Can we all take a moment to acknowledge that if your gender identity doesn't match your body then you are mentally ill? It's not healthy to have a disconnect between your body and your identity. Whatever about accepting people who aren't cis-gendered. I accept people for who they are in more extreme situations than this.....EXCEPT when they get into the fuckin politics of the matter.
you know they are not changing their sex right? sex in something genetic, not anatomic, for example, if a man loses his penis in a car accident o something he is not automatically a women, is he? no, but using your logic then if i manage to put miself a tail, and get to grow hair all over my body and start meawing i'll turn myself into a cat?... no
Sure, but I think it's worth looking deeper than that.
The wave of "acceptance" lately is ridiculous. Not so much the trans issue specifically but shit like fat acceptance gives me the impression that there is a wave of people out there ready to accept anything people do as healthy just for the sake of promoting acceptance. And I think this is deranged kek. It shouldn't be an issue to ask the question "are non cis-gendered people actually just ill?
>That is a good thing
Subjective and from an objective POV, it's actually not. A risky surgery that more than likely will leave the person more detached from both reality and society, if not physically broken. Enabling this behavior is crippling to our society's mental stability as a whole and encourages greater depths into deviance, suicidal actions or even homicidal ones. It's wrong by all accounts.
not necesarly, for example, when a man tries to become muscular and uses steroids (knowing the consecuenses but accepting it) and then he became a really bug guy, it is a sighn of insecurity, but cuting your dick of and putting yourself fake boobs is not? you can not say it is some thing good or something bad, you can only give an opinion in this kind of cases, and saying that is a ba d thing is as a strong position that saying is a good thing
0/10 for making me respond.
I don't get homosexuality or transgender people and think what they do is a little weird. But as long as they keep that shit to themselves, I have no problems with them or what they do
JUST A REMINDER TO ALL OF THE VIOLENT PERVERTED MISOGYNISTIC RAPISTS ON THIS SITE.
I have been "lurking" (as you nerds put it) on this terrible website for months compiling data for a book I'm publishing about the dangerous patriarchal underbelly of the internet; What I have discovered during my time here fills me with nausea and rage.
The media-at-large have been monitoring this cesspool for some time now. From child pornography to submitting evidence of murder to the illegal proliferation of nude photographs of celebrities and girlfriends, your pathetic little secret club has been exposed for the rotting tumor on society it is.
The United States Federal government has been working in tandem with overseas and international law enforcement organizations to aggressively pursue and shutter websites such as this and bring and complicit perpetrators to justice.
Consider this a warning you miserable worms. Your time is coming...
I have the impression that people fear being labeled oppressive. And there are no values to hang on to that work for most people, except for platitudes like being honest, treating people well, etc.
they are mentally ill, one does not allow someone suffering from a mental illness to do what they want. They can't make rational decisions that are in their best interest so we don't allow them to. This is what we do with every other mental illness but not transsexualism, why?
Despite being a mutilation, that is not what people hope to achieve. It is to bridge the gap between their mental and physical identities. If you want to call this dissonance a mental illness, go ahead. I'd rather not because I don't want to cause unnecessary pain.
Yeah i think Id agree with that.
It makes me feel protective of my right to take unpopular positions though and I don't particularly care about the politics behind having rights in the first place... So it's an invasive kind of Orwellian feel.
I'm pretty sure if someone isn't strongly mentally ill then they still get a choice.
Is it healthy? Maybe not. But neither is smoking? I could argue smokers are mentally ill. Do we stop them? No.
unnecessary pain is what you cause when you condemn these people to a life or mental illness instead of trying to help them like we do with every other mental illness. No other mental illness is treated this way. But LGBT, so T must equal G and we all no how much gays where mistreated, this is just reactionary bullshit.
Yeah but would you feel that people who voluntarily choose to get a circumcision later in life are mentally ill and worthy of intervention from your government? I live in a country that respects individual rights and if someone wants to play hide the sausage with other dudes, that's totally their business.
See will should allow other mentally ill people to do what they want to them self. you are aware of how every other mental illness i treated right? if these people where not suffering from a mental illness they would not want to mutilate them self so a rational society would not let them.
smokers smoke because they enjoy it they are willing to take the risks, nothing inherently wrong with that thought process. But thinking your not the sex you are is not something you should think and then wanting to mutilate you self because of that faulty thought process is a problem. What i want is transsexualisms to be treated the same as every other mental illness.
Being cis is not considered to be the normal sexual identity, except in its statistical meaning. So you suggest treating their illness. What would the cure be? If psychologists and psychiatrists can't agree on that, I'm not the one who will insist.
I do. Unless they are putting themselves in mortal danger or threatening others, the government can't do shit. Just the way I like it. I think people who get tattoos are mentally ill, but it's not my place to judge them
>Smokers effect both them and the people around them.
