why are we here, /fa/?
I met a guy from a fashion school in NY and he asked me if I was in the industry because I seem to know a lot. TO what end though? Why am I wasting time on this when I can put energy into something much more worthwhile? Why do you do it /fa/? Aside from covering our insecurity over our lackluster bodies or our lacking social skills, why do we waste valuable time on this stuff?
is it really though?
The way I dress has ostracized me more than it has helped me connect with people.
Guys think I'm gay, girls think a variety of things. I've had 3 this week ask me for my wardrobe, 1 asked if I was guy and I can't count the number of "lol u snob"'s I've heard.
yeah, art, history or film is way more useful at a dinner party or interview than knowing the quality of H&M vs. Uniqlo, what a rise is, or what yohji means to fashion. I can't talk about my cops in public, but I can relate my understanding of art history to modern culture. Which one is more useful?
if you don't think fashion history relates to modern culture i suspect you don't know anything about fashion in the first place besides the names of the few designers you bought off grailed.
go read a book
maybe that's it.
i do like being know as the well-dressed friend however. I would very much like to meet people that aren't stuttering oversells to question the legitimacy of their sneakers. people legitimately don't know anything about clothes.
I love art. I make art. I appreciate fashion as a form of art.
I'm a musician first and foremost and music goes hand in hand with visual art so as I've begun to take my music career more seriously I've begun to expand my appreciation and knowledge of other forms of art. With videos and what not you've got to look presentable and clothing is a big part of that so I started getting into fashion, styling, color pallets, photography, modeling and just aesthetics and shit. Gotta be able to make pleasing visuals to accompany music.
Also through my music I've been able to work with a clothing line and have learned a bit about fashion from them. Shit is super cool.
This. I got into fashion - like, more than the fuccboi "how to look cool" and the human "how to look like me" that gets most people started in it - as an experience obsessive and a culture nerd.
Clothes, at bottom, are about the experience of wearing them, and you do it ALL THE TIME. And because of that, fashion structures people's everyday life more than any medium except probably music, which it's bound up with today.
Being the big fish in a small pond sucks. Yeah, there's some ego gratification, but it's so so much more rewarding to still be useful but around people much better than you, that you can learn and grow with.
You also know where you really stand fast, instead of doubting or deluding yourself about what you actually amount to. When you can't bullshit others, you stop being able to bullshit yourself, and put up or shut up as a human, basically.
Where do you live and what's your social circle like?
>Clothes, at bottom, are about the experience of wearing them, and you do it ALL THE TIME.
Oh, and to expand on this: don't you strive for satisfaction and refinement (not necessarily, like, bougie class based refinement, but just more betterness of some kind) in everything you do?
The feel of good fabric moving with your body and draping across it in a gaspingly beautiful (and yeah, impressive) way is not something you want to do without once you know you can have it. It just makes your life better to not be in cheap, ill-fit cotton all the time, you know?
Well, everyone wants to look good. Looking good improves sociality, being 'attractive' psychologically makes people think you're more reliable and overall a better person and on with the kind of obvious advantages looking better provides.
Aesthetics are strongly influenced by culture, the moment you got here (or wherever you got some fashion related influence) you taste began being shaped up to this moment and here you are, gratifying yourself by looking in the mirror and maybe thinking: "not bad".
So yeah, narcissism, most likely.
Despite what my grammar may imply, I'm a graduate student in sociology in the Washington, D.C. area. I'm 20, so I'm the youngest in my program. As a result, I think I've been marginalized a bit from my peers. Also everyone within sociology tends to be liberal, queer-studies autists, so my conservstive taste and views aren't favored. My friends tend to be intelligent and make up a very eclectic and diverse group of people from varying background, cultures, lifestyles and age groups.
Well, there's your problem. How much longer are you stuck there?
Just out of curiosity, what are your views like and what's your research in? I'm a leftist, queer-studies-and-stuff-like-that nerd and I'm interested in hearing about the opposite side of the coin.
D.C. isn't the greatest, it's gotten better over the last 5 years, but...just a bunch of rich kids and a ton of diplomates and immigrants.
