Why the fuck can't we discuss the holocaust here? I'm not even talking about outright holocaust denial, but any moderate discussion against it, may it be death counts or etc. It's /his/ related you fucking cunts.
This board is brand new and it seems like half of all threads are about the holocaust, Jews, Hitler and WW2. I wish anything past 1900 is off limits
> but that'd be limiting what we can talk about! WW2 is history!
It's just an excuse for shitposting. Any discussion is destroyed by baiting and baseless claims
Because everyone already knows the truth about the Holocaust, OP.
Those who think the Holocaust happen know very well it happened, and have sources to back it up.
And those who think the Holocaust didn't happen know very well it didn't happen, and have sources to back it up.
Since we're all in agreement that we know the truth about the Holocaust, and won't accept to change our mind about it, there's no point in discussion.
And yes, I just described 4chan using "we". Cause there's a pretty strong consensus on this particular issue, namely: "I, anon, know the truth about the Holocaust".
Honestly I'm a /pol/lack and even I want WWII and Holocaust shit to fuck off, that is the exact reason Moot never wanted to make this place because he knew it would become /pol/ with dates.
I just want to talk about shit like the Three Kingdoms man.
It really doesn't though, and you're a perfect example of why. Your IQ is so low that you actually believe finding the number 6 million somewhere else proves a conspiracy. Having you in a discussion contributes nothing.
> i just want to discuss the holocaust
> fuck off back to /pol/
You are a part of the problem you know that right ? You and /pol/ are at the opposite sides of the autism spectrum. Threads go to shit only when you start fighting, and then the thread becomes an internet battlefield and everyone else gets fucked under the smoke and dust.
>, it's just a loaded topic on 4chan and should be banned for the sake of quality discussion.
>it's just a loaded topic
History is filled with loaded topics dumbass, so fuck it then ,by your logic lets do away with everything else, hell why even have a history board
>There is no one that wants to discuss history on the history board
/his/ should've never been made. Politics is directly intertwined with history. Such a stupid board to create.
I guess that's why it's called History and Humanities right? To give you fucks with your sociology degrees purpose?
Haha, are you really this retarded? Yes, everything is loaded to some extent, but /pol/ shills are literally spamming about Jews on every board at all hours of the day. 4chan was killed by lax moderation which resulted in a huge influx of 30 IQ "right wing" teenagers who spend all day, every day crying about Jews. A large percentage of the user base on 4chan now has hard drive space dedicated to Nazi propaganda.
If you can't understand how denying retards the opportunity to discuss their very favorite topics heightens discussion overall then you're really, really stupid.
> there is no one who really needs to discuss the holocaust
Keep your opinions to yourself and ignore the thread then fascist faggot. This is a history board and I can discuss whatever the fuck I want without having to justify the reasons behind it to the retards who think they are the police of /his/
>This is a history board and I can discuss whatever the fuck I want without having to justify the reasons behind it
You do actually, because we're all reporting you for trying to derail the board into containment 2.0.
>why not let it run its course
Are you serious? You do realize that /pol/ was originally just a politics board, right? Contrary to popular belief, the most dedicated propagandists on 4chan BY FAR are stormfront kiddies. Nothing will ever run its course. You're talking about NEET failures who spend all fucking day searching for opportunities to inject their narrative into shit.
They should be allowed to discuss it or any topic for that matter in a manner which adheres to the board's rules as should you, in the end it should be left up to the mods to their jobs correctly in enforcing the rules laid out, not bending over for you or anyone else because you don't agree with something or it hurts your fee fees
Not true. The people derailing it are the ones crying "muh free speech" aka /pol/. We already decided that this board would not be another stormfront hub, so /pol/ better accept it or get the fuck out.
>The people derailing it are the ones crying "muh free speech" aka /pol/.
Jesus christ, it's both of you, you blind faggot, quit thinking you're innocent in this, the blatant /pol/acks and the go back to /pol/ faggots, both shit, just fuck off
So in other words, you thought you were being clever by resisting the urge to reach into your .jpg folder, but your intentions are obvious anyway and now you're mad? You guys are fucking retards. Some of us actually have this thing called pattern recognition and can tell very quickly through the nuance in your posts what you're trying to do.
