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>>611198556 Because making it illegal commonly puts the state in the middle of a mother's grief.
I had a friend miscarry at 5 months, investigated by ND police. Fuckers tried to press a case on her because you assholes wrote your happy pro-baby law in such a way that all late-term miscarriages are suspect.
I hate abortion. But making it illegal doesn't save babies, it destroys mothers' lives.
ALL LIFE IS A GIFT FROM GOD. A DISABLED OR RAPE-CONCEIVED CHILD IS ONE OF THE GREATEST GIFTS GOD CAN GIVE. WHEN A WOMAN LEARNS SHE IS CARRYING A CHILD WITH DOWN SYNDROME, ANENCEPHALY OR THE RAPE-CONCEIVED IT IS ONE OF THE MOST JOYOUS THINGS A WOMAN CAN FEEL, BECAUSE SHE LEARNS THE PRECIOUSNESS OF LIFE.
If you don't beleive in abortion then don't get one. If you don't beleive in God don't follow Christianity. If you don't beleive in smoking then don't smoke. If you don't beleive in exotic pets then don't get an exotic pet Why do you faggots need to try and make everything illegal? Everyone is entitled to a choice. For every new stupid law you make you're destroying your own freedom.
>>611198556 Give me one argument that doesn't reduce to "because I said so". Also,you can't claim the word of your god unless you can prove existence. My guess is you're nothing more than an overbearing holier than thou faggot who should be removed from society..
First off. It all depends on when the baby is presumed human. Personally, I believe when pain is put into place. Abortion should be illegal after a certain amount of months in my opinion, but I don't matter. Now, rape and all that shit and woman and her own body. All good reasons to keep the law legal. It would be better if they just had a system to enroll the child into foster care or have the child be born without child birth. But this isn't a perfect world. Population isn't a problem yet. It'll only be a problem when all the smart people are dying out. This is no reason to keep abortion.
I really feel like the abortion debate is unresolvable. Femenists (the largest pro-choice demographic) like to frame it as a women's rights issue, and the religious pro-life side argue it as a moral issue, but it's not really either, or rather, it's both.
To me the abortion debate is a social issue that affects everyone. It's true that women should have the right to decide what they do with their bodies, but it's also true that doing so involves taking the life of another potential human being.
I think that if we want to get anywhere with this issue, we have to admit that it's not just a women's right issue, and it's not just a moral or religious issue.
>>611202213 Ah but then people put up the fight that this argument is Post-Hoc. It literally has to do with the same bounds as: I like coffee, my daughter doesn't. I drank coffee the night before i made my wife pregnant. Thus making my daughter that should exist, not. All because I drank coffee to change my sperm.
>>611198556 Because there is a direct correlation between abortions being legal and lower crime rates. A lot of people who get abortions or wish for one do so because they are not equipped to raise the child. When a child is born into a family that cannot provide or look after them as they should be often times they will become delinquents and eventually turn to crime or make the same mistakes their parents did and fuck up the next generation too. Kids should only be born when the parents are actually ready yo have them or both parents and children suffer
Fuck saying it's a womans body. I work TGI Fridays as a bartender and I have had multiple PREGNANT woman order alcohol from me. I can't refuse to serve them because it's considered discrimination and my ass would be out of a job. But I despise these fucking trashy ass woman who claim they can do whatever the fuck they want because it their body. No fuck you, their is another body growing in you and it's not fucking right that you fuck up their life because of your fucking choices.
I am pro death across the board, capitol punishment for murder is fine(you choose to take someones life who has contributed productively and could continue to do so yours should be forfeit), the right to commit suicide(you have the say as to when you wish to freely end your own life), abortion is fine too--only a selfish prick would bring another life into such a world without considering all the possible consequences so the option of death before seeing this world may not necessarily be as cruel as the 70 year life sentence to a wild roller coaster of happiness and misery.
>implying if we didn't find an embryo shaped thing on another planet we wouldn't be freaking out about finding life, doubly so when we found out that not only does it have DNA but it has 23 distinct chromosomes that all match up to ours
>>611202881 Alright, but I don't think that the baby gets much of a choice in the matter. I think right to life trumps right to avoid an inconvenience, except if its life I threatening or rape-concieved.
