hey i'm a girl and I don't get why there is a problem with abortion
like I don't want a kid right now I'm not going have a kid into poverty I don't want. cus that how criminals become, from broken familys
Like I don't have to save every fucking sperm cell, every time a guy jizzes.
like the seed fell into the ground, It doesn't have to grow if its a poison tree
Whats the REAL reason why religions people are so angry about your fucking unborn collection of cells
What the big deal, I should be able to do it safely by state, not have conservatives try to make me wait months with these new laws. I'll just punch myself in the stomach. But again I shouldn't have to hurt myself to get something done like that because some weirdos have problems
Because religions thrive on the religious. You need people to sustain the community through the generations. They simply don't want to lose potential converts.
This is also why murder is forbidden but warfare is readily encouraged. The subtext is that it's okay to kill everyone else. Just don't kill people from your tribe.
>This is also why murder is forbidden but warfare is readily encouraged. The subtext is that it's okay to kill everyone else. Just don't kill people from your tribe.
I don't get the analogy
Don't ask this here. Do some fucking research and make you're own decisions.
Are you religious?
Are you for or against the death penalty?
In your opinion, where does life begin or end?
Do you really think "it's my body" is an argument? In that case, are you for or against euthanasia?
I'm not religious, but I'm pro-life. I understand that there are grey areas, but such careless treatment of unborn children can be problematic. It could lead to post birth abortions, etc.
>Whats the REAL reason why religions people are so angry about your fucking unborn collection of cells
They value life. That collection of cells is a material system that if you leave alone lives its life. Just like you. With your logic, you cold be killed on the street just as well without repercussions. The only thing they take away from you is just the rest of your life, exactly what you take away from that collection of cells.
NO. Murder is against the rules because it disturbs society. It brings down property values, it freaks people out and robs the government of a taxpayer. That's why murder is illegal. It's bad for society.
Whereas abortion is good for society and doesn't affect it in a negative way whatsoever.
OP, A lot of people have this idea that an embryo at conception is like a precious gift from God or whatever, and the rest of them just don't like women being able to dodge responsibility.
But it's a legal procedure and right in the US so they need to GTFOver it and start fighting some battles they can win.
I'm not religious and I think anyone should have the right to get an abortion if they feel it's the best choice. But I also think you're killing a baby, and you shouldn't just treat that action like it doesn't mean anything at all.
I agree with you that it isn't any good for a child to be born unwanted into poverty, and getting an abortion might be the most merciful decision for your child. But your attitude about it is kind of disturbing.
Maybe you should be using condoms or at least some kind of birth control. There are so many options for birth control it's ridiculous that you just don't use any at all. Be a little more careful so that things like this don't happen. you could also save yourself from AIDS or other STDs. Smarten the fuck up, and drop the "fuck everyone else" attitude
It's not an analogy. It's literally how many religions treat death.
Killing an unborn baby is murder because that baby could have been raised in/converted to a particular faith, upping their numbers. Going to Afghanistan and shooting a Talibani is fine because you're "fighting to defend your faith."
Both involve something vaguely human being extinguished. The difference in damnation is purely based on the interests of the religious community in question. You can even flip it around to the opposite side. Abortion in Islam? Eternal hell. Blow yourself up and take out a bus full of people? 72 virgins in heaven.
Fervently religious people are only on autopilot chanting "abortion is sin" because that's what they're taught to think. But the underlying reason behind it is because religions want to sustain and thrive. You need people to do that. A constant influx of babies. Hence, abortion is bad.
why so angry
a collection of UNborn cells is as much of life as a tumor is a collection of cells
Also if the child is unwanted, unpreparded, into poverty, then they become tumor to society cus they are WAY morel likely to be criminals
this is why the crime rate dropped when abortion was legalized, crime was though to continually rise up to the point where everyplace would be ransacked.
Don't know why other girls can't use logic rather than FEELINGS
you don't have to save every egg you shed naturally monthly either.
