>in job interview
>asks me what i've programmed in my free time
>tell them i don't program in my free time
>they're genuinely surprised at my answer
Whats with this mantra that you must spend hours a week programming in your free time "for fun" in addition to a 40hr/week job so employers know you're passionate about your profession?
Who the fuck gets home at 6-7pm after staring a monitor for 8 hours and thinks "hey, I really want to program for another 4 hours for no money because I love it that much," or who the fuck wakes up on a Saturday morning hung over and dives right into some "recreational programming"?
People assume that you enjoy programming, because as far as careers go it's pretty fucking great. You're not breathing in dust, not walking miles a day, not doing retail or working on tips. You get to express creative thought to build something without really expending any *physical* effort, only intellectual.
If you think of programming unequivocally as a "grind", then you're going to burn out anyway. People get home at the end of an 8-hour day and think about how they can tinker with a side project and make it better. Thinking of it as "I'm going to clock another 4 hours" is basically projecting wage worker mentality onto a hobby, which is not just wrong, but nonsensical.
I have so many unfinished projects. After taking care of work, school, and other obligations, I find myself exhausted with no energy to work on my projects.
I really have respect for the people that can come home after work and still find the energy to program.
>not programming hung over
>not writing software for fun on the daily
>not running into a random problem in your dialy life and thinking "wow I could write some software that solves that"
like not even a troll fizzbuzz that only uses addition for modulus operations?
neither do I.
My boss asked me what I did on my weekends. I told him go out clubbing, get wasted and recover in time for monday.
I got this job over some autist who had 100 github repos
Your job is your life, OP. Now get programming.
I don't think it's admitting you're shit, but it's admitting about as much.
Imagine if there was a really good outdoors retail store that paid well, had good benefits, etc... so everyone wanted to work at that retail store more than others. Imagine going into the interview and telling the interviewer that you don't really care for outdoors stuff except to the extent that it informs your work as a salesperson. There's no strict expectation that you go test out every piece of equipment that comes through the store, but you not *personally* enjoying the activity in question raises a red flag about the genuineness or extent of your interest in the topic area. And given that this is a good place to work, they can afford to pass on a guy with decent work experience and recommendations because there's a dozen more people just like you, except who actually enjoy this shit (or at the very least have enough social intelligence to know that this is where you tell a white lie)
I'm the development lead on a project we've got going at the moment. I have about 5 "construction workers" under me who actually spend their entire lives coding. The boss didn't want an autist in charge. Probably why I got the job.
It's not necessarily easy, I admit. There are periods where I'll basically not add anything to side projects I've got.
You don't necessarily need to finish things, or even implement them at all, but if someone asks you what other stuff you're into, you should show that you're mentally engaged on a personal level by rattling off at least a few *ideas* that you've thought of for side projects.
>You're just a low life if programming is all you have to do with yourself.
More like you're just a low life if you think your set of hobbies is better that what other people prefer to do.
people like you are festering shit you know that?
I went through fucking college dealing with you assholes who thought your shitty code was great and you were gonna make so much money, no give a fuck about how software works, no care for streamlining, honestly people like you are literal cancer of humanity
people like you are why programs are written like shit, run slow, even on new modern hardware, and cost out the ass. How about go be a fucking salesman or something and leave the intelectual shit to the smart people
never said that's all I have to do with myself
just said programming is one of those jobs where passion breeds excellence
it's just like sports, if you were signing basketball players and one told you he never plays or practices except when someone is giving him money then would you sign him?
if you hired anyone really and they said they never gave a fuck about a job which costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year to maintain your sorry ass, would you even want them there? seriously?
I don't know why you are trying to make baseless assumptions, but I have many hobbies, and programming is one of them.
However, claiming that someone is a "low life" because their idea of a good time doesn't match yours does nothing other than making you look silly.
Well you can move into management because by going out clubbing you will gain interpersonal skills. Going out allows you to see what people actually do and how you can make money off of them.
Just a few ideas, but hopefully you get it
>you dared apply for a McDonalds and you don't enjoy flipping burgers as a fucking hobby?
you dared apply for a retail job and you don't enjoy shilling on web forums as a fucking hobby?
you dared apply for a police job and you don't enjoy beating up niggers as a fucking hobby?