>>611205376 Do you go on welfare with your emancipation? Because the reality is emancipation is just divorcing the parents, and any public assistance you get on the parents are forced to pay for despite you not living under their roof.
>>611206730 Good on you then if you managed to keep your parents out of it, others at the short end of emancipation don't get off so lucky and aside from that emancipation does not rid parents of other responsibilities as well when an emancipated minor fucks up on their own, even an emancipated minor can cause all sorts of other legal troubles for their parents despite the legal separation
I would say 20 weeks should be the limit, unless there is a serious medical problem that can either effect the fetus or the mother. If you can't decide what to do in the 1st half of the pregnancy, then just put it up for adoption. Plenty of people want new born babies.
>>611207489 >http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/baby 5th definition Literally means figuratively too now. Just cos enough christfags call it a baby the dictionary says it is to avoid people being confused. In a scientific or legal sense its not a baby.
you dont need an abortion clinic to have an abortion. these people just protest clinics because they don't want to see it. It's a safe place where you're supposed to have a safe and sterile procedure But there are many, many ways to have an abortion that the law can't keep watch. A determined woman will abort the fetus. Unless they propose to strap a woman down for nine months like cattle, abortion clinics exist simply because they utilize safe abortion methods that don't harm the pregnant woman.
I wouldn't ever get an abortion- I'm infertile anyways- but I dont control another woman's uterus, and she deserves the right to safely abort an unwanted pregnancy.
I don't understand it anyways. Wah wah fucking welfare bitches learn to use a condom, stop pushing out kids, but don't you dare get an abortion. make up your fucking mind.
>>611207037 This is true about a baby that's a month old, stop oversimplifying. The baby would survive more than an hour, but you can't choose an arbitrary unit of time for how long something needs to be self-sufficient before it's no longer a parasite.
I mean, it isnt anyones right to tell others how to live their life. Bitches want abortion, let them have it. It isnt really that big of a deal, its just a distraction tactic man. Now about them tribal towel-heads wanting to blow up everything......
>>611205578 >You can't force someone to go through 9 months of anything. Actually, I have been forced to go through my entire life.
>Having sex isn't a crime, it doesn't deserve a 9 month sentence. Correct, having sex isn't a crime, which means that pregnancy is not a punishment.
>You think it's a human life? Then it should be able to live outside the womb like every other human being does. You think it's a human life? Then it should be able to live outside life support like every other human being does.
>Until it's born, it's a parasite. No one makes me keep my flu virus healthy until it can find another host. Can't make me keep a baby.. Everyone on this board is a parasite. You keep your flu virus healthy until it can find another host. The court system can very easily make you keep a baby for 18 years.
>>611208076 >Just cos enough christfags call it a baby the dictionary says it is to avoid people being confused. In a scientific or legal sense its not a baby. Those "christfags" have been using the word "baby" to refer to unborn children for longer than you tippers have been using the retarded euphemism "abortion".
>>611206063 In 10 years that fetus will be thankful his mother didn't abort him. I think most fetuses were they given the capability to think it over, would prefer not to die. Everything that is pure and untroubled would choose not to die.
>>611209726 But the analogy works. A woman has no choice in a miscarriage. It's natural, nothing we can do about it, it just is what it is, like an accident, it's bound to happen to someone somewhere. Abortion is a choice though, fully intentional, just like running someone over. I'm undecided about abortion, but that anon wins on that point.
>>611210334 I am sure if that was the case then my mother would have the baby. We are all works of God whether you like it or not, and we will not take away a human life. That child could be the next Nobel Prize winner! Next president even! Life is a precious thing and should not be taken away.
Because Americans have a fundamental right to privacy, which implies that infringement of that right would require strict scrutiny, in the form of a compelling state interest, and a ban that's narrowly tailored to acheiving that state interest (without being over or under inclusive).
So far, no anti-abortion initiative has been able to meet this high standard. Also, stare decisis.
Americans have a long-recognized fundamental right of bodily integrity, of family planning (especially within marriage) and privacy. Why should a women who gets knocked up have to devote 9 months to something she wants nothing to do with? It'd be the rough equivalent of the government mandating that they shoot you full of hormones for nine months, whether you like it or not.