Women are just the unfortunate/lucky ones who have to carry the child and give birth and provide half the dna n shit. If it was as a simple as a woman laying an egg, it would, for most people be considered the same smashing an egg intentionally that you know will produce a child.
Further more, the problem comes in, at what point does some one earn their title of human being and alive? Do you feel entitled to your right to life? at what point do you feel you earned that?
A lot of people feel that very early stages of pregnancy life is determined and that is a very reasonable ideology. There is a difference between an accidental miscarriage and killing some one by accident and some one doing it intentionally.
There are also people that believe preventive birth control is wrong, and those people are crazy.
What you take away from it is still the same. Also, you need society for survival as well, and if you draw the line at being self sufficient in a society, you can legalize murdering kids.
Isn't post birth abortion just called murder?
I'm not religious, but I can't really say if I stand for or against abortions.
If you got accidently pregnant while taking precautions, and you REALLY can't take care of a baby, then it's ok to abort. If you got pregnant by getting raped, ok. If the fetus is going to die or live miserably for 5 hours, ok.
But if you're just too cool to use a condom, it's not the baby's fault. If you don't want it you can always give it up for adoption so at least it'll stand a chance.
I'm in college and if I got pregnant now I wouldn't have an abortion. I would take care of the baby if I could and if I couldn't I would ask my parents for help, then I would finish my degree when the kid starts school.
Does poverty always lead to criminals? No.
You may be poor, but if you grow up surrounded by good people and love, money won't matter.
My mom got pregnant at 16, and she chose to have me. They were poor, but I grew up really happy with my parents and my grandma. I've always been a nice kid and got good grades. You could be a millionaire and give birth to a psycho, so don't blame the abortion on what the baby could or could not become.
thats cus you WANT the baby
others don't, they should have the freedom to healthy have a abortion
See, your logic is flawed for multiple reasons, but the main one is this: A woman doesn't suddenly GAIN rights if she's raped or BC fails. A fetus is either precious and important or it isn't. Either it has the right to exist or it doesn't.
And you can't ask a woman why she's having a legal, medical procedure she has the right to have. You don't have that right. It's between her and a doctor, period.
>Like I don't have to save every fucking sperm cell
Sperm cells aren't people you disgusting subhuman. Unborn children are just that children. It's why punching a pregnant woman in the stomach is worse than doing it to a regular person.
I hope you die slowly and painfully.
you don't get to make the choice whether its morally ok in THIS or THAT situation to abort a fetus
If you had a child mid college you would be irresponsible
so yea your mom had you at 16, still really fucking irresponsible
You don't ever get to tell someone when its ok for them to have a baby or no, condom or not
I believe it's killing a life, and would prefer if a woman see the pregnancy through and just give it up.
BUT, I'm more into people being able to do what they want with their bodies. Not by much, but it wins out over my idea of life.
That's why I said I don't know if I'm against it or for it. But it is matter of the doctor, so there should be some regulation on the reasons the patient gets access to that legal procedure, just like there is for people who want to have sex reassigment.
Or would it be healthy to have the ORs full of 18 years old girls who didn't want to use a condom?
I think they make good money
> there should be some regulation on the reasons the patient gets access to that legal procedure,
Like I said, you can't do that. It's neither practical or logically sound. You're going to have every woman coming in saying they were raped. And as for sex reassignment, those precautions aren't done for legally mandated reasons, they're done for MEDICAL reasons and reasons of liability.
Nearly everyone has a personal stance on abortion and it has nothing to do with being religious. I think you should be able to get abortions whenever you want but it's still disappointing to hear that someone gave up on having a child just because it wasn't convenient at the time. I think that if you're responsible enough to have sex than you're responsible enough to take care of a baby.
Anons was talking about religion and you take about economy. Read the post again.
I find it pretty reasonable though to be honest, many (not all) religions at their core do not propagate much violence at all, it's the religious people who choose to twist interpretations or outright create schisms, cherry-picking what they think is right.
> if you're responsible enough to have sex than you're responsible enough to take care of a baby.