First job I got never asked me this shit. Since then I've just networked for jobs and never really had to deal with "real" interviews anymore. Thank got I didn't graduate now and would have to deal with having online accounts of my "contributions" to various projects for I've even had a day of real job experience.
The difference is that enjoying programming is pretty crucial to having a job as a programmer.
Programmers who don't care much for programming tend to switch fields or push their way to management.
That's why the question of "do you actually enjoy programming" is important for employers, because it generally (not always, though) tells the prospective employer how well you would be at your job.
>he didn't plan out an intricate set of bullshit projects that look good for your interview
I want to program. I can program. I am qualified to program.
I just have no interest in doing it in my free time. Like nearly every other profession people leave their work in work.
I think most people would do this but it's the principle behind it. I don't see the problem with not wanting to do more work at home when you're already doing it for 40 hours per week.
>Black and white much? Your mind is just black and white? Absolutely passion vs absolute hate? 1 vs 0? Are you retarded?
The fact that you are getting so buttblasted over a simple assertion shows more about your mental state than your half-baked blubbering ever could.
you couldn't even come up with something? an idea you maybe thought about doing?
i think the right move during a job interview would have been to make something up instead of saying you dont code during your free time. they're much more likely to hire the next guy if he has the same qualifications as you but works in his free time, he'd be easier to exploit and would probably do better work, or at least faster work.
also, its not like they asked you what you do for 4 hours after every work day. They want to know if you use any of your skills outside of work and if so, how you use them. A clever answer could be very indicative of a good hire, imho
Programming is treated like art, despite being STEM.
Mechanical Engineering student? Get co-op/internships. Not many build robots over the weekend for fun.
Applied Math student? Not many do math in their free time and publish papers. People do research under professors.
Art student? Better have a portfolio and enjoy doing art for fun.
Programming? Better have a portfolio and enjoy doing programming for fun. Plenty of people program for fun after work, especially "famous" "top tier" programmers.
Hell, I was at a conference yesterday and most of the projects the speakers talked about were "for fun" projects after work.
BUT you can get your 9-5 $50k a year .NET/Java job if you want without enjoying it.
It's especially important in management. But it's not like I don't have technical skills, I have to code review them too and sign off on their work. It's just that I personally find sitting at home coding kind of depressing.
You're not alone. I will say, the best programmers /tend/ to be the ones who do it as a hobby as well, but it's not essential.
That's not even the same
you're listing a career which often pays as much as 70k to develop software, which is used by millions of people, acts as the main product of the company, and requires efficiency, perfection, and passion.
You don't have any of those things, you think programming is a waste of time by the sound of it.
You openly said, not just that you don't care for it as a hobby, but that you've never spent ANY free time on programming. Like you go home and forget that shit all together. Like trolling, programming is a art, you have to love it or it or you're literally the "coder" retard we make fun of in /g/ humor threads.
Honestly it's not that you don't love it, fine don't.
But you don't even practice something which is suppose to be a career? Really? This isn't McDonalds brah, this is straight up applied mathematics and logic, and if you think that's wrong your code is likely shit.
I'm not going to get into an argument about this, just saying my peace while everyone else loses their fucking minds.
END OF LINE
I know I could have inspect elemented this, but I'm honestly not him. I haven't browsed /b/ in years. Generally because I post from (and currently am at) work.
what programmer makes that little? I work 10-5 as a c programmer and still make $80k. i literally don't do jack shit, usually implementing things in a day or so and waiting a month to tell people its done, or really just waiting until someone starts yelling at me and try to milk it out as long as I can. Most of my time is spent browsing 4chan in a text only browser in plane sight. But it just looks like a terminal or some shit.
I see posts for the following at $50k in a low cost city:
- VB.NET, some .NET
- Some super old Java EE stuff
Sure maybe some are not "real" programming but you get my idea.
Anyway what I meant is that there are jobs for those with no projects and an empty resume—they just do not seem to be like fun jobs.
I have literally no idea what kind of shit they expect me to code on the side.
I'm still in college but when I'm at home I have no ideas for something fresh to code. What kind of scale they do want? Do they want something unique? Enlighten me /g/, what do you come up with?
Not a NEET, I work fulltime. Maybe I am wrong about the other majors but in my experience, at least for Web Development, a personal programming portfolio outside of schoolwork helps a lot and is well recommended.
Perhaps in other areas of programming it is different.
