>>12986 >Western civilization traces its roots back to Europe and the Mediterranean. It is linked to the former Western Roman Empire and with Medieval Western Christendom who emerged from feudalism to experience such transformative historical episodes as the Renaissance, the Reformation, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution and the development of liberal democracy.
Yes, and the Romans who took it to new lengths and heights, the HRE then picked it up, and it stayed in Europe until planting the seed in other colonies from which one, the North American colonies did it sprout and grow to become the greatest western civilized country on this good Earth- the United States of America, descendent of Rome itself, the apex of western civilization.
Greeks weren't Western, they were part of a Mediterranean civilization.
Western civilization as we know it, with Northwestern Europe at it's core, began only after the Muslim conquests tore the Mediterranean world in half. Without access to the population centers of the Eastern mediterranean, the West had to reorient itself. If I had to pinpoint a moment, I'd say the Donation of Pepin is the moment when Western civilization as we know it truly began. That's the moment where the Papacy ceases it's allegiance to Constantinople and seek protection from the Franks of Gaul, creating a new North-South axis around which Christianity would further eastwards. Pic related, the spread of Christianity until that moment was limited to the former Roman Empire and Mediterranean world (with the notable exception of Ireland). After the Donation of Pepin, and specially under Charlemagne, Christianity expands eastwards and Europe is born with the Mediterranean not as a heard but as a southern border.
>>13380 Well at least you tried to a serious argument instead of yelling about "muh Thule" and "muh Aryans" like most of the /pol/acks who want to rewrite history, but Romans and Greeks are the origins of western civilization.
>>12986 Western Civilization is synonymous with the White Aryan race, which spawned aeons ago from northernmost hyperborea and gave rise to all human achievement. Check out book in pic related for the truth about the divine/extraterrestrial origins of the Aryan race >http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/L/La/Lanz_Adolf-Joseph_-_Theozoology.pdf
>>13842 This is why the Minoans are the true source of western civilization. They synthesized the cultures of Egypt and Phoenicia with the native Mycenaean culture. Minoan civilization is objectively the origin place of the west.
A lot of Greek philosophers and mathematicians such as Anaximander actually went to Persia to get educated. If you read Xenophon's works, then you'd see a lot of Greeks went to Persia to get educated and such. Persians were very progressive and such, but we lost most of that when Alexander burned Persepolis' library. Granted, from looking at Greek sources, you can make the inferences that both Greeks and Persians contributed a lot.
>>13380 Absolutely this. Talking about Greece being part of the West is like calling Assyria Islamic. The West is derived from Greece, but Greece was not a part of it.
Here's how I think of it: Egypt and Mesopotamia created West Eurasian civilization (needs a better name). West Eurasian civilization spread into other areas like India and the Mediterranean, where civilization became differentiated to the point that we get two new ones, Indian and Classical civilizations.
Classical civilization is born of the Greeks with Phoenician influence, and then spread throughout the Mediterranean and supersedes Egyptian/Mesopotamian civilizations with Alexander. Classical civilization flourishes under Greece and Rome, and to a lesser extent Persia (though Persia becomes more differentiated under the Sassanids).
When Rome declines, Classical civilization diversifies into three new civilizations, the West, Orthodoxy, and Islam. Each of them is equally a successor to the Classical world, though there are also new influences like Sassanid influence on Islam and Germanic influence on the West.
Treating Greece and medieval Europe as if they were the same thing, somehow excluding Byzantium and Islam, just makes no sense. You might as well say that Egypt is Western too.
>>13995 Solid point, but that argument basically says that the period of Greek history prior to the rise of the Persian Empire is irrelevant, and I don't agree.
If we're talking where the concept of urban civilization came from then it is the Sumerians and Egyptians no question, but the distinct features of western civilization came from the Minoans and, later on, the Achaemenid Persians.
>>14042 No, because the Middle East is just a geographic region, while the West is a civilization with a common culture and development.
The Greeks are the source of Western civilization, but they're also the source of Islamic and Orthodox civilization, and the Greeks themselves developed from Mesopotamian/Egyptian civilization. Taking the Greeks and calling them Western is as arbitrary as taking any other group and calling them a part of any group that developed out of them. You could say that Sumeria is Orthodox or Egypt is Islamic and it would basically be the same thing. There's no reason to take the Greeks, the Romans, and Gothic Europe and put them in one group that excludes everyone else. It makes no sense, it's just an idea that's ingrained in our minds to the point that we don't question it.
>>14209 And here I thought the dumbest thing I heard today would come from a /pol/ poster and not someone who's serious.
You can say that western civilization came from Sumeria and you'd probably be right.
A solid argument could also be made for the Sumerians being the source of Indus Valley and Egyptian civilization,
But believing that Mesopotamia is the source of Chinese and Mesoamerican civilization is absolutely retarded. That is /pol/ tier revisionism that sounds like something an Iraqi version of Hitler would come up with.
>>14431 >But 'The West' is just another geographic term as well No it's not. When people talk about the West, they're talking about a civilization, specifically that of Catholic/Protestant Europe and its colonies. It's about culture and institutions, not any kind of geographic boundary. The Middle East, on the other hand, is a geographic region. Sure, you can use it in a cultural sense, but when you use it in that sense it would never include Assyria.
