>>64378391 That's fucking awful. Out in the Alberta oil sands, starting wage is close to 500 A DAY. You get paid a shitload for jobs like that, because it's dangerous as fuck, and the work environment is monumentally shitty
>>64378576 the base salary is low, but they get tons of bonus to work in dangerous place, usually in missions for month out of their home and stuff. Not everybody is willing to work like that so they have to motivate with a good pay or else they get nobody at all to do the job. Meanwhile titmouse employees get fucked in the ass because art schools put thousands like him in the job market every year.
>>64378576 No it's true, I have a friend who gets paid 20 bucks an hour to sit in his truck all day and make sure that pipes don't leak. It's not 500 bucks a day but oil field workers get paid pretty well. The only problem is it leads to stupid boom towns where a shitty shack is 100k.
Oil rich places are a special kind of world. So much fucking money just flying around that even the giant companies don't know what to do with it all. Just about every single job related to it pay ludicrously well. I'm no even involved in the oil part of Alberta, but we still see the byproduct benefits where I work, like 50$ more a day, and shit cheap alcohol. Also disgusting rig pigs everyone. Seriously, the only thing stopping most people from working on the rigs is that 99% of your co-workers are muscle bound coke heads who belong in prison, but ended up on a rig instead. Hope you don't show a moment of weakness, or they'll kick the shit out of you.
France is the only place to potentially hire them and they already produce way better animators to do the job to begin with. Also they'd still have to adapt with French way of work which is usually way different than the USA's.
>>64378576 Well, they have to pay you to live, and move to, bum fuck nowhere. The Dakotas are experiencing a population boom because of the new oil out there, but there are simply not enough people to keep the wages low. Restaurants and retail stores have to pay their employees like $18 an hour in order for them not to simply leave ad go work in the really fast expanding oil drilling process.
Why doesn't everybody quickly move out there for the jobs then? Because its fucking miserable cold work in the middle of nowhere. Not many people want to do it.
>bitching about making a perfectly livable wage >implying breaking down your body in sweltering heat isn't more deserving of compensation than sitting in air conditioning and dicking around on the computer. >implying wasting money on an art degree makes you entitled to a high paying job.
>>64378966 >thinking it's an either/or situation >thinking that's a livable wage for a skilled trade Hello 1%er apologist, I know you want a world where it''s just the richest people and the working poor with nothing in-between.
>>64379049 >you couldn't survive on that in most of europe I disagree, I live in Paris on my own, I need 500 euros per month for my flat, then another 500 for the life expense and food. I'm not rich but I'm not begging in the street either (actually beggars in Paris do more money than me, since they don't pay taxes on that shit)
>>64378640 >A guy doing manual labor on an oil rig gets paid more than some slob in an air conditioned office drawing funneh boox? No fuckin shit. And celebrities/music artists get paid more than both combine for just shucking and jiving. And they go home to their mansions and no one cares.
>>64379155 >Isn't college tuition in France free depends of what you do, but even the private schools are cheaper than the american ones, and you can get some help money for good grades and coming from a small poor familly usually. Taht said the problem there imo is that people should just make "enough to live", work is supposed to be "the more efforts the better pay" and it's not true for many jobs these days. An animator can be pissed that hist 7/7 10/24 efforts pay less than his superior's 4/7 7/24 job.
>>64379192 If everyone does that, it leads to no animators at all and an overabundance of people in higher-paying professions e.g. right now there is an overabundance of people with law degrees who are pretty much fucked financially.
>>64379192 This doesn't work those are long studies, by the time you chose it and the time you need to get a job the situation might evolve a lot. I know, I got screwed by doing just that and going for computer engineer. Now the job that used to pay well is outsourced in India.
>>64379192 Are you suggesting people shouldn't get into animation because the wages are bad? How does it make any sense that the solution isn't to just ask for better wages and worker rights instead of outsourcing to people living on pennies?
>>64379407 >comparing a presumably middle class 4chan user to a multi million dollar corporation >implying outsourcing to lower quality workers for pennies is automatically better than paying more for quality work
>>64379407 outsourcing is a really bad practice for your local economy, you spend wealth abroad that will not come back in your local economy in any way. It's not good on the long run. Just hink about it, look at how rich is China at the moment, it's only because foreign country pour their money there instead of in their own economy. They are bleeding themself out for something that profits so few people in their country it's ridiculous.
>>64379608 >people should just accept things the way they are and not challenge unfair or immoral business practices >it's better to mindlessly funnel money into other countries for little to no returns
>>64379996 Saddling them with a shitload of debt by forcing them through a broken educational system that more resembles a Ponzi scheme than an actual method of giving people job skills is a great way to do it too.
>>64379996 That used to be the case. Now we just make it so the education they get saddles them with more debt than they'll ever get rid of, and make sure that the education is required not to have a good chance of a livable wage, but any.
>>64378333 >And yet we still treat our staff better than Japan does.
We do not.
The average budget of a Japanese production may be significantly lower, but the per-person pay is better than US because that budget is spread out more evenly. In other words, in Japan the guy on the top isn't paid obscenely more than the guy at the bottom, but that is the case in the US. The numbers become even worse when you include all staff involved in the project, including the overseas studios to which Americans outsource. You can't boast that we have fair pay, when the guys actually doing the animation make less than US minimum wage.
Taking a grander view, US CEOs across all industries make 300~500 times what the average worker makes, while the typical Japanese CEO makes 50~60 times the average salary.
If working in America is so shit why don't you just move to another country. I left America for Japan a long time ago and now I live a nice life with plenty of spare money for soaplands. Living the dream.
>>64380089 You also have universal healthcare and free higher education. We get fucked in other ways. Just because our bloated, greedy nation gets a volume discount on oil doesn't mean individuals have it easy here.
>>64379937 >Yes! Being uneducated is the smart choice in life!
OK faggot, my friends who went to college are all working shit jobs and up to their eyeballs in debt I started working right after highschool and have 0 debt a house and plenty of toys and make considerably more than any of my friends who went to college so yeah go get your degree in women's study then bitch about how unfair the world is when you can't move out of your parents house.
>>64378798 That is only 19,200 dollars a year. Keep in mind these people have student laons, car payments, house payments/rent, food expenses. ect ect. Yes this sounds like a lot of money when you are living with your parents making minimum wage. But in the real world you need to be making 30K a year to be considered middle class.
>>64378768 Except one is a highly specialized field where you have to have talent to work in IE Animation. While the other is unskilled labor. Yes There is hazard pay involved but any able bodied person can be a laborer while not everybody can pick up a pen and start animating on a professional level.
>>64380558 And oil rig workers still deserve to be paid more because they provide a vital service to every industry in the world while putting their own health at great personal risk while enduring all the mental stresses of working such a job as well.
It's really retarded that our country's economy is mostly service jobs and moving money around.
>>64379937 University education meant something 20-30 years ago. There were fewer people attending, even fewer graduating, and having a degree meant you were above the average person.
People who grew up with this being the case understandably assumed this was due to the education and not the rarity of degrees, and fed their kids the narrative that "if you don't go to college you'll wind up flipping burgers," simultaneously overvaluing education and undervaluing work experience.
