because assuming you didn't die they would take you and forcibly genetically modify you into a rat also.
It's fine, because I guess you are like cattle more than anything else.
The rats society was completely stable and fine without the Cantus and they only existed and oppressed for their own satisfaction. The show clearly demonstrates their society doesn't work and is destroying itself with lowering population numbers and that if they ever grow their population the world will go into chaos again.
Meanwhile the rats live fine advancing, exploiting technology and establishing democracies. The espers are the scourge on the planet and less human than the rats.
Rat's pretty much faced same problems. They killed eachother and enslaved their own. Overall maybe they were "healthier" than human populace looking from example birth-rates, but I realistically cannot judge which society was more "fine".
>Rat's pretty much faced the same problems.
It's not about what problems people faced, it's about how these issues were faced.
Rats faced very human problems and reacted like humans. Squealer gave all the rats a chance to join his alliance, and he also promised them proper democratic representation in said alliance. The rats extreme actions were also all reactionary. Squealer, the entire time, acted as a reaction to the inevitable death of his people and all rats like him, and offered them a clear path to freedom.
Squealers approach is better than human beings governing and living today than a lot of places in the current day middle east.
Humans on the other hand systematically murdered their own children out of abject fear of them becoming monsters and genetically modified all non psychics in the human race for being lesser beings and so they could have slaves at which they could kill at any time without batting an eye. Their society clearly did not work. Squealers society only didn't work insofar that our current society doesn't. Their society fundamentally did not work because it killed all of it's own citizens, including shit where if a kid cheats in a playground game he is then murdered. As to how you can see those two comparable is beyond me.
The end result of Squealers actions was freedom, the end result of the Espers actions was oppression and death for all.
You give rats too much credit. Considering the fact they imprisoned their own and every colony outside squeler had inner and external conflicts leading to racial selection, Kiromaru being strongest example. Squeler and his views on "democracy" are worthless as long as he was the one pulling strings, treating his own as expendable. Realistically speaking only a handful of rats were shown to be able to come up with any sort of plans and tactics, leading to an outcome where even a "democratic" society was essentially a dictatorship. Both humans and rats had exactly same problems: both believed they do what they had to do. Only difference was if rats would have disappeared without rebellion, and even if the position as dominated would have remained, most likely had they not perished. Same cannot be said about humans, who had surely been destroyed unless the society was shaped the way it was.
Why can't mediums ever just make monsters AND humans bad?
And I don't mean like that one faggot human or monster that just makes the other ones look bad. I mean just plain bad. Like Palatines and Israel they're both bad news and there is nothing "holy" or honorable about either of them.
This is true the series handled the main story of the novel but didn't have the time or budget to keep all of what made the story so great. The world building and environment of SSY are what make it good not so much the group of young adults the story focuses on.
Squealers uprising is the primary means of locomotion in the story but unfortunately it falls to the sidelines for the children group to show you this world that made he and the queerats. When people talk about pacing issues they mean to say that the slice of life necessary to show Squealer and his plan can feel like a slog. I have to agree in most cases. Again its a necessity to let you the viewer fully understand this world where you are meant to identify with the cantus users. You should identify with the queerats unless you are the offspring of a giant hotel chain or diplomats son. The people who were changed into queerats were the ones who did not have Cantus or latent PSI abilities.
Killing is wrong.
Even if you have ends to meet committing a murder cannot be called just.
And if you start arguing "but that's just a norm constructed by humans" you are shooting your own leg as every action taken by human/rat and they value as "just" or "wrong" is just construction. This would mean only truth is a construct, which in turn would mean winner creates truth.
Not this shit again. The clear intention is that neither of the sides are "good" and "bad" as they are portrayed in grey morality. Squeler did nothing wrong is just a dank /a/ meme, of course stealing babies and committing mass murder cannot be viewed as okay thing to do, even if you are a hardcore edgemaster. This is like those goddamn Shiki-threads all over again.
not even japan but the whole world. What's his face from the main group had PSI powers so strong that he began manifesting a reality marble that could have grown to destroy everything in existence. Such is the power of PSI physics be damned the power is so meta it can destroy matter and create energy from nothing. Maybe it just amplifies energy since the person needs to have a thought for PSI to act on, a dead Cantus user kills no one.
Except that's wrong.
They imprisoned and fought the rats that would not go along with their plan, because if anybody told on them they would all be killed.
That was the major source of their conflicts in the show. What was Squealer supposed to have the rats do? He knew all of them were all going to die and acted based on this premise.
