No, it's not. Jews were drawn to communism for the same reasons Georgians (like Stalin) and other minorities were; it promised them a future where nationality was no barrier and everyone was equal. Didn't keep that promise because vanguardism a shit and Stalin ruined everything.
>Many Jews were prominent in Russian revolutionary parties. The idea of overthrowing the Tsarist regime was attractive to many members of the Jewish intelligentsia because of the oppression of non-Russian nations and non-Orthodox Christians within the Russian Empire. For much the same reason, many non-Russians, notably Latvians or Poles, were disproportionately represented in the party leaderships.
for more background scroll up and read about the pogroms / expulsions / encouraged mass emigration etc by the tsar
My personal beliefs (inb4 /pol/) are along Kevin McDonald's, i.e. that Jews - as a perpetual minority - are attracted to extremist movements because they serve to dull the opposition of the majority against them
>>19934 >that Jews - as a perpetual minority - are attracted to extremist movements because they serve to dull the opposition of the majority against them This usually stems from them not being equal citizens, for example after ww2 the government of south Africa made Jews equal citizens and apologized for not taking Jewish refugees from the holocaust. After which the vast majority of Jews did not oppose apartheid, due them having being made part of the majority. Although some the most prominent anti-apartheid activists were Jewish.
I'd say Orthodoxism and Tsarism together pre-adapted Russian to communism. One Tsar, One Church, One People pretty easily became One Leader, One Party, One People.
Rigid centralized communism was a much better fit to countries with a centralizing and authoritarian monarchical tradition, not just in Europe but in Asia as well. In more pluralistic countries with less ingrained deference to the centre (e.g. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Yemen) it didn't go down so well (and either adapted accordingly or fell apart quickly).
>>20179 Since when were the Jews a theistic group and not an ethnic group who shared a theistic history? If anything the most prominent atheists of the last century were Jews, Marx himself was an ardent atheist.
>>20068 You could also say they were trying to create nationalism, destroying old ethnic and religious ties and building up ones based on what nation one lived in and what political ideologies one followed.
>>18895 A vast majority of early Red party chairs were of Jewish (ethnic and religious) stock, particularly in important positions like war and commerce relative to agriculture and education which were ethnic Russians.
A big part of the animus against the Czar stems from his arguably anti-Semitic sentiments.
Shortly after the coup Jewish/Hebrew schools were (re)opened in the region, that had been suppressed before under Nicholas and predecessors.
US diplomatic cables regarding the revolution expressed heavy Jewish representation.
>>20547 I know. Or the double standard of being able to blame the Germans for WW1, or the English for Colonialism, but if you blame Jews for Bolshevism you're an antisemite. It makes no sense that a people would work so hard to scrub out any self-critique or self-evaluation.
>>20921 What trolls anon? All I read here are people discussing the historical ethnic origins of a major political movement, how is that in any form or fashion trolling? If anything you appear to be inciting some sort of argument that steers from the discussion at hand, as if you were the agitating troll.
>>20205 >I'd say Orthodoxism and Tsarism together pre-adapted Russian to communism
But by the time of the Revolution whatever faith/respect that the Russian people had in the Tsar had gone, best demonstrated by the absence of any real resistance to his overthrow in the February Revolution
From what little reading of done (t. armchair historian) on the Civil War, a considerable problem was that industrial Russia didn't have sufficiently powerful/influential trade unions with which to funnel discontent with society (something like ~70% of St. Petersberg factory workers had been born in the countryside), so Russians chose revolution over reform
>>21146 But there had been attempts at reform before 1917 and the Revolution. It was just that those attempts at reform were met with repression (see what happened in 1905). There were even attempts made by Tzarist officials during the war to try and reform things, and those fell through as well.
The problem ultimately was that the Tzar and the people had drifted too far apart, with the result being that when push came to shove, the people and their revolutionary leaders were willing to take the hard-line, rather than conciliatory stance that might've happened.
>>21186 What I meant was that I can't decide if it's ironic that the government suppressing Jews led to Jews banding together to stamp out the government or if it's just amusing. On the one hand, if the government had suppressed them even harder then they might not have been around to rabblerouse in the first place but on the other hand if they weren't suppressed to the degree that they were, they may well never have bothered rising up.
>>21339 Ah my apologies, there are a lot of hugboxers flood /his/ who can't seem to handle controversial topics without getting triggered and slinging shit so I'm on guard such posters.
Well, there is also Poland to consider. Poland had a substantial Jewish population that weren't as much of a fan of Nick and the family as he was of them.