>>13712 No, they were a Mediterranean civilization, like the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Syriacs etc.
I don't know why my post caused such a negative reaction. Do you think I'm some white nationalist? I'm basically just retelling the Pirenne thesis. It is discredited among most professional historians, but I'm still cling to it.
>>14570 >but when you use it in that sense it would never include Assyria. Why not? There are Assyrians there right now.
I've never seen anyone not count Ancient Greece as part of Western Civilization. I think you're confusing it with the more modern political phrase 'The West' that split off from Western Civ just recently.
Whenever Catholic/Protestant Europe is mentioned, it's usually as Western Europe and not the West until the Cold War.
>>12699 The separation between western and eastern is illogic. There are blue eyed blonde nordics in the middle east and asia, in Pakistan and Afghanistan there are still populations of Aryans with surviving nordic traits.
What you refer by western civilization I consider Aryan civilization, anything that came from the Aryans, following this logic, no it didn't, it started with the Vedic civilization in North India, they were the first big civilization created by the Aryans after their invasion of Eurasia. Astronomy, Mathematics, philosophy, the modern form of all these subjects we consider to be typical from the greek civilization were first developed by the Vedas, later the Greeks developed them even more. The Persians are also Aryans so anything they co-developed with the aforementioned civilizations also comes from the Aryans.
>>14763 >Why not? There are Assyrians there right now I mean ancient Assyria. 'Middle East' used in a geographic sense includes them, but in a cultural sense, which is synonymous with Islam, you can't because they were not Isalmic. My whole point is that talking about the West in ancient Greece is as anachronistic as talking about Islamic civilization in Assyria.
This has nothing to do with Cold War stuff. What I'm saying is that Catholic/Protestant Europe is itself a distinct civilization, which was born only after the fall of Rome, and which we today call the 'West'. Orthodox Europe is (or at least was) a separate civilization, as is the Islamic world. All three come from the Classical world, but the Classical world was not a part of either of them.
You could use the term 'West' differently, and say that every civilization derived from Greece is Western, but then you'd need to include Islam too which isn't what people generally have in mind as 'Western'.
Regardless of which way you use 'West', there is no justification for saying that Greece, Rome, and Catholic/Protestant Europe are one group that excludes Islam and Orthodoxy.
>>15104 Common language comes from common genealogy/lineage. All Aryans languages come from Proto-indo-european, because they descend from the same ancestors. The Aryans, or Indo-Europeans, as you prefer to call it, are a meta-ethnicity. The term "meta" because it's very broad and extends all accross Eurasia.
West & East European civilization derive from the Western and Eastern halves of the former Roman Empire respectively. Prior to that it was all Roman, which had roots in Greece and Egypt. So, while Greece and Greeks have had influence on Western ways, Greece is still East European.
What do you even mean with that? what does genetic mixing between two different populations have to do with their origin? I'm talking about the same genetic origin, a population that multiplied and originated other populations in new lands. Having the same ancestor means you have the same origin. The anthropological concept of Ethnicity is: Race (genealogy) + Culture.
What's western civilization? If it's the Hellenistic cultural sphere you have to count the rest of the middle east, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
If it's the part of the Roman Empire that stayed Christian, or the Western Roman Empire, or the areas of Carolingian influence, then you don't really get to claim Greece as an origin because it's a silly place to draw the line.
>>12699 as a distinct entity it does obviously it has roots in the Near-East, Egypt and Minos, but none of those were uniquely European save for maybe the Minoans but the Greeks revolutionized everything here and made Europe a separate cultural entity.
>>15955 It's not a shitpost. I listed Indus Valley because in the spur of the moment it seems like something that someone could find a halfway legitimate source for, but I don't believe that Mesopotamia had anything to do with Indus Valley civilization.
I can't offer a solid argument in favor of the view so I concede.
>>16168 Aryans allegedly spread their culture, technology and things like chariots into Europe. Im also pretty sure that it's proven that genetically the people living in Europe currently are most closely related to those that lived there in prehistory.
>>16127 Possible I guess but I don't know. Most evidence points to the Indus Valley developing agriculture independently of Mesopotamia. Do some research on it anon, many of us would be interested in what sources you find.
>>16171 Yeah I figured there wasn't. I want to keep discussion on this board as civil as possible for as long as possible.
>>16416 I never claimed that I was a different poster lol. So essentially all you have done is ad hominem, baseless assertions that are blatantly false and accused me of samefagging whilst actually samefagging.
Basque has no connection whatsoever with proto-indoeuropean besides that which was introduced to it long after it formed as a distinct langauge.
Calling basque an indo-european language is the most laughably retarded thing I've ever heard in my life. The reason it is so interesting is that it is one of the few langauges native to Europe that isn't.
>>16168 What the fuck? where did you take that from? the original Aryans were tall, blonde nordics, it's a historical fact. I can show you anthropologic resources proving that.
