>>133129933 That's because Isin is a troll and it also fits the theme of the story. Still, I can't help but to agree with you that she deserved a bad ending. The fact that she ended traveling with Shichika, even though he doesn't give a shit about her, is the only thing that I really disliked about the ending.
>>133130139 I wouldn't call her ending good though. Shichika doesn't love her, Emonzaemon is dead and her plan failed miserably. The thing is that her ending seems good because all the other characters got horrible ones.
>>133129933 Why? She didn't actually do anything other than oversee the unfolding events. She didn't even kill Togame - Emonzaemon did it of his own will because he knew Togame would eventually kill Hitei.
>>133131585 >Not a bad person She treats everyone in the series like shit. She didn't give a shit when Emozamon died(No, wearing his fucking mask isn't enough) and seem to care more about Shichika than about him. She was a shallow character with barely any development compared to the MCs. And most important, she was the one responsible for Togame's death.
Hitei literally means "to deny", what she says isn't neccesarily what she means. People still haven't learned that Nisio Isin loves characters with major character defining quirks or patterns of speech.
I would love to see /a/'s reaction if Togame would live and actually kill Shichika after the hunt was over.
>>133131796 I'll not argue about this again, but technically speaking the one responsible for her death is the guy who put a bullet in her chest. And the one responsible for ordering that is Hitei. Thus, Hitei is responsible.
>>133131872 >Togame isn't a main character Now, that's retardation. She has even more screen time than Shichika. >>133131857 Doesn't matter, we never see her other side coming into fruition. I'm honestly curious to know why you'd like Hitei when there's much better characters in the series, both in terms of complexity and morals.
>if Togame would live and actually kill Shichika That's debatable and even then, Shichika would rather be killed than see her dying. She says so himself.
>>133131881 Hitei didn't order it, it was Emozamon acting on his own in order to protect her because Togame was aiming to kill her.
Completely self-defense. The one responsible is indeed Togame who wanted to kill everyone because she couldn't get over her grudge. That includes Shinchika. Hitei's annoying but she's innocent while Togame is an ugly human being.
>>133131964 >If there's any tragedy is in his death. Shichika should have thanked him as his best bro because he dodged a bullet by killing that bitch. Shichika wouldn't mind killing himself for Togame's sake though.
>She says so himself. It's not debatable. Read the story. It's fairly clear she had unambiguous plans to off him. That's why Nisshio killed her off. She was the villain of the story, a very cleverly done but still the bad guy.
>>133132089 >It's fairly clear she had unambiguous plans to off him That may be true in the beginning of the series, but it's pretty obvious that she started to have feelings for him as their journey went on. It's obvious that she loved him and some of her actions definitely support the idea that she could give up on her revenge. Hell, she even says that she's happy that she got killed because that way the decision of killing him wouldn't torment her anymore.
Also, Togame's death was meant to cause a emotional reaction in to the readers/viewers. Isin didn't indeed for people to hate her.
>>133132227 Her feelings aren't strong enough to make her change plans. That's entirely the point of her character: she's unable to move on from her hatred and brings tragedy upon her head. It was completely deserving ending because she couldn't let go of her grudges and her hatred.
She was still going to kill him.
Hitei and Shichika survived because they could get over themselves. While Togame and Emozamon died because they couldn't. They won't forget them, that's why they carry a memento, but now are freed to live as they choose and decided to journey together.
>>133132349 >Hitei and Shichika survived because they could get over themselves How Shichika got over himself?His life and objectives were all centered around Togame. He was forced to get over himself because she died.
Also, you'll never going to convince me that Hitei had feelings for Emozamon. She didn't show any emotion when he died.
>was completely deserving ending because she couldn't let go of her grudges and her hatred. That's what she says. But I still believe that things could turn out differently.
He got over himself when he spared Hitei, he was capable to think beyond her and he's free now to be his own man. Meaning, he had the capacity to live without her. While Emozamon would have probably kill himself without Hitei and went as far as go against her to keep her "safe".
Hitei's meaning is to "deny", she had feelings, but she would deny everything. That's the point.
The only way for things to turn out differently was if Togame stops being a grudgewanker and Emozamon also changed his way. THEY brought this ending and forced Hitei and Shichika to grow up and move on.
>>133132529 Hitei's feelings are clearer in the novels I think. Anime focused too much on Togame and not enough on her. That's just my impression, it just seems more coherent in the story of why those two had to die and the ones who survived lived on together (without forgetting them).
>>133132529 >But I still believe that things could turn out differently. You need to pay attention to the Sage's episode. He pretty much outright states that Togame is doomed to fail as long as she doesn't let go of her ambitions. Even after ten months with Shichika, she was nowhere near getting over her obsession with revenge.
Considering how Nisio likes to handle characters with obsessions, it's extremely unlikely that she wouldn't have killed Shichika.
>>133132718 >He got over himself when he spared Hitei, he was capable to think beyond her and he's free now to be his own man. That's not how I interpret. For me, Shichika says that he wanted to kill himself and that he isn't bound by Togame's orders anymore, but that isn't necessarily true. If you pay attention, he was basically following all orders, promises and wishes that she gave to him before dying. He followed the order of thanking Hitei instead of killing her. He followed the order to spread the meaning of Cheerio. He followed the order to stay alive despite what he said to Emonzaemon. He followed the order to complete the Japan map. And last but not least, he obeyed her when she said that he should forget about her and that's why he was traveling with Hitei. You can say that these were ''promises'' and not orders, but my point still stands.
For me, Shichika never let go of Togame and never will, he only spared Hitei because Togame said so and because Hitei stated that deep down she liked Togame. And he only stayed alive because that was Togame's wish.
>>133133033 Togame killing Shichika despite everything that happened fits her character thematically but not logically, at least in my opinion. Yes, it's most likely that she would indeed kill him considering how Isin likes to handle these types of archetypes and also because of the the story's theme, but I can't help but think that this doesn't reflect well on how the story portrayed her.
I already said this in another thread, but for me it doesn't make any sense that she would kill someone she loves for something that he didn't even did. I understand being ambitious and wanting to take over the Shogunate but why killing Shichika?You can excuse that by saying that she can't let go of her past but even then it's still bullshit. It was Shichika's father who killed her father, not Shichika, and that's something that she even states while they were talking about their future in episode 11. It's also stated that she was changing and wasn't that ruthless girl who would do anything to get what she wants anymore. She wasn't the girl that the first maniwa knew and hated anymore. And her love story with Shichika hints to a chance of redemption at the end.
Anyway, I think that killing him would be a decision that she would regret for the rest of her life and it'll probably make her turn into a miserable and unhappy woman.
>>133134019 >but for me it doesn't make any sense that she would kill someone she loves for something that he didn't even did Because humans are not, in fact, rational human beings. We constantly blame elders for the failures of the younger generation and vice-versa. Though cruel, it's not strange for the descendants to receive punishment for the sins of their ancestors. Even if she liked him, even if he was blameless, he was still the last surviving member of the family whose existence spelled the bloody end of her father. In essence, her decision to kill Shichika was set from the very beginning. It didn't matter if the decision would later come into conflict with her feelings, because she was willing to make herself miserable for the rest of her life to get revenge.
>Anyway, I think that killing him would be a decision that she would regret for the rest of her life and it'll probably make her turn into a miserable and unhappy woman. That much is obvious anon. That's exactly why the Sage points out that she can't get what she wants while holding onto revenge and yet can't achieve her ambition while getting what she wants.
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