>The risks clearly outweigh the benefits.
>Anyone who smokes is mentally ill and I want them to be treated.
You can twist so many things like this.
Being transgender should only effect you. Smoking effects the people around you as well and is WAY WORSE than someone getting a sex change..
sex is not an identity it a your reproductive functionality. gender is not an identity it's a bunch of traits associated with sex. gender identity is the gender you feel is most like you which means very little and should not compel you to mutilate your self.
>a rational society would not let them
It's a jump to say " this person can't take care of themselves, so we're stepping in" (pic somewhat related kek.)
Yeah I know how other mental illnesses are treated but there are plenty of other operations similar to this. Are you also against breast implants?
Some trans like to avoid classifying as mentally ill due to stigma associated with the term.
Like some idiots have alrdy claimed in this thread "mentally ill = cant make decisions//are not rational" - This is nonsense, a huge majority of people experience mental illness at points in their lives, and remain rational human beings who can make informed decisions about their life.
As for why does society let people mutilate their genitals it is again fairly simple. For people who are trans and feel they want the surgery, the data on their satisfaciton and wellbeing after having it, suggests it is a very good procedure for them.
I'm trans and transexualism could be defined as a mental illness, but people unfamailiar with psychology//using their minds in general will make assumptions due to ignorance.
All the thing I said in the post where definitions of words, not sure what you can tell about my worldwide or background from that.
I feel strongly because I see people being mistreated by sociality. I think people are just trying to not make the same mistake we did in the past specifically in regard to are mistreatment of gays. I don't think LGBT should be a thing. Transsexual people are not the same as people how have a different sexual ordination to heterosexual.
You can make a distinction though. Cutting is an act done with self destruction in mind (though not necessarily) whereas gender swapping is done with creating in mind. There's room to argue that there should be times when a surgery is denied... but I find it hard to argue for what would actually qualify for a denial.
Lol well you're actually capable of looking like the opposite sex and changing your anatomy chemically to a certain degree whereas you are simply not a dog. I'll talk about transgendered people but I have no time for otherkin kek
Mutilating your genitals is self destruction perhaps you don't know exactly what is involved in a "sex" reassignment surgery. Which they can't see because of their mental illness.
I'm not sure I can agree with that. I think wanting to change your body with surgery for a cosmetic effect is always a sign of an unhealthy mind. I still wouldn't condem though
Still not my business or yours. You may want to blur the line, but to me it's very clear. If it doesn't affect me or others, it's not my business. If some dude wants to smoke weed, cut up his dick, and make cat scratches on his arm, that's his decision and not mine.
I'm talking about the mind frame buddy. Not the actual act. If it has the intent to create a new image of yourself it's a creative act whereas if it was self destructive it would be with intent to destroy the your old self. There's a distinction between the 2 acts on a mental level that I think are important. I agree with one and not the other.
Regardless I think both are mental illness. Just not on equal terms.
You deal with the hand you are given In life.
Tough shit if you were born a woman in the body of a man. You have a first world problem and the fact that you let it ruin your life makes you weak.
Do you think Jews wanted to be Jews during ww2 or do you think black people whited to be black when they were being attacked on the street.
Fuck you and your transgender bullshit.
Get a job and pay for your parents mistakes
I can hardly deny that GID can be seen as a mental disorder. It is even listed in recent ICDs (ICD-10 64.0) and this is often beneficial to trans people in countries with social healthcare (some costs are taken care of by health insurance).
Though there is a growing body of evidence that the brain of, for example, a trans woman matches that of an biological woman by far more than a typicaly male brain.
One source: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132
The currently leading theory is that the brain in trans women was not sufficiently androgynized during pregnancy. And vice versa in trans men.
So it can be seen as a simple brain-body mismatch. This still fits the image of a disorder, since said mismatch can cause severy psychological complications. Often resulting in depression and suicide. Even psychosis is not unheard of.
Practically all symptoms can be completely relieved by letting affected individuals live as the gender they feel they are (living as as the "gender of the brain").
Since GID generally causes disgust by the natal genitalia, it is often beneficial to change it surgically.
Society currently plays a rather negative role in the mental health of trans people. In addition to self hate for their body, said individuals also have to face discrimination at ever corner (study below).
This makes it easy to see why aproximately 45 percent (study below) attempt suicide at least once in their lifetime.
TL;DR I plea you not to be so harsh on trans people. They have it hard enough as it is.
Thank you for your attention!
Explanation, well they think they want so they are happy when they get it, one would expect the outcomes to be positive. The problem they are still suffering from a mental illness and now they have been allowed to permanently harm there self because of it. Now you have condemned them to a life of mental illness or have to make them live with the knowledge of what was done to them while they where suffering form their illness.