Also, It's really annoying to hear people say over and over again Squealer thought his people were expendable so he was terrible. You are acting like Squealer did what he did just because he casually felt like it. You are literally ignoring he did what he did to try to fight super humans that are so insanely powerful, that a single Japanese man was able to bring the worlds population to 10% of what it was before he began his rule.
Now, going against what which when compared to him are literal gods, you complain about the ethics of doing shit like suicide bombing? Can you not view the world outside of your modern day context? If aliens come to earth tomorrow and enslave all of us and are going to kill us when they think we are being a little too finicky, us meaning all of us. Every single human, including all the ways we can reproduce are you going to complain if a military orders a suicide bomber run to try to defend the integrity of the entirety of our race? Because that is exactly the situation Squealer was in.
Also historically the rats entire civilization was destroyed over a period of time to avoid them getting to big for themselves, so this nonsense about them not being in any danger if they didn't do anything is bullshit. I'm entirely convinced that this show would have had no problems if the espers were aliens and the rats were people, because then everybody would just see Squealer as Lelouch.
>What is context
So you wouldn't steal a baby if the alternative was to let every single person in your country die? Holy shit, what is with people and moral absolutism.
>Even if you have ends to meet a killing cannot be called just.
Yes it fucking can you dumbass. If a person is going to rape you and murder you and you kill them you are just. Read anything about what justice actually means. It does not mean "bad things are bad always and you can never do them in the right."
What you are implying right now that if a mans son is going to die tomorrow to a band of Angry Russians, and the only solution he needs to employ to save his son is to steal one of the Russians watch, he is wrong because "stealing is wrong. Even if you have ends to meet the act of stealing cannot be called just."
Of course his actions are just. Of course his actions are justifiable. Get off your high horse that you formed by living in a world full of safety and devoid of conflict.
>They imprisoned and fought the rats that would not go along with their plan, because if anybody told on them they would all be killed.
So they killed rats who they considered a threat? Funnily enough this reminds me of certain other side. Both certainly did decisions in order to stop a collapse.
>You are acting like Squealer did what he did just because he casually felt like it
It's a fact leader needs to treat his underlings as tools in a war. To achieve something you might have to give sacrifices. A bit like, I don't know, the humans again? No one did anything because they casually felt like it.
I'm just going to assume you're this guy too >>132695435
>What you are implying right now that if a mans son is going to die tomorrow to a band of Angry Russians, and the only solution he needs to employ to save his son is to steal one of the Russians watch, he is wrong because "stealing is wrong. Even if you have ends to meet the act of stealing cannot be called just.
I never implied I wouldn't for example "steal a baby", just that stealing a baby couldn't be considered just. If you commit a mass murder to prevent another of course you cannot be considered "just", only a winner can be.
>I'm entirely convinced that this show would have had no problems if the espers were aliens and the rats were people, because then everybody would just see Squealer as Lelouch.
You just have to imagine espers being mutated monsters they are, and rats being humans they are.
You don't have to agree with me, but the fact remains you answered to my clear arguments by calling me a "libershit" and the a "jew". I'm going to assume you are baiting but you did literally zero effort to argue back outside petty insults.
Except, and this is very important, the rats gave all the other rats the option of being their equal. They went to the rats and said "you can all have equal representation and we will all work together." After the espers were dead, they would have had no further reason to fight for this shit.
>It's a fact leader needs to treat his underlings as tools in a war. To achieve something you might have to give sacrifices. A bit like, I don't know, the humans again? No one did anything because they casually felt like it.
What exactly does this comment prove? The rats ARE human. They are humans that wanted equality. His underlings were ready to die for it, which everybody ignores. They were all willing to fight for it. Even retard honor rat wanted to kill all the shitty Espers to get his freedom and be free from their whim. I don't see how this goes against anything I said.
And yes I am that guy.
>Stealing the baby wouldn't be just
Yes it would. The entire point here is you do not judge the morality of an action in vacuum. Why did you do what you did? In court, we do not solely look at the fact that a person has killed a person.
Let's examine the definition of murder. Murder is NOT homicide. Homicide means you killed somebody, murder has more of a nuance. Murder is, as defined by the dictionary "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."
So what are we arguing here? Were Squealers actions lawful. Were the actions he took justifiable given the situation he was put in.
Regardless of being a winner or not, which is irrelevant to this conversation because we are objective third parties, Squealers actions were justified. He did what he did for two things, the preservation of the human race and equality.