The best suggestion is to make something you wished exited. For example, I made a collage generator for Anilist.co (MAL-like website). It made a picture of the last 4 or 9 anime you watched. I released it to the community and got some suggestions and keep maintaining it.
It taught me how to use AJAX, jQuery, and PHP. I am currently rewriting it in React and using browserify to develop it.
I've also made "plugins" for IRC bots and smaller stuff.
They were the only thing people talked to me in my interviews, not my education.
If you cannot find anything, do something like this:
>>47742589 or make a game, etc.
What about applying for a job after college? Having classes, homework from classes, group work, and a job really leaves no time for free time programming. Gets worse when you are in your senior year since you have to start job hunting and working on larger projects for classes.
Doesn't help when other classmates have their parents paying for tuition or cheat off each other.
this is totally wrong
i'm a scientist\engineer as my main job and i program as a hobby
i wouldn't even consider coming home and doing the exact same shit i do at work
even if i enjoy it, it would be too much of a good thing, i'd get bored
Sounds good alright. I'm just not at all creative when it comes to thinking of my own ideas. I can do almost anything someone throws at me at my current level it's just coming up with my own unique ideas and going through with them that catch me.
I did, no one cares. People were impressed I did something "for fun", that it worked, I kept maintaining it, and has hundreds of visits a months (not a lot but once again good for a side project).
I'd argue it's what got me my job or at least got me through the interview, which I like very much.
That hits on three type of cheap programmers.
>Business analyst with a high tolerance
This person is considered technical because they can tolerate a clusterfuck of workarounds that the code in their company is built on. Programmers in this area possess some combination of letting their skills become dated, being untalented or lacking credentials to get a serious job.
Programmer who only says yes and tolerates a huge amount of horrible code, meetings and middle management. They do so because they are extremely untalented but they have strong credentials. These are stable well paying jobs, even if the posting doesn't say so. Anyone getting paid less than $80K to write Java is getting scammed or a foreigner. Typically north of $120K.
The web is a ghetto that no one wants to pay for but everyone needs it.
>Anyone getting paid less than $80K to write Java is getting scammed or a foreigner. Typically north of $120K.
You must be living in a relatively high cost area or you genuinely don't know what you are talking about.
>Who the fuck gets home at 6-7pm after staring a monitor for 8 hours and thinks "hey, I really want to program for another 4 hours for no money because I love it that much," or who the fuck wakes up on a Saturday morning hung over and dives right into some "recreational programming"?
Real programmers. They were right to be surprised by your answer and will rightfully not give you a job in programming, ever.
If you're not obsessed with programming, you're not a programmer. You're just a fucking script kiddie hacker.
I ask the same thing of my candidates. I ask if they game and other things related to illicit a conversation on what they know beyond their CV.
I want to know that they are passionate about tech and problem solving so that they can bring new ideas and solutions to the table.
I don't even care if you have a degree. But if you have the passion and a natural acumen for tech, I can work miracles with that.
Meh, since I started working, I do not program in my free time. 8 hours a day is enough time spent programming. After working 8 hours and commuting 3 I am too mentally drained to make any sort of software.
However, when I was learning how to program, I had a few of my own projects. Most good programmers do, in my experience. So when they ask you what you program in your spare time, just mention one of those projects, even if you haven't worked on it recently.
In my case I made a few platformer games using libgdx. It doesn't have to be anything serious. Maybe it's just a project from a book you are reading.
And since you are presumably not working right now, you can invest some time in a project, so you can answer that question accurately. I do think most people who are genuinely interested in programming have a few side projects they want to make. They might not have the time or the energy for it while employed, but if you are in the process of looking for a job, that is not a problem.
I think you can separate projects into two categories. Some of them you would only take on because you are being paid to do so. Others you would do for your own entertainment. Sometimes they overlap. In that case, you have found a very good job.
So, this isn't dentistry or accounting. No one is a hobbyist dentist. No one audits tax filings for fun. But there are thousands upon thousands of hobbyist programmers because some of the things you can make as a programmer are entertaining in their own right. And those people tend to have a little more curiosity than the guy who is only there so he can afford a nice car. And they also tend to be more fun to work with, because they're more interested in what they're doing.
That's my take on it.
I work as a Guitar Tech professionally.
I play maybe an hour tops a month outside of work.
I don't really feel guilty or anything about it.