The fact is that 4chan apparently still has a small population which actually wants to discuss history without being spammed by propaganda. I know that's hard to accept for someone whose historical analysis consists of claiming "Jews did whatever bad thing happened in this year" and then piecing together a soggy jigsaw puzzle of evidence to support the claim while screaming Jew at anyone who points out how retarded and shitty your puzzle is, but you'll have to learn to accept it.
Threads only go to shit because you retards start fighting. You either answer questions in an adult-like fashion or you report deragotary insults and move on. Spamming is not a solution and against the rules.
Does anyone actually have evidence against the 6 million figure or the mainstream way the holocaust is seen? I hear about all of these /pol/ memes, but I haven't seen anything. I'm open to evidence if it actually exists.
>I know that's hard to accept for someone whose historical analysis consists of claiming "Jews did whatever bad thing happened in this year" and then piecing together a soggy jigsaw puzzle of evidence to support the claim while screaming Jew at anyone who points out how retarded and shitty your puzzle is, but you'll have to learn to accept it.
Literally never happened in the thread.
You are a schizophrenic prejudicial retard who thinks you're a genius and sees nazis wherever you look. Holocaust is an important part of the history and discussing it doesn't make anybody a nazi or a racist or whatever your tiny bigoted brain thinks it is.
You are the only one spamming and shitposting here.
>you got a problem with free speech ? too bad nobody cares you fascist fuck.
Yeah, actually. I'm an analytical person who comes to conclusions based on facts. I've never once said phrases like "Kek Tbh Senpai" outside of referencing a moron doing so. I've never bane spammed a single time. My sense of humor is that of a coherent adult rather than a teenager with severe mental disability.
The same cannot be said for you or really most of the people who browse this site daily. To grant you free, unrestricted speech would only serve to ruin whatever is left of this place. It's about perspective.
Right, that either. I don't have a porn folder of fat men wearing hats that I reach into whenever someone threatens the armor I've carefully crafted to protect my insecurities over being a complete moron.
>I've never bane spammed a single time.
>To grant you free, unrestricted speech would only serve to ruin whatever is left of this place.
The Holocaust is history. We can have threads about it. All the other Holobros just need to ignore the /lit/fags that spazz out in the Holocaust threads to make them bearable, though.
History doesn't shy away from loaded topics.
Give me evidence that a single Jew was put to death by gas chamber in Nazi Germany.
This post is dripping with pure utter euphoria. To think someone is so autistic enough to think he is somehow superior to anyone on this website. The arrogance. You're anon, you're all the other anons.
>I mind debating the number of deaths
Actual real historians with PhD's have been debating the number of deaths since 1946.
You'll just have to put on your big girl britches and live with it. Real academics do.
is /his/ going to be the kind of board that can't not take the bait? Because this thread is nothing but people getting triggered and rustled. It's really pretty embarrassing.
If you want to have a good board, a nice place, then self moderation is the most important thing.
I wasn't specifically talking about history, I was just referring to the pervasive preference for feelings over facts on 4chan. Particularly by people who constantly cry about liberals preferring feelings over facts, ironically.
>cry about people who deny racial IQ statistics
>bust out the fedora folder in response to religiosity vs. IQ statistics 5 minutes later
Sums up this shithole.
>/his/ is not /pol/, and Global Rule #3 is in effect. Do not try to treat this board as /pol/ with dates. Blatant racism and trolling will not be tolerated, and a high level of discourse is expected. History can be examined from many different conflicting viewpoints; please treat other posters with respect and address the content of their post instead of attacking their character.
>will not be tolerated
It impossible to study history, without taking race into account. It's like "Reality will not be tolerated. Agree with what we say or be banned."
I think the current deluge of threads about the topic and Nazism in general is expected and will die out in a few weeks hopefully. Actual discussion about the Holocaust, such as the extent of non-German culpability in the Holocaust, where most of it took place, and just how it affected international policy and in the following decades would all be good stuff. But /his/ is having some growing pangs right now, and the board has to have time to settle it's identity before you expect natural bait topics to not be all over the front page instead of just being a minority.
>Does anyone actually have evidence against the 6 million figure or the mainstream way the holocaust is seen?
So I don't want to get into this too much because it's so fucking complicated, but the 6 million figure is basically a round number. Some historians say 5.5 million, some say 6.5, with how complicated the statistics are and just how you classify deaths in 'the Holocaust' it's an endless debate really. Basically a lot of people died though, and really that's all that matters to me personally.
