>>50772644 >How do we fix Linux? Make it more user friendly. New users are the future of any OS afterall.
As a Mint user, I absolutely adore the distro for its easy install process (it could be even easier tho) and pre-loaded programs and codecs. It's how all linux distros should work imo. I mean, all users are gonna want to install codecs anyway, so why not include them by default? I guess some of the more common commands could use a GUI too. Like the swappiness thing, the firewall should have a GUI as well. The Num lock should just turn on automatically at system start, oh and those disks we have too should automount as well. I know these are minor annoyances but I can't really think of anything wrong with mint at the moment. They did a pretty swell job putting together that distro.
>>50774964 Can somebody explain to me why MINT is referred to as the easiest build to use? I don't frankly understand it.
I've used all the major DEs briefly and apart from Gnome and Unity, I don't really see the difference. They all function on a similar principle like windows 7. I'm not shit talking cinnamon or anything, just why is it always considered the easiest to understand?
>>50776742 Mainly because cinnamon is the DE that resembles windows the most. It's not considered "the easiest to use" but "the easiest to switch if you've never used nothing but windows your entire fucking life". Mint also is ubuntu based and thus has LTS release which is also a plus for someone not comfortable with using linux.
>>50772644 >Standardized customizable installation process of multiple versions of the same program. >Standardized multimedia platform allowing audio and graphic cooperation >Better drivers or more open source hardware
Everyone works on the same shit. Right now there are thousands of distros with 4 fat nerds working on each of them, and they're all unusable pieces of shit.
Get those fat nerds working on the same 3 distros and make them usable. They're not allowed to fork shit if they don't like the title bar color or the default terminal, that doesn't help anyone. If we could focus and combine the power of the freetards Linux could be good, but right now it's just about "muh personal project" instead of actually making something worth a shit.
Kernel >ditching the ancient filesystem hierarchy for good >for desktop usage, merge and improve BFS sheduler >merge a patch to ditching the swap default configuration (still stuck in 90's) >create a stable driver API >ditching the ancient console code and move it to userspace to take advantage of KMS, font rendering, etc. >improve message priority ("watchdog didn't stop" shit it's because a odd message priority) >better localization (even NT has his kernel messages translated)
Userspace >ditching package management. Ideally, using a software distribution model like Android or a way to install user applications like copy a .app folder >Ditching for all X11 in favor of Wayland compositors >Ditching GTK for QT or at least start to using only a one toolkit >improve laptop power management
Community >Convince Linus to stop being a fucking asshole without social skills (Or get him beaten) >ditching the RTFM mentality, that made sense in the 70's-80's. Now isn't
>>50772644 The users, notably large users, need to keep an eye open for what is in development. I have often seen problems that should have been caught a lot sooner but when they called me it was too late. Particularly thanks to these really long term distributions, CentOS is 7 years if I am not mistaken. The planning must be changed from the current "keep things running for as long as possible then upgrade everything" (usually tied to hardware renewal cycles) to a more inclusive one where someone keeps an eye on what is being developed and preferably test the changes for regressions.
I personally really like Gentoo in this regard, they are the prime example of stability coupled with rolling releases and testing (plus the ease to apply patches and manage dependencies).
Coding and IT school classes would help a lot in this regard I believe.
>>50777338 >ditching package management. Ideally, using a software distribution model like Android or a way to install user applications like copy a .app folder
And ever since when the use of package managers is mandatory? Not only you could yourself compile the code but many actually have binaries compiled for linux already available. The most common example I often see is the complaint that the current Firefox browser is too old and the new one is not available in the repository. However it is trivial to download the binaries straight from Mozilla and use them regardless, even nightly has native binaries.
PS.: Another myth is the need for a superuser to do everything, there is plenty leeway for a user to do things on his own within his account.
There needs to be one big distro that sets all the standards for using linux, so that normal people don't get confused trying to figure out which one to install, which app store to use, etc Unfortunately the closest thing we have to that is Ubuntu
udev D-Bus ConsoleKit polkit Avahi Akonadi systemd ALSA PulseAudio JACK System V's ugly bits and pieces X.org
Private namespaces A unified inferface that combines namespaces, the filesystem hierarchy, and the network hierarchy
Berkeley sockets (replace with something much more sensible and simpler to use, orchestrated with the interface above) TTY system (throw out the cruft, replace with a simple and robust driver for the inferface above) cgroups (functionality merges into the inferface above) Most runlevels Most signals
>>50777690 Filesystems usually have their own purposes, like F2FS that specializes in flash based storage devices. Btrfs itself is designed to incorporate into the filesystem lots of functionalities many will not need and would fare better with a less complex filesystem.
The main advantage of open source development is exactly the availability of custom solutions for each case instead of one catch all solution.