These days having a degree means jack and shit because the market is flooded with them. Worse, due to well-meaning initiatives to help people afford college, tuition and book prices have skyrocketed.
The end result is a generation of kids with a worthless education and thousands in debt entering a job market with no room for them. This is made even worse by the recession, which robbed boomers of their retirement funds and put them back into the workforce.
>>64380536 If that's your goal in life, you'd work your ass off to get a position to support that lifestyle. Fuckloads of time in college and everything. I on the other hand never want kids and frankly dont care if I ever get married. So enough to live in a place of my own is good enough for me.
>>64380674 If you can, get a cheap house or condo on homepath and start building equit. That will allow you to refinance or take out a HELOC for a significant sum to make real investments and earn real money.
Living on a wage/salary alone isn't a good idea. Building personal wealth is.
>>64380709 I understand that feeling. Anytime someone brings up the job market it freaks me out. This is in part why I'm getting a degree in accounting. The work sucks but it will hopefully pay well enough.
People have always recommended I get a job related to a hobby I enjoy, but that just seems like career suicide.
>make 2k a month >have a decent apartment >bought a brand new car (Genesis) in April >manage to go on nice trips when I want >weekly expenses are never a problem How is this a problem? Are you people unable to handle money?
You can Corn Shuck 100 of those Oil rig workers for every one Sound engineer.
Hell, look at a fucking Oil rig for example, the Engineers and technicians get far more pay than the fucking retard muscle. At one point I was helping build and design autoparts, I could have bought a fuck working as a mechanic with the wage I got.
>>64380709 >>64380777 I'm in the same boat. I love drawing and want to teach drawing, but I'm also really good at crunching numbers which people say will get me money. And if that money gives me enough time and funding to draw off hours then I think I'm good.
>>64380945 The money you are saving is insignificant and you aren't building any kind of safety net like the kind equity would provide. One bad accident and you'll be unable to make your wage and the associated health bills will devour your savings.
If you have enough in savings for a down payment on a condo (~20k with the right loan type) start looking.
>>64380777 >>64380852 We're in it for the long haul, anons. I don't even want to work for one of the big firms. Hell, I'll still be the first in my family to have a white-collar job. I'm planning to save up money and move back to my hometown down the line, where the cost of living is ridiculously low.
>>64381008 Yeah I'm too poor for that. If a big enough accident happens, then sure, I'd have trouble covering my expenses. Thankfully my family watches out for me. I've never had to ask them for money, though.
>>64379937 Going to college for the sake of being educated is one of the worst decisions a young person can make. I didn't want to do it but my parents did and everyone around me was doing it and so because I was/am a spineless faggot and didn't listen to my gut I'm stuck in Uni getting a shit degree that will saddle me with debt that I can hardly pay off. I have some luck because I go to a relatively cheap state school and haven't taken out as much in loans as some of my peers who go to more expensive schools but it still sucks.
If you finish high school and you're not entirely sure of what you want to do with yourself I don't think college is a good way to find out. For some people it does work out but I think more often than not its not worth it.
The internet is the place to be really. We live in a time where the internet is accessible to most people and marketing is right at your fingertips. Build a website, have a portfolio, show off what you can do, self advertise and gain a following. Build a name for yourself so companies can find you or make a living off selling merch if you create content. Once you've established yourself as someone people are going to start wanting YOU not just for your work but even you name.
I graduated college and am thinking of going to cons to sell work. Made 500 dollars from a 3 day con practically sitting at a table dicking around with friends for 12 hours, but it was fun as fuck. Trip cost about 300 dollars so I turned a profit. I know someone who makes thousands at just for going to cons.
>>64380602 This. I see so many people going to college essentially because everyone else is. They find the degree that is superficially interesting to them while simultaneously not being difficult and they go for it. The problem is virtually every high school student with an IQ over 95 does the same thing and the market is flooded and they eventually end up getting a job that isn't even related to their degree, something they could've probably done before except now they have a shit load of debt. STEM degrees can shave the fat because of their difficulty but the humanities and social sciences don't so typically those are the least employable degrees.
>>64381905 >Didn't go to college. >Worked landscaping for a few years. >Lived with parents, didn't party, didn't booze, didn't car. >Paid for college as I went. >Graduated with technical degree and a big network of friends. >Got a 40k per year job one year after college. >No debt, no nothing.
People who take out student loans are fucking stupid.
>>64379022 Unfortunately he's going to get his way. Modern technology is already becoming able to perform far more than the menial tasks it was once used for. Within the century I believe we will see machines which are able to perform 90% of the jobs humans currently perform, including self-maintenance and, coincidentally, cartoon animation.
This should be a moment to celebrate. Our species should finally be free of the burden of perpetual work. However, the so-called 1% will be the ones who own the machines and the factories, and I will be extremely surprised if they're willing to share what they produce.
I only hope the public realise this before the military becomes largely automated, because otherwise we're fucked.
>>64382166 >whether it directly benefits us or not? You mean directly benefits the guys at the top Seriously half this thread is arguing over whether a company should get millions or multi millions in profit.
>>64380124 This. American executives have managed to fool us into thinking our work is valueless and profits are low. Wages have stagnated for years and years while the price of everything else goes up with inflation. You know what that means? In real value, labor is getting cheaper and cheaper. We're paid way less for the same work while CEOs pocket the money. Does a few extra million do some asshole any extra good? No. Does it make living harder for the rest of us? Yes. Is it damaging to equality and human rights everywhere when we export this model of work and pay to other countries? You can bet it is.
>>64382075 Personally I think that's the way to do it unless you're an excellent student in high school who is relatively certain of what he/she wants to do. Even if you end up changing majors if you're good enough to get the grades and connections it could work out well
>>64382228 That would require EXECUTIVES AND LAWMAKERS being compassionate and benevolent. Seriously, why aren't you guys on the street over this? Big businesses are gearing to fuck us in the ass harder and harder.
>>64382089 uh... plenty of this technology already exists, anon. A lot of the work being done by workers in China could be done by machines. It isn't because sometimes paying a human a shit wage is cheaper, and other times China actually pursues policies that employ people because they are actually sort of interested in creating a Chinese middle class.
>>64382228 Actually no, that would require people not being so stupid that they can be suckered with the every popular "you're better then they are so just sit back and watch as we fuck them and do you the honor of giving you lube for when we start fucking you"
>>64382546 >living within one's mean Seriously why would this help anybody? Do you think that people are poor because they are bad with money? How would ANYBODY have any social mobility if they had to pay for college and other stuff out of pocket? Some credit allows people to live decently.
>>64382620 I spent two more years in college than most people. So what?
I paid one class at a time, not that I went one class at a time. Averaged two or three courses per semester, hence the need to live at home, carpool, work landscaping, not eating out, that kind of stuff.
Yes it sucked. But being in the same situation with $80k of money that isn't yours riding on your back sucks even more.
>>64382546 >If healthy living and living within one's means was pushed more then more then people would be far better off. This is a really good point. When people start to make more money what to they tend to do? Buy buy better stuff like a better house or a better car instead of saving up to be able to retire younger or just to have a rainy day fund.
An American making twice as much as his peer is likely to live in a house that's twice as expensive instead of living in a similarly priced home and paying it off in twice the time.