Perhaps I would think differently if a sex changes actually was.
nope. Well not really.
Maybe alot more gay sex stuff, as guys'll get too horny not to use themselves as outlets. But you won't suddenly get more guys having boyfriends and wanting to "spend the rest of their days in the loving arms of hairy Mike,"
Most "straight" guys have fapped to some type of gay porn once or twice in their lives, but none of them would ever feel like they'd want to be in a relationship with another dude.
Well they think it's creative because they think they are the other sex when they are not. Don't reply if you don't know the difference between sex, gender and gender identity.
Fuck you for being arrogant enough to tell someone what they can do in the privacy of their own home. I don't get why transgender people do what they do. But I do think that the decision is up to them and unless they are harming others it's their business and not yours
you faggots and you're want to "identify" as something.
Why don't you fucking realize that no matter what you identify as you will still always be what you are doing what you do.
Didn't you hear? the arguement is that you are BORN gay, therefore it's natural and not a problem!
You know, like when a kid is born with brittle bone disease. They were born with it, therefore a-okay and the parents get offended at the notion of "curing" it.
I've been dating a transgendered woman for the past 3 months, she's amazing. She's a woman through and though. At this point her dick is small and not a problem. Alo she's always in the mood. So what's wrong with transgendered people again?
>Most "straight" guys have fapped to some type of gay porn once or twice in their lives, but none of them would ever feel like they'd want to be in a relationship with another dude.
Oh ho. Looks like we have another closet gay in denial, who's taking his anger out on others. Go cry somewhere else faggot.
Listen to Gary Oldman. Children are being mutilated because of this movement.
If you can prove it's a mental illness, you might have a point. I can't say it's something I'm in favour of either, but sweeping statements like this can be applied to anything. "Being against it is a mental illness", "being racist is a mental illness", "liking Star Wars is a mental illness".
You're a 5'3 manlet beta
>lol kill yourself
You don't have the genitals you want
>oh you poor baby, let's do some highly invasive surgery in the hope of turning you into a halfway freak so you can have the life you deserve!
They're mentally ill. Refer to OP.
>don't imply I mean not to have relationships with them
>don't imply I mean anything other than they are mentally ill.
>also take mentally ill by its actual definition and not as an insult
yes, a person is bron with focomelia so it is natural and it is okay... not, it is not okay, but they cant control it, BUT instead of hating them they should be receibing help to this issue... (mental illness)
My daughter is a happy and carefree girl. My wife is happy staying at home And the transgender faggot is unhappy in the cage in my basement.
Everything is normal in my household
>Society currently plays a rather negative role in the mental health of trans people
You say society is the negative aspect, yet this deviance of transgender has only been around for the last fifty years. Society isn't the issue, transgenderism is.
>Inb4 acceptance of it will better society
>bleed from there vagina
> get there vagina ripped open in child birth
> are not as strong (there for can not protect them selves as well
> Manipulated by men
The tougher you are the more power you have. Men are tougher then women, thus are better.
"There are people who believe their own limbs don’t belong to them. They suffer from something called body integrity identity disorder, which is rare, and generally affects white middle-aged men. (No one knows why.) Doctors, understandably, tend not to hack off the offending limbs to make reality concord with fantasy.
There are also people who believe that they are dead. This belief is known as the Cotard delusion. Medical professionals do not kill patients suffering from this condition: instead, pharmacological treatments are administered, which can be very effective. Patients who do not respond to the cocktail of prescribed antidepressants and antipsychotic drugs are, similarly, not bumped off.
So why, in the case of another, related and very high-profile disease, suffers of which believe they were born with the wrong sex organs, do we, rather than treating the disorder with medication and therapy, instead go about warping reality to conform to delusion? Partly that’s because we’re generally nice people, and we don’t like to deny someone who is clearly suffering, who has asked for something they think will help them and which does not directly affect other people."
>pseudo-intellectual gender-deviant acceptance detected
Back to tumbler faggot
Right to satisfy your sexual desires. I get it and am totally cool with that. What you do in your own house is your business, as long as you don't play pokey with your daughter.
I don't see how the specific nature of the faulty thought process makes any difference. They are still mentally ill, they are still harming them selves, and if there where not mentally ill they would not want it done to them. So why should they not be treated equal, how is it different? them thinking (because of there mental illness ) that it's creative does not change the reality that it's destructive.
where did I say anything angrily there?
I was only saying that when someone calls themself "gay" they usually mean they also have romantic feelings for dudes, not just aroused by sex.
Way to project there bub,
Actually having a penis and sperm producing testicles and having higher levels of testosterone in your body is objectively "manliness." Quit trying to use your pseudo-psychology to rationalize your mental disease as anything other than that, a disease. You can identify with a gender you don't belong to but that doesn't make it normal, it makes it a mental illness.