That's fully retarded. Sex is fun and it's free. You're not going to be able to stop young people, poor people, or stupid people from fucking. They're not going to stop fucking. IT's never going to happen. Come back down to earth.
Now you are prejudiced and still try to justify your point with feelings and unable to refute logic. We were talking about the value of a fetus. With your logic you could kill all the kids in poor neighborhoods because they are worthless.
No one's gonna stop fucking. But if they DON'T want a baby they should use a fucking condom instead of fucking however they want and then just having a abortion if they got unlucky.
>it's still disappointing to hear that someone gave up on having a child just because it wasn't convenient at the time
how do we really need another unwanted gangster
>I think that if you're responsible enough to have sex than you're responsible enough to take care of a baby.
too bad, at no point of having sex does a pop up screen stop you from cumming unless you have ''These'' parental requirements.
tell that to rape victims because there old enough to have sex, tell them it a real shame they didn't have a rapist's baby
Sex isn't always fun and it's not always free. I don't want to stop young people, poor people, or stupid people from fucking. They're not going to stop fucking. IT's never going to happen.
>Now you are prejudiced and still try to justify your point with feelings and unable to refute logic
>54% of women having abortions had used a contraceptive method (usually the condom or the pill) during the month they became pregnant.
Most of them do. Not that it's legally any of your business.
It's just very unenlightened for a community bound together on principles from a divine source. The value of a human life insofar as human-human interactions should not be pegged on that person's beliefs. And I mean that literally, as in Islam where blood money (monetary compensation for death) actually derives from a schedule based on the deceased's religious affiliation.
When we start to differentiate "our numbers" from "their numbers" in the context of killing, we're doing something that should be reserved for God. God will handle us differently on the basis of our faith. Here on Earth, we're not tasked with making that judgment ourselves. So it's hypocritical, I think. If murder is wrong then everyone is equal, and all killing is equally bad. Don't take umbrage to abortion and then celebrate death elsewhere.
Well, I agree with your statement, merely I claim that there are religions which at their core also agree with it. It's later work of religious figures and leaders of certain importance that redefine certain expectations and behaviors.
Not that anon, but people get upset when a kid dies. When a woman has an abortion the only people who know about it are the woman and the doctor. This relieves society of both an emotional burden, and a future financial one.
Also adults have more rights than children do, so it would make more sense that kids have more rights than embryos.
> it disturbs society
Fuck society. - RHPS
> robs the government of a taxpayer.
> abortion doesn't affect it in a negative way whatsoever.
You don't expect the government to still be collecting taxes 18 years from now?
> it's a legal procedure
Not necessarily. Roe v. Wade simply said that the 10th Amendment tosses the decision to the states. A state may still outlaw it.
> and right
No. You have the right to pursue happiness. You are not guaranteed happiness.
> start fighting some battles they can win.
That bullshit is what got us a 2-party system.
You don't fight because you are guaranteed to win. You fight because it is just.
>Not that anon, but people get upset when a kid dies. When a woman has an abortion the only people who know about it are the woman and the doctor.
If you define the value of something or somebody on the feelings of the people they interact with and benefit to society, you could kill all homeless, and most disabled people without repercussion.
>Also adults have more rights than children do, so it would make more sense that kids have more rights than embryos.
Adults have more rights and responsibilities because they are viewed by society as mature, self sufficient and being capable of good judgement. Neither kids or embryos are capable of those.
No, because as I said, embryos if you let them live will live a life as a human being while tumors won't. If you kill a tumor, you won't take away its life as a human being in the future. If you kill a human being or embryo, you do.
That's untrue. People kill and beat homeless people here, and it's on the news, and people are upset.
Sorry, society makes the laws, who else is going to do it? And if a state can outlaw it then why do they waste all their time passing bullshit like mandatory ultrasounds or 20 week bans, and all those semantic rules? IT STILL IS A LEGAL PROCEDURE whether you like it or not. Go cry more.
>Whats the REAL reason why religions people are so angry about your fucking unborn collection of cells
the first anon was right, but also it's about controlling women and pregnancies/population in general (not by men, mind you; by the religion itself)
It's a lasting bastion of religious nuttery because the procedure itself is icky to most people so it's easier to support that then, say, a prohibition on eating shellfish.
