Are there any companies or seamstresses who offer chemise a la reine dresses? I've searched for years and years but all I can find are people who are making their own and don't do commissions.
also historical fashion (+costume) general
What is the 'average' prices to be expected for undergarments and reproduction clothing and things? ex. chemise, stays etc. Because on all the sites I've seen them sold on, a chemise is like $200 and stays are $400-600.
>pic related 1868 evening dress to contriboot thread a bit
This is sort of historical-fashion related, a little lolita-related - There was a Japanese (maybe Korean?) brand that did semi-lolita, semi-natural-kei vibe that I LOVED called Moon Berry, but I can't find anything about them online anymore? Pic related is my favorite complete outfit by them. I really dig the prairie-Anne-of-Green-Gables vibe goin on. I know it's a long shot, but anyone know this brand or what happened to them? I adore this style and would love to find and wear it more often...
Yo I'm really digging that outfit a lot. Quick dumb question, but I was reminded while browsing their site. Does anyone know why old school frocks button up the back? Is it because zippers didn't exist back in the day? I've been wondering this since I was a kid watching Moomin. I always wanted to know why Snufkin's dress thing buttoned up the back lol
It's hard to find an 'average price' because so much depends on what you want, how accurate you want it, who is making it, and how they make it (totally custom? made with a commercial/big name company pattern? etc)
Moon afternoon. They're perfection. They're Japanese btw. I've loved them forever but have no idea how to order. That exact set in blue keeps getting relisted on y!j though for 25000 yen for some reason though nobody's buying. I've seen some of their tabliers second hand there too every so often. Stunning pintucks.
Depends on the era and social class, but it was actually more common for gowns to close at the front or sides in a lot of eras.
Almost all women's clothing in the 18th century for example, actually closed at the front. (With the exception of some of the more formal court gowns. And of course clothing which didn't necessarily 'close' like chemises.)
most of them /seem/ to have been made with commercial patterns, but i cant be sure. may i ask, then, how much it might cost to make such things with the patterns yourself? i can understand marking up for labor and such, but sometimes i think its all too high for what youre getting.
>most of them /seem/ to have been made with commercial patterns
Some are, some aren't. Some use commercial patterns but alter them. You might combine elements from multiple patterns, or buy a pattern as a base but make alterations on things like the corset back lacing, amount of material necessary for accurate panniers, etc. There are actually a number of history-friendly patterns available from historical costumers, free and otherwise...
In any case, just because someone's using a pattern doesn't mean the process of making the garment won't be labor intensive and time consuming. It just means that they didn't have to spend time drafting a custom pattern. Nor are all pattern-made gowns alike. The same pattern used by different people can result in dresses of vastly different styles and qualities.
But, anyway. For an example let's assume you're making a relatively basic robe francaise (for the sake of consistency let's go with one made with that popular Simplicity pattern, without any added flourishes or alterations like a stomacher) you'll need about:
-20 yards of fabric for the dress itself
-About the same amount but in liner fabric
-Misc elements (grommets, hook/eye closures, etc)
-Other fabric material for trimmings (lace, etc)
Let's say you decide to use a basic but nice brocade for the dress ($10/yard) and cheap linen for the lining ($4/yard). That's $280 for the base fabric.. plus let's say $40 or so for the other elements + simple trimmings. So $320 for materials alone.
And making a dress from that particular pattern can take anywhere from 30-60+ hours depending on your skill level, equipment, alterations, etc.
In retrospect, Vivcore's chemise dress wasn't absolutely horrid. It was just a shame that she photoshopped the picture to heck and back to make the dress look more opaque and there were quality issues.
for quality stays that are custom fit for you (this is what you want, because poorly fitting stays = poor dress drape and shape) expect to drop a few hundred bucks at LEAST...probably closer to $500 if you're getting them from one of the more well known people. chemises you can make yourself...they're simple as fuck.
gowns are a whole different ballpark. for something simple in a less expensive fabric, say maybe a regency dress, might be only a few hundred, but something like a bustle gown or a tudor ensemble is going to be more like $500-$1000 depending on fabrics, detail, embroidery, etc.
this is not a cheap hobby. best bet is to learn to make it yourself.