Gender is a set of traits associated with a particular sex, being more like the other is not a mental illness, though thinking it means anything is stupid. But wanting to mutilate your genitals because of it is a mental illness.
>rape people and get away and get call a heroe
>being allowed to hit man not never get hit back
>by law you have to get hired of the company is misogynistic
>can decide if you whant to have a child or not while man have to just accept your decition
and also there is something call cesarea, and by the way kidney stone and liver stones are a lot more paifull (women that have give birth vaginal AND had suffer from thi other thing said so)
> not being as strong: man protect you wich i think is a privilege
>women manipulet men too
im not saying that all the women have this intentionally, but neither white people or other privilge group people says there is
Yeah, I guess in between the shit my wife gives me and the shit my boss gives me, I just don't have any energy at the end of my day to actively hate on gays. Whatever energy I have is wasted here on /b. Speaking of which, time to clock out
well in effect you are saying that you acknowledge that both acts are desired as a result of mental illness, so my question is why should one be allowed and the other not when both acts are not desirable to the same person not suffering from the mental illness. Whether within the illness they think it's a good or bad thing we have to consider what they would want if they where not suffering from the mental illness.
Okay then. Won't lie, a bit of young cock now and again tweaks my dick. Never denied that. Doesn't bother me much son.
However I take it then that you're of the belief that if there was only men on the planet, that we'd all be gay? Because as I recall, my comment was disagreeing with that notion, yet this got you mad.
Again, talk about projecting.
I consider myself bi, seeing as the though of both anal sex (both giving and receiving) arouses me.
However, I don't remember being the one admitting to wanking over gay porn. Not hating, just making a point.
all non male/ female genders are mentally ill, all bi people are trying to either fit in with degenerates, or are mentally ill, gay "people" are just peices of shit who deserve to hang.
the rreason "people" is quoted is because i key part of humans is the ability to naturally reproduce.
Dude bisexuality is just a way for people to take it up the arse and not have to come out of the closet. You will eventually.
However if a girl is bi she is just attention seeking or a feminazi who hates men
>be a baby
>get dropped on head
>grow up to be feminist
>publish book about shitty ideals
>feminists love it
>ask where i got the info
>tell them 4chan
that's not going to go over well i can tell you that
>being allowed to hit man not never get hit back
If a woman hit me, i would put her in her place.
Why the fuck would you want to rape someone?
>can decide if you whant to have a child or not while man have to just accept your decition
I chose who i want to fuck, chances are if i have fucked you, i have wanted to get you pregnant (that's why people have sex).
> not being as strong: man protect you wich i think is a privilege
Women need men to protect them from other men (not all men want to protect women).
>women manipulet men too
Yeah, stupid men like you lol
meh. I wouldn't put too much faith in the DSM in this regard. Was talking to a psychologist as part of an internship and he said that a lot of changes made to the DSM were influenced heavily by politics instead of science
I know what you were doing. I was just pointing out there's a fallacy in saying "something fallacy" and then not explaining WHY.
If his argument's weak, it should be quick and easy to explain why.
Simply saying he's wrong and nothing else make it look like you've put your fingers in your ears and refusing to debate.
>Was talking to a psychologist as part of an internship and he said that a lot of changes made to the DSM were influenced heavily by politics instead of science
I regularly work on a psych floor in a hospital, and its still the standard of diagnosis and treatment. And the standard treatment for GID works.
"politics" probably means more than somebody peopel are getting increasingly butthurt that their pet morality isn't informing the text as much
> not being as strong: man protect you wich i think is a privilege
It's better to be a man, because men can protect them selves and go out and not have to worry about being a target because you are a big scary man and no one wants to fuck with a scary man. that's why men are better than women
Fear builds respect
Women do not get as much respect as men. that's why there call sluts and have only recently been allowed to vote.
He was talking specifically about the changes to the axes in regard to the autism spectrum, but anyway I wasn't saying the DSM isn't useful or accurate in other instances, that's why I said "in this regard." Nevertheless, the use of the DSM can be detrimental in the sense that it puts a label on people that can lead others to disregard their dignity and worth as a person
>key part of humans is the ability to naturally reproduce.
No it isn't. Its perfectly easy to create a definition of human without once appealing to any individuals reproductive status.
Wiki doe a good job:
Modern humans (Homo sapiens or Homo sapiens sapiens) are the only extant members of the hominin clade, a branch of great apes characterized by erect posture and bipedal locomotion; manual dexterity and increased tool use; and a general trend toward larger, more complex brains and societies.
"The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
What goes on at 4chan stays at 4chan. It has little connection to real life. For example, I am really an anarchist but I like to express my more fascist views here in this safe place.