Oh man, I could go on. I don't start my thesis until next summer, I'm taking my first 9 grad credits this summer. I'll be done by the end of next summer. But as for what I want to research? I am fascinated with diversity, the stratification of society in relation to socioeconomic class and the sociology of higher education.
I'm currently pissed with Affirmative Action. It's a joke and has only gone to further a perpetuation of the negative stereotypes of intelligence that many attach to minorities.
And Queer studies? Ridiculous. I appreciate the effort to understand gender as a product of cultural expectation and the western world, but people have taken this "equality" shit to an extreme. I don't want trigger warnings before 15 minutes class presentations. It's idiotic. Life is full of pain and sufferinhg. Some people have it worse than others. Some people have had horrible things happen to them, but if we're continually trying to even the playing field for people, if we continue to try and promote intellectual, emotional, and economic equality among people, we only go towards that failures of Marx. Society must be stratified. There must be inequality. The harder we push equality, the more the barriers of upward mobility close in and the gap between cultural, academic, economic, etc. capitals as per Bourdieu widen.
but then again, my views are ever changing and the is a vast amount of literature that not only have I not read, I have not heard about. I could spouting bullshit, but this is my current worldview. I am a republican. Their fiscal policies make fucking sense, but I wish we did not have to attach cultural and social issues to economic policy. America would be much better off if the two were dealt with separately.
Yea, a lot of people don't agree with me, even a large majority of my friends.
Mm, I don't make it a habit to meet rando's off the internet, but as long as it's not some embarrassing shit show where we're all trying to measure our dicks in relation to how much hour sicc fits cost, maybe.
I like to look aesthetically pleasing, mostly for myself, but the occasional comment isn't bad either.
so, you believe in a regressive tax system, corporations are people, obstruction versus compromise? But really, what fiscal policies do you like
for the record I support neither party, its just that the republicans are slightly more retarded than the democrats (both are retarded, the entire system has been co-oped by money)
I do. A utopian society will never be achieved, and it would be very Marxian of you to argue otherwise. The U.S. has decent chances, albeit, the best chances of upward mobility. Yeah, you have to be in the right place at the right time, but I'm 1st generation. I know how hard the struggle can be and I'm ok with it.
My understanding of economics and economic policy is weak. I can't speak very well to it but from what I do know, I air on the Austrian side of economics. I would love to learn more, but the required math is frightening.
You realize that their is a difference between inequality and social mobility right? Inequality is inevitable, lack of social mobility is not (?maybe it is), or at least it is sustainable.
As an economics student, I'll tell you that the undergraduate economics education is worth jack shit, besides being somewhat intellectually engaging/challenging (im not that good at it myself). They don't really teach the big picture, or relate things back to reality much. The whole economic framework is too stuck up its own ass to realize that it's own assumptions are way WAY to simplified. I digress.
Essentially, I would disagree with your attitude towards inequality on some level and say:
1. inequality may be inevitable to an extent, but past certain levels, it becomes a product of a lack of:
2. social mobility/equal opportunity. There must be conditions in which people have equal opportunity to move fluidly through the social ladder in order for society to function well. Take a look at our current economic climate, low wages, high unemployment, stagnation, low recovery from the recession. Why is this? Because economic and social power has consolidated at the top and has shot the kneecaps of social mobility/equal opportunity that grease the gears of a healthy consumer class and economy. Just my POV, I will stop from derailing this thread anymore than it already has been, but yeah, food for thought.
I agree with your second point. As I mentioned earlier, as we have pushed for equality, we've have further deepened the stratification of society. Movements like the 99% & Black Lives Matters are just perpetuations of the rampant disengagement policy has on promoting social mobility. In turn, people are forced to take out bad loans, kids are growing up in empty families, delinquency is becoming self-perpetuated and so on so forth. I agree with Publican ideals, but I do agree that the government must be more involved in directing mobility, rather than providing it. The "equality" we are pushing is more marxists than capitalists and only goes to further disengage policy from the public.
I went to an debate between a sociologist and economist the other week. They basically touched on where economics tries to simply and define society through regression where as sociology is forcing an unacknloege bias and agenda into it's work. Both sciences could work easily together, but there is a lack of inter-departmental communication. In fact, before Bush came into office, there wasn't a board of economic advisors, there was a presidential board of sociological and economic advisors. Both social sciences are heavily flawed.