>>611208076 I'm pretty sure the location of a person doesn't define what it is. If anything, the stage in the development process does. About a month before birth, an unborn baby looks the same as a newborn, albeit has a few small differences. Is an unborn baby not a human being? If no, what is it then? I'm pretty sure it has the same DNA, a heart, a brain, arms, legs, and a future.
>>611198556 There are two ways a fetus can help people in society. 1. It grows up to be a respectable individual who decides to help people with their life. 2. We harvest it's stem cells to help people.
If a woman doesn't want a child then why let it grow up as an orphan? Why force a woman to give birth to just be a bad parent or give the kid away? If a woman doesn't want a child, then they should be allowed to opt out. If a man doesn't want a child, he too should be allowed to opt out. Some people don't want to be parents, and most people would rather be dead than have shitty parents who mistreat them, so in the end it's really what the child would grow up wishing had happened.
So many recycled arguments in this thread. currently taking bioethics to fill a gen ed requirement, actually an interesting class. all of this will be shortened for brevity sake, so use crit. thinking skills, and maybe this will get some conversation going: >pro life babies are humans and humans have a right to life, so babies have a right to life, is a bad argument. The underlying logic is babies are genetically human but not persons, and humans have a right to life as a virtue of their personhood, not as a virtue of their genetic make up. Otherwise, people with chromosomal disorders (not just downs, but klinefelters and others) wouldnt have a right to life as well. >pro choice fetus are a parasite, not human, no right to life etc. problem with that argument is that babies are utterly dependent on their parents as well, so that logic which justifies infanticide, if youre alright with that, well thats an entirely different case. >pro choice - restricted Abortion is okay only as long as baby isnt viable outside the womb. From a philosophical standpoint, the location of a baby shouldnt determine its rights, that doesnt make sense, and what age is viable outside the womb varies across the globe, compare NY city hospital vs bumfuck africa. Im missing some stuff but, the main thing is to stop thinking of MY RIGHT whichever side youre on, think about what would be the morally decent thing to do, and also think about what exactly makes killing a person wrong, and if those reasons are applicable to a fetus
>>611198556 Because theirs too many fucking stupid kids that need to die. I dont even care if their fucking 8, if they like hunger games or if there honey boo boo, THEY NEED TO BE FUCKING KILLED LIKE THE RATS THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!
>>611211034 >Because Americans have a fundamental right to privacy
Overridden by right of the other party to live.
>infringement of that right would require strict scrutiny, in the form of a compelling state interest
State has a compelling interest in the survival of its citizens.
>Also, stare decisis.
Stare decisis applies to lower courts. If it were applied the way you want it, Dred Scott would also still be law.
>Why should a women who gets knocked up have to devote 9 months to something she wants nothing to do with? It'd be the rough equivalent of the government mandating that they shoot you full of hormones for nine months, whether you like it or not.
Characterizing the pregnancy as some passive thing that just happens is intellectually dishonest.
It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer what behaviors lead to pregnancy. Pregnancy results in the creation of a third party who has rights that override nebulous claims of privacy, bodily integrity (interesting use of terms given abortion involves barbaric destruction of the third party's bodily integrity), and "family planning."
>>611210633 Many but not most. A majority of people don't commit suicide and a majority of people are happy that they weren't aborted. A majority of the aborted fetuses, if given the chance to live wouldn't kill themselves. Also, if someone commits suicide, it means that they are either facing some kind of hardship or that they are mentally unstable. According to Evolution, not wanting to live isn't a genetic trait as anything that didn't want to live wouldn't exist anymore but things with a strong desire to live would have forced out the rest of the species without that trait. Fetuses haven't learned much so they are almost purely instinct so I think that every fetus were it given the capability would decide to live, even if later in life they didn't.
That is not how it works, OP. We don't have to justify why anything should be legal. Everything starts out legal. YOU have to justify why it shouldn't be legal.
I can't believe we're still having this bitter debate four decades after Roe v Wade. Why can't we come up with a compromise? Like rational adults? Make some laws. Negotiate. Lay down some rules for when it's acceptable/legal, and when it's not.
>>611211491 Then you are a dense fuck if you don't want to look up the miscarriage numbers. My first post in this thread is that 20-40% of fetuses are miscarriages. So how you tied in abortion is completely implying and that's why you are retarded. Driving the car is a conscious decision, not being big enough or have enough nutrients to support a fetus is not.