I'm not sure I could justify myself in saying one should be allowed and one not. I'd say that while I find the decision to changes ones sex to be as a result of mental illness I'm not comfortable enough in my knowledge to say that it is less harmful to treat their mind rather than change their body. The reason I don't put them on equal terms to make the decision is because I think one type of person is more mentally equipped to make the decision than the other. While still mentally ill. I don't put them so high up on the scale of mental illness that they shouldn't be in control.
True, but how can he learn if you don't teach?
Though it's equally silly to dismiss natural things that are required for a species to survive, as something that shouldn't automatically be considered by most to be what we want people to have and generally called "good"
Yes, they are mentally ill.
Which is why they need treatment, possible physical surgery if it helps their mental stability, and above all an accepting environment where they can be functional.
I seriously don't understand the mental illness argument, treating transexuals as mentally ill would involve...basically the exact same thing liberals want.
I sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter. Ever since I was a boy I dreamed of soaring over the oilfields dropping hot sticky loads on disgusting foreigners. People say to me that a person being a helicopter is Impossible and I'm fucking retarded but I don't care, I'm beautiful. I'm having a plastic surgeon install rotary blades, 30 mm cannons and AMG-114 Hellfire missiles on my body. From now on I want you guys to call me "Apache" and respect my right to kill from above and kill needlessly. If you can't accept me you're a heliphobe and need to check your vehicle privilege. Thank you for being so understanding.
>Its perfectly easy to create a definition of human without once appealing to any individuals reproductive status.
He's the same type of retard that forgets there is more to propagating the species than pooping out babies.
They forget you have to raise these little shits too, something gay people can easily do, which would make them legit and productive members of society.
Well in the case of every other mental illness the illness is treated not the physical reality altered. I don't think psychologist would treat transsexualism differently to other mentally ill people if society didn't dictate that they should. Which is mainly why I hold the position that I do.
Will he lean if I try to teach him, experience says no.
It's not required that everyone be straight for the species to survive, at least not any more. Moreover, not finding the opposite sex sexually attractive does not preclude sex for reproduction.
>Well in the case of every other mental illness the illness is treated not the physical reality altered
That basically is only because there is not really anything to physically alter in a person with, say, schizophrenia or a personality disorder (except for chemical imbalances in the brain)
You gotta understand the goal of treating mental disorders is two fold: that they can function in society, and that they are not in distress. Hormonal therapy and surgery accomplishes those two things in people with GID.
>It's not healthy to have a disconnect between your body and your identity.
I agree. How should I fix said disconnect?
Fucking pedos. How could anyone get off to the idea of removing a little girl's clothes and licking her tiny body all over, nibbling her neck and kissing her adorable little nipples? Only a heartless monster would think about her cute girlish mouth and tongue wrapped around a thick cock slick with her saliva, pumping in and out of her mouth until it erupts, the cum more than her little throat can swallow.
The idea of thick viscous semen overflowing, dribbling down her chin over her flat chest, her tiny hands scooping it all up and watching her suck it off her fingertips is just horrible. You're all a bunch of sick perverts, thinking of spreading her smooth slender thighs, cock poised at the entrance to her pure, tight, virginal pussy, and thrusting in deep as a whimper escapes her lips which are slippery with cum, while her small body shudders from having her cherry taken in one quick stroke.
I am disgusted at how you'd get even more excited as you lean over her, listening to her quickening breath, her girlish moans and gasps while you hasten your strokes, her sweet pants warm and moist on your face and her flat chest, shiny with a sheen of fresh sweat, rising and falling rapidly to meet yours.
It is truly nasty how you'd run your hands all over her tiny body while you violate her, feeling her nipples hardening against your tongue as you lick her chest, her neck and her armpits, savoring the scent of her skin and sweat while she trembles from the stimulation and as she reaches her climax, hearing her cry out softly as she has her first orgasm while that cock is buried impossibly deep inside her, pulsing violently as an intense amount of hot cum spurts forth and floods through her freshly-deflowered pussy for the first time, filling her womb only to spill out of her with a sickening squelch. And as you lie atop her flushed body, she sighs breathlessly and her fingers dig into your back as she feels your cock hardening inside her again. You're all sick
>who would want gay people to bring up their kids?
Someone who doesn't want to leave his/her daughter with some creepy neckbeard.
>why not have femnazi's pick the kids up after school while we're at it?
She would be straddled with a kid. She's a strong independant woman. Forcing to have her raise a kid is forcing the patriarchy and traditional gender roles on her.
That's high level rape anon, you can't do that.
The problem is that in this specific circumstance, the illness is directly related to their physical status.
They reason why they are mentally unstable is because their bodies do not match up with what their minds "say" they should be. And mental illness can be treated, but it can rarely be cured.
So for this particular diseases, it makes sense to give them the option of physical surgery. Also worth noting that not all transexuals go through physical surgery, for some it's enough to be socially identified as their preferred gender.
