>muh clitmouse edition
Old thread: >>45761417
Buying Guide: http://ktgee.net/thinkpad-guide
I use a Thinkpad X60 computer, in which the FSF installed a free initialization program (libreboot) and a free operating system (Trisquel GNU/Linux.) This is the first computer model ever to be sold commercially with a free initialization program and a free operating system, and thus the first computer product the FSF could endorse. (It was not sold that way by Lenovo, however.)
Looking at a T420 with a 2.5ghz i5 and the NVS 4200m gpu. Is the intel hd 3000 alright for real basic gaming? (Hotline Miami, Risk of Rain, Counter Strike: Source/Global Offensive, Garry's Mod, FTL, etc.) Or would I be better off using the discrete gpu even though it's meant for CAD shit?
I am sorry to blog it up but I am in the middle of buying either a x200, x201, or a x220. I am a pretty big poorfag so I am leaning towards a x200. I am mostly going to just use it to study, test code, web assign h.w, watch chinese cartoons and study with the laptop I will get. I currently have a t60p for this purpose but the battery life is not good and if I don't get a seat near an outlet it really hinders my study time. Is the battery life between the x220 and the x200 that big of a difference or would the x200 be ok?
do i want one of these? are they worth it/any good?
Im buyin the set of 3 nubs and so i figured i would just bundle it.
that's what i thought but figured i would ask just in case it was any good.
other than that are there any "must haves" for the t420? I'll probably get an msata for windows and maybe usb3 express port
anything i'm missing?
Well some distros work better than others when it comes to the cursors sensitivity.
I like the sensitivity high and moderate acceleration when I use it, normally, windows just weeks after setting it up, but a few distros like Xubuntu and Linux Mint at the time didn't have the quickness.
So I out the concave one on there and it works better, muh hand doesn't slip.
But eOS seems to work fine on the T410 and T43p, maybe I've changed and didn't know it.
Is completely full of shit, your list of games is a run down of titles that run great on the HD3000 and he has no clue what the fucm he's talking about. Only Source game the hd3000 has a problem with is Titanfall
Get an X201 if money is a big issue. You even get a lid latch and a non-gimped trackpad (I've never actually used it, but it can't be any worse than the X220, which I have used). The CPU sucks compared to the 2nd gen ones in the X220, but it's still much better on battery life than the C2Ds in the x200 and will probably still do everything you need to besides gayming.
On a side note, does anyone have both the X201 and X220, and can comment on how they compare in terms of build quality?
Main laptop is a t61 with the 14.1 inch, 16:10 screen.
I love it, it's working out very well for me.. even the battery life is pretty decent, despite still being on the original battery. the only thing I really miss from my t42p is the 4:3 aspect ratio, I needed to move to widescreen for watching my Chinese cartoons.
Just ordered 9 clits to change them on my 755 and X60. Spare parts are always nice esp. when they are cheap. Also got a 4cell battery for my X60.I want to keep th form factor and not have something protruding out like a tumor.
Will the sickness ever end?
I got a T420 HD+ with dock that is my daily driver
A X60 that I more or less got by accident on ebay
A 755CE that I like to tinker with
An Edge 13 that I got from my school
and a T43 that I gave to my sister to use.
This tickles my inner /s4s/.
How much battery life do you get on your X60? Also is the Edge really as bad as the /tpg/ autists say? And how does it compare objectively to the good ol' T/X/W series, both before Ivy Bridge and after?
I get around 3-4 hours in #! from the 4 cells.
The Edge were very bad. Ours were the AMD model. We were 25 in class and lots of them went back to IT and CS regulary. The keyboard is shit, the performance was bad, battery life was shit. Lots of loose hinges and cracked bodies. Its not like we were children. All 18 or older.
Mine still works, I keep it for house guests. I mostly used my T43 at school.
74. OUR I. B. M. SALESMEN
Tune: "Jingle Bells"
1. I. B. M., Happy men, smiling all the way.
Oh what fun it is to sell our products night and day.
I. B. M., Watson men, partners of T. J.
In his service to mankind-that’s why we are so gay.
2. I. B. M., Watson men, International line:
Proud T. M. - Dayton Scale - and I. T. R. so fine
I. B. M. goods and men, leaders all the time.
Saving money, time and men, in every land and clime.