He wanted equal representation as the gods had. They then literally laughed in his face at the notion and put his brain in a jar and made him feel all the pain imaginable for eternity. That is the society he was fighting against.
In America, or China, or Russia, or even North Korea your punishment for what he did would of been death. The Espers however did not have a reasonable society like us. They killed their own children. All of this knowledge was knowledge Squealer had. Now you tell me, what would you of personally done if confronted with this super society that can kill you, everyone you know and everyone you could know at any time and will eventually inevitably do so and you have one chance to prevent this from happening?
Do you just wait for death? If not, your actions are spurred out of necessity, and actions out of necessity are always justifiable.
>Except, and this is very important, the rats gave all the other rats the option of being their equal.
Like the ones they imprisoned and killed. And I want to point out that while you are talking about "rats" you are referring clearly to Squeler-tribe, seemingly "democratic" but committing same sins regardless.
>What exactly does this comment prove? The rats ARE human.
It proves the means and goals are not so different: if you consider squeler just there is no reason why you wouldn't consider humans just.
>In court, we do not solely look at the fact that a person has killed a person.
So you are saying "because we know do this it must've always been objective standard" and ridiculously try to apply this to a fantasy setting with clearly different morals and legal institutions?
Listen, there are two ways how this conversation is going to end. Either you claim there exist "just" that is objective. This means you go full Locke and claim that for example God has defined what is "just". Another way for this to end is to say "just" is not objective and created by humans, which means entire conversation is pointless as even our current law is defined by winners.
I enjoy arguing but I'm going sleep now, I'll continue opposition if the thread is still up
But soon the pain disappeared. I felt myself growing wet. Instead of feeling like I was being forced into something unpleasant, pleasure began to take hold.
I moaned and Satoru asked, “Does it feel good?”
It was an unneeded question. Instead of answering, I raked his back hungrily.
So I was no longer a virgin. And now I was forced to think about how I would pass our next physical exam. Once again, it was the woman who had to deal with it.
Satoru’s movements grew more intense. Even as I felt my pleasure mounting, I had a moment of panic. If I got pregnant, things would get really complicated.
But before I could stop him, Satoru froze.
I thought he had finally realized the problem, but that wasn’t it.
He was looking down at me with an expression of such love and tenderness, I thought he was about to cry.
I had a sudden realization. His look wasn’t directed at me. I wasn’t sure how, but he seemed to see in me the shadow of the boy he had never stopped loving.
At the same time, I felt from the bottom of my heart a longing for the same boy.
Satoru started moving again, faster this time.
I was quickly reaching my climax. When I orgasmed, the face I saw was no longer Satoru’s, but another boy’s.
Both of us were using each other to make love to someone who was no longer in this world. It might be extremely abnormal, and you might even say we were cheating on each other, but we both knew and wanted it.
After I orgasmed, Satoru pulled out and came on the wall of the hut.
>Like the ones they imprisoned and killed. And I want to point out that while you are talking about "rats" you are referring clearly to Squeler-tribe, seemingly "democratic" but committing same sins regardless.
Democracy does not mean that you just let your entire people be wiped out because some people don't agree with you. It means in matters of governing you are represented by the will of the people. Squealers society exhibited this. They liked Squealer. I don't know why you are trying to argue against his democracy. It was in it's infant stages, but it was clearly a democracy.
>It proves the...
Because, and this is very important, Squealers actions are only a response to the humans actions. In matters of something being justifiable, it is extremely important "who shot first" so to speak. Squealer would not have done any of this if he, and all the rats, every single on of them was not going to be eventually killed at the hands of the humans.
>So you are saying...
Now you are entirely off the mark. A lot wrong with what you just said. First, the standard comes from ethics. This is an entirely pointless argument if you are just going to say "ONLY HISTORY CAN DECIDE WHAT IS RIGHT AND WRONG." That not only is wrong, but it's ignoring what ethics actually is. Something is not suddenly made right because nobody can prosecute you. Also, Shin Sekai Yori is not a fantasy setting. It's our world. Squealer learned everything he did from reading the same books on ethics me and you did.
>Either you claim there exist a just that is objective
Something can be objective from a certain viewpoint. From the viewpoint of a human being there is an objective "just" that can tell you how to treat every situation, even grey areas. If a decision made in a grey area has equally bad decisions, then any decision made is just. Luckily for the purposes of this conversation, there is no grey area. cont.
Squealer would have never had to do anythign that he did if not for the tyranny of his oppressors. He did not act out of any selfish desires, only to defend his right to life and the right of his people to life. The Espers did too, only insofar their own kind was concerned. They treated the rats like cattle to be slaughtered at their whim.