Of course not, for the majority of mental illnesses that's not the case at all. The purpose is to allow them to function in society, not to lock them up from public view.
Sorry for the late response. I finally took my time to eat something...
The issue has been around for at least ~7000 years (as evident from scriptures in eastern cultures). Though it is very likely to have been around for as long as humans exist.
The main reason for the lack of visibilty of GID in western culture can be ascribed to supressive religions and the lack of possibility of transition.
In the past trans people either played as their natal role until psychological breakdown or were killed or ostrazised and died as a consequence thereof (in medieval europe for example).
>Inb4 acceptance of it will better society
It will definitely prevent many deaths. Trans people would have a much easier time. Still not as easy as cisgender people but better than now.
And i dont see any negative consequence for society.
Quite the opposite actually: All the financial harm that is done to our economy by trans people dying or not getting a job fitting their qualifications will be gone.
All in all it would raise the effective productivity of trans people.
The only thing remotely close to a downside is that they would pay far less for psychotherapy... less money for me.
And maybe, please excuse my language, whiny asswipes like you would have one minority less to bully for personal enjoyment.
In the past trans people died. Nowadays they live to tell their story.
Yes it will benefit society.
Thats fine if you think so.
I just feel like trying to persuade them off the sex change could be similar to the damage done to a gay in a save this sinner from homosexuality situation.
Actually I would consider drugs to be changing the reality. Regardless, even if there was no case where the physical reality is changed as treated I don't think it follows to say that there isn't a situation where it CAN be used.
>caring about stupid shit like this
>not caring about the banks owning the world
you goys really have your priorities right
there are some mental illness that could be treated in the same why but they are not, I can't recall any names for these mental illnesses but, for example, some people want to remove some of their limbs because they don't fell they belong to them or something like that.
>You gotta understand the goal of treating mental disorders is two fold: that they can function in society, and that they are not in distress. Hormonal therapy and surgery accomplishes those two things in people with GID.
The problem there is that the hormonal therapy and surgery are permanent, if you where to cure them of their GID later well now they have mutilated their genitals (I don't know much about the permanent effects of hormonal therapy). Also the current sex changes operations are cosmetic not actual sex change operations, if they where it might be an acceptable treatment.
It's not required for every animal of a species to try to breed for them to survive either. It doesn't mean it's incorrect for a person to claim that if a animal doesn't want to breed it's considered as having something wrong with it.
Yes you don't HAVE to find someone attractive to breed with them. But it's also fair for people to suggest that "farming" humans would be something we'd like to avoid if we could.
If there never were any women, we'd be a species where 2 same sex individuals could reproduce, and we would indeed all be gay.
If all women were to disappear overnight, we'd better hurry up with human cloning.
It is a psychiatric issue. This has been acknowledged, but it is so common and pervasive in environments and circumstances that defy enculturation or sexual orientation alone, that transgenderism is considered so overwhelmingly legitimate.
In addition, psychiatrists have been working on this for over 100 years with various men and women and in all of the hundreds of studies and treatments almost all have been harmful or actually killed the people EXCEPT when they are allowed to be themselves and get cosmetic changes that perpetuate their identity as a woman/man.
You're speaking in agnostic terms here. The future moved on from the 1980s years ago. I'm sorry you didn't get the memo. But your heart's in the right place, so I appreciate that
>some people want to remove some of their limbs because they don't fell they belong to them or something like that.
Things like body integrity disorder and Apotemnophilia.
The difference here is that treatments for those are can accomplished without the emotionally side effects of trying to counsel GID away.
Its like say that all any kind of antibiotic works on any kind of bacteria. Similar in a general sense, but the particulars fuck you up.
>if you where to cure them of their GID later well now they have mutilated their genitals
That is a big ass "if" -- this is not like a pathogen that you take an antibiotic for. Rarely is a mental disorder of this magnitude cured --they are almost always managed throughout life.
>Also the current sex changes operations are cosmetic not actual sex change operations,
That apparently doesn't matter.
I think people tend to think i mean to say more than I do when I call it a mental illness. I don't mean to say that the best treatment of it isn't to get a sex change operation. I view it in the same light as the process of ungaying. Don't question the word ungaying. It's a thing now.
Also understand then, that it is in fact contrary to the interests of the trans person to have a society that holds them in a second-class of human being because they are in perpetuity "mentally ill" on par with autistics or schizophrenics.
The great social movement now is not just equal rights and treatment for LGBT people, but accepting that their existence, their "conditions" are just as natural, if more rare than, the "regular" cis straight human being. It helps everyone not to have to take the effort to stereotype someone's capability and intelligence based on something they cannot control, and which, in fact, DOES NOT control them in a physical capacity, but DOES limit them, insofar as how intolerant a person is and by extension, the society that trans / lgbt person is in
>Can we all take a moment to acknowledge that if you bother your brother or sister for his or her problems before you deal with your own you are mentally ill..
