>american friend telling me about his new chip debit card
>he's surprised when I tell him I've had one of those for close to a decade
Why is the US so far behind when it comes to card technology?
I mean do you guys even have NFC cards yet? Nowadays you can just tap your bank card and have it pay instantly. While NFC phone payments are neat, you guys sure shit the fan when it comes to debit/credit cards.
It was a pain in the ass travelling in other 1st world countries without a chipped card. Now I don't have to carry a wad of cash or get one of those prepaid NFC cards in every country I visit.
US banks just didn't really care. They were happy to be where our banks ceased to be in the 1990's.
Online banking features and security devices also were shit when I was in the USA just a few years ago.
Some banks apparently even took a long ass time to clear transactions between some of their actual bank locations. Meanwhile, Europe long had this working inside banks, between national banks, and for a while even in all of Europe.
American banking / financial infrastructure is terrible and the problem extends beyond just cards.
Did you know in the USA it takes 3-5 days to process a banking transfer? Where I live such bullshit does not exist, transfers are processed automatically, instantly.
Interesting I see this thread now, I just used my new credit card w/ chip for the first time at Failmart the other day and I didn't get what the hell the pad meant when it said 'insert card' and finally the cashier had to show me. I've always just swiped w/ my debit, and the first 5-10 times I used the credit card, I also swiped that.
I think Americans are wary about NFC because they've seen stories about guys with card readers just brushing up against people in a crowd and stealing their credit card number, which I still feel like is a legitimate thing that could happen.
For full disclosure, I'm 23 and I've had my debit card since like 2007 or 2008 and just got the credit card like six weeks ago
So why did the rest of the world upgrade?
I recall fraud is generally a bigger problem than in the USA than in most of the first world, and that's not even just the case with banking, though also...
>Did you know in the USA it takes 3-5 days to process a banking transfer? Where I live such bullshit does not exist, transfers are processed automatically, instantly.
Hah, same idea as me just one post ago. Yea, this is ridiculous.
You're right, NFC also doesn't have much acceptance here yet for that reason.
But chip cards don't necessarily need to have NFC, they just can have chips, which aren't so ridiculously easy to clone or even blindly fake as magnet strips are.
Yep. I also had that issue with my acquaintance's bank account, at which point I forfeited e-banking as option on my account.
Oh, and it was *cheaper* for me to withdraw money with my swiss debit card over the Visa plus network than with a rival US bank's card on an ATM. And that was in Sillicon valley.
Laws are changing. By October everyone that takes credit cards will legally have to have NFC readers.
I just dropped $25k on new POS systems at my business two years ago, and I'm going to have to drop another few thousand on new card readers before the end of the year. It's bullshit.
PS: You can't easily "steal" the card with NFC, but you could quite possibly authorize a transaction IF there is a "cash" aspect to the card.
If it's just a contactless way to read the chip before you have to enter a pin anyways with no method of pin-less payment, the danger is of course quite low, but there also isn't much time to be saved as opposed to inserting the card briefly.
Because the rest of the world isn't quite the same level of money grubbing jews that Americans are. And I imagine some of them came into credit cards later than the USA, so they're more likely to join into newer technologies.
If there's an asshole in this situation it's Visa/Mastercard.
The whole chip+pin rollout is a way to push liability to vendors while still charging them the same transaction fees.
Because what are vendors going to do? Refuse credit cards. In the US, only hole-in-the-wall vietnamese restaurants will accept that level of survival.
> Because the rest of the world isn't quite the same level of money grubbing jews that Americans are.
How come your banks aren't actually famous for that?
Somehow our 6% of national GDP banking sector contribution is world famous and everyone thinks we're just one giant bank.
But the USA can do not only Paypal and Visa and MasterCard, but also all those domestic small banks and grab quite ridiculous percentages of money everywhere while offering pretty poor service - and it's not even part of the national image in some way?
> And I imagine some of them came into credit cards later than the USA, so they're more likely to join into newer technologies.
Maybe some didn't do Visa / MasterCard or such.
But everyone with banks had debit accounts, right...? I bet some of them had chips even before they had Visa / MasterCard in non-touristy stores.
>Implying the average consumer makes a decision on security features
This failure to get with the times is because the companies didn't want to buy new tech despite old tech having issues.
It is so banks can make interest off of that money. Similar to americans having to file paperwork to get money the government owes them back at the end of the year after the government has made money on the interest.
>Did you know in the USA it takes 3-5 days to process a banking transfer?
It's not a legal requirement, it's a shift of liability from the bank to the merchant.
You won't have to actually use chip and pin for many years.