There was some agitation for Polish independence by individuals of Jewish descent (among others, of course) and that led to part of their excessive targeting by pogroms, to ensure Poland stayed in the fold.
>>21274 Had he actually provided a counter argument, even a "I disagree and think you are wrong", I would have been fine with that, but this childish temper tantrum is just what this board does not need.
>>21491 Agreed friend, my greatest fear is that this will basically become a subreddit where no hurt feelings are allowed, whereas a board anonymously discussing history with freedom of expression is achingly needed on the internet.
I'm doing a history project on the topic actually so I have some info. Mostly it was a role in getting people most oppressed by the Tsardom into the Bolsheviks. That's why many Jews were drawn into liberal and socialist circles in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, as the ideas of these groups let Jews into the Greater Russian nationality, whereas the Tsardom distinctly separated Jewish Russians from Orthodox Russians in treatment. Many atheist Jews identified strongly with the Russian nationality and considered themselves more Russian then Jewish. However ironically those Jews who joined the Bolsheviks and wanted to promote rights for Jews inspired greater anti-semitism among the Russian populace, fearing a Jewish takeover, leading for them to be maligned after Lenin's death and Stalin's take over. Lazar Kaganovich was the only major Jews left in Stalin's government up to WW2.
Even then however, some non-left Jews did not want to revolt and still thought of themselves as loyal subjects. Particular the Orthodox Jews, who were pro-monarchist and attempted to reconcile with the government before WWI, but an official reconciliation with the government failed partly due to the assassination of one official who fancied the idea.
Budnitskii, Oleg. 2008. The Jews and revolution: Russian perspectives, 1881-1918. East European Jewish Affairs 38 (3): 321-34.
Levin, Vladimir. 2009. Orthodox Jewry and the Russian government: An attempt at rapprochement, 1907-1914. East European Jewish Affairs 39 (2): 187-204.
>>21619 >That's why many Jews were drawn into liberal and socialist circles in the late 19th and early 20th centuries
I like your posts but I feel like you are putting the cart before the horse here and placing Russian antisemitism as the driving force behind the Jewish involvement in Bolshevism, I read Lenin's biography and Trotsky and himself grew up in well off homes that never experienced antisemitism, in fact when they were sent to the gulags, which were essentially isolated towns, they weren't mistreated even then.
>>21803 He was! >>21814 Night Just wanted to say this, had the Bolshevik Revolution never happened the reforms would have continued culminating in stable, modern Russia with a parliamentary system akin to what the UK has.
>>21900 I'm personally dismayed by how the Bolshevik/communist experiment turned out for what was one of the leading European nations of the time, but it hard to say how history would have been different otherwise.
I'm a guy who's very keen on sources and using evidence so I share the sentiment, but being honest, even in my best dreams of /his/ when I didn't even think it would happen, I knew that would never really be a popular thing here. Mostly because of effort, I mean most sources I see today are wikipedia, and that's fine for a casual space like 4chan and all. But the board is already having a crisis of identity I think in just how serious it wants to be, and forming an identity in general distinct from /pol/, /int/, and the rest of the site in general. So while I would appreciate sources being more standard and all, I think it's something we'll have to take as being nice to see when they show up, but not expected.
I don't know much about Stalin's personality, but from my understanding he was very devout to purging the 'Old Guard' as it were when it came to the old Bolsheviks who perhaps had as much legitimacy as him as a hero of the revolution. I don't think he really cared about Jews one way or the other, it's just his Jewish targets were easy to get rid of because they were that.
When you try and understand Russian pogroms, the thing you see in a lot of them is just how random they can be. They can be spurning by the landowners, but from my understanding they're mostly peasant affairs that authorities don't intervene in. I haven't done any heavy reading on the topic yet so I don't have sources, but a lot of the major pogroms in places like Odessa were heavily done by the peasantry.
That's a fair point anon, and I should correct myself in saying it would only be for some Jews. I have not done much reading on Lenin's pre-war life so I won't talk about him, but most Jews in Russia, even if they weren't constantly despised, were probably irked at still being seen as 'the other' constantly. So it's only logical they were more likely to join an anti-government revolution that espoused equality for them because of it.
You'll have people who condemn anyone with a drop of Jewish blood as part of a ethnonationalist conspiracy and you'll have people who refuse to acknowledge actors may have been colored by their fully Jewish heritage.
>>22072 >You'll have people who condemn anyone with a drop of Jewish blood as part of a ethnonationalist conspiracy and you'll have people who refuse to acknowledge actors may have been colored by their fully Jewish heritage.