Mind your own fucking business.
>Also the current sex changes operations are cosmetic not actual sex change operations,
>That apparently doesn't matter.
Indeed, which would suggest what they desire is not to change their sex, it would suggest all of their problems are not a result of their wanting to be the other sex but wanting to be treated like the other sex, maybe.
The inconsistency between the treatment of illnesses like body integrity disorder and transsexualism (gender identity disorder) when we remove societal pressure to treat an illness a certain way, physiologists don't treat it that way.
The issue here is people lumping all mental illness together. I have depression but I get little to no acknowledgement that there is anything wrong with me. The most common reply is "oh yeah
everyone gets depressed now and again" kek.
Yes trans people should be accepted as equal to anyone else. but if they are to a degree mentally ill then it helps nothing to pretend they aren't. The real issue in that case would be society's view of mental illness (which I think is definitely a problem) but I think most prevalent issue is that people against it just think it's strange. They don't have any particular reason to say so other that that.
Before the 1980's teachers disciplined kids by beating them. That did "harm" and we don't do that now, but we still expect them to discipline our kids rather than let them do whatever the fuck the kids want.
The idea is we should keep trying to use therapy for these people, but we should learn to do better about it.
Tell them they can dress and act however they want, but to accept that they are a man/woman and to be happy with that.
How many post-op men for example act and look like a stereotypical man where nobody could tell he had no weiner anymore unless he dropped his pants?
five bucks says you'll be lucky if more than 10 on the planet are like that.
Trans people tend to want to fufill a "role" of sorts, rather than simply hating the sexual organ and NOTHING MORE.
If gender is a word for "social construct of sex" then that's the only problem that the "world" needs to deal with. The sex of person itself shouldn't be something that we should change.
Otherwise why aren't we helping those black kids who bath in bleach because they're so unhappy at the notion of being black, by medically altering their skin and then claim it's a "progressive treatment" that's better than the failures of therapy that came before?
>The idea is we should keep trying to use therapy for these people, but we should learn to do better about it.
I'm perfectly fine with searching for alternatives that may work better than the current treatment, but we shouldn't drop our current treatment simply because you don't like it.
>Be me and in love with a girl
>so much so I start stalking her
>she's not interested
>stalking becoming damaging to my life
>scientists build android of her
>exactly like her in every single way "mental" and outside physical. Only difference is she's programmed to love me.
>Rather than deal with the causes of my stalking problem, they sneak android into path and let me believe girl fell for me.
>Girl's happy I'm not around anymore
>I'm happy because I believe girl is with me now,
That's my problem with the push for sex changes at the drop of a hat. Rather that sorting out WHY they want to no longer be a man/woman, we just let them continue to live a lie.
Agreed but do we do nothing until it's figured out or do we do our best...which is of course a rhetorical question...to which the actual question is
>do you have a better idea than going ahead with the sex change until a better alternative exists?
It's not so much that "I don't like it" as it is I believe people should be happy with the bodies they were born with.
We're supposed to live in a more accepting society now, yet we're also pushing the idea that if you're happy with your body, rather than teach you to be happy with it, the doctors'll cansimply just get rid of/ass bits until you start smiling.
Not even a trans thing. Any stuff like that. Boob jobs even rub me the wrong way. Unless a specific body part is physically harming your body, then it physically should not be change. Giving a cure to a disease that a dude's already been cured of is silly.
The sex changes make people happy "for now" is a good idea. However, we all know that's not how it'll end up. It'll be considered the "cure" and society's push will be for that rather than finding ways to metally treat these people to be happy sucessfully.
because as humans, shouldn't we always strive for the truth?
For example let's say you're happy with your wife. she said when you were dating she couldn''t have kids and you were cool with that. But now after years of marriage, you learn that reason was because she used to be a man.
sure you were "happier" when you had the lie, but wouldn't you of wanted the truth fom the start?
Note: that wasn't nesscessarily meant to be an example featuring a tran, but it was just a quick example that came to my head.
>However, we all know that's not how it'll end up.
That's what denouncers say but overwhelmingly the transpeople say they are happy with the results of their surgery.
And what about people born with deformities that can be corrected with minor cosmetic surgery? In the end we can speculate on whether they should fix their minor cosmetic flaw or learn to live with it, but it's their choice to make.
>because as humans, shouldn't we always strive for the truth?
Why would we if we gain nothing from it but lose?
Why is it wrong to not want to be confronted with a painful truth?
No. I just want to know why people value truth so much, and would like them to explain.
No point in searching for something if you don't know why you are even looking for it in the first place.