Talking about Guitar with people is boring and annoying now though.
St Louis is pretty cheap. I don't know a single java programmer in the area making less than 80K. Most work in "enterprise" companies. I work at an enterprise company. C# is the same story. Enterprise programmers tend to be less competent, but the pay is still great.
I think the issue is that most people ITT do not equate programming with a creative field like music or art, where personal projects and self learning is expected and promoted.
For a lot of jobs you DON'T need side projects, but the trend is that people that get good jobs and careers do stuff on their own because they love problem solving, and if they have a problem or an itch to scratch, they will code something to fix it.
Not to mention programming is very much a creative field. I have seen people use it to do very cool and random stuff—like using web sockets that get data to control a NES. Yeah, "useless", but fun to see and showcases knowledge of skills.
Ironically a lot of top companies now give their programmers time every month to work on side projects.
Programming job interviews are the worst
>trying to get past HRs bullshit
>asking me questions in the interview that I could just google in 5 seconds in real life
>wanting everyone to be super specialized in one language(Most roles don't need 10 years of c# experience. Any competent java developer could switch to c# in a week)
Thanks for the advice anon, I've worked on tons of side projects and only one of them has actually come to fruitition, so I've been nervous about what I'm going to say at an interview about this.
I've only applied to one programming job, but it was completely different than what most everyone says
>first was the technical interview, a remote google+ video interview
>first ~30minutes is spent waiting for the boss to finish his long ass conversation in the hallway, while a bunch of software devs just sit idle staring at my face displayed on a 60''+ hdtv in a meeting room
>he finally gets in, make introductions, talk about when i can start, etc.
>guy walks around the building with his laptop showing me the break room, lunch room, the lab, some silly dirty old bean bag chairs they have in the corner of the room.. this takes about and hour and half
>finally get to the part where they ask me some coding questions but we have technical problems with the screen sharing software
>after about another hour of troubleshooting they just give up and ask me to walk them through writing a function to reverse a c string. easy.
>they ask me some shit about where I think technology is headed, etc.
>about 4 hours later but only 30 minutes of actually interviewing me they call it a wrap and schedule an on site interview
>second on site interview
>get to office
>door is unlocked, no receptionist.
>cell phone has no service within the building
>walk around looking for someone to ask for help
>finally find this guy, looks about 50, in a suit, tell him who I'm looking for
>he asks me if I work here, i say no, and he tells me I have to leave immediately if I don't have a badge
>was going to explain but he seems really agitated so i just left.
>once i got out of the complex i called the manager but he didn't answer, so I waited for a while and left.
>i kept trying to follow up for a week and then eventually they send me an email from a "DO NOT REPLY" address stating that the position was filled and not to contact them anymore under any circumstances.
Not even that anon but I can honestly say that if all you have is programming skills you won't really get to a place where you'll be "making money". People who only program will be tied to corporations to actually create products and they likely won't venture out into entrepreneurship to make any serious coin.
Since I've been in school I haven't had any personal projects, luckily my current job didn't ask about that during the interview.
It's hard for me to justify spending time on my own stuff when I've typically got class projects, homework, etc. to work on instead, not that I dislike programming or anything.
Once I'm working I'm hoping to start doing more personal stuff since I won't have homework or shit to worry about in my down time.
getting paid for programming is like getting paid to make model trains
people like you get into programming because it pays well except it doesn't pay you well
it pays me well
I make 120k a year, writing software for a company which was a startup not five years ago, we develop software and sell that shit for a mint, and guess what
we LOVE it, every fucking minute
we make this money because we put in nights and weekends perfecting our code, so that we can have more features and better reviews so more people will love our shit, except it's not work to us, it's having fun and solving problems and hanging out with your bros (though actually being successful has led to some bummers where people have to be "professional" now)
and guess what? we get dozens of you people aplying for "coder" positions every day, saying they can clean up or streamline or add this and that, they want to be our fucking code monkey servants, doing the shit work we don't wanna do, except that we do that shit cause it aint work. if we have solved a problem we have the code on hand and don't need it written, if we havent and it's simple enough for YOUR normie ass then we'll just write it in thirty minutes (tops)
you are a worthless speck, don't love programming? fine, but don't you dare try to say you'll ever be making real money being some lame fucking code monkey, or that having a passion for something is somehow a bad thing.