>>64382676 >Do you think that people are poor because they are bad with money? Not that anon, but I can collaborate and say yes. From personal experience, and statistics, this is an empirical fact now. Not the entire picture, but it is part of it.
This is why poor people who win the lottery end up where they started. They blow the money off, and return back to poorsville.
>>64382723 >Buy buy better stuff like an education, decent living conditions, healthy food and clean clothes, things that enable them to live reasonable lives. Then they can find better work because they're taking care of themselves and their family and they pay back the money. Debt is not particularly harmful unless you have way too much of it.
>>64382752 Crap. I'm going to be $40k in debt for just a bachelors. Granted about $10k of that is from debt from a previous ultra-expensive school I went to before I fucked up and realized how bad of an idea that was.
>>64382790 Yeah, as much as poor wages fuck people over let's not pretend a lot of the poorest people could manage wealth if they ever got some. To be fair, this is criticizing people for being poor with something they have very little of. But a part of this might just be the way we promote how everyone with money needs to live in a mansion with a Jacuzzi in every room.
>>64382790 It's a very small part of it, and honestly the cause and effect is usually the other way around. People who have lived their entire lives being poor are obviously not going to be equipped to handle actually having money.
People use all sorts of horribly irresponsible methods to pay back their debt. I know people who shuffle debt between credit cards, paying off one with money from another and justifying it by saying the interest isn't that bad.
Credit is a privilege and too many people go nuts with it.
I'm poor enough and did well enough on the ACT to have my college paid for me. I have no fucking clue what I should study and expect to end up stuck working stock at a grocery store once I finish getting all my general studies credits.
>>64382872 Also the whole system is set up to fuck over people who don't have money. If you don't have money, most of the options you have to manage your life will only put you in further debt, but are inescapable due to the short-term relief.
>>64382845 I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that workers do need to be paid something beyond the piss-poor wages we offer right now, but at the same time we as a culture should value the ability to manage money as well. Basically to avoid the problem that one person brought up about people who win the lottery and spend beyond their means.
>>64382873 A few people do that. Not enough to say to everybody who would never in a million years be able to pay for safe healthy living conditions and the means to move up to better jobs, "fuck you!"
>>64382849 Let's crucify the rich for their shitty stupid excessive spending habits before we crucify the poor for buying a working refrigerator on credit.
>>64382930 Well, I can't disagree with you there. It's an important thing, but not a super important thing or something that would solve a crucial problem.
But since we love bringing up the lottery over and over, you know it isn't meant to create millionares right? Part of the reason states do it is because it stimulates the local economy. Even if that asshole has blown all the money, a bunch of people got paid because of it. That wealth didn't stay in one place, and it wouldn't be useful if it did.
>>64382959 Payday loans are a very profitable business, and it's not just idiots who use them. Almost any cheap version of a product is guaranteed to be less durable and less healthy, regardless of whether it actually cost more to manufacture.
>>64382761 Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with those who think wages should increase. Regardless of what people do with their money they should be paid for their work with fair wages.
>>64382826 Yeah I'm not saying people should avoid debt and credit like the plague or anything, just that I think people should be a little less materialistic and have a little more foresight with their finances. There's nothing wrong with upgrading or getting spending your money on luxury items if you can afford it, I just think some people prioritize the right things. I myself aspire to live in a house with a fairly large yard, something like 2-5 acres, so I'm not above wanting nice things but I think at the same time I should be realistic and prioritize financial security over luxury.
>>64382849 >But a part of this might just be the way we promote how everyone with money needs to live in a mansion with a Jacuzzi in every room.
That pretentiousness seem to affect a very envious sector of the middle class, rather than the lower classes. Lower classes fail at something called life management, reason why illegal aliens are more likely to get out of poverty by the 2nd or 3rd generation, while poor people born in the same country stay poor.
Life management was one of the virtues of socialism, helping people who flat out did not know how live freely, by taking some of the burden from their hands, the problem was that some of those programs failed because it only taught poor people to be lazy, and even more irresponsible. It seems the way to foment progress is by poking the poor every once in a while.
>>64382873 ... Princess If people unilaterally stopped using credit to buy useless bullshit, then the economy would grind to a screeching halt. And nearly every major business you can name will go under.
Like it or not, not only our economy but our fucking country itself is built upon debt slavery.
>>64380709 >>64380975 Seriously. Same boat as all y'all Anons. ...but the worst part is, I don't think I have the math skills to pull of a banking or accounting job. I'm not really "numbers-smart", so I don't even know what other alternative I have. I've only putted around my junior college, rather than flooding myself with debt, but it's getting close to me transferring to a big-league college and now I'm having doubts if I should keep art as a hobby or not. On top of all that, I still don't think I've developed enough skill to have a career in art, anyhow.
>>64383086 I like that kind of minimalist philosophy too, but honestly I don't think it's good policy. Buying things pays other people money. You have a nice thing and someone else has an income. It's not bad.
>>64383175 And here I am looking at the video game industry. At least scripting can translate into other fields if the need arises, animation is... Whoof. I wish you the best, anon. I really mean that too.
It's true fucking bullshit that the idea of jobs that are "fun" (You get to draw cartoons all day! You get to play video games all day! You get to write stories all day!) are the same jobs that get people fucked over completely.
>>64378763 Pretty much this. I worked in Wiliston, ND for 18 months making around 2200 bucks a week just sitting around in a truck. McDonalds was starting employees at about 18 an hour, gas stations were starting register jockeys at 15. Sign on bonuses everywhere. Shit was crazy.
>>64383131 >So I guess I'm super fucked, either way... Pretty much. I tried a STEM degree but couldn't handle the math. I switched to a social science, Psychology, and I'm breezing through it but man how the fuck am I supposed to get a job with such a degree? To make matters worse my GPA is shit because of all those STEM related classes I failed or did poorly in so it'll be hard to get into a Grad program.
I guess you have to cross your fingers and hope for the best.
>>64383304 Maybe because there are a shitload of people who also want those jobs because they sound fun to the uniniated, and there's an enormous disparity between jobs available and potential employees available?
>>64383106 You know that, if everyone had "life management" then unions would be bullet proof, multiple generations of families would stay under the same roof, new items would go unbought, credit unions would mostly close down and 99% of all useless superfluous garbage like junk food and the vast majority of electronics would sit on the shelves.
Hell, the housing market, most banks, and car lots would go bust without the forced social programming of moving out on your own buying(leasing) your own house and buying(leasing) a new car off of the lot.
Truth of the matter is that all of that the vast majority of the "rich" and well off people that others envy for their toys and expensive life styla are quite honestly poorer then the working poor who own their own home and a (or a few)crappy but well maintained cars. They're "ghetto rich" and are one paycheck away from being destitute.
THEY are the people that are held up as a measure of success in society and that very idea is what keeps ignorant people poor and living as slaves.
>>64383304 >Just find out what you love doing and figure out how to make money off it! :) Biggest lie ever told. People can be happy in different careers. People can be passionate about different subjects. You'll fuck yourself over feeling miserable doing something besides your fantasy job. All work is valuable and important, and you should do your best at it and demand decent pay for it instead of always having this pipedream of leaving it.