>this is not a cheap hobby. best bet is to learn to make it yourself.
Counterpoint: you're going to spend much, much more money and much, much more time getting good enough to make it yourself, and you won't have anything good to show for it for several years. Sewing and tailoring are not easy skills to get really good at, and historical clothing requires a high level of skill. This isn't like spending 4 weeks learning the basics and ending up with a wearable pair of pajamas. You have to want to learn to sew for its own sake and be willing to invest a lot in it. If you just want to wear historical clothing, it's cheaper and faster to pay someone who already has the skills and equipment.
As They Sew in France want to do lolita-style Victorian-inspired dresses. pic related features two dresses from their fashion show.
they were charging around $400 for premade dresses, and said custom wear would cost more.
>much more money and much, much more time getting good enough to make it yourself
fair point, however if you shop around, you can get good deals on some fabrics for historical garb. if you're a total noob to sewing, it's also going to take a while, but if you can sew basic garments it's not too much of a leap to making some simple historical pieces. maybe not stays right off the bat, but you could certainly make some simpler shaped things
those dreases might be Edwardian, but they still plan to make Victorian-inspired lolita dresses. since they are planning to make them, no pictures exist yet.
It's not what you spend on fabrics for a specific project once you're good, it's all of the money you invest in getting to that point. Literally speaking yes it's now "cheaper" for me to make a Victorian gown than it is to buy it, but I've spent thousands of dollars on equipment and learning and countless hours over many years getting to this point. I was pretty advanced in contemporary sewing when I moved to historical, and there was still a learning curve with antique construction techniques and fit, materials, etc. Even a Regency gown is challenging for an advanced beginner/intermediate sewer and it will generally come out a bit home ec-y looking, and stays and other gown eras are very advanced. "Simple" historical clothes are often limited to underclothes. I see a lot of historical gowns by people who were not really up to the skill and knowledge level required. Which is totally fine because that's how you get better, but if someone just want nice looking stuff… buy it. And if someone wants to learn, they need to have realistic expectations about how much work it will take to get to a skill level where the clothes look like actual, well made historical clothing.
in my experience, people just complain that historical pieces are "too expensive" (even though they're really not) when bought from etsy, etc. OP was sounding a bit incredulous that stays would cost hundreds.
seriously, if you're willing to learn and do the researhc, it's not that hard to move from contemporary sewing to historical. it's just a slightly different set of fabrics and patterns. i certainly didn't have much trouble....jumped right in and made a man's frock coat, then a robe francaise in silk taffeta with all the undergarments a year later. it's not rocket science, anon.
Mfw I secretly want to have a hand-maiden who can help me manage my stupid long hair and do up stupid buttons/zips and do my makeup for me yet also bitch and gossip with me.
>inb4 get friends
I tend to be the one doing all that shit for them and I dont like gossiping in front of them as they tend to take it the wrong way and start shit (dun wanna be a dramawhore)
Infanta makes this in a few colors, unfortunately the white and ivory ones are sold out.
I didn't even think to search for them on y!j or mbok! I have no idea how to order from them, either... I just adore this set in particular...
Ah, yes, I've looked at Akane & Alois on taobao before, but years ago, thanks for the reminder!
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who knows of / likes that brand, Moon Berry/Afternoon/whatever they are called.
I guess it's because they're based more on victorian upper-class children's fashion, and they'd have someone else to do up the buttons.