>That's untrue. People kill and beat homeless people here, and it's on the news, and people are upset
Yes, but only if they know about it. You said that they are justified if only the murderer knows about it.
Not quite right on Roe v. Wade there:
>the Court ruled 7тАУ2 that a right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that this right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting women's health and protecting the potentiality of human life. Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the third trimester of pregnancy.
>The Court later in Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey rejected Roe's trimester framework, while affirming Roe's central holding that a person has a right to abortion until viability. The Roe decision defined "viable" as being "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid," adding that viability "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."
Also, abortion is a medical procedure, not a legal one. What the fuck?
You're being way too literal. There are very, very few cases in which you can murder someone and have no one know about it, whether it's the family of the victim or finding a body in your neighborhood. You're ignoring my main point which is that murder upsets society, it stops commerce, it gives people a sad. Abortion robs society of nothing, except saving it a few bucks in welfare checks, because that is the only way you can quantify the unborn.
> viewed by society
Adults have (the illusion of) rights because, 240 years ago, a bunch of them stood up against a King 3400 miles (5500 km for you Eurofags) away.
Today people in Syria are doing the same thing. Unfortunately, there's oil beneath their ground, so every nation with bombers are determined to kill every last one of them.
Actually you can murder anyone in plain sight and not upset society if you sell it to the people well. People are emotional, if you manipulate their emotions well you can sell them murder, war, and just about any atrocity as just and they will love you and feel sorry for you. That doesn't justify murder and lying.
so everyone dies eventually
But YOU don't have the right to decide when that collection of cells dies, ITS MURDER
You're really jumping through hoops here to try and convince me that the murder of a person out in society can be ok. You have to try this hard to still be wrong then there's something wrong with your argument. People try and justify things like the murder of Eric Garner and Trayvon Martin, but guess what? People still got fucking pissed off.
Still society doesn't recognize it, or they would elect kids as president. Also, infants can't take care of themselves and can't make good judgement, and they habe more rights than embryos.
they don't have to be president but they are capable of amazing things
maybe a 11 year old pres would be good, they would have no learned bullshit and would say it as it is
>President, should we sent troops to the middle east
>''why, w, why would we do that? we're just going there for, for , for ,ffor the oil, leave those guy alone.''
but its a metaphor for tumors being a collection of cells
if you can kill a tumor you are a murderer
because it a collection of cells like a fetus
but I know if the doc said you need to remove the tumor you wouldn't say
>NO because that MURDER
even though its the same concept
As I said in >>16323142 tumors won't live a life as a human beings if you let them live. Just like rat or mice or pigs, that's why it is ok to slaughter them.
FYI you are a collection of cells as well.
If my birth had given my mother depression, and it would of severly damaged her life quality, I wouldnt mind of being aborted. Well, I wouldnt of yet had a mind to mind of, so eh.
>I do enjoy life, thats not the case.
Thank you. I stand corrected.
> society makes the laws
Fuck society. You seem hung up on this society thing.
> who else is going to do it?
Last I checked, I pulled a bunch of levers in a booth for a group of old men to do it.
> IT STILL IS A LEGAL PROCEDURE
I never wrote that it wasn't. Legal =/= right.
Legal especially =/= that my taxpayer dollars have to fund the clinic that does it.
I'm pro choice and all that, but I don't understand how people don't get the pro life side. Lifers think after conception the fetus is human. Yep its cells, and yep it would die without the mother, but it will unarguable become a baby if not interfeared with, and babies would also die almost instantly without a mother figure. Its not hard to see it from the othrr perspective, even if you dont agree. They get this passionate because, to them, its legalized baby murder. Its not, but again, I can see why that would be a big deal if your morality lead you to feel that way about potential human life. How is it hard to understand that position, are you all so conceited you can't walk in the shoes of those you disagree with?