The term Aryan means noble or high in Sanskrit, the oldest know indo-european language and alphabet, it's how the Arayns in India used to describe themselves and their own culture, the Iran and Ireland also come from this same proto-indo-european etymologic root. When the Aryans conquered India they considered their military and social superiority to be based on the fairness of their traits, how Indra crushed the primitive and inferior foes, it's written in the very RigVeda, how they considered the negroid-australoid populations (dravidian) of southern india to be inferior because of their dark complexions, that's why they created the castes, a system of segregation to prevent mixing between the superior brahmas and the inferior sudras.
Watch this video if you don't believe me, Srila Prabhupada is one of the biggest authorities in vedic brahmanism of the 20th century, if your racism and prejudice against white people will prevent you from listening to a white man, listen to a Indian brahmani himself.
>>16515 I was actually referring to the rest of Europeans saying that while yes, their languages are descended from an indo-european common ancestor they remain genetically distinct and are still very much related to the peoples that lived in Europe in prehistory.
>>16602 >this entire post. you do realize that the Sanskrit term Aryan refers to the subcontinent as a whole, and Aryavarta is pretty much the indian subcontinent known by the alternate name of Jambudwipa, aka land of the indian blackberry? >>16716 thanks history channel
>>16269 Not allegadly, it's proven by archaeology. The people that lived in Europe were pre-indo-european (not Aryans), the nordic traits were brought to Europe with the Aryans, after the Aryan invasion of Europe they introduced these technologies, crop techniques and animal husbandry, horse riding and chariots, metal weapons... the pre-indo-european populations were mostly hunter-gatherers and they had an animist form of shamanism that worshipped Earth, the Arayns introduced the panthons of gods with human traits, all the branches of the indo-european culture have the same pantheon with minor regional differences, for example, Zeus (and Jupiter), Odin, Dagda, Perun, Brahma... are different versions of the same God, coming from the proto-indo-european pantheon.
Many of their ideas were passed on, so it's fair to say that they did heavily influence it's creation. If those ideas were not passed on, Western Civilization would be different, but there's no saying as to if it would be totally gone.
Not always and definitely not entirely. I've read numerous historians who believe that indo-european was learned for trade purposes and even so, often when peoples are conquered they adopt the language and culture of their rulers yet remain true to their genetic roots such as contemporary Anatolia which is genetically very much still Greek.
>>16510 Argument started with his mesopotamia quote and then he actually apologized for using it broadly. He was talking about anthropologic roots, not historical. Not even him, but i don't know what are you actually trying to prove in here.
>>16934 I think it has parellels with latins influence in Europe, influencing many languages yet long after the western Roman empire fell the Lombards, Franks, Iberians and Thracians remained albeit with a different language and culture.
>>16951 >but they came from the same place, Mesopotamia
By "coming from the same place" do you only understand civilisation? Are you really that dumb? He also said "I was talking in broader terms. Sorry for misunderstatement."after that. Seriously, you guys were arguing for literally nothing.
>>17582 There is no cherry picking, he doubled down. Those two peoples had nothing to do with each other directly or indirectly both temporally and geographically and to claim otherwise is absolute idiocy.
>>16851 We have some remnants. The oldest works of art (so to speak) we have depict animals and humans (interestingly the depictions of the sun and the stars are much less old). Anon's post was highly conjectural still.
>>18093 Is it a reference to out of Africa? Sure, we all came from the same place but the Mesoamericans peoples were long since separated from Messopotamians and any stories or shared history would have long since been rewritten due to the limitations of an oral history.
Similarly there was a lot of variation between the religions and cultures of the Americas like totemist, animist religions and established empires/regional hegemons versus nomadic peoples.
Anyway I'd say that Western/European civilization emerges after the fall of the Roman Empire, with the Franks/Catholics and Byzantines/Orthodox which are inexorably linked but also distinct. Potentially you could include a sort of North Sea/Baltic alignment which would be the stronghold of Protestantism later on. Intellectually, ancient Greece and ancient Rome are the predecessors but I don't know that once can say that they are one and the same as Western/European civilization.
>>16660 >Proving my point with brainless reply Typical.
>>16777 Obviously I know what Aryavarta is. The Aryan homeland has been placed by anthropologists in the asian russian steppes, around what's today Kazakhstan, near the Aral sea, from there they invaded India, Europe and the Middle east, and in India they developed the Vedic civilization. The term Arya was used not only by the vedas but throughout all the Aryan territories, as I sai the country name Iran and Ireland also come from the word Arya. Again, read the Kurgan hypothesisi, it's the most widely accept theory about the origin of the indo-european meta-ethnicity and the civilizations of the Indus velley.
I'm done replying in this thread, since this is 4chan I'll only get troll replies from frustrated idiots without arguments that can't accept facts, like the first guy I'm replying to in this post. I have debated this topic with many people, I've answered a guy extensively on my Youtube channel about this topic, everything about the Aryan origin I explained there.
>>12699 What is "Western Civilization"? Because I 'm pretty sure that the Greeks were feeling much closer to, say, the Levant than to Western Europe; and the Westerners weren't associating themselves with the Greeks up until like after the first millenium.
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