>I just dropped $25k on new POS systems
No you didn't, even brand new EMV terminals are at most $750 a piece, and you're not replacing your POS systems, you're replacing the terminals.
If you have to replace your entire POINT OF SALE system, you're a colossal mongoloid.
Yes, the average consumer would influence that decision if they felt uncomfortable switching over to it. Banks aren't clueless, and if focus groups or whoever find consumers wouldn't like it, that's just one more reason to not adopt it in addition to the upfront costs of adding new POS hardware, implementing it, etc
Also not true.
A credit sale, in general, takes between 1-2 days depending on when that sale was batched and the authorization was captured.
A credit return takes between 2-5 days because it has to go through a much, much different banking network system to work. This is because consumer accounts and merchant accounts are wildly different in how they are connected to this system and handled. Taking money out of a merchant account needs a lot more checking than a consumer account.
Bank-to-bank transfers from consumer accounts are instantaneous at all major banking institutions.
People however, are clueless. I've never once heard anyone be concerned about the security of NFC or scammers. This is a country where it's common to get skimmed just swiping your card.
I haven't caught a single whiff of batch-to-deposit timings changing with NFC or EMV.
Once its authorized its authorized, and gets added to the batch as normal. Shouldn't impact transfer times whatsoever.
I briefly skimmed this thread so I may be reiterating some things others have posted, but I haven't really come across the important points.
The deal with American credit cards/banks is that America got into electronic/credit banking faster than anyone, more or less. That's why weird shit like American Express exists; it's a charge card, which means it's in some weird limbo between a debit and credit card; it simply predated the idea of pure credit cards.
So of course, fraud for this new medium hit America first, and has been hitting it hard ever since.
After numerous fiascos, American banks had to step it up, and continue investing in all kinds of fraud prevention and investigation. They got really, really good at it. While they couldn't prevent the fraud from ever happening (and it happens a shit ton), they could clean up the mess faster than banks in any other country. Seems inefficient, and it is, but they built the infrastructure, and they really don't want to just dump it all for this new fangled smart chip thing.
So the banks just pussy-footed around. In fact, they all pretty much stated that they wanted to skip smart chips altogether and just wait for total electronic payments to take over (e.g. google wallet or apple pay). They were banking (pun not intended) on being so late to the party that they wouldn't even have to show, basically.
But laws are now forcing them to comply, so, yay America I guess.
It's pretty sad when the premiere card company, Amex, doesn't even issue EMV chip & pin unless you specifically ask for it. They don't even offer chip & sig AT ALL yet.
>Bank-to-bank transfers from consumer accounts are instantaneous at all major banking institutions.
That may be but it doesn't show up instantly for the consumer. Which is what I meant by it not showing up for the customer.
I completely agree the tech is there for it to be instant but the fact remains that checks cashed and transfers made do not show up instantly for the customer.
Like I said earlier, the bank holds onto it and plays with the interest made in that 3-5 day window.
>US had better established system for online transaction authorization before many foreign countries did.
I'm sure it still surpasses most 3rd world countries'.
I think the issue might be that it works to lesser standards than any other G20 country or even Eastern Europe, though. That is quite silly for a really big 1st world economy.
Again, I don't know what shit bank you're at but account-to-account transfers are not 3 to 5 days. And if they're consumer-to-consumer with the proper authorization, they are instant.
No transaction takes 3 to 5 days to complete unless the merchant intentionally delayed it, or it was held up on suspicion.
Whether or not it shows immediately is again up to whatever shit bank you use, authorized funds are immediately "taken" from your account and take 1-2 days to reach the merchant depending on batch timings.
Stop using such a shit bank.
Settlement != Authorization
Not even remotely
Authorizations are immediately and instantaneous, they are what verifies you have the money you promised to give the merchant and what holds that money against you at the bank.
Settlements are the actual transfer of money and that takes 1-2 days depending.
Both EMV and NFC support the same ISO/IEC 14443 standard contactless payments
I literally can't remember last time I paid for something with physical cash. Such is life for Norwegian oil Jews. You can even get terminals that connect to your phone so why would you want to carry disgusting physical cash? It's dirty, it makes it viable for criminals to steal your wallet, it degrades, etc.
>but m-muh privacy!
Maybe I'd you didn't live I a fucking un-regulated police state without digital privacy laws it wouldn't be such a problem.
Again, that's entirely up to your piece of shit bank or the merchant intentionally having a delayed settlement time.
There's no guarantee it will only ever take 1-2 days, but that is the quickest time settlements can be run, and in general is how most people are set to operate.