If you want to counter mainstream evidence against the way the Holocaust is seen, I recommend actually looking up where the majority of deaths in it took place. I had a seminar on WW2 once that gave me access to some books on the topic, and one thing that stood out to me was that most deaths in the Holocaust took place outside of death camps, and in village slaughters and other pogrom scenarios. I say this mostly to counteract the prevalence of death camps in the popular consciousness of the Holocaust, because the reality of most of the deaths in it is far more mundane then you would believe, though the organization of even the majority of these deaths still related to the industrialized process of how this was carried out. To relate to what I said before, these are the sorts of things you could actually discuss in a Holocaust thread.
>To think someone is so autistic enough
I'm actually the exact opposite of autistic... if anything my strongest characteristic is my ability to judge and read people.
>to think he is somehow superior to anyone on this website.
You're asking me to turn a blind eye to the obvious fact that most people on 4chan the last few years are complete morons.
Okay you want words, your last post screamed "i'm a pretentious asshat and/or 14 year old trying too hard at seeming smart" even if you are an intelligent person, telling us how intelligent you are like you did here
> I'm an analytical person who comes to conclusions based on facts
Only makes people see through your bullshit and call you out on it
So far as I lurked, it's just retard pretending to be /pol/.
Holy shit, it's like reddit pretends to be /pol/ so /pol/acks is banned here.
He has a point though. The people who say the 6 million figure is undeniable and hold that it should be illegal to deny, need to provide factual evidence instead of conjured up statistics from god knows where. Even the holocaust deniers are guilty of fucking with the statistics to push their agenda. My point is that the burden of proof falls on the person making the claim, i.e. the people who say 6 million is true.
Of course it is.
This isn't a super sekrit club.
4chan has always been about anonymity and the average anon is not going to be as "intellectual" as you.
Stop getting your panties in a twist about it.
All of the following are controversial, can we not talk about any of them?:
-Who discovered the Americas
-Rape of Nanking
-Historical Cause of African Slavery
-Causes of the Decline of Native Americans
-Cause of Pearl Harbor
-Justification of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
-Islamic Golden Age
Why is one issue elevated in importance above the others?
>literally hundreds of instances of jews claiming that precisely 6 millions of them were being slaughtered, from 1900 to 1945
>a jewish prophecy that says clearly that jews will reach the promised land only after a burning sacrifice (holocaust) of exactly 6 million jews.
>right after WW2, the rumor appears that 6 million jews were sistematically exterminated.
>jews proceed to get preferential treatment forever.
>it's all a coincidence wow ur dumb lol
I heard an argument saying that a lot of jews that died in camps didn't necessarily die from jews gassing them, but other things like sickness, famine, and just being killed from the war taking place. I don't know if they're included though.
Yeah that seems like a swell idea, nothing bad ever happens when you do that.
Well then, I guess it's fortunate no one thinks exactly 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.
It's not even a coincidence, you're just a useful idiot trained into seeing specific shapes in clouds. What's funny as fuck is that /pol/ trash is so discerning* and "meticulous* when it comes to analyzing the logistics of the holocaust, but immediately sheds those traits when it comes to the logistics of faking the holocaust. This is exactly why a religion upbringing is abusive. Without any doubt, your parents conditioned you into believing that your feelings have a bearing on a what is real or not.
BOY THIS SURE IS SOME ENLIGHTENING HISTORICAL DISCUSSION UP IN THIS BITCH
SO GLAD I STUCK AROUND FOR THE TOTALLY ORIGINAL CLAIMS AND REVEALS
No, but unless you are debating a topic which involves race as their primary motor (for example, the slave trade or the holocaust in which jews were killed for the single reason of them being jews), it is useless in most topics
They were forced labor camps, you don't keep them well fed, but you don't starve them to death either.
Most of the images you see of the concentration camps are these camps long after the germans abandoned them because the allies were advancing.
Political correctness literally means to censor opinions or statements on the table that can be offensive to certain groups. Unfortunately you can't distort or manipulate the truth in any way unless you want to have a factual discussion about historical events.
tl, dr : People will have opinions that you will disagree. Deal with it.