(That and I hate having dirty smelly niggers shoved in my face when I'm eating a royal dinner just because these little shits have no food and want me to share. GET YOUR OWN FOOD LAZY PIGS)
One thing should be clear, is that whatever choice a person makes for themselves does not affect you no matter how much you want to think it does (transgender are mentally ill;this can lead to homicide, etc) it's their life and you have no right or authority to control their choices. You probably get mad that gay people exist, perhaps you should go live in Russia where people like you belong and get fucked by the strong arm of Putin
>Allowing some who is mentally ill to make a choice that harms them is wrong.
I don't believing it is wrong, and neither do they. Whom are you do decide what is right for someone else?
because if they where not suffering from a mental illness they would don't want it done to them. This is a very common opinion that has been around for a few decades not sure how you're unaware.
if it's a non-harmful deformity (note even a cleft lip is considered "harmful") then no they shouldn't change it. Yes it's that person's choice to make, but THEY SHOULDN'T WANT TO MAKE THAT CHOICE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
If other people mistreat that person because he/she looks odd, then it's THEIR problem not the odd-looking man/woman. It's not a progressive society if people have to require to surgically change who they are in order to feel inculded.
Of course post trans are happy with the results after an op. They got a physically change into something that more "fits" the role of what society associates with their actions.
Some guy earlier made a good point that you won't find a post-op trans who's a stereotypical man of whom you'd only know is a woman now is if he drops his pants.
Saying "yeah sure, have the op and be happy" is the same as saying "you're right there is someone physically wrong with you. Have the op and you can be happy when we then accept you"
People can wear & act how they want and we shouldn't judge them for it. But that doesn't mean we should start encouraging them to be something they're not.
>The name-calling ticks me off. It’s childish, immature, and usually a card played when the feminist on the other end of the debate can’t back up their argument but still wants to ‘win.’ But it doesn't really get to me. I have more important things to worry about than whether or not someone thinks I’m "privileged". There is, however, one name I’ve been called that really, truly offends me. It makes my skin crawl and leaves me so angry I can hardly articulate myself. Feminist
>Humanists and Feminists are hardly one in the same. Claiming, whether aggressively or ‘politely,’ that genitals don't dictate your gender is not even close to being on the same level as being pro-equality. Committing genocide is on the feminist agenda. The only people they want to kill are straight white males
>Feminists have never been responsible for mass murder. Yet. They advocate erasure of a certain type of person from humankind. It takes a special kind of asshole to warp the goals of humanism to somehow be related to Feminism. Humanists fight for equality. Feminists act on a belief that their victims are not equal to them. Their goal is to ‘better’ the human race by wiping out people that don’t fall into their idea of the perfect human beings. Come on. You actually cannot compare that to humanism’s goal of empowerment and equality for all, and when you try, you've gone full retard. Never go full retard.
>Feminists are here to destroy you. I can promise you that. They will not stop until there are no more straight white men.
>They're going to claim that they're just being "outspoken and assertive". They're not going to change. It’s who they are. They know that a lot of people don’t like it, but they're not concerned with being well-liked. They're concerned with "equal rights" for everyone who is not a straight cis-man, and killing men.
I'm a trans person. I can't speak for everyone, but I know for a fact I'm mentally ill. Of course I'm mentally ill. I've been in therapy since I was ten years old. Do you think trans people WANT to be fucking trans? Do you think we WANT to hate our bodies to the point that risky invasive surgery seems like a better option than being stuck in a disgusting, incorrect body? Why do you think the suicide rates for trans people are so high? Well, it's because of assholes like you, but it's also because we're mentally ill.
I'm pre-op, but I've been on hormones for a year and pass very well. If there existed a form of therapy that get rid of the repulsion I felt when I looked at my old body in the mirror, I'd have gotten it ten fucking years ago. I wouldn't have to stick myself with a giant needle every week, and I wouldn't have to incur thousands of dollars in debt to pay for the surgery that will keep me from cutting off my tits with a kitchen knife.
TL;DR trans people aren't doing anything to hurt you, you bigoted piece of shit. We're just trying to live normal lives and be happy. Go fuck yourself.
that computer you're using? because of a search for truth.
That education you've got? because of a search for truth.
That food from farmig you're eating? because of a search for truth.
Not searching for the the truth is being like a blind deaf baby, simply laying on the floor shtting yourself while something occasionally puts you on this thing that feeds you.
Dude, the search for truth is the very thing that lets us function. the more truth we have, the better we do (e.g. look at how much you're county's improved with the more technological advances being made).
As such we should always strive for it. as it eventually improves our species
There is large portion of the medical community that agree with their choice of treatment. And you suggesting that they're mentally ill too and you're the only one with superior knowledge?
mentally ill people should not try to live a normal live, you're not normal and trying to be normal is your biggest problem. Accept who you are and don't have someone mutilate your genitals.