Here are some quick reasons why I believe US laws regarding abortion legality should remain in place or become more lenient:
• There will always be unwanted pregnancies and women will seek out ways to abort. Legalization has given access to safe procedures done by professionals. They're also provided the means to obtain advice on making the final decision. This wouldn't be the case otherwise. • An unwanted pregnancy is the kind of shit which ruins your life plans and crushes your dreams. The current laws allows for parenthood to be planned for the optimal time in a woman's life. • Unplanned children will have a lower quality of life than a planned one. Parents with unexpected pregnancies, particularly young parents, will likely put life plans on hold or be unable to pursue better career opportunities. • Bouncing off the previous point, a great deal of unplanned pregnancies are associated with teens and the poor. Allowing teens to avoid the burden that is raising a child (possibly alone) provides the opportunity for these parents to fully mature and stabilize their own lives before caring for another's. For those living in poverty, having an unexpected child is just another piece of shit on the pile that they don't need.
>>611212926 >Sperm become zygotes! Only when joined with the genetic information found in a human ova. You can expose a sperm to whatever radiation and chemicals you want, it can never become a human being.
>>611213429 Unless you expose it to the chemicals of the human ova. >expose a zygote to whatever you want (except the things that make it a human being) and itll never become a human being A sperm is just one step back
>>611211412 Sperm isn't a human. It is a eukaryotic haploid cell. A zygote isn't a human either. These things aren't even animals, they are members of completely different domain, the most inclusive group in taxonomy. Pretty sure there's nothing wrong with killing germs and things of the like, but when that zygote becomes a multicellular organisms with specialized cells and tissues and organs, it becomes a human being. A fetus isn't a eukaryotic cell like sperm. You would be foolish to insist otherwise as it seems you are doing. Also, if you want to draw the line at birth, you should have no problem with killing it a day before the due date? And what is birth? If you take it out of the womb to kill it, is it born? If birth is the line, you can kill a baby that is capable of mental function, can cry, can eat, can see, can breath, can eat, can drink and is completely the same as a newborn but a couple days younger and you can kill it. Birth doesn't change the baby in anyway, it's still the same!e thing when it leaves the womb. If you can give me one physical change of leaving the womb besides the cord you get a cookie.
Welp, SCOTUS has had plenty of opportunities to overturn Roe in the past 20 years, and time and time again, it has declined to do so. The Kennedy-Stevens-O'Conner opinion in Casey directly addresses your comments about stare decisis and Dred Scott. And... no... it doesn't only apply to lower courts.
On your second point, the Court has recognized that the state does in fact have a compelling interest in the fetus at a certain point of development, but since there is far from any consensus at which point life begins, it has decided this occurs roughly at the point of viability, or if the thing could live outside the womb. Have fun trying to convince anybody that your objectively arbitrary "life at conception" opinion should outweigh settled law.
Finally, in light of the above, your first point is invalid as well. The right of the other party to live does not, in fact, outweigh the privacy rights of the mother. If this were the case, we would have an absolute ban on female birth control... and probably also a ban on condoms and male forms of birth control via the Equal Protection Clause. Instead of this insanity, we've long accepted that bans on contraception involve unconstitutional state intrusions on privacy, family planning, marital decision making, etc.
>>611213671 No matter what you do, sperm will die. Don't have sex? Sperm dead. Have sex? Sperm dead except for one. It can't be unethical to kill sperm because we kill them whether we like it or not. Most sperm will never become zygotes.
>>611201117 You can be pro-choice and anti-abortion, it's the same thing as being anti-pot but pro-legalization. The money in the long term saved from not raising crack babies on the taxpayers' dime is insurmountable.
>>611214208 That's not a physical change you idiot. If I walk outside my house has a physical change happened to me? Have I gained any more mental capability? Have I become anymore human? Location of a baby doesn't matter, it's all about development.
>>611214270 But you arent killing the sperm on purpose you're desperately trying to save them Thats like saying its ok to kill cancer patients cos most die. Or fuck its like saying its ok to kill humans cos all humans die
To be clear im pointing out the fallacious logic of the pro lifers. This is not my opinion
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