>>50777854 Btrfs incorporates into the filesystem itself a lot of things that should be in userspace (and are indeed, in other operating systems). It's a typical Red Hat Linux-ecosystem project, a half-considered reimplementation of things that exist, and poorly thought out.
The whole Red Hat/Freedesktop/kernel.org environment surrounding Linux seems to accrue the worst of design-by-committee. Open-source is not magic dust.
Also, there's no excuse for a damned filesystem to have been in development for over six years and still not recommended for production.
zsh is still has a lot of the strange syntax that bash has. Ideally, a new cleaner shell should be employed. One thats free from all the cruft, and the necessary design choices bash devs made to keep backwards compatibility. I think that something similar to Python or Ruby in shell form would be leagues better to script in, and a lot more powerful.
>>50777338 >Kernel >>ditching the ancient filesystem hierarchy for good in favor of what? If you mean the /usr/bin:/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbing thingy, that's userspace and somewhat ancient
>>for desktop usage, merge and improve BFS sheduler sheduler sheduler?
>>merge a patch to ditching the swap default configuration (still stuck in 90's) >>create a stable driver API >>ditching the ancient console code and move it to userspace to take advantage of KMS, font rendering, etc. think about when you need a console now think about what moving console code will do for you in these situations
>>improve message priority ("watchdog didn't stop" shit it's because a odd message priority) >>better localization (even NT has his kernel messages translated) this is useless anyone that wants to be proficient with computers has to know english and kernel messages aren't read by computer iliterates
>Userspace >>ditching package management. Ideally, using a software distribution model like Android or a way to install user applications like copy a .app folder lolno, package management is godlike appstores are kind of a package manager, but they do it steam-ish with everything included (or static linking) which has benefits but also downsides (100versions of dx9, yeah that's nice steam)
>>Ditching for all X11 in favor of Wayland compositors or rather "get wayland stable and usable"
>>Ditching GTK for QT or at least start to using only a one toolkit eh low priority
>>improve laptop power management there is still more to do in kernel for this userspace can be set up pretty well (I get more battery with linux than any other setup I had)
>Community >>Convince Linus to stop being a fucking asshole without social skills (Or get him beaten) Try working with hundreds of idiots, that aren't filtered for you being an "asshole" is just a way to be direct and not be misunderstood
>>ditching the RTFM mentality, that made sense in the 70's-80's. Now isn't turn it down to 80%, not ditch it
>>50778236 >Hi Sarah I think most people would rather keep the drama out of Linux.If that means Linus has to tone it down, so be it. I mean, look around, Google/Android, Microsoft, Apple, hell even the small time organizations these days are being puppeted by special interest groups.These groups won't be going anywhere soon, they'll have to shoot themselves in the foot to be silenced.The best course of action is to ignore the trouble makers.Giving them attention of any kind empowers them and they know it. Keep personal politics out of computing.
>>50778227 systemd is not something which requires an alternative.
>>50778148 Tom Duff already wrote a replacement for the Bourne shell named rc. It's familiar to anyone who knows C (rather than Algol).
I don't know why people keep coming up with variations on the Bourne shell claiming to fix all the ills of Bash when we already have something that fits cleanly into the Unix-like environment. Also, things like colours are not the domain of the shell but of the terminal.
Terminal emulators need to go as well. You only have use for one straightforward software tty, and a userspace GUI rendering of the text on it. There is no good reason for xterm to be over 64,000 lines of code so it can pretend to be a range of 1970s teletype printers. There is also no reason for there to be a virtual TTY API/subsystem/layer/whatever-they-call-it-nowadays in Linux; just open /dev/ttyN and write your ordinary unremarkable bytes to it.
>>50778367 >in favor of what? I think he means adopt something like /Programs, /Libraries, etc., which I don't think is a good idea.
I'd like to see /usr go back to its original meaning (user directories) and I'd like to see /lib go back to its original meaning (roughly that of /etc and /usr/share combined) but it will never happen because of glibc's massive idiotic push for dynamic linking.
>>50778534 >I think people getting butthurt and leaving keeps the drama out. In a way, I see your point. However, there seems to be a focused effort by certain media groups to bring these petty gripes into the spotlight.When a thousand neckbeards hit the comments section of a news article with "misogynist" responses, it only proves the point to outsiders. A better response to this sort of journalism would be calling the writer out for publishing click-bait trash and leave it at that.
>>50778727 I think that if they do end up pressuring people into being inclusive and turn contribution to Linux into a right rather than a privilege, the integrity of the entire project will suffer, coordination, communication, actual useful commits, everything. I don't think being polite and avoiding harming peoples feelings has any place in a purely academic effort.