I would disagree, and see those movements as symptoms of problems related to how the system of governance treats people in the eyes of the law. As the constitution says, people are equal, this is not to say we should all be equal in every way , but that we are entitled to the same rights, and equally so. These movements are a product of people seeing that some of these things simply cannot occur if this principle would have held true.
And yes, the social sciences are DEEPLY flawed because they have been labeled and sectioned off from each other. It's stupid as fuck, honestly, your right. Right now there is a move towards what is known as "behavioral economics" (took a course on it), which is essentially modeling behavior of agents who are NOT strictly rational, as basically all of mainstream economics assumes. So its a little bit of pyschology mixed with economics, and it was very insightful as to how interdisciplinary the social sciences should be, ideally, to increase our overall understanding of human systems.
I'm very excited to see where Social Science evolves in the next 10 years and I intend to make my mark. I see a lot of changing in the future. It makes my blood just boil thinking about it. I took a synthesis course on the sociology of education this semester and as bias as the course was, I learned there is so much we don't know surrounding the politics within the US university, each and everyone one of us is affected. It's astounding, heinous, and absolutely capitalist. I'm not sure how I am to feel about it.
I'll definitely come to the meet if there are conversations like this. Fashion is cool and all, but I can't only shit on screen prints for so long before I get bored.
Now that I think about it, I like to think of fashion as an art of reflection, reflecting the way one thinks. I want my dress to communicate openness, confidence, wisdom, intelligence and to be humble. To balance all of these things at the same time is a feat I am still working on.
I'm not the DC guy btw, but, if you are in university, join some interesting clubs and youll meet people to converse with...maybe. I;m currently at school and its difficult to find someone to really have a good deep discussion with. Its not like I want to d othat 24/7 but I need mental stimulation as well as casual banter, moderation in everything...especially spending money on clothes
I went to a previous DC meetup and it was quite an eclectic mix of people. There would only be a handful of them that would/could talk about social sciences at the level you're at.
And I do have to refute you about fashion as a topic. You can really get into the nitty gritty of it. Fashion isn't that far removed from fine arts, but like fine arts you need to know the terminology and history behind it before you get any interesting conversations that aren't just "lol I like Uniqlo Rick is my hero". In fact, I would argue that clothing plays a major part as a signifier of many historical and social events.
I wish I could speak educatedly on fashion. Oh to go to FIT or RISD..alas, I am not brave enough to attempt. I did not mean to invalidate fashion as a player in modern history, but only to say there is not such a culture on /fa/ where educated discussions of fashion occur regularly.
Cool thread I guess, OP. To swing the conversation in a direction away from social science and history, I enjoy thinking, reading, and experimenting with fashion for the materials and aesthetics. I have really enjoyed neoprene lately, for instance. I look forward to learning more about how technology and fashion come together to provide more functionality, appeal, and comfort as time goes on. I think someone's outfit really says a lot about who you are, how you behave, and what you value.
Nah you don't need a fashion degree to be able to talk about fashion. In fact, most students at FIT or RISD know shit about fashion (they're usually the "lol I love fashion I shop at Urban Outfitters all the time" or "I wanna be the next Karl Lagerfield" types). Treat it like a hobby and read some biographies and watch some documentaries. I recommend for biographies The Master of Us All (bio about Balenciaga) and D.V. (bio about Diana Vreeland, one of the legendary fashion editors). Documentary wise, Netflix has some good ones, like Bill Cunningham New York and Valentino: the Last Emperor. Blogs like Stylebubble and the Rosenrot have some great essays.
tl;dr pick up some material to read in your spare time. I also like visiting the NGA and looking at what people wore throughout history. Especially when you consider the historical events around their time periods.
Also agree with you about the fact that no one on /fa/ actually knows anything (apart from a couple trips). DC also sucks, especially since it's tourist season. You also sound like an interesting person. We should meet up.
I fucking hate neoprene. I feel like I'm wearing the insulation from the ceiling and walls around my legs. It's so bizarrely spongey.
I can't to continue watching my style develop. I wonder if people interpret my clothes as I do. I think they do.
Boy I tell ya poverty aint no joke. But I've become more emboldened with my dream chasing ever since I gained a support group of people with similar interests. If we go broke we go broke together and we all believe its only temporary.