>IBM confirmed for faggots.
should I pay 70€ more for a t430 over a t520?
the t430 looks brand new but had the 6 cell (or 3? anyway it's flush) 1600x900. 400€
the t520 looks a bit more used and has the 9 cell.
My Thinkpad are a little bit neglected...
What can I do to give it more use?
Also, I've installed Linux Mint on it. Im doing well?
>Get a HD+ t420
heh I can't find them here in europe.
all 1366 crap selling at 300 like the hd+ t520.
also I get the possibility to upgrade to a full hd panel on the t520 in the future.
thanks I guess I'll go with the t520.
do you think that sandy vagina will be able to keep me company for 2 years?
Soft dome master race
It hugs my finger, and I can actually press down on the lip to move the cursor.
Too bad it makes a mark on the screen, but that's nothing a little kleenex can't fix.
>a slower mouse
come back to me once you find a pointing device that takes literally no time to switch to the keyboard from
aw shit I found a t420 hd+ for 280€ in my very town
seller says battery lasts 1h30min tho, so I guess I'll have to replace it soon
still, it's 50€ less than the t520 I was eyeing...
I finally bought a X201 with a i5-560m, best purchase in a while although it has 2-3 dead pixel but they're not bothering. After the X300 the only downside is the keyboard which is clearly superior on the x300 and the added weight but since the battery life and cpu power is so much better I can't complain.
I'm really disappointed with the build quality on my X230. I already had to send it back to fix a multitude of issues (they even had to replace mobo). Now, the keyboard's switches are failing, and the bezel above the screen feels like it would snap off under any amount of force.
I'm not rough with my laptop at all. Are newer Thinkpads normally this shoddy? I'm loving the Linux compatibility and the clit, but at this point I'm wary of buying anything Lenovo in the future.
I have a t400 with a 1400x900 panel (which is TN) and a dell studio 1537 with a 1280x800). The viewing angle is much better on the t400. Why is that? I know that they are both TN panels. I know /tpg/ says that most thinkpad has shitty TN panel. I find them better than shitty Dell's panel (consumer level).
Had to install fresh XP on my X60 now I can`t scroll through my playlist on spotify with the scroll button of the trackpoint. Everywhere else this works. I have installed the Trackpoint driver ofc.
>tfw the only reason you browse these threads is to experience the nostalgia of being poor and having to put up with sub-par machines, deluding yourself that you got a good deal, 3 minute boot times are adequate and CPU temps at 90C are normal.
>tfw i lurk these threads on my rMBP (2014) while my T540p sits on my desk gathering dust
Lenovo makes them, they are their higher quality line. If this sounds dumb, actually this is the only difference now, the badge.
They used to be different. Not that they didn't have problems (instead of going on a long rant, I'll just point the placement of Fn and Ctrl).
If you need modern hardware with a pointing stick, go for a proper Dell model.
Good thinkpads are old thinkpads.
Price is low, size varies (T6*/X6* are bulky, T4**/X** not so bulky).
Most of them are from old businesses, so they come without HDDs.
Jokes aside, it's probably a spotify issue. Try scrolling with your middle mouse button.
I have had problems with #! and lubuntu with the sound (scratching very bass heavy) In XP it is flawless. I need this machine only to play music so I don`t rally care what OS I use.
That works but I`d rather prefer not to have a mouse around. On my Win7 T420 this is not a problem.
I just got my first thinkpad (X200) but the battery life is like 20min. The win7 it came with said 3h, now using Fedora as a temporary OS until I get home and it says 1h 20min. Reality is, it hibernates after 15-20 min. Should I just get a new battery and deal with it? Also is there a place where I can buy legitimate new batteries with possibly free shipping?
>Stellar loonix support.
>Standard keyboard layout.
>Durable plastic, spill-resistant keyboard.
>You can get them fairly cheap from businesses who dont need them anymore.
That's about it, really , modern thinkpads(**30 and beyond) have become ultrashit by ditching the standard layout in favor of a non-standard one to get rid of a row that there is space for.
Honestly the chinks should just take a classic IBM keyboard, strap it on a generic ECS-made 4200U board, throw in a chromebook pixel display and sell that shit.