If you want to make it yourself, you have to remember that you need to make layers. To use >>8663038 's example, you'd need to make the robe itself plus the corset, petticoats, chemise, and drawers. You can leave the latter out but you need a corset to pin the outer clothes to, you need a chemise to wear under the corset to stop it chafing and getting dirty, and you need petticoats to smooth out the outline of the panniers and also for modesty. You're probably going to want to commission at least the corset. Muslins and the rather vast amounts of paper also factor into the costs. If you go for a very cheap fabric it'll look like shit and still cost you a lot. You could get fabric off ebay/ali/taobao, which would greatly reduce the cost (depending on shipping) but you wouldn't know the quality until it got to you, so that's a gamble. If you use the above services for trims and miscellaneous items, you can reduce costs, but it'll go from eg £250 to £190. It's still a lot of money.
Then there's the time. If you sew a lot you'd be surprised at how slow the whole process is, and if you don't sew much, you'll get stuck. A lot of it has to be done by hand (the gathers on the neckline and cuffs of the chemise, for example, have to be tiny and even so they lie flat- if you make them too big they'll be bulky and look awkward under the outfit) and a lot of it involves techniques that aren't really in use nowadays, like the above pleating.
You have to do a lot of measuring and maths to draft the pattern, make a lot of muslins, and spend a lot of time sewing channels and trims by hand. It's doable, but you'll probably wish you hadn't tried doing it.
You're not alone, anon. I want a handmaiden too. Especially since I'm terrible at doing anything interesting with my hair and I have so much of it as well. Not that I want to be either of these terrible people, but my god to have this kind of routine in the morning:
>would also just settle for having a really good girly friend or two
does anyone know what the hat Christopher Columbus wears is called? Is this a specific style of hat?
Mode Historique, who got permission to closely examine one of the handful of existing chemise a la reines, is making a pattern from that dress... however it sounds like the pattern is only going to people who donated a certain amount to her kickstarter due to copyright issues from the museum. Apparently she would have to pay a lot in order to sell it commercially? Shame. If she did a kickstarter for that, people would probably contribute, considering this style is one of the most popular among people who make 18th century dresses.
another existing chemise dress, from 1787
here is one based on that pattern! not sure how closely they stuck to it though
Even in the US where copyright laws are pretty draconian that doesn't make any sense. Copyright is only in effect for the life of the artist + 70 years and copyrighting clothing designs is extremely difficult to argue in the first place.
Sounds like bullshit to me.
It would be a contract and licensing issue, not copyright (though museums are able to control copyright on artworks in some situations; it gets complicated). Patterns and clothing designs are never subject to copyright. (Instructions and images are, pattern piece shapes themselves are not). The issue here would be that the museum controls access to the original dress, and can put whatever terms it wants on access to and images of the dress. They are fully within their rights to allow her to access the dress for specific purposes at a specific price, and charge more if she wants access it to produce a commercial pattern.
You're right, I checked their Facebook and it's an issue of "publishing rights." When she gained access to the dress she had specific parameters, which included the specific # of people who would obtain a copy of the pattern she was making, so if she wanted to do more she would need to go back and get their further permission.
I can't imagine that the museum would allow her to sell the pattern for free. She also mentioned on Facebook that she is, for right now, going to publish a pattern diagram with sketches and notes on construction academically and not commercially.
The museum is in the UK. UK + Europe have weirder copyright laws. For example, in France you must always include the artist's name and complete date, if known, with any public domain image directly taken from a museum's digitized collection. If you don't that is considered improper use.
Although as >>8671168 said and Mode Historique clarified, it's about publishing rights not copyright.
I think the chemise a la reine Norah Waugh patterned for The Cut of Women's Clothes and the Platt Hall dress Mode Historique is studying are the same dress. Some day I'll get around to trying it.
Also Laughing Moon has come out with a pattern for one. I have absolutely no idea if it's any good or anything, I've just been seeing it around lately. I don't know anybody who has made it, though.
>I think the chemise a la reine Norah Waugh patterned for The Cut of Women's Clothes and the Platt Hall dress Mode Historique is studying are the same dress. Some day I'll get around to trying it.
I looked up her notes and it does list that particular chemise in the 'cutting diagram notes,' so that seems likely.