I like the sculptural qualities of neoprene, but I agree that it does feel like wearing a giant sponge.
Stop caring about what others think. 99% of them know jack shit about clothing. Focus on the people whose opinions do matter (your own, for instance) and come to terms with the fact that you can't control how other people interpret your clothing.
Ah, last year I was obsessed with t by alexander wang, I wore nike, and I tried to incorporate collars into relaxed fits. This year I've been mixing our legacy, a.p.c., & Margiela. Style is the complete opposite of static and to really understand fashion, I feel one must change in order to learn. I'm excited to see where I will go next.
I will check those out! Thanks.
Sure, you seem pretty cool. I'm here until July, then I'm off to Spain to visit cousins and to conduct an anthropological ethnography (fuck around europe for credit).
Got a kik/other messaging app? I have another friend I met off of here so we could chill somewhere, like Admo or something.
It's hard and it takes practice. You can't take criticism from everybody and trying to appeal to everyone's taste will make you boring. Remember, you are the only one who can make yourself feel satisfied about your progress.
expanding on this, are there any reliable, comprehensive resources on fashion history? i have some idea but anything before the 90s is an absolute blur to me. practical experience with the clothes themselves can only take you so far without the social, cultural and historical context.
There are many generically titled, broad books that cover the history of modern fashion, generally beginning with Worth. Fashion by Christopher Breward is good :)
There are also books that focus on a designer, decade, trend, fabric, city, method or style but you can look for those yourself I think :)
Check the archives! If you live near a fashion or art school (even art history) spend some time in their libraries or see if you can get a guest membership for access to their books.
sometimes i wonder if my reasons for doing it are... glib. i like looking nice, and i like mixing and matching and styling outfits. it's a practical artform, really. i want to cultivate an image, i feel confident when i feel i've put together a cool fit, and if i'm gonna have unrealistic standards for women, it's only fair if they have them right back at me.
you guys should read sartor resartus. all the world is clothes. everything is how we "dress" it.
This is why I recommend reading and learning ABOUT the history of fashion and haute couture.
My go to recommendation for beginning is to start with something people have probably heard of: Balenciaga.
He has a very interesting story and it predates Chanel and YSL.In fact they look up to him and Coco even said Balenciaga was the better couturer.
it's odd that I even have an interest in fashion given that I live a very isolated existence for the most part but it meets the same end I guess that any obsession does - same as I was obsessed with dbz & books as a kid - then video games, anime, film, music, art, literature etc etc coming into teens -then drugs, graffiti, theft, etc etc.
funny that i spend any money on clothes cause i am technically obese and without question hate myself and my body but its a way to bide time and opt out of real living. spend money on high end clothes in the same way I spend money on meth and video games
even when I would say I hated 'fashion' as an angsty teen I would diy shit & thrash clothes just as way to be repulsive and opt out of most social exchanges.
if i wanted to sum up my aesthetic
"I wanted to rub the human face in its own vomit and force it to look in the mirror. " J.G. Ballard On the reasons why he wrote Crash
Aside from the experience of participating in art (as well as a dash of narcissism, I'm sure) it is also a good, easy indicator of your mindset and way of thinking aesthetically. If you see someone else on the street wearing a really well thought-out fit with good pieces from good designers etc., along with any other subtleties that make an outfit look good, you immediately know that that person thinks in a similar way as you do. This isn't necessarily true for some of the other arts like visual or music, where it can be difficult to discern any immediate similarities between you and the person (which is why conversations are always good u know).
Not to say that that makes fashion in any way better than the other arts, but it is a good, quick indicator of a certain way of thinking, and I think a lot of people want to relay this in social situations
for dudes that don't care just know that fashion is the foundation all social exchange is based upon & regardless of what you are wearing or not wearing will happen on some level
dude i admit it to myself literally every second I am living I have no delusions though yr repulsion is lowkey enjoyable its like smoking cigarettes and blowing them in your face as you pass or hitting a pyrex in a parking lot while you're there with your gf/family/self.
True, it is a very foundational. I think when people are "fashionable" they are simply realizing this, becoming more aware of social interaction (as well as aestheticism and art in general really), and acting upon it