>go out to buy RAM and a SSD for my newly bought X220
>don't even care about boxing day sales, I just want to make this thing work
>drive by the computer shop
>40 people lined up outside, inside is probably full
>its fucking 9 o'clock
>only computer parts shop in the city
>tfw I just want to make my thinkpad work
fuck boxing day and fuck this city
IBM is the only company I'm willing to "shill" for for free--as in not covering their logo with a sticker like I cover Lelnovo's. They really mean business, no pun intended. And they don't come off as much as a douchebag company as Google, Microsoft, and friends; they probably are though.
IBM doesnt give a shit about consumer markets.
They're after want the server and business markets. As such currently they're not really doing anything we care about. ( let's face it, a very small percentage of /g/ owns a business, much less one that needs IBM's solutions )
Somebody is selling a t400 really cheap where i live, thing is speakers dont work, i googled it and it seems to be a normal problem. How easy is to change the speakers, is probably a hw problem right?
T400 is a nice daily driver and general usage machine, and if it's dirt cheap might as well take a look at it.
Also changing the speakers isn't that difficult, somebody will probably post the user manual or search for it online.
The build quality of thinkpads really is great. Their components are all easily accessible and upgrade able, even the cpu. Their keyboards are very pleasant to type on and they also have the clit mouse. It's business grade hardware and I'd prefer my $100 t61 over an entry level consumer laptop like a $300 dell.
Go ahead if you're willing to fix it, while you're at it might as well clean it up and check if anything else is faulty\broken.
Hell if it was me i wouldn't really care about the laptop spears since i would either use a pair of headphones or an external pair of speakers, one thing that you might want to look for is what type of screen is installed on it and if you're willing to pay the extra pesos to get better screen.
>bubbly sxga+ x61T owner responding
/g/ says its not a ThinkPad, I've heard there are ghosting issues so that kinda sucks.
Also there's a few different screen sizes, a 12.5" and now a 14" one as well.
And there's the original Ideapad Yoga that had some complaints, so a ThinkPad Yoga was made to fix those errors.
I like the X-series tablets but the HD only screen is a bummer, the 2013 12" yoga has a FHD screen that is optional which I'd want.
I don't know how keyboard feel is.
X240s have FHD IPS panels but there isn't a tablet version, and they've gotten rid of the nice thick design of the X230 so now it resembles an Ideapad IMO.
Z40 is more of a consumer laptop so its going to be cheaper price, as far as durability it might not be the same.
Arent there Asus threads/generals?
I got a SSD for my X220, and I want to install it, but the previous owner seems to have taken out the HDD caddy when he removed his drive.
Is there any way to install this sucker without the caddy?
pic related, the drive and SSD
I've got a problem with my X220's microphone. Obviously the headphone output is also used as the external microphone input. I managed to uninstall the driver on Windows to make it a headphone port only, but on Linux I am not sure if it would work at all after removimg the driver.
I only want to use the internal microphone and the headphone port for sound.
I know this but I really didn't want to make a list of shit that's different between 20 different laptops because he simply stated just the fucking manufacturer.
You can install it easily without the caddy. It'll just be a pain to remove it. Also assuming you don't have the rubber rails either, which will mean the hard drive will wiggle around a little and possibly damage the connectors. But you can fold up some paper and wrap it around the both sides for a snug fit that should keep that from happening.
I wouldnt change the screen, yeah i was thinking about it, the main use would be doing simulations(electronic engineer) and watching movies with my girlfriend in bed, i am low on cash and it is a really good deal, i need to know what thinkpad speakers would fit in a t400.
I'm a 3D artist and I'm looking to maybe get a portable workstation since I tend to move around a lot.
After looking at the buyer's guide I was thinking of maybe trying to find a X60 tablet.
How is it overall? I mostly do Z-Brush, photoshop and Maya.
How would it fare performance wise? Is there something out there that could be better?
Thanks for the help /g/
I mean, yeah, it's a good bang-for-your-buck piece of hardware, but massive threads constantly about the same type of thing? Especially when the ones that are being discussed are old as shit. What warrants it?
Get some paper to mimic the shock absorbers the caddies do.
Get ducktape, fold about 2" inches of the sticky side together and then tape the extra onto the ssd.
BAM ghetto caddy.
I do very light photoshop CS work on my X61T.
Its great but if you want to do 3D objects n such, you'll need to have a bigger budget.
X220 is something you'd want.
No you're really not.