>>50777338 >>better localization (even NT has his kernel messages translated) Tad to late but this is one fucking retarded of an idea and I'm not an english speaker. Localisation of everything but the most basic user interface is what makes fixing bonked windows such pain in the ass.
Overall it doesn't matter whether or not it's a "Kernel" issue. It's an issue that affects Linux and it's usability as a whole. Wireless has become ubiquitous these days, and AC brings very tangible speed benefits to wireless. Just one more reason I run Linux as a server OS or in VM and not on my main machine.
>>50779074 I imagine it would be straightforward if strings were ONLY utf-8 (Linux is practically there by now) and translation happened through a single tr(fmt) function inside programs themselves, which takes a format string, looks through a hash table, and returns that format string translated as appropriate for the target language. Corner case language can just deal with getting the equivalent of '"%d bad"'.
Prediction: in a few years Linux is going to split into Red Hat-GNOME and Android OSes, with maybe a straggler or two continuing to backport security fixes to the last version of Debian before the singularity consumed all non-RH distros.
>>50781244 And some future post on Lennart's blog about "the toxic behavior of Linus and other maintainers towards minority contributors" will be the first shot. It will be used as an excuse by Red Hat to fork the kernel. Red Hat's crap like kdbus will be immediately shoved in.
>>50781244 Prediction: We will make the socialist revolution and Debian will be the only needed operating system with all the apps from all enterprises (Micro$oft, Adobe, Apple) running, because everything will be ported to Linux by the works controlling the enterprises.
>>50783214 It can't Most of the system in under the GPL license, which forbids you to relicense under any other license. They would a need a replacement for pretty much anything from the kernel to the coreutils, mesa, xorg, even freaking systemd. it won't be noobuntu anymore.
>>50783214 >It needs corporate support First of all...Linux is a fucking kernel not an operating system. Secondly: Apple is what happens when what you suggest comes to reality. We already have one shit-tier company doing what you want to do, and look how awful it is.
Fuck anyone who can't figure out how to use Linux. I like Linux being the way it is - it keeps the dumbest shitheads from influencing the distros I use. The internet used to be so much nicer before every little shit with less than half a brain had a computer. Oh fuck I miss those days.
>>50783443 Many distros are for user and any user can use without command line, I guess you misunderstood the problem of Linux in Desktop, which is the applications environment, Adobe dont make a Photoshop for Linux, and no one use Libreoffice in a enterprise.
>>50773121 This. XOrg has some great APIs, but way too many window properties, and extension hacks. Wayland also blows pretty hard. If you've tried the Wayland back end for GTK+, you'll see what I mean. KWin Wayland will understand X window position hints, so that might be our greatest hope.
>>50774964 Codecs should be installed, IMO. Only remove them if patents become an issue, or automatically download and compile (required for some codecs, cannot be distributed in binary form, US patent law) after installation. It's a problem specific to US patent law, and many distros aren't even managed by an organization with legal presence in the US.
>>50776721 You have a point. But them having users means they can get away with it more. Our community is not that bad, and is really friendly to newcomers, but only newcomers. /g/ isn't really an accurate representation of the community as a whole.
Mint and Ubuntu are to this generation of Linux users what Mandrake/Mandriva was to mine. Easy to get up and running, "it just works" as much as was possible back then, codecs included (mp3 support was NEVER dropped in the default install, they always just worked).
>>50777158 I feel like making the constant Ubuntu/Debian forks should just contribute to Debian, or make a worthwhile change in their distro. It should be like BSD, only fork if you are willing to maintain. Manjaro does a good job at doing this, and even Antergos fills a niche. But Wattos? (Insert obscure distro here) No. It might be easier if there were "Spins" of, say, Debian that used the package base, but were different in many ways. These pseudo distros could have their changes and configs sent to the main distro if they are good.
>>50777338 Package management is great, but hard to get right. Ideally, we could have a package that basically asks for a .h file to be linked with, and the distro provides it, with the optimum version requested.
>>50777437 Not using Systems is not necessarily using the clusterfuck that is SysVinit. There are pretty awesome init systems that solved all the problems of systems, long before it. IE: Upstart, runit, OpenRC. Busybox also has a nice init, and daemontools.
>>50783893 >pretty awesome init systems that solved all the problems >Upstart Lol. This ``I'm not pro-systemd, I'm just anti-sysvinit'' that systemd shills have been trying to pull off recently would be a lot more convincing if they actually knew anything about what sysvinit fucking does.
>>50778152 Or maybe X without a dozen extensions, rewritten, and native frame buffer and vsync support. Less IPC needed to talk to X. X even implements its own IPC mechanism, and shitty rendering API and driver model. But the protocol has a ton of good parts.
>>50783833 I found it hard to configure, and hard to manage services. But its not really that bad. I think systemd is better, but people act like it is "the future" like Wayland, but really its just an Upstart clone that uses more complex service files, binary logging, and 300 (yes, 300) DBus APIs. And DBus is awkward and awful.