The rats never enslaved and slaughtered Espers, their only act of aggression was a war against the Espers, which then only took place to ensure the preservation of their species.
It doesn't matter that their goal was the same. If you and I both share the goal of having sex and you go out and rape somebody and I go talk to girls, it's really important that you did it the way you did.
I realize however that doesn't directly apply to this situation because Squealer in the scenario would have also raped a girl, so it's better to say if we both kill 10 people, but you do it because you view the people as trash who are becoming inconvenient and you can do so with no consequence to yourself and I do it because the 10 people killed my entire family, AND THEN we're preparing to kill everybody in my neighborhood and the only possible way to stop them is for me to kill them, you cannot argue that both actions "are not justifiable because you kill 10 people in both situations."
shitposting aside the lack of good SSY art was so shocking. for example, a sorted SSY folder to my liking from booru/pixiv/threads only amounts to less than 50 picture
>only to defend his right to life and the right of his people to life
All he and his people want to do is sit around and be lazy, eat cheetos, chimp out, and collect welfare checks.
>Squeler did nothing wrong is just a dank /a/ meme
I'm not going to let the thread go without calling you on your bullshit. He did nothing (morally) wrong, believe all you want it's just a meme opinion. grey != wrong
>Both of us were using each other to make love to someone who was no longer in this world. It might be extremely abnormal, and you might even say we were cheating on each other, but we both knew and wanted it.
Hats off to Shun! double simultaneous ghostly NTR.
He did *something* wrong. His entire plan made no sense whatsoever.
Remember when the humans examined the rat battlefield where Squealers army achieved victory without any losses? No broken weapon fragments found at the scene? They even say it looks like somebody with Cantus did it.
Clearly the implication is that the brainwashed human child defeated all the rats.
That should've never worked! I mean, they make it a huge plot point later that this child can't hurt rats because of the death feedback bullcrap.
If the writing had been better, Squealer wouldn't have gotten that far.
If I remember well, Mamoru and Maria died without any help, like how kids thrown alone in the nature without any knowledge and help would probably, even more while dealing with something so risky as giving birth.
Now maybe the book tell more about it. If someone had read it and can tell what exactly happened, that would help.
On their monotous society, the elderly Saki and Satoru knew that the control mechanisms of their predecessors were destined to fail and that one day a mayor world scale catastrophe would cause the entire species to disappear. To save humanity from this tragic fate, they called scientists from many different areas to tune ideas; they decided to go with a new genetic engineering experiment with the goal to modify embryo with the capacity to survive underwater thanks to the a new membrane which they denoted "Ena".
Knowing that the root of all evil was the power of the gods, they limited their Cantus and reduced it to a spontaneous ability when the Ena had contact with water, a full opposition to Raman-Klogius. To protect them from any kind of surface threats, they conditioned these organisms with hibernation that which could last centuries, but conserving every bodily function, an antithesis of Hashimoto-Appealbaum. Saki's partner, a brilliant Cantus genius, let go of everything he loved, his partner, his friends, and his family; he altered his own organism to survive deep below sea so that he would be the guardian of the new generation, he would be the one that would watch over the new humans so that they would never reach for the surface and others would reach the sea. He didn't even gave it a name, he was only knows as the Sea God.
With the increasing frequency of fiend sightings in villages, the destruction of everything known reduced the population of Cantus users little by little, as they went kept being brought back to smaller rudimentary societies; this threatened every single living thing on the surface. Of course, the humans with Ena escaped this era of destruction since they were hibernating in the deep sea waters. Thousands of years passed and peace returned to the surface, the remains of what used to be an ancient civilization disappeared and a new era in the history of humanity begun.
The Sea God watched and this new civilization flourished in little time, surpassing the previous civilization. With the passing centuries, the population grew and massive migrations started to happen in the sea. With this, the Sea God divided his conscience and incorporated it with the ones with great potential, those of which would take an appearance similar to him. These beings would be knows as Scales and as such they would replace the Sea God by watching these new villages. For this reason, many say that the Sea God isn’t gone, it’s more that he’s dispersed over all the oceans.
Time passed and it was inevitable that many reached the surface and slowly adapt to living on the bare ground. These groups of humans grew and the Exodus of the ocean grew more and more. Many of the firstborn adapted to the surface and the offspring of their offspring eventually didn’t have the ability to survive on the sea, they were born without Ena. Their culture, much similar to their predecessors, got reinforced, their enormous scientific advances marked a distinct course for these new conquerors of the surface and, possibly because of fate, reached the same social complexity reached by the postmodern societies of the first millennia of the planet.