>They're the best bang-for-your-buck piece of hardware
answered your own question there, didn't you? They're a great piece of technology, they have a lot of features that people here like. It makes perfect sense for there to be threads here about them.
yeah, insofar that 'criticism' == complaining about people posting in one thread about something they like.
He didn't bring up any valid points for /tpg/ NOT to be a thing. Literally none. That's not criticism, that's just being a whiny bitch.
fuck right off.
There's a difference between simple appreciation of a product and massive, ongoing threads about different variations of an old, niche (nowadays) computer. You don't see it with old Apple IIs, Newtons or whatnot.
So what are you trying to say? That there should be massive, ongoing threads about Apple IIs, Newtons, etc.?
Thinkpads have a cult following here. It might be overblown. Sure. Whatever.
Why. Does it. Matter. To you.
So is a t420 for 390$ with 4gb,i5, and original charger&battery in nearly mint shape. Its a spare from a local buisness that getting new laptops.
Its a city thats 10 minutes worth of a bus ride away.
My concern is that i have no idea what kind of screen it has and if the seller is a total kikelord.
What they don't get is: take an i7 hasweel, slap it in a w520 body, put an IPS 1080p screen on it, and a 9 cell battery. people would form queues longer than apple stores for it
Upgrading my X61t to 4gb of RAM. Would this do?
Anonymous 12/26/14(Fri)21:44:39 No.45795376▶
These are the only ones available used where I'm from, which would be the best from these?
i passed over the thread so many times last few days i just had to fire off a quick question
im looking at thinkwiki now, i will lurk
i guess its a linux compatibility hardware thing
>i guess its a linux compatibility hardware thing
so does everything else
they are high quality laptops that are very cheap when picked up secondhand, that is the point of ThinkPads
I'm not pulling the trigger yet, as I'm in doubt.
Any "bad" experience on thinkpad bought on store from ebay? Like they've worked well for only the first weeks/months?
I'm seeing that E6220 can be cheaper than X220.
Too expensive for an R-series
Hope it has the best spec and it'll worth the europrice
As I've said, the res kills it
Try Dell Latitude counterparts.
T400 = E6400
T410 = E6410
T420 = E6420
Also keep a look out for cheap Precision models.
Prioritize the highest res then CPU
>get a new (used T420) thinkpad
>running great so far
>suddenly getting very high ram usage just doing normal shit
>hard drive light flashing like crazy
>4 GB RAM
>mouse and programs lagging occasionally
I'm not really sure what's causing this, you guys have any idea? I'm thinking it might be a combination of Firefox being a memory hog and the computer trying to do Superfetch? I'm not sure, though. If I grabbed another RAM stick to give myself 8 gigs, think that'd give me enough free memory?
It's only flashing when the performance goes to shit and RAM usage spikes, which only happens every so often.
I'm wondering if it isn't Superfetch doing some kind of:
>oh, he needs to get his programs ready
>let me load them into RAM
>oh look, firefox fills up most of the RAM
>better load them onto the page file!
>fills up the rest of the ram and starts using the page file
But I don't know, I've never had an issue with Superfetch, even on worse computers.
I'm sure they'll work fine but the biggest worry is usually from cosmetic imperfections, I've had a few friends who've bought business class laptops (admittedly not thinkpads ) that have arrived very dog eared, and while they work absolutely fine, they look like they can shatter to bits and sometimes a return can be very inconvenient or difficult to arrange
I know /g/ likes to hate on new thinkpads, but the new Yoga is pretty nice.
For me the T61s combine cheap, durable, ergonomic, effortless to work on, plentiful with plentiful parts, and sufficient performance for most tasks including light AutoCAD 2015 use. I have several dispersed in my home, shops, and trucks. I have an X200 for school.
Smartphones are cool but pathetically tiny, and all non-notebook portable devices have utter shit ergonomics compared to a proper notebook. What serves me is convenient computing. I'm lazy and don't care to carry what I don't have to so 'Pads everywhere has worked great for several years.
Ultrabays are handy for expansion, single-screw hard disk removal makes swap/ugrade effortless, docks are ideal for use with desktop peripherals.
I have faster desktops, but my main machine is a T61/8GB RAM/1TB HD and it's sufficient for VMs or anything else I use often.
Every Padophile has different uses for them. They are versatile as fuck.
I can afford any new PC I want or need. I choose 'Pads.