>But the conversion could take years to reach critical mass amid a squabble over who will foot the estimated $8 billion bill, and despite fears that scammers have been targeting the United States because of its outdated technology. U.S. credit card fraud rates, once the lowest in the world, have doubled in the 10 years since chip cards spread through Europe.
Basically, once Europeans switched, American credit/debit cards became the low hanging fruit, even for the eastern europeans that make skimmers and sell track data.
>first presentation: proxying
Well yeah, the problem is that you have to consistently act as a MiTM on the challenge which makes you easy as fuck for banks to spot and for the consumer to notice.
Nigger, that's another name for NFC. It has nothing to do with the contact chip in the card and was chosen for branding purposes. The contact chip is pretty secure (though it is subject to certain replay attacks). Any wireless tech without shielding can potentially be tricked by a man in the middle but dynamic challenges from the same terminal repeatedly that are fraud make it easy to spot.
Why even have a chip? I've collected so many cards on my phone literally by swiping near your wallet. Even been to the Disney Epson center? I copied my card NFC and made my phone use it, surprising everyone.
>Why can my tiny shit europoor country do an overhaul on an incredibly complicated system that deals directly with the money of a gigantic customer base?
Probably because the US is so incredibly and vastly large in comparison to wherever you're comparing it to.
For a bank to implement a system change they need to make sure that everything works absolutely fucking everywhere within the US. Every store, every city, every state. They also need to implement the proper back-end solutions within their system to make sure that it works and is secure.
It's not "muh jews runnin' muh banks" bullshit. It's entirely about scale and consistency.
That, and if I'd hazard a guess, the vast majority of all fraud is through online transactions, which has absolutely nothing to do with any "hardware security" on a credit card but is reliant entirely upon credit card number and CVV code.
Yes, it baffles my mind.
Again, not only the pretty competent and wealthy countries from the G20, but *Eastern Europe* itself had reasonably safe, chipped cards rolled out before you did. That's just silly.
Even more so since I'm pretty sure you pay more with cards than most do.
>Probably because the US is so incredibly and vastly large in comparison to wherever you're comparing it to.
The EU is bigger in this regard, anon. More people, more houses, more shops, more GDP.
So this argument kinda falls flat immediately.
The EU is not one gigantic country that all have to comply to eachothers standards.
It is a collection of countries with their own separate governments, funding, taxation, banks, etc.
Even for a bank operating within all of EU, it is much easier to implement change gradually in one country at a time in comparison to trying to implement it all at once in one gigantic clusterfuck. Which is what would be needed within the continental US.
I really don't understand why most online transactions still use card number + CVV code instead of signing them with your card reader like you do when logging in on your bank's homepage. Is this America fucking with us again?
>The EU is not one gigantic country
So that makes chipped cards and transactions even harder to get working, anon.
> that all have to comply to eachothers standards.
That's likely more the case in the EU than in the USA between states.
> Even for a bank operating within all of EU, it is much easier to implement change gradually in one country at a time in comparison to trying to implement it all at once in one gigantic clusterfuck.
... and besides, we're talking about just a technical problem. A chip rather than a magnet strip, together with a bunch of well-known widely used protocols like EMV.
You don't have to solve it on your own even, you can just buy the devices and their software and roll them out. This is actually supposed to be ridiculously simple for a first world nation...
>So that makes chipped cards and transactions even harder to get working, anon.
A bank only needs to make them work one country at a time. With most countries and areas being smaller than a single US state.
All things infrastructure are infinitely more easy to solve on a smaller scale. This is how and why public transport in Europe is infinitely more viable than in the US
>That's likely more the case in the EU than in the USA between states.
That's not how that works. That's not how that works at all.
There's no border crossing between states, there's no real/huge overall governmental change, there's no infrastructure change. The way states work are wildly different than how countries within the EU operate.
It's also impossible to justify having a credit card system/infrastructure work properly in one state and not in a bordering state while is much more easily justified to have them not work properly in a neighboring country.
>... and besides, we're talking about just a technical problem. A chip rather than a magnet strip, together with a bunch of well-known widely used protocols like EMV.
Yes. Because you can just go "Hey, we're changing to this. You are required to have a new set of hardware in order to properly enact transactions within your establishment" and every store within the entire US will magically have it. Just absolutely magically.
Keep in mind, doing that isn't actually a location/store's problem. It's a banks problem. If they issue cards and a customer cannot use them at a location, the customer may end up just switching banks.
>This is actually supposed to be ridiculously simple for a first world nation...
Again, look at the scale.
You're asking why you can have a house cat perched up on your shoulder but not an entire tiger.
Nothing is that fucking simple.