>spend 40hr/week drawing buildings
>get home and draw buildings for fun
>shitpost on /g/
OP, I love my job so I do more work outside of work. You just need to think more about what you want to do with your life.
My company tries to act like this. It's really trying to exploit you for more work. They want you to go home and train yourself on things so they don't have to pay you when you have to do new shit. They also want you to love coding so they gave make you work more hours for free and act like you want to do it. Good job you dodged the bullet there
Not OP, but that isn't how I look at it. If I played video games every day for 8 hours a day, the last thing I would want to do at the end of the day is play more video games. Everything in moderation, or it gets stale fast.
because it's about creating freedoms.
the corporate bullshit is 100% survival (actually working all 8 hours in from of your monitor)
people really do this? I barely do like 2 hours of real comp sci work a day. in my current 25 hour week day.
Most small companies don't want to train programmers. They know there's a A LOT of people who read blogs/HN and try the latest things by themselves for fun so they expect everyone to have working knowledge of their stack.
because they can
ITT: "Recreational programmers" who are happy to contribute to the under-valuation of their own profession by accepting less-than-fair pay because they think their job is fun.
This is called H-1B scamming.
They "interview" citizens for the position first. None of these interviews are even met to lead to hiring. It's just a process they have to go through before they can hire an immigrant.
The reason the interview lasted 4 hours and was largely screwing around and inane smalltalk? So they can say "we invested 50+ hours trying to hire an American citizen but we couldn't find anyone with the skills we needed" when they are audited. Your 4 hours of wasted time contributed to this sum.
This is why anyone who supports more H-1B visas, more immigration, and so forth is a fucking idiot. The big tech companies are lobbying for more visas specifically because they do NOT want to hire Americans. This is why both parties are doing nothing to stop all of the immigrants coming into this country. Their corporate overlords want cheap work. They can hire two or three desperate H-1B workers for 50% of the pay of one American.
The tech industry is notorious for this, because programmers demand high salaries, and that's why there's so many immigrants in software development. If you complain about it, you will be called racist, or fired for being against "diversity."
Keep in mind, if you wanted to move to another country and work there:
a) half the time your citizenship wouldn't even be considered, or the process would take years only to be denied
b) you would face discrimination in most parts of the world for being a White yankee transplant
c) if you wound up in court, or even just pulled over by the local cops, you would be totally FUCKED
Japan is particularly notorious for c. Americans who wind up in the Japanese court system are always fucked over because they are considered gaijin outsider scum. And most of the world is even worse. South America? You're fucked. The Middle East? You're fucked. Russia? Fucked. China? Fucked. India? Fucked. The only place you might be safe is Western Europe.
I've moved up into management in the firm I'm at. I did start off as a code monke, but you find that social skills matter more than your technical knowledge in getting to better, higher paid positions.
I'm also in Australia and hence get paid more than most burgers like the average /g/ user
Except everything is a lot more expensive there.
It's a good thing no one's flocking to 70% of those places to work. There's a reason everyone wants to come to America for jobs.
lol should have had a portfolio of shit to talk about, it's all part of the interview and job hunting game that varies by profession. sort of like how pure science jobs expect you to have done research outside of class, engineering companies want to know about your design team activities, and so on. people who are genuinely passionate about their work will perform better than people who only do it for the dosh, and so this is a good way to filter out duds right off the bat.
apart from that I'm thankful for being able to do something that I love for a job and get payed for it. however, I don't do anything outside of work related to it. Some people may live for their job, but others want to pursue interests or hobbies outside of work. do what makes you happy, if someone loves programming all day every day then all power to them.
>It's a good thing no one's flocking to 70% of those places to work. There's a reason everyone wants to come to America for jobs.
There is. We actually pay developers a decent salary. For the time being. The corporate oligarchs who own this country do not want to pay a decent salary. They want to pay the absolute minimum they can get away with.
That's why Google, IBM, and Apple are all tied up in the court system for colluding to keep pay as low as possible. That's also why they are all lobbying for more H-1B visas, sending your politicians big checks. The Democrats will spin it as "diversity is always good :D" and "anyone against this is a RACIST." The Republicans will occasionally speak against it, but they won't actually DO anything about it, because they're paid off too.