I buy used RAM off Ebay from sellers with good feedback then Memtest it. Several buys so far and no problems.
People care about feedback and Ebay is the first place I look for Thinkpad parts.
>Is it easy to replace the plastic parts of of thinkpads? Like do many sellers sell replacement plastic lids etc
That's why I love the fucking things. Lenovo manuals (free download) rock, the plastics are plentiful, and you can buy new complete screw kits if you want spares.
>thinking that x60 fsf endorsed thing is anything special
"libreboot" is nothing but a coreboot distro
coreboot also runs on the T520, T530, X200, X201, X220, X230, and X60
C720 comes with coreboot installed FROM THE FACTORY as well as SeaBIOS, which allows easily installing a Linux distro on the bare hardware, in addition to RUNNING A LINUX DISTRO FROM THE FACTORY. Also the C720 has an Atheros WiFi chip which is ONLY WiFi chip supported by a FOSS driver AND a FOSS firmware
Did you view the running processes in Task Manager?
Fun Firefox story:
I got 8GB RAM for my T61 but had not yet switched to a 64-bit distro. I applied the PAE patch (which it was at the time) and the 4GB maximum process limit allowed me to keep running when Firefox or its extensions went apeshit!
I suggest exporting your Firefox passwords and bookmarks then removing and installing it again, testing, and adding back your add-ons one by one.
I find Seamonkey better than Firefox on Windows.
If you don't see pics, ask for pics. I ignore stores and fuck paying for warranty. I build 'Pads from wrekt ones and have never had a bad time over several years of doing it.
Do RESEARCH the PRECISE model (see code on bottom) on the Thinkpad Forums to ensure you get exactly what you want.
Shopvacs throw crumbs unless immaculate inside and unless you shove a plastic funnel onto the end won't be small enough to get the velocity you'd want.
I use an old toothbrush to agitate dust when removing.
I have a thinkpad edge e420 (ie. fakepad) and the only thing I don't like about it is the low res reflective 1366x768 screen.
Is it possible to purchase a replacement screen from a different model (such as the one from the X1 carbon) and replace my current screen with it? They're both 14" so the fit is right, but I'm not sure if there's anything internally that would make it incompatible.
Wait, what do you mean "you ignore stores"? That you "prefer" to buy from an anon who used his pc who knows how and none has ever checked in which condition it is?
A question since you look confident with the products. I had a look on thermal repaste of the x220, video, forums, etc...
Is it my impression or is it somehow annoying and delicate as an operation? You have to literally open everything if I remember right.
To be more precise, I "don't seek stores" and ignore if store or not. I buy CHEAP and look for ads where I can sense someone doesn't know what they have or just wants to off it. For example if I want a display I find a dead notebook that's very clean, check code for display, then if suitable I buy that instead of a panel and keep the leftovers. People selling panels may be reasonable but complete notebooks are often as cheap or cheaper.
If I'm looking for a good machine and it boots to BIOS with no password problems or other described defects I have no issues buying. I look for units with no hard disk since I upgrade the ones I use anyway.
For specific thermal repaste info check the Thinkpad Forums for tips on X220. Great resource for all things Pad related. I've not done one of those so I've not seen one apart. I use a good 00 Phillips driver (Wiha are under ten bucks), take my time, and never force anything. Lenovo manuals show screw lengths and locations.
I stick an old hard disk magnet to my screwdriver shank to retain screws and for lifting them out of holes. Another magnet is my screw caddy.
RIP. That looks like a crack from pressure, what happened? It might be cheaper to get an x201 tablet that's got a problem but a good screen instead of getting a new screen, compare the prices and see.
Example manual download page:
Download a Hardware Maintenance Manual for your 'Pad even if you don't take it apart. They are informative!
PSREF page, useful when buying used Pads whose seller doesn't write a good description (and you don't want to make any smarter!). There are a variety, but this is for the WITHDRAWN products /g/ loves. Don't forget to scroll down:
Save the link cuz if I get smothered by a fat chick someone else can keep poasting.
Take a run of scotch tape and put it along the bottom of the drive, fold the last inch over itself to make a tab to pull the drive out in the future, like the caddy would have. If the drive is loose, use strips of electrical tape as shims on long edges. Problem fixed. Enjoy your beautiful X220T.