Thanks for the heads up about Laughing Moon! I hadn't heard of them before actually. Here is the image for their pattern.
I haven't tried that pattern, but I bought three of Laughing Moon's Regency era patterns recently and am pretty impressed with them. They come with a 30+ page book of instructions and historical references, and the one pattern I've tested out (the women's gown) went together perfectly with no patterning errors. I'd change a few things for personal preference on the Regency dress, but the pattern is a copy of an extant garment and definitely historically accurate. The presentation and quality is better than other non-costumey/historically accurate patterns I've tried out.
Speaking of the cut of women's clothes, does anyone know of a fee pdf version of the text? Or even just scanned images online? I was able to loacte multiple different versions of "The Cut of Men's clothes" with varying degrees of image quality but nothing on the woman's version.
OK, one of you guys has to take pity on the rest of us and tell us what is going on. I'm now imagining all kinds of impossible things, mostly involving Ricky Gervais.
Also, Reconstructing History has a chemise a la reine pattern out too.
A few years back, (now defunct I think) designer Vivcore made this lolita chemise dress >>8663840
When another designer came out with one, she cried copyright infringement and that she had spent "years and years" researching her dress, even though it's just a historical dress cut short to lolita length (and if I recall she maybe also confused chemise a la reine with another style?) so it's silly to claim that nobody else could possibly come up with the same thing. There was also some drama when a customer gave her a bad review because there were quality issues and evidence that the stock photos were shooped as >>8663844 mentions
I've read a few reviews on this pattern and unfortunately none were super positive.
-Pattern instructions are not always accurate (pattern list calls for 60 inch wide fabric--but the actual pattern piece requires 72 inches)
-No instructions on how to finish the upper back edge of the gown; one costumer had to email the company and they gave them instructions, but that shouldn't be necessary
-Pattern instructs you to sew the gathering casings almost right off the bat, but the problem with this is that you end up with poor placement for your waist & underbust... the 'inner' casings should be placed only after you try on the dress.
-No illustrations. $30 pattern... no illustrations.
Oh, very good to know! Thanks anon.
Also, apropos of nothing, I am irritated at this Captcha because it asked me to "select all the doughnuts" and there was only one doughnut picture, but it said I had not picked them all. Finally I also clicked a picture of a bagel, and it let me through. Freaking Captcha, a bagel is not a doughnut!
>No illustrations. $30 pattern... no illustrations
i hate to break it to you anon, but very few historical patterns have illustrations in the instructions. i think i might have 1 or 2 that have small illustrations for confusing parts, but overall you're not going to get bi3 pattern company level of illustratinons.
All of the historical patterns I've bought from Laughing Moon, Truly Victorian, Folkwear, and a couple other publishers have had diagrammed instructions. Reconstructing History is charging $10-$12 over the average price. Including illustrated instructions is not exactly unrealistic given what you get for $18-$20 from other publishers.
Here is a tutorial for a very simple but easy chemise dress
This was certainly true in the past or for companies who haven't joined 2015, but not today. Laughing Moon as someone mentioned has very clear illustrations with their instructions.
Is there an equivalent term similar to 'lifestyle lolita' to people who make/wear historical costumes and incorporate history into their lives?
I'm not talking about historical re-enactors or people (like that 'This Victorian Life' lady with the snarky attitude) who try to 'live historically' in a strict sense, but people who might do things like decorate their rooms or houses with historical elements or touches, try out historical crafts or hobbies (like knotting, old school embroidery, tatting, etc) make or buy historical clothing to wear when they can, or at least add historical elements to their style if they aren't going full-blown costume, etc etc.
I know that Vivcore tried to make the term 'quaintrelle' happen but it never quite happened. But that's probably the closest to what I'm thinking of... not really historical re-enactment, but not just liking historical clothes either.
Vintage inspired lifestyle? Retro life? I definitely know what you mean and there's a number of vintage fashion enthusiasts who have their fashion hobby spill over into their lifestyle, but I'm not sure there's a specific term for them