>>64383304 >animation is... Whoof It's the truth, and it's fucking infuriating. I just don't see as much respect for the painstaking jobs as there is for the "tell other people to do shitty work while we funnel you money" jobs.
>>64383217 I just don't think people should buy things at the expensive of their own financial security. I know we live in a consumer economy but would having people live by that rule really hurt the economy that badly? Serious question, I know jack shit about economics.
I have a few friends who work at Titmouse, and it seems pretty varied. Two of them are doing pretty well for themselves (I've even heard them say stuff like how they don't need to pay attention to how much things cost anymore, because they're not in such financial dire straits as they used to be straight out of college). Then again, another friend of mine at Titmouse basically got laid off in the middle of working on a show because they ran out of budget to keep paying people. She's since been rehired by Titmouse, and this is apparently a common thing there.
>>64383427 >I just don't think people should buy things at the expensive of their own financial security. That's great except that's not always a fucking option, and it's also not an excuse to not pay people enough to live on. "You don't deserve more money because you'd mishandle it anyway" is the worst justification for keeping the poor poor I've ever heard.
>>64383427 well yeah nobody should fuck themselves over on purpose, but the main reason americans fear deficits and debt is because of a study published from forever ago that had a spreadsheet error. Debt is not the source of our problems. Shitty pay is the source of our problems. We don't value workers, we are a hierarchical society full of people who shit on each other based on status and that keeps anyone from demanding decent conditions. Austerity problems just distract from the real issue of how much money we AREN'T putting into the economy via wages.
>>64382483 Personally? Because I'm feeling suicidal over an unrelated issue which I can't get help for because the rest of society would just love to lynch me. A part of me wants to see you fuckers suffer in a dystopian future, and the other part is too depressed to care.
>>64383476 Apple is the perfect example of a complete jackass fucking everyone over, including himself. Workers? Fuck you. Repair shops? Fuck you. Customers? Daughter? Fuck you. Doctors? Fuck you, I think I'd rather die of cancer, literally.
>>64383485 >"You don't deserve more money because you'd mishandle it anyway" is the worst justification for keeping the poor poor I've ever heard. I agree and I wasn't saying that. You shouldn't deny an employee a pay raise if he's earned it even if he intends to piss it all away on coke and hookers. That's his money, he can do with it what he wants.
I'm just saying that should we increase wages, as I think we should, we should also encourage better spending habits.
>>64383718 Professional help is bullshit. I went to a shrink for a long time and he didn't do shit for me. I wanted to fix my alcoholism and he said how about burning a dollar bill every time you drink? That was the dumbest shit ever.
>>64383557 >Why do people let this happen? Bragging rights. "Yeah man I spent like 90 bucks on this cable, and it totally makes the bass pop you know man?" Also fun fact: I recall one study where subjects being given 2 identical plates of food, and being told one plate was more expensive. The majority thought the "expensive" food tasted better. It's just fucked up human nature to assume that because something costs a lot, it MUST be better.
>>64383679 No you moron share cropping is nothing like companies paying in company script.
My aunt share crops out her 50 acres of land in Indiana since my uncle died and my cousin wanted to have fuck all to do with farming.
my aunt owns the land she contracts people to farm the land the harvest the crops sell the crops and SHARE the profit (if there is any)
mining companies paid workers in "script" that was not real money and could only be spent to pay the rent on their housing ( which the company usually owned) and be spent in company owned stores, this was NOT a common practice and was quickly outlawed as counterfeiting.
>>64383800 You went to a shitty shrink. Also don't go to a shrink for therapy, go to a therapist. Also look into anti-alcoholism drugs and CBT for that shit. Avoid 12-step programs, because the more they're researched the more we see how much bullshit they are.
>>64383888 >they will inevitably say one is better. Why would they do that? It's the same fucking dish. There is no difference. They SHOULD inevitably say they can't taste any difference. Why would they say one is better, when it is not?
>>64384007 I'm not going to teach you psychology shit head but have this. They say there is a difference because they are told there is a difference. Taste/smell isn't some infallible objective measurement system. Now shut up and stop asking about things you don't know. Fucking moron.
>>64383341 It sucks, Anon. I mean...I'm not the shittiest with numbers, but I don't think I'm accounting or banking-level good. Like...I have moderate skills is most things, like writing, bookkeeping and other stuff, but I don't think I'm good enough at any of them to make a career out of it. And I'm not sure what works, long term
I was told that "make a living doing what you love" thing and lately I've been having conflicting thoughts over how plausible that is. I always figured art was what I loved and what I was best at (even if I'm still not remotely good, compared to peers) and now I feel fucking trapped.
I'm still young, I s'pose, but fuck man. Friends of mine have started graduating University and stuff and I'm feeling like a fucking loser, more and more each year.
>>64383725 No stupid, I wasn't talking about it's origins, which you just googled up. I was talking about the basic practice being essentially the same.
If you actually understood both things and thought about it instead of having a kneejerk reaction and lying to create some form of authority you would be able to discuss it instead of throwing what are essentially meaningless facts into the convesation in an attempt to win an argument that only you are having.
>>64383918 Nice story. But it quite honestly has nothing to do with what I was saying. And doesn't even apply.
Are you both fucking retarded? People would a long time ago pay their workers in fucking "Money" that could only be spent in the stores they owned. Share croppers would do the same thing back then as well. Are you fucking both stupid?
Do you not understand the parallels I was trying to draw and flailing helplessly with whatever you can understand or know or are you so caught up in proving that this didn't happen to share croppers and win an argument that isn't actually happening that you're willing to resort to...this?
>>64384007 Because there are differences. No two dishes are exactly alike. But the differences are probably so small and subtle that neither is actually good or bad. So when the subject is asked "which is better", they will have an answer and that answer won't be objective at all.
>>64384109 Do you think the doctors are out to get you? They're there to help you, and having you arrested would hurt them on a moral but also financial level. They're not going to arrest you for something you haven't done or planned anything for.
>Started college last year >Don't know what direction to go in life, Undeclared Major currently >All this talk of pipedreams and shitty wages >All anybody talks about is debt debt debt >Still can't decide on a major >No matter what I pick I'll end up with a shitty job >Can't even decide on a major that I might actually enjoy, like Creative Writing or Geology, because of all the stigma associated with not getting a degree in something like Engineering or Law I don't think I'm gonna make it brahs
>>64383888 I don't see how you've disproved the quality of the study. Fallibility of the senses in the face of perceived differences that are easily created by marketing is the whole point, you're just reinforcing it with your arguments.
>>64384311 If you ask people to pick a good or bad dish, they will be able to do so with absolutely no difference whatsoever. They would have been able to make the choice even without being told one was more expensive. The only difference was "which cost more" so of course people went for it.
>>64384158 You're lack of knowledge on the subjects you are trying to discuss are actually breath taking.
Share croppers were never paid in company script because they worked for private land owners, some unscrupulous land owners would cook the books to show no profit and there for not have to pay sharecroppers their "share" .
Share cropping for the most part was a win/win scenario if there was a good harvest and crop prices were high.