Meanwhile thousands upon thousands of foreigners from all over the world are flooding in and taking jobs that would otherwise go to citizens. If the CEO's had their way, developers in this country would be earning about $40k a year. That's their wet dream and at this rate they may get it.
It's pretty obvious if you know what to look for. If you go into the office and 75% of the employees are foreigners, the company is milking out the H-1B visa program. If you look on craigslist jobs listings, every other ad will say "taking H-1B applicants" or "offering sponsorship for non-citizens." What that really means is, "we don't want to hire Americans because we can hire Koopesh over here for cheaper."
Other countries actually take steps to protect their workforce, but Americans are gullible and get all of their news from the same big corporations that are pushing for more immigration.
Big time racket. Everyone loses but senior management.
Oh, and Google? They don't pay any fucking taxes. They pay like 2%. Apple only pays like 10%. So don't believe anyone when they say corporate taxes are too high. The numbers are publicly available.
you're better if you actually like your job
this is the case in literally 100% of occupations
you not liking to program as a hobby is a redflag
i am a gis analyst and i do that shit for fun
So what if I'm in college? I still have more work experience than you do, and no you don't program, you're a fucking indian code monkey who went to a new delhi degree mill
you scrape by stealing code snippets from stack overflow
I'm not going to stop replying until you admit that you don't really program.
You simply grind away for 8 hours a day tapping away on a keyboard and using google when things turn hard
Obviously, we all can agree on this.
But then what people are proposing here is this:
If you don't enjoy your job enough to be working on something related to your job in your free time, you don't deserve that job.
So much truth in one post
If I were an employer I care about results, not what my employees do in their free time. If what they do in their free time is something that contribute to them being better employees, it's their choice. It isn't always the case that people who are more passionate are always better. There are other intrinsic attributes like talent that passion can't cover for. If they do their job well, why do you care? There are people who are able to produce results based on other motivations, such as the wanting to provide for t heir family.
Am a Comp Sci junior, have an internship over summer. Didn't really encounter this much but the one time i did i just said only small stuff like scripts. They didnt seem surprised that i didn't have personal projects, so long as you do have experience.
you're a kid though
no offense intended, but you're not far enough in your field to warrant side projects
but something will start naggling at your brain and then poof- you've got an idea for a side project
next thing you know you're blocking out flowcharts and pseudocode
>but something will start naggling at your brain and then poof- you've got an idea for a side project
That's true, the reason i haven't made anything is I haven't really thought of something i would want to do much.
I have two ideas that continually bother me, but i have no time for it, nor the knowledge
>write a program to convert binary data > analong data and vice versa to back shit up on audio tapes
>the same thing but with video and vhs
it's slow going because i'm also dumb and not a programmer
i can't even implement a point in polygon test
>not lying in your interview
>not making up stories about shit being your hobby and backing it up with some more shit
>implying I didn't just go through a panel interview of 4 - twice, then 2 phone interviews, then another phone interview with the company's DBA overseas (they have branches based on US, costa rica, india, philippines) and lied about unix being part of my hobby because their servers are based on debian
>implying they won't call me on monday for that sweet sweet job
In a year or two I'm going to steal your jobs /g/.
How does that make you feel? I'd blend in easily too, not just in my work place.
See the thing about bosses in global companies, when they feel like you're a threat to their position, they'll suggest you to get transferred to a different location for more "opportunities", and that's my whole plan. I'm leaving this 3rd world shithole and embrace freedumbs.
Companies have to deal with a lot of shit to get an immigrant.
>Legal fees, paying for someone in HR to deal with the mountains of paperwork
>Takes months to prepare an application
>H1-Bs only chosen in march, after that it's a one year wait
>30-40% chance of being accepted into the program, if it fails it's back to square one.
>if the applicant makes it through he can only start work in october, where he/she can be completely redundant/useless if projects change
>when that person is in the US there's a chance he'll get kicked out for whatever reason and fighting immigration is pointless
Meanwhile Europe alone has 750 million citizens, how many solid programmers are among them? And how many good programmers are there in the US knowing how bad the education system is?
>not breathing in dust
is this what all shut-ins are like? why would you want to be inside all day for 40+ hours a week. there's more dust inside your offices than you think.
>not walking miles a day
sounds unhealthy to be sitting all day
Call me a man, but I'd rather work with my hands at least a little bit more than using a keyboard to make my living. And get paid way more doing it. Programming isn't even lucrative.