I'm aware of how much even one Jewish parent can influence people (see: every half-Jewish celebrity ever), or how a Jewish grandparent can make someone sympathetic to Judaism - but these stormfags are silly thinking that discovering some famous person had a Jewish great-great-grandparent is some kinda GOTCHA moment for proving that they're also in on the plans of the Elders of Zion
I suppose as rudimentary as it may be the Animal Farm rhetoric is appropriate in the first order trumpeting the narrative and the second heralding the despot and Stalin's purge was fitting with the latter to remove the former.
And regarding the citations, I unfortunately see it ending up as only a novelty. It'd be too hard to enforce and there seems to be a campaign between /pol/acks and their detractors for who can shitpost the most loudly to control board culture.
>>22000 >but it hard to say how history would have been different otherwise.
International communism probably would have died in-utero, for one. The Bolsheviks and their successors propped up Marxist governments for 70+ years.
>>22069 >but most Jews in Russia, even if they weren't constantly despised, were probably irked at still being seen as 'the other' constantly. Probably because throughout their entire history, Jews tend to move into a country, go to great pains for _centuries_ to avoid assimilation and then resent being treated as outsiders. I don't know if it's more religious or more cultural but it's been a pattern repeated throughout virtually all of Jewish history to such an extent that you're almost compelled to start wondering if it's emergent behavior or not.
>>22155 I will say stormers visceral cream themselves reaction to 'spotting the Jew' or whatever is in part born from the fact that Jewish folks seem to shirk at the idea of being a topic of discussion due to their history of being targeted for various reasons as ethnic minorities, warranted or not.
Then again, as a person of questionable Jewish heritage who was attempted to be 'named' by my German teacher, it does feel bad man when idiots try to glom on to identity politics for kicks.
>>22228 >International communism probably would have died in-utero, for one.
Yes as we know it but no for its entirety.
I feel the world was due coming out of the feudal age and hurdling into the industrial to try some sort of collectivist rhetoric somewhere and it would have been difficult to image a world where some influential state didn't give it a go.
>And regarding the citations, I unfortunately see it ending up as only a novelty.
Yep, and even with my post I only even posted because I already had the research. For most people digging through scholarly sources just to respond to someone on this board, who will most likely respond with 'baka desu cum senpai' is too much effort. And really I can't blame them.
The current shitposting war was to be expected though, and it'll really only die as people stop caring or one side 'wins.' So it's just a matter of time really, got some nice threads in the meantime at least.
I would contest that it was something throughout all of Jewish history. In the 19th and early 20th century there was a huge thought change around many Jews though, as many regarded themselves as more ethnically their country of birth's ethnicity then Jewish. This tied into the emerging role of nationalism as a whole in the Victorian period, as nationalism became a rallying tool for many Jews as a way to integrate themselves into the state. One of the best examples of this is the Dreyfus Affair, where Dreyfus' own memoirs stated he considered himself French rather then Jewish, yet he was clearly indicted on his Jewishness (recommend read by the way or any books on the Dreyfus Affair, gives some good insights into European Jewry).
It was only the advent of the Zionist movement that made some Jews reconsider being 'Jewish' rather then x country of birth, and even then the Zionist movement was really only sent into full motion following the British acquisition of Palestine in WWI.
>>22376 >If the Bolsheviks were crushed by the Whites, I can seriously envision Communism lingering on with the inevitable "it hasn't survived long enough to be successful!" excuse being used
>>22422 >I feel the world was due coming out of the feudal age and hurdling into the industrial to try some sort of collectivist rhetoric somewhere and it would have been difficult to image a world where some influential state didn't give it a go.
Yeah, but my point is that the USSR directly propped up Marxist governments all over the globe that by all rights should have crashed and burned. Of course gommunism it was too seductive to go quietly into the night, but without the USSR's staggering sphere of influence the world would be a very different place now.
>>22522 True, part of what fueled it was Russia's behemoth in populace and resources.
My contention was, however, you could've seen it elsewhere ala Rosa Luxembourg and grassroots crew in Deutschland, who despite being a gommie fuck didn't get along much with the Bolsheviks and some of their ideas.
Could've been the Volkisch Republik von Deutschland propping up puppets instead.
>>19141 This kind of trash we need to purge out There is no source for these, and some of whom were explicitly non-Jewish (like Stalin). We need to fill this board with shit we can back up, not this meme garbage.
The Menshevik were more predominantly jewish than the Bolshevik too, not to mention the purges of jews during the 50's
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