So shut the fuck up and return to what ever retarded corner of the internet you came from
>>64383815 Who cares if it's below the poverty line (which is dependent on your age and how many kids you have by the way)? You can still easily live off of yearly salaries below that line. Just not if you smoke a pack a day, drink a 6 pack every day, own a large flat screen TV and an XBox One, PS4, and Wii U, buy a shit ton of junk food, live in a major city, and stupidly had 3 kids despite your financial situation.
>>64384201 I don't know. I'm certain that there are some out there who would enjoy seeing a patient with that affliction suffer. Many more would cause harm while thinking they were acting in the patient's or public's interest. I certainly can't think of a category of people who are more loathed by the general public, and doctors aren't that different to normal people.
I feel that if someone were to approach a mental health professional over that particular issue, there's a significant risk it could end extremely badly for them.
>Animation companies bringing in foreign animators >promise them greencard eventually >doesn't let them get lawyers >pretty much here as a slave work with threat of deportation this industry works just like Saudi Arabia
>>64384083 That's true. The STEM degree I tried was Biology and I've heard the job market for it isn't so hot.
>>64384100 I suspect you and I aren't alone in this. Its a shitty thing to fumble through higher education and not gravitating towards anything in particular. I think I'm decent at writing and sometimes I feel like I'm of above average intelligence(though everyone thinks that and my GPA would beg to differ) but there really doesn't seem to be a clear path I can and/or should take.
This is why I think its not a good idea to go into higher education straight out of high school unless you have some certainty with what you want to do and the drive to act on it. I think I would've been better off getting into an entry level job and working and saving instead of going into debt and fumbling around a few years with little to show for.
Our generation is likely going to have quite a few of us and it makes me wonder what kind of long term affects its going to have on us and the country.
>>64384592 The whole point of a psychiatrist is that they're someone who can help with mental illness without blaming the victim or attacking them. If you get even just a decent one, they would do nothing of the sort as long as you're acknowledging the problem, wanting to heal and not acting or planning on hurting anybody.
>>64382483 Well if my parents wouldn't keep me on such a short leash, I'd be founding businesses by now. Or if I lived in a city, where I'd have long since joined a local hackerspace.
>>64380124 That's why I like the idea of minimum internal wage differentials that require CEOs to pay everyone hired by that company at least one tenth of what the highest person in the company gets, while tiny franchise businesses don't need to worry about it if the manager gets less than ten times minimum wage. There'd certainly be ways to make be loopholes around it, but I expect they'd have drawbacks, mostly in reducing precision of control over employees. Which would actually help them by preventing micromanagement, but they still wouldn't like it thanks to being obsessed with control.
>>64384613 Wow, you're retarded. First of all, no it's not.
Second of all:
>the U.S. Census Bureau calculates the poverty line the same throughout the U.S. regardless of the cost-of-living in a state or urban area. For instance, the cost-of-living in California, the most populous state, was 1.42 times the U.S. average in 2010 while the cost-of-living in Texas, the second most populous state, was 0.90 (90%) of the U.S. average.
Third of all you don't have to spend money (or as much) on the things that the calculators assume you do.
Fourth of all, again, it depends on how many kids you have. If you're poor and you have kids, you're stupid, idiotic, and retarded. the poverty line for single people under 65 is $12K; it jumps up to $24K for families of four (two adults two kids).
>>64384592 The job of a psychiatrist is to be someone who approaches mental illness and to provide help. Unless you go up to a doctor and scream "I swear tomorrow I'm going to go to a park and rape all the children," they're not about to go calling any police. They're there to help, not to hurt you. If you go in seeking actual help, they'll help. There's no shame or risk in that.
>>64384775 >living on 1k a month >feasible Haha, oh wow.
>ignoring that the issue is income disparity and wage increase against inflation, not what yhe bare minimum to exist is You'rr a tremendous faggot, and of people lived on the bare minimum our economy would collapse.
>>64384901 >Haha, oh wow. Your fault for living in Jew York City or Commiefornia. It absolutely is feasible. Easy? No, but definitely feasible.
>>ignoring that the issue is income disparity and wage increase against inflation, not what yhe bare minimum to exist is >You'rr a tremendous faggot, and of people lived on the bare minimum our economy would collapse. I'm just saying it's possible you jackass. Plus there's nothing stopping from people getting another job.
>>64384981 >Your fault for living in Jew York City or Commiefornia. It absolutely is feasible. Easy? No, but definitely feasible.
New York, California, and similar cities are the ONLY places where these jobs even fucking exist.
400 dollars a week may be a kings ransom somewhere else but those places may not even exist as far as the industry is concerned. 400 will barely make you rent in an industry where you can expect to pay like a thousand dollars in rent and bills every month. Not to mention that you're expected to have a decent computer setup with specialized tools that are fucking expensive on top of that.
>>64383800 Recovering depressedfag here Majority of professional help is ass, but it's a critical step to getting better anyway. You go, they have no clue what they're doing 90% of the time, but the 10% they do give you important keys to getting better. Psych's are somewhat better than counselors, but you still need to see counselors. Just keep shopping around until you find one that works. I saw like four or five and hated them but when I found the right one everything got so much better.
Hey, things only got that bad recently. Like a decade ago things were better, and people ASSUMED that the changes being made would result in higher wages, since the people making them were "on our side".
Of course the people on our side were the ones rigging the game from the start, as it turns out.
>>64385408 where like do you walk to work what are your circumstances? cause where i live rent for a one bedroom apartment is ~600 a month then factoring in ~$50 a week for gas to get to work ~45 for power ~25 for sewer and water nigga how do you eat? i live in the boonies too not even a city or anything
Executives, I think, have a distorted idea of how much money is worth, because it's been so long since they've been dealing with anything less than six figures themselves. Suppose the executive himself was making $400/week when he started out, 30 years ago, well, due to inflation alone he'd need to be paying $917/week just to pay the *same* level of income today, let alone account for increased cost of living, improved worker efficiency, etc. The problem is, people think a dollar is a fixed unit of value, when in reality, it's anything but, and people's perceptions of the worth of that unit of value are usually years, if not decades, out of date.
>>64384083 STEM degrees aren't less valuable, it's only that a lot of employers need you to take it a step further and get a master's. The stuff they export is not really because anyone else has the quality of education we do but because it's cheaper to train workers you can pay slave wages to. Also I assume you're mostly talking about tech jobs
>>64385769 You want to make a "living wage"? Find a better job that's worth more instead of trying to force people to pay you far more than you're worth, resulting in the least important people on the totem pole losing their jobs.
Earth to you, flipping burgers really isn't all that valuable of a job, sorry to break it to you.
>>64385829 C'mon anon, who do you think you're kidding? It's just math, minimum wage is worth less and less and less. Businesses make massive profits and people who make nothing and get fired for breathing funny should just take it? Fuck that. There's no reason the McDonald's CEO, with an annual income that is over 800 times the income of your standard floor employee, can't hand out the dough.
>>64385955 Not to mention there's almost nothing stopping fortune 500 companies from fixing wages unnaturally low among themselves, artificially lowering the average wage for a job, even if you're working as a programmer or graphics artist. They just caught Apple, Pixar, and Google doing just that in the most badly named scandal of the modern age: the technopus.