The tumor is also HUMAN cells
Therefor HUMAN Life
If you say a UN born collection of cells has the same rights as a already born adult human being then it is murder
By killing the tumor you are saying it is not the same rights as a already born human and it IS ok to kill it. EVEN though It is a Collection of HUMAN cells just like a Unborn fetus is a collection of cells
Therefor by killing a tumor you are saying its ok to kill a unborn fetus as they are both Collections of HUMAN cells
And you have no right to cut ones life because ALL life is PRECIOUS according to your Ideology
You have a false premise
A tumor's cells are not going to develop into a new human
If you're going to argue, do it correctly
Don't accuse me of being pro-life either, I wish I could kill you for being so stupid
While its not about me, I am voicing an opinion.
Im pretty sure some people wouldnt want to think that their existence is the reason their family is in poverty and in ruins, and would rather choose the not existing option.
>But again, no mind or capability to understand the situation when in the womb, so eh
No, a tumor is genetically different than human cells. HeLa cells from the 50s live as laboratory pests today without forming a body. Human cells with proper genetic information on the other hand do, and live a life as a human being. If tumors had the same genetical programming as your cells, they would form a body similar to yours.
No, it's not. Different genetical programming, different species. You can't fuck a tumor and have kids with, yet it's still life, so according to biological classification it's a different species created by mutation.
I get what your saying but saying that a collection of cells is legalized baby murder is like saying a tumor, which is a collection of cells is legalized human murder of the same variety
You're actually fucking completely retarded if you're trying to base an argument in scientific fact where science is still completely out of the fucking window. We don't even understand how consciousness works.
And also by this argument you are also saying that you yourself are a tumor. You're not trying to be anything but a fedora tipping edgelord for a liberal cuckfest narrative.
No, you are monoclonal except for immune cells, but this isn't even important. The important thing is that your cells have a programming that enables them to form and maintain your body, so you could live as a conscious and sentient human being, where tumor cells don't have that.
I'm pretty sure you couldn't possibly know that without first asking.
I'm "pretty sure" the vast, vast, vast, VAST majority of aborted fetuses would have preferred not being aborted if given the opportunity to grow up into an adult and given the choice. Most humans prefer to exist, even in shitty circumstances.
But thats irrelevent because the truth is this " I'm aborting them so THEY don't have to suffer!" is a completely fabricated self-centered justification.
It's exactly like saying I go get Thai ladyboy massages because I want to support their business.
>aborted fetuses would have preferred not being aborted if given the opportunity to grow up
Well DURRRR, but they didn't so it literally makes absolutely no difference to them whatsoever. There's no quantifiable loss.
Also a lot of people who abort young end up having kids later in life when they're more financially/emotionally stable. You're not just aborting for your own sake, or society's, you're aborting for the sake of your FUTURE children.
>there's a lot of sperm cell that would love to be born if they had the choice to grow
How fucking dare you KILL MILLIONS, NEH BILLIONS YOU FUCKING FAGGOT Hypocrite
Every sperm is precious
what a disgustingly pathetic shitpost.
"I killed your brother so you could have the good life!"
you're seriously trying to put the blood of your murdered children onto their own siblings hands.
you are less than human and deserve an eternity of torture so severe I do not have the necessary character limit to describe.
>They value life
No they don't. The don't value the life of the mother or any other kids she might already have that she can barely support. They don't value the lives of all the unwanted children in orphanages and foster care, or the ones who can't even be guaranteed food every day. They don't value life at all, what they value is having control over a decision that a woman makes unilaterally. They can't FUCKING stand that concept.
take note that this is the level of intelligence of every single abortion advocate.
no, you utterly worthless failure, a sperm cell will never, ever, at any point, grow into a human. it will never happen.
put a sperm cell in a uterus by itself and it still won't grow. give it all the nutrients it wants and it still won't grow. make as many pathetic shitposts as you want and it. still. won't. grow.
just highlights that abortion advocates are incompetent to control their own lives, let alone have control over anyone else's.
Because literally all you guys give a shit about is that the baby is born and absolutely nothing after that.