Better UI scaling that is universal (GTK+ 2 & 3, At 4 & 5, EFL, and X rendering), XDPi comes kind of close. That's all I want. Also, less setuid binaries downloaded from a package manager that has to be run as root.
>>50784205 But it's better than all the vaporware distros around. And it is actually usable. They also maintain a lot of OpenRC scripts. And (decent, at least the KDE ones) themes, and an installer (which is okay). Not bad.
>>50772644 What needs fixing? Documentation. There needs to be a start to finish logical path guide written for every distro by those who develop it, with a how to guide for the mainstream devices such as wireless driver(both Ethernet and Bluetooth for example). Fully hatch things out and make videos while doing it. Take feedback from users regularly and stream it. Request a twitch directory for IT and we could stream Dev sessions. I'd subscribe to a channel there and chat with users. It's time to evolve and embrace that we can create a platform for anything from our own free platform. That's what we are all about; I love the ingenuity of the community, not its close mindedness. If we embraced those who wanted to put a 'Linux on the moon' then we would have user friendly Linux on more platforms and better support today.
>>50778523 I'm not taking about the shell. I'm talking about the code who emulates a VT. It's old, dusty, unmaintained who makes difficult things like multiseat. Or simply ditch the fucking old terminal logic. That's doesn't mean that we will force a mandatory GUI, but more a thing like Plan9 does with his console.
It needs to destroy the gaming monopoly that Windows has. Mantle or whatever needs to replace DX for the stranglehold to finally be broken. Also, it needs backwards compatibility with windows apps. I don't know what the state of WINE is these days, but it probably needs to improve in ease-of-use and performance.
These two things will finally lead to the fabled "year of the linux desktop" and subsequent destruction of Windows OS monopolization. The increased user adoption rate and app support will make Linux "practical" for the common man, in effect "fixing it" in that regard.
Probably gonna get shitted on for this, but I've spent the past 2 weeks looking for a good system to use primarily for design; I need programs good for stage plots, and there's barely anything helpful that I've found to help me find a program to use/distro geared for designers. If any of you guys knows where I can start, that would be greatly appreciated.
>>50777338 Swap is useful. >Ditch package management Nigger package managers are amazing and easy enough for normies to use. X11 will be replaced once wayland is actually stable enough. A single toolkit will just mean that another standard exists. Which means you will have GTK, Qt and the other one.
>>50778183 What's the trouble of "apt-get install program" or "dnf install program"? How is that not easier than what Windows has going?
>>50777338 >ditching package management. Ideally, using a software distribution model like Android or a way to install user applications like copy a .app folder *buntu and Fedora both have a software center.
>>50776620 >Use Windows >LAAHMAO U STILL USE WINDOWS ENJOY UR BOTNET
>Use Ubuntu >LOL FUCKING N00BUNTU GO BACK TO WINDOWS FAGGOT
>Use Arch >Something breaks (very common) >Go to Arch forum for help >REED THE WIKI U FAGGOT EVERY SINGLE WORD AND EVERY OUTGOING LINK >Read wiki, it's outdated or doesn't have solution >USE SERCH U DUMB SHIT >Nothing on search or solution doesn't work >FIX IT URSELF BY RECODING EVERYTHING OR GO BACK TO N00BUNTU LOL LOOK AT THIS GUY
>>50772644 Someone throws a lot of money of porting absolutely everything to a consistent UI built on Wayland and Qt5. Someone throws a lot of money making all of those apps directly interface with JACK. Someone throws a lot of money writing native device drivers for JACK.
In other words, a lot of money to un-fragment the ecosystem with the best solutions available.
>>50787901 >What's the trouble of "apt-get install program" or "dnf install program"? This guy never had to install stupid program A depending on libfoo_v1.1 and stupid program B depending on libfoo_v2.4. >ayylmao
>>50783649 >Fuck anyone who can't figure out how to use Linux. I like Linux being the way it is - it keeps the dumbest shitheads from influencing the distros I use. Fair enough. Just don't complain when Linux stays at 1% marketshare forever :^) >b-but muh servers!
>>50776620 The Linux community seriously believes that GUI's are bloat and that EVERYONE should use the CLI for EVERYTHING. Also, zealotry and almost religious fanaticism (especially if we are talking about the FSF).
Fix the archaic filesystem (like GoboLinux). It's too much of a pain in the ass to have to look in 3 or 4 different locations where something could reside since all of the packages in the repo install their binaries and configs in different locations
- Remove the babby neckbeards that haven't contributed a single line of code in their lives or admin any sizeable server and yet consider themselves experts (Arch users mostly) - Remove Lennart - Let based Canonical take over
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