>>64384371 I have a bank account that gives me something like 2% interest pa. Mind you, this is a no-frills instant access savings account, and even that would pay out ~20k, were I to put a million there. I'm sure you can find much better conditions easily with that volume. It should be trivial getting something like 40, 45k. Cosy, considering you don't spend a dime of your million. So why do those people even touch their winnings?
>be trailer trash >win 1.000.000 >put in bank >live off interest
>>64385997 Don't feel bad man, get active. We're all in this together. We all have rights as workers and we all have to stand together to protect them because businesses are widdling away at them right the fuck now. Besides if you help the growing lower class help get better wages and working conditions that's gonna pump money into the whole economy.
>>64385913 >That position practically doesn't exist in the US. US animation industry can't even handle that. Why do you think they outsource anyway?
Outsourcing has become something of a shell game anyway.
Usually even the Japanese wind up outsourcing a shit ton of work to the Koreans, and a lot of the time Canadians wind up doing it too. Only both Korea and Canada have been at this long enough that they want to do their own material and they have the experience to raise prices.
So the executives are scrambling to find more cheap labor. The Phillipines are also starting to get uppity and making their own material, and the other usual spots are coming into their own as well. The Jamaicans are trying to train any idiot that walks in to pick up the slack, but with six months of training vs the years it takes everywhere else they won't be able to do much, even throwing sheer manpower at it.
Outsourcing only really works when you have a whole bunch of people willing to work for pennies and able to do the same job. But the way things are going everyone is asking for more money and the people trying to take the pennies plain aren't up to scratch.
If I had to guess, in the next decade or so being able to pull this shit is going to get a whole lot harder. The raw skill and manpower needed just plain won't be there and the competition is just going to get fiercer.
I think they wanted to go for the whole "many arms" idea.
Though it was mostly just Steve Jobs's ex band of sycophants running things. Apple and Pixar were doing a whole lot of fucking around and Pixar in particular was outright making threats to any company that wouldn't play ball and fucking over every single employee of a company they didn't like.
The story broke at about the same time the CEO put out his autobiography about how fucking awesome he was and how he was a brave and noble champion of the people. It was kind of pathetic how half the news results for his name were about how cool he was from the books and the other half from news sites that caught on first.
Military fag here. I make about 2,400 a month. But I'm compensated by having virtually no bills, other than my cell phone and internet. I receive free housing. A clothing allowance. Also I have free tuition assistance if I want to take college courses, I get extra money for every class I complete. And if you're married you get extra money for your wife and kids. Because the U.S. government know people can't live off chump change.
...we don't. Like we joke a lot but you can always tell an animator because they've got that zombie look going. Which is what happens when you're working overnight on unpaid overtime and having to deal with some higher ups ego day in and day out. It can literally absorb your entire fucking life since it's a process that's way more intensive and involved than most people assume.
There are good spots, don't get me wrong, but the whole thing can be kind of a meat grinder a lot of the time. Even on a mostly live action movie like Pacific Rim if you check the credits it takes 50-100 animators just to do a few scenes. Pixar has like two THOUSAND people just to turn out movies at a rate of less than one a year, and they all wind up basically living there. Only it turns out they're wasting away in service to people who've fucked them over without a second thought.
>>64386195 >Usually even the Japanese wind up outsourcing a shit ton of work to the Koreans
The Japanese situation is different than the US. They're outsourcing mainly because of the sheer amount of animation they do and the schedules they have to maintain. For the US., it's a cost and skilled labor problem. Even if the TV networks suddenly were willing to pay a living wage for traditional animation to be done here, there isn't enough people with the right skill set to do it. It's very much like certain kinds of manufacturing we've lost to China. Before we can bring the jobs back, we need to spend years getting the factories and machinery up and running again, and replenish all the lost knowledge.
The Japanese can survive quite well without outsourcing. It wouldn't threaten their industry. We would have a much harder go of it.
>>64384274 I would like to point out something with this chart in mind. I was watching a documentary on comics. they said in 1938 they were paid by the panel for 10 bucks a full page. 10 bucks in 1938 is equal to 163.27. and .63 was equal to 10 bucks now. I don't know about you guys but I would be willing to deal with some shit years if we could get back to half of that deflation.
>>64386768 >Have a civil topic on race in a comic or if someone utters the word "nigger" >GO BACK TO /pol/ in all it's variations are posted within the span of a few minutes >A topic about the economy and wages >A single /biz/ post after hundreds of posts of discussion
Higher ups, mostly. The maybe .5% of people who manage to make it to a senior role get paid pretty decently, since I believe Glen Keane has been paid pretty well. Then you get the executives who take another bigass share. If you've got a celebrity doing voicework that's millions spent right there per person. Like half the money is gone before your average joe in the field starts working, depending on the project and who's actually doing what.
Then you've got ridiculous marketing shit. Accosting to the NYT, Princess and the Frog LOST Disney 200 million dollars because of all the shit outside of the budget you see on wikipedia they spent on it. Which isn't unique to animation, since they lost about the same on John Carter, though that was also pretty effects heavy.
If you check the budgets for movies by studio it's obvious that even with comparable wages, Disney, Dreamworks, and Pixar in particular are funneling a whole bunch of money SOMEWHERE. Their shit costs like fifty to seventy million more on average every single time.
>>64385955 >It's just math, minimum wage is worth less and less and less. Ever considered that the minimum wage has forced companies to overpay people for years and years? Just because it's worth less and less doesn't meant they're not still overpaying; maybe just not as much these days.
>Businesses make massive profits That's what business is about.
>and people who make nothing Oh, they make more than nothing.
>and get fired for breathing funny should just take it? And you're going to fight it on what grounds? "Oh, they deserve it... just because!" Entitled faggots like you are who is destroying this country.
>There's no reason the McDonald's CEO, with an annual income that is over 800 times the income of your standard floor employee, can't hand out the dough. Yes there is: it's because McDonald's CEO is worth far, far more to the company than a burger flipper. Businesses are in the business of making profits, not paying people more than they're worth.
Again, it all boils down to people like you being entitled. Stop it. You don't "deserve" anything. Evil businesses don't owe you jack shit. If you don't like what you're getting paid, then don't work there, or find another job. But don't bitch and moan because you're not getting overpaid. Fuck that.
>>64387198 >If you check the budgets for movies by studio it's obvious that even with comparable wages, Disney, Dreamworks, and Pixar in particular are funneling a whole bunch of money SOMEWHERE. Marketing/Merchandising? Its par for the course in the video games industry for obscene levels of marketing to kill the potential profit a AAA game might make and Disney needs to keep toys, clothing, and memorabilia designs in mind at every step of the creative process.
Which is incredibly presumptuous. ASSUMING that your toys and merchandise will sell is asinine, and it's also a big part of why companies like Disney also wind up with flops that cost them more than the movies production budget ever was to begin with.
>>64387292 I think there is something psychological though about the amount of money. I don't know about everyone else but from point of 100 bucks sounds like a lot of money when we know its really not. but that doesn't mean it doesn't make you pause and think well its at least one step to a good wage at least.
100 bucks now is considered a day rate and that day could be 16 hours.....so its not good but considered enough...:(
I'm saying it might have been easier for employers back then to pay at least decently cause it still doesn't sound that high. their employerers back then were probably getting 20000 a year which was a lot. also runaway inflation is not good either
>>64387871 That's exactly how you and many of them act. Everything is always someone else's fault.