That's the beauty of abortion. No one else will ever know about it. Ever. If you believe God will punish me, then let him do so. Other than that, I'll see no repercussions besides my financially stable domestic bliss and my two beautiful first-world children who will never go hungry or have to worry about the power or water going out. They're born into a stable nuclear household which is a statistical advantage for their future. This is how children should be born. This is the responsible way.
>Because literally all you guys give a shit about is that the baby is born and absolutely nothing after that
No, we also give a shit about them growing up and becoming healthy adults. With your logic, you could kill your kids if you go bankrupt because they lose their statistical advantage an it will become irresponsible.
Nope. Murder of a living person in society disturbs people and disrupts civilization. I've stated this before. If you can't take care of you kids anymore you can always give them up to someone who will. You keep making these comparisons to try desperately validate your point but they fall flat. You're trying to validate something WORSE in order to convince us that abortion is wrong. You're shit at it.
>No, we also give a shit about them growing up and becoming healthy adult
lies that not what your actions say, one its out the box, who give a fuck right
pro lifers by definition don't give a fuck after birth of a child thats not their resposiblity
Agree with this guy. I'm not religious (people always seem to bring up my religion when I talk about abortion), but I'm pro-life. To me, there are two main points when considering abortion:
1) Life begins at conception. This is a scientifically incontrovertible fact. You won't find a scientist who will debate this point. At conception, you have a genetically unique being who will inevitably grow into a human, just like you or me.
2) Taking innocent human life is wrong. This is a moral tenet that humanity has tried to espouse for ages.
If you don't argue these two points, then you should be adamantly pro-life. If you disagree with point 1, you need to educate yourself, and if you disagree with point 2, you need mental help.
"My body my choice" is not a real argument. You're not only considering your body, but the body of your child. "Pro-choice" is a laughable term for being pro-abortion, since by murdering the child you are in fact preventing it from choosing anything at all, ever. Abortion is an excuse by women to dodge responsibility.
I'm pointing out flaws in your logic and not validate something that is just as wrong as abortion. If you can't take care of your unborn child, you can give them up for adoption as well. Murdering in secret so others don't find out won't make it anymore right, no matter how many times you state it.
>At conception, you have a genetically unique being who will inevitably grow into a human, just like you or me.
No you don't. There's a 50% chance it won't even implant and just be flushed out the vagina with the woman being none the wiser. If you can't find a scientist who will debate that point, you might want to look for a scientist somewhere else besides up your own ass.
Why is a miscarraige of a wanted body considered tragic but an abortion is considered okay by the pro-choice crowd? Both are going to turn out to be a full human.
Everyone has the right to life. We were all in that situation in the womb, would you be on this planet to be "pro-choice" if your mother had decided to abort you?
The real issue here is, people not being chaste anymore until marriage, not being careful with contraception and the breakdown of the family. Thats why these children are unwanted.
Nice sidestep. I see you didn't address the actual points, but instead picked a hypothetical to divert your having to actually consider the implications of the simple layout of fact.
>Hurr what if pregnant woman run over by bulldozer? You said inevitable so your wrong durr scientist out of your ass
Not the one who said it, but I think we can safely assume he meant in a normal pregnancy where there is no outside interference or lack of implantation. Inevitable meaning it is certainly human, not that it will certainly be a viable pregnancy.
He said conception, not onset of pregnancy. Also even when called out on it he still deflected instead of correcting himself so I can safely assume that's not what he meant.
And even if it did implant it's still not inevitable it will grow into a human. It could spontaneously abort at any time.
Also notice he said "grow into a human just like you or me"
Also bullshit. It could grow into a human with no brain or no spine or any other number of defects detectable well before the time of viability of a normal fetus and not live 5 minutes out of the womb.
But I guess just forcing the mother through the rest of the 5 months of pregnancy and trauma of giving birth is worth it because....reasons. MUH LIFE
You sound like a nitpicking edgelord. Someone makes a pretty compelling argument, and rather than address the argument, you attack semantics. If anything that seems like a capitulation to me.
*tips fedora* Have a nice evening, good sir.