Not knowing their common upbringing led to conflict between both surviving parties, but they learned to coexist. To this day, both the people of the sea and the humans from the surface don’t know the truth about their origins…
It's someones way to connect Shin Sekai Yori with Nagi no Asukara and then some spanish dude who knows a lot about SSY expanded on it. Someone then translated the original Spanish text back to english
Honestly, I don't like this show. I have to say, it had an, although cliche, audacious premises: an authoritarian dystopia; a collectivist society, and some neat sci-fi and fantasy ideas about immortality and powers. But that's what disappointed me the most, since I was expecting some moral and philosophical dilemma.
It could have been a clash of ideologies, or about how "advancement" in knowledge can actually harm us. It could have been, I'd say, an intellectual war. Instead, the show was just a long, constant tirade of how ignorant and violent humans are. The villains aren't even smart; we are just stupid like a retarded king who listen to flattery.
The show is cool for people who aren't used to edgy shit. But for me, the edge is too blunt this time. It's overused.
Still doesn't make sense that Squealer's army managed to kill them all without the slightest bit of resistance, just because they were unarmed. And I don't buy it that willingly assisting in a massacre doesn't trigger the same death feedback bullshit as perpetrating it.
Anyway, that wasn't even the greatest complaint I had about the battle. Show, don't tell. The series on the whole was guilty of not doing that. Not that I'd have expected anything there, given the animation budget of the show.
>Show, don't tell.
You can't really blame them for that. MOST anime studios don't do that. Mainly because I believe they're devoid of people who know how to write proficiently.
if they knew how to give humans the death feedback genes, why not just give it to the non-PK users as well and leave em human? Why was it necessary for them to be expendable if self-defense wasn't the main reason?
>why not just give it to the non-PK users as well and leave em human
General fuck you gesture towards non cantus humans, not too mention the non cantus humanity tried to kill them when the cantus users started to appear and tried to usurp the cantus overlords afterwards.
>People who sympathize with Squeeler when even his own race thought he was scum
Kiroumaru's sacrifice winded up saving everyone in the end. All Squealer was doing was the same shit the Cantus users did years before and had he actually came about it would have just been a reverse of their current regime, the whole point of the show is that morality is irrelevant when it comes to survival, the Cantus users did what they did to ensure survival, Squealer did what they did because he assumed it was his right as a "human" to uprise even if it meant sacrificing his own kin to make it happen. Ultimately you side with Squealer because MUH FREEDOM regardless of his actions you side with the Cantus users because of their fragile foundation and need of survival above all else with is the roots of humanity this "did nothing wrong" meme is retarded and doesn't apply here.
>Squealer is basically Lelouch, but everyone loves Lelouch because he's charismatic where Squealer is not.
Lelouch was a fucking retard and Code Geass outright failed to make a compelling argument in the end since the show spilled its own spaghetti in R2 so you never got to see a point towards who was right or wrong. There's a clear gray area in SSY and its not farfteched to side with either side but Squealer lost points when he became worse than the Cantus users by killing his own race for personal gain rather than survival.
You weren't suppose to side with Lelouch since the show states that he was wrong and the suicide pact he made was not suppose to be a good end. This is the same shit with people siding with Light Yagami with the only difference being that the mangaka had to come out and say that he was the villain and you weren't suppose to side with him.
>Squealer sacrificed his own kind based on a gamble by wiping out colonies that didn't agree with him
>Kiromaru till the very end thought nothing but his kind and the only reason he sacrificed himself was to ensure the survival of his colony
Go be stupid somewhere
Kiroumaru would have never sided with Squealer because he was a dishonorable prick that couldn't be trusted and his methods were cowardly, while he also had distaste for the humans and planned a rebellion it would have came about differently from Squealer. They were never on the same length.
>Squealer took initiative and tried to prevent the genocide of his people, and even other tribes.
HE FUCKING KILLED HIS OWN KIND.Why do people always forget this? It was the main reason why Kiromaru went against him because he was wiping out other queerat colonies that didn't side with him and caused conflicts between other colonies. If it wasn't for Kiromaru the queerats would have been completely wiped out.
Shinsekai Yori = "The New World"
The parallels between the Rats and humans with modernization/colonization really make it appealing. The intro side stories of the subjugation of mankind by those who are espers connect to the cruelty of the humans and the Rats.
Squealer is a sympathetic character because rebellions like his happened throughout human history.