>"I had 5 kids and don't know how to do anything other than flip burgers. You need to pay me more so I can pay for the 5 kids you had nothing to do with! It's your responsibility to take care of me because you have more money than me! Waah!"
I sympathize with poor people, in fact I grew up dirt poor; but I don't sympathize with entitled poor people.
>>64387421 What's wrong with it is that in the long run it will make the economy collapse. There is nothing good or helpful about a handful of people sitting on billions, that money needs to flow through the economy.
>>64388011 >but I don't sympathize with entitled poor people
Nobody said anything about having five kids.
The issue is that expecting someone who spends as much time and money in training as an engineer to barely make rent is ludicrous. Especially when the situation only happens because of outright illegal conspiracies.
>>64388086 Why? Because I don't have an entitlement mentality like you do? Does the truth hurt?
People like you should be forced to have their tubes tied. Either that or move to Europe so you keep your shitty economic/social policies and entitlement, government dick-sucking mentality far away from the US.
$400 a week is only a lot of money when you're a short-sided dumbass kid with no health problems. wtf are you going to do when you get sick? Have an accident? How are you going to pay off your student loans? *How are you ever going to raise kids?*
Are we seriously saying that if you work in animation, you should just give up on a basic normal life? Because the guys who own the network or own the studio deserve that money more than the people who actually make the shit?
>>64388258 Whatever shit job you work, I guarantee you that some guest worker picking crops in California is performing a more vital job than you and deserves to be compensated more than your worthless service industry job. Get fucked bro
btw, if you're biggest problems involve complaining about cartoons, then you are probably super entitled
>>64388341 >chooses to learn a trade that pays shittily >complains
>implying that they'd even have a job if the network/studio had to pay more >implying there aren't plenty of people who would love to make $400 a week and wouldn't complain about it >implying "living wage" fags actually care about the plight of those who have it even worse than them
Work extra hours. Live with your kids in your parents home. Buy new clothes only twice per year. If you get sick and can't work anymore, you pray or you kill yoursell and then sell your organs in the black market.
If mexicans can do it so can you.
>b-but the evil executives are being overpaid And there is little you can do to fix this, other than calling some friends and starting a company of your own where you earn what you think is fair.
>>64386394 >Because the U.S. government know people can't live off chump change. No, more like the US Government knows people won't join the shitty military unless they get paid better than a minimum wage job. The US Government also doesn't care about wasting money because it's not their money they're wasting, it's ours.
All of California can afford to pay artists a living wage (with amazing health insurance). Titmouse West can afford to pay their artists the going rate. Now with Titmouse East destroying the New York animation scene, all of the NY talent is moving west so they can live like a human being. Titmouse East doesn't care, because they hire untrained, just-graduated kids to make garbage; kids who, yeah, love getting scraps, but won't when they've worked for years and are worth a whole lot more than $400.
So congrats on siding with a terribly run company fucking over decent, hard-working people and ruining potentially good shows.
>>64389567 >As you sit here smugly shit posting on a board primarily driven by the creative media that you enjoy but devalue the shit out of. Devalue? No, I'm just not overvaluing it, that's all. Stop pretending there aren't tons of people waiting in line to get paid $400 and work at that job.
Sometimes I eat at McDonald's but just because I think the workers get paid what they're worth (probably a little over it) doesn't mean I'm devaluing the shit out of it. I'm just being realistic and not a "hurr durr big evil business needs to share more of teh profits!!!1" dipshit.
Sure they could get paid more but then I'd stop buying from there because by that point the food would be overpriced, and then they're out of a job period.
>>64390188 >>64390160 I thought about it, but then I remember that being european, if I wanted to live from it with our local taxes and all I should bill people 150euros for a good pic that takes a day to make so I just continue to do it for fun now. Maybe one day I'll put a paypal donation for my whole shit but a piece per piece job would never work.
>>64390188 Any site that lets you upload nsfw art (Tumblr seems to have the horniest users) or is based on porn like Hentai Foundry, just upload your best pics. Tell everyone that you have no aversion to any request (this is the part that will decide if you make $20 or $120 per piece).
At that point, word should get around, but you should also make an effort to advertise by making freebies every now and then, don't pour your heart and soul into of course, but enough to keep people asking for more. Also, go to cons and make mad dosh off commissions.
A year of work experience as an animator has given me a certain type of work ethic which has been extremely beneficial so far but it's pretty tough on the body. Stock up on Adderall.
>>64389998 fuuuucking libertarians. It's like economics for friendless basement dwellers.
Raising wages has a nearly imperceptible effect on the cost of a single burger. It's not a big enough change to price anyone out of a McDonald's burger (they're way overpriced already).
What raising wages also does is make people less dependent on the state and better able to save money so they can take risks, going to school to learn a new trade, or maybe even starting a business, maybe a restaurant that makes burgers that aren't beige, saggy disgusting turds; and then maybe you'd eat a little healthier, not be such a fat piece of shit, you'd get friends, get laid, and then maybe you'd have some empathy for other people instead of empathizing with psychopaths destroying America.
>>64389998 >Stop pretending there aren't tons of people waiting in line to get paid $400 and work at that job. You seem to mistake desperation and shit circumstances with acceptance.
Or maybe you don't but it makes your bullshit "not overvaluing" argument sound right. Because who knew making enough to put a roof over your head and food in your stomach is "overvaluing a creative position". Because according to your piss poor equivalence analogy producing animation is akin to flipping burgers at Mcdonalds.
>>64388011 This is retarded hyperbole but yeah actually, people ARE entitled to the means to raise a family, and a base means of living. Because when people don't have that, they turn to crime, social unrest, all kinds of shit that fucks things up for the rest of us.
In the long term it's WAY smarter and cheaper to just allow people to fart about wasting their life while not starving, if they want, because fuckit it's not like there's enough work to go around in the first place. The notion that it's more "ideal" for these hypothetical lazy pieces of shit to rot in the street or roam around smashing in windows and robbing my shit than to just sit in a low rent apartment watching tv, eating cheap subsidized gubmint cornfoods or taking gender studies as applied to pottery at the local community college is fucking bananas to me.
Fact of the matter is I don't fucking care if people are wasting their lives as long as it isn't interfering with mine, most of my taxes already go towards building shitty planes that rot in hangers until they fall apart, why should I or anyone else get rustled over it going to the most efficient means of keeping delinquents off the streets?
>>64379263 I actually went to fucking law school, which blatantly inflate their statistics and starting salaries. 200k. Couldn't get a job for 2 years and it doesn't look like I'll ever actually get to practice law.
>>64390597 >Raising wages has a nearly imperceptible effect on the cost of a single burger. It's not a big enough change to price anyone out of a McDonald's burger (they're way overpriced already). Wrong. And not only would it affect the cost of a single burger, it would also cut into McD's profits, which means fewer improvements to stores, fewer new stores being opened, existing stores potentially being closed, etc. You're an idiot if you think raising wages doesn't affect any of that. Force minimum wage to $25/hour and watch what happens. I dare you.