From my X230T
What's the degradation like in the Li-ion batteries for these things? I bought a used t420 from ebay recently and the 6 cell battery lasts 4 hours if I put it on super eco mode and the planets have aligned, and even less if I'm browsing the web with a screen brightness that doesn't cause me eye-strain. The battery manager says that it is in "good" condition but it also says that the battery is just over 3 years old. The conflicting messages are confusing me.
All luck, I bought a 9cell t420 last week and the battery came with 30 cycles on it.
It lasts about 8hrs on a full charge assuming you don't go too nuts on the brightness and the discrete gpu is turned off.
I have an X220 and my friend had an X201. Three years on the X220 has developed a crack in the side near the hard drive bay, while the X201 cracked all around the rear hinge and left the display swinging by the right hinge only after 18 months.
On the other hand I've seen a lot of perfecetly serviceable X201s around so his case might not be representative. They both feel similar in the hand.
I'd check the Thinkpad Forums for the best part number for your unit, and remember to post with the code so they know what you have. Someone may have one for sale or you can use the FRU number to Google and search Ebay which often lists by those numbers.
>I'm calling bullshit on something that can be verified true with a Google search
GO runs at 30-40fps on medium on an hd3000 with current drivers and sufficient RAM, your previous experience is irrelevant, Intel's integrated was optimized for source games since 2012.
Plan on getting a w510 to do the heavy lifting my t60p struggles with.
I mainly do CAD & rendering & have a lot of other shite open as well. It has a powerful & more powerful graphics chip that will probably have better Linux drivers as it wasn't made before the universe can into existence.
Anyone own one?
Cons n pros?
It spent a lot of time in my backpack and on the ground, so that could have been the cause.
UPDATE: The crack spread, the screen is going apeshit. RIP until I replace the screen.
Did you notice they're all out of stock?
I heard Richard Stallman walked in and his fat ass fell on a stack of them and broke 'em all. Not even the thinkpads could withstand such a force.
>mfw I realized I only need one laptop in my lifetime.
Now I just need to hoard some parts.
Amazon has genuine batteries that are cheaper then from Lenovo, but not quite dirt cheap as the Ebay Chinese ones. Just make sure on Amazon to pay attention to what seller you're buying from or you will end up with an expensive Ebay Chinese one.
Pretty average price now. Depends on the specs and condition.
Okay, laggy T420 here.
Got to the point where it lags, and my RAM usage is near 100%, but Firefox is only around 600 MB, which isn't bad for Firefox. The weird thing is that it works particularly fine until the RAM fills up, then everything gets slow and the hard drive usage shoots through the roof. In Resource Monitor, the disk usage analyzer just says it's the System process doing a bunch of writing to the page file.
Ran CrystalDiskInfo but it says it's doing all right, and it says it's got 258 hours on it. Trying to find if there's some information somewhere online now.
My T530 has been doing random hard shutoffs for a year. Have had a terrible problem diagnosing the problem and was nearly ready to just buy something new.
Finally had the time a few days ago to open the case and check things out. Didn't notice anything out of place, and it wasn't dusty at all. Pulled out a single hair stuck to the board and pulled out and put back in the SSD before screwing it all back together.
Was convinced nothing had changed, and if anything, I'd probably fry something with static.
Have now gone nearly 72 hours without an issue.
Feels good to be back, /tpg/.
>Sir I am very sorry. Upon wiping the solid state disks on this machine the device will no longer boot. I have tried and tried again to fix the machine but it seems to be fried! I am so sorry about this mistake and I feel awful for it. Please accept a refund and find another machine elsewhere
I'm so sad /g/, It took me forever to find a x220t that good ;_;
Windows never acted like that before, though, even with shittier laptops with the same amount of RAM and the same browsing patterns.
Well, whatever's making page file writes lock up my whole system, I dug up a 2 GB stick from a cheap-ass Lenovo my dad spilled soup on repeatedly, so now I've got 6 GB until I bother to buy something bigger. I was kind of mad when I tore open my own cheap-ass laptop to harvest the RAM from it and it turned out the RAM wasn't separate from the mobo. Cheap fucking laptop doesn't even let me cannibalize it for parts
Just bought a 420 and it's pretty cool, but the x series seems a lot more portable and I kind of want a linux laptop since the 420 is windows for school shit. What's the best x I can get used that wont break the bank and is ideally small as possible