>What raising wages also does is make people less dependent on the state and better able to save money so they can take risks, going to school to learn a new trade, or maybe even starting a business, maybe a restaurant that makes burgers that aren't beige, saggy disgusting turds Kid, when you finally grow out of your liberal stage, you'll realize that artificially raising wages is not the way to go and has an overall negative effect on the economy and society.
>then maybe you'd have some empathy for other people instead of empathizing with psychopaths destroying America. Just because I don't support artificially raising their wages above their actual market worth doesn't mean I don't empathize with the poor.
>>64390773 Wow, your entire post is batshit retarded. Basically you wouldn't mind it if the government paid everyone $30K a year to do absolutely nothing. You think this would be way smarter and cheaper and we'd all be way better off. People are entitled to get a certain amount of money, because if they make below that, then they'll become criminals! So lets reward criminal behavior by giving them handouts instead of making changes to the economy that makes it easier for new businesses to form to hire people, and makes it so more people can keep more of their hard earned money instead of having half of it taxed away!
Wow. Just wow. Absolutely incredible. This has to be one of the stupidest posts I've read on 4chan. Congratulations.
Thank goodness people who think like you are in the minority because if you weren't we'd be in the fucking stoneages before too long. Rewarding and encouraging laziness. Wow. Just wow. You fucking piece of shit.
>>64390773 >This is retarded hyperbole but yeah actually, people ARE entitled to the means to raise a family, and a base means of living. No, actually, people AREN'T entitled to it.
The problem with so many Americans is they have way too much fucking pride. They would do well to learn a thing or two from those pesky illegal immigrants who are somehow able to survive because they make sacrifices that others aren't willing to make. Like, for example, families living together so that the cost of rent per person is far lower than it would be.
$500/month apartment too expensive for you? Then find yourself a fucking roommate or two, or find someone who is looking for one. Live with a family member, etc. But no, Americans are entitled to more than that.
Too many Americans are too soft these days. Jesus Christ imagine if that's how people were in the 1700s, we'dve been fucked in the ass by the British Empire.
>>64387773 yeah you're probably right >>64387759 this. They only use human beings because they can be paid little and given responsibility for their own safety in an environment the employer controls.
I did this research. There are 2000 total state and federal OSHA inspectors for the entirety of private American workplaces; that's 1 inspector per 63,000 employees. Their budget is less than 500 million which is fucking nothing; the FDA and EPA have billions. Penalties for a workplace danger that is likely to horribly maim or kill an employee is less than the cost of a couple computers.
>>64390597 This is bullshit. The average fast food place has a goal to keep labor under 20% of gross. Not profit, gross. With food being another 20% or so, and franchise fees, and rent, and utilities, a store making 10% profit is a great success. You raise minimum wage for 7.25 to 10.75 and you just killed store profit. you raise it to 15, and the store is now losing more money than it was making.
>>64391553 >Employers have no excuse not to pay people decently Sure they do: fuck you. It's not your business. This isn't communism. This isn't socialism. You are not entitled to anything. You don't deserve anything. If you don't like it then work somewhere else. But don't pretend your high school dropout bleeding heart liberal entitled brain which is only capable of doing basic math has any idea how to run a successful business.
What amazes me is how you 1st year econ majors seem to build this entire shit argument by comparing an unskilled position of sub-magegerial employment at Mcdonalds with the skilled position that is %80 of the animation field. That is what people are disagreeing with you on. An animator or illustrator should not be making the same as some one who can learn their job in the process of a week. But no keep making bullshit over simplified rants about "wage entitlement" and "value of living".
but this should be expected of a bunch of people who have no idea how the animation and media are actually made but want to tell everyone about how much its worth.
>>64379095 Correction, it's quite livable if you're a lonely faggot living in a cardboard box with basic nessasities. Seriously wtf? No one goes to school to make the same amount of money as a fucking well placed high schooler. That's shit money, and if you want to spend you life earning that, fine, but don't expect it of others.
But lets look at it differently. Mcdonalds has a yearly profit of around 5 billion dollars, and including all the franchises has a little under 2 million employees. Divide 5 billion by 2 million and you get 2500 dollars. Assuming the average mcdonalds employee works 20 hour weeks 50 weeks a year. That comes out to 2 dollars and 50 cents.
The most you could raise wages is 2.50 before there is no corporate profit left. If you raised it 7.50 to get that 15 dollar pay. Mcdonalds would lose ten billlion dollars.
And that is very friendly numbers. Try running it with 30 hour averages instead. or 40 hours.
>>64392032 One, the employees aren't paid by mcdonalds. Two, imagine getting that past your board. "we are going to increase wages by 15%, and by doing so will cut profits by 28%" Three, mcdonalds is already testing technologies that will let them employ less employees. They would rather buy a robot, than give a human a raise.
>>64392127 >Two, imagine getting that past your board. "we are going to increase wages by 15%, and by doing so will cut profits by 28%"
That's why they're supposed to have a degree. To be able to sell and spin shit. It's why marketing and English are required for business schools. It's not even hard.
"We're transitioning our labor force to higher quality in order to cope with the high tech environment of a modern kitchen and focus on accident prevention."
Then you spend a couple of extra days training them not to fuck up and put thumbs in the McNuggets. If any shareholders question it just bring out a pie chart from one of your office employees and compare yourself to a slightly less shitty competitor that's having gains.
>>64392002 McDonalds makes 68 million sales a day. Increasing the price of an average sale by 1 cent raises about $250 million. Raising the average sale by 61 cents nets over 15 billion.
Yes, I know this doesn't take into account lots of other factors, and yes, obviously if you raise the price, you make less sales. But this also doesn't take into account factors that soulless beancounters can't understand, because they require a human soul instead of just staring at a spreadsheet full of bitterness and aspergers; like the fact that when people are paid a decent wage and don't hate their job and their life, they do a better job and make higher quality food that is worth a great deal more in the market.
Or, say, if you pay artists better, they do better art, and make a product worth more in the market.
>>64393150 So, long story is economics are complicated and takes a ton of factors into account and can't be simply summarized with a few math equations or someone screaming "supply and demand" repeatedly?
>>64393150 If mcdonalds grosses 28 billion, and has 68 million sales a day, that works out the be about 1.25 as an average per sale. This sounds very low. But if accurate raising the average sale by 61 cents would raise prices by 50%
The mechanisms are complex, but the emotions and motivations are simple. Income disparity comes down to only one thing: greed. By those who already have made it, and those who wish to make it.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, executives in other countries do not make hundreds of times more than their employees, and their companies run just fine. The fault of the libertarian theory as espoused in this thread, which they proclaim is grounded completely in logic and reason, is based on the faulty premise that all people are as logical and reasonable as they are. Hunger and desperation and jealousy and greed can make anyone unreasonable. When there are enough hungry people, laws and fairness matter little. Kings and Queens are beheaded, oligarchs hang by their necks from light poles, and entire families of landowners are buried alive under their own dirt. This has all happened before. My own father bore witness to such things. Where is the logic and reason to march towards such an end?
>>64392002 >yearly profit of blah If you aren't accounting for the excessive fuckload of money executives make then I'm not listening. The whole goddamn point is that they don't have to make that much and they don't deserve that much.s
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