The fact that a topic is controversial makes it the perfect thing to discuss? What's the point of a conversation if everyone agrees?
Some of those deaths were probably from those caused. But it's important to know I think it depended on the camp as well, some were forced labor ones that were basically about working the inmates to death, and the others were just full on extermination, mostly the ones in Poland. And gas wasn't the only thing used, which is another thing I think is focused on too much in popular media. A lot of the time they just fucking shot them. Not to say they didn't exist, but mainstream media around the topic focuses too much on it, which is what I think leads to this backlash against the idea of it that leads to outright Holocaust denial.
>Political correctness literally means to censor opinions or statements on the table that can be offensive to certain groups.
Political correctness literally means in occordance with the Party line of the Soviet Union, which was that there was no authentic racialist motive for the actions of Hitler or the Nazi party.
Holocaust Denial is literally political correctness.
>How can you not believe that the infographics are wrong, it's the current year
>Doesn't know about the three kingdoms
It refers to a period of political anarchy in China predating the establishment of the nation as we know of it today by Emperor Q'in about 2,000 years ago. It is remembered for being something of a dark age of bloody warlords today.
You wanna know something about the Holocaust?
6 million didn't died, a lot of them were enslaved or went to die by starvation or got shot by trying to escape or whatever bullshit, they got shot. but it wasn't 6 million. By no means the holocaust is a hoax, it did happened, just not in the way jews describe. Then again, starving probably makes your brain stupid and exaggerates things.
Even then, who gives a shit about the holocaust? Hitler lost and Jews are happy. yay! End of the topic.
Because the fish is a mouthbreather.
But to be honest, if you've ever been fishing, then you'd know that the hook can catch in all directions.
Mostly from census figures.
Of course, the damned thing about it, at least in the USSR, is that so many Soviet citizens died that outright saying the SS had roving death squads on the front to explicitly kill Jews is hard to do, there's not well-kept records about what was happening there. It's not like the SS would be recording each person they shot. I believe the figure for deaths that are counted as part of the Holocaust on the Eastern front is right around 1.5 million (out of about 25 million for all Soviet citizens). That figure has to come from census figures, but at the same time, Jews weren't the only civilians being killed by the Germans.
As far as the alleged death camps, they had better records as far as I know. I've never looked at records for those camps, so I'm not sure how accurate that count is one way or another.
As far as Nazi government documents, beyond what was produced at the camps, there's nothing that specifically mentions extermination, and there's no "smoking gun" of who actually ordered the Holocaust. (There's been speculation that it was Himmler, rather than Hitler. Or even that the whole thing was Heydrich's brainchild).
Here's a book on the history of Holocaust denial. There's a .pdf linked at the bottom of the page.
because this board will just turn into /pol/'s little brother whose somehow even MORE focused on the holocaust.
The discussions on 4chan have been done to death already and nothing productive ever comes out of it.
Real and valid
Makes the "Holocaust" look like a picnic.
>Who discovered the Americas
Siberians, Solutrean, and whatever aborigines that evolved their. They all interbred with each other.
Not being treated seriously for politically correct reasons. [spoiler]White people be like, "Wez wuz duh first natives"[/spoiler]
Protestant Propaganda and complet myth
>Rape of Nanking
Part truth, part exaggerated for political reasons
>Historical Cause of African Slavery
Slavery was the currency of Africa. It was used first widespread in Africa and then the natives saw prophet in selling slaves to Whites and Arabs. England tried to make it illegal for everyone.
>Causes of the Decline of Native Americans
Disease, and warfare with both Whites and their fellow natives.... so typical conquest no different than what happened in the old world.
>Cause of Pearl Harbor
Boycott was starving Japan, had to cripple America long enough to start a foothold.... American gov't wanted an excuse to stop being neutral despited civilian opposition for war.
>Justification of Hiroshima & Nagasaki
End the war, and utterly humiliate Japan. The Empire was too similar to the Third Reich.
>Islamic Golden Age
Not really. Kidnapping whites to serve in your court, burning the library of alexandria, and only pursue science as long as it doesn't contract the Koran would put a limit on your Calipha.
/pol/ isn't about the holocaust, it's about politics. The holocaust and the accuracy of it's history is the very thing this board is for.
>Why the fuck can't we discuss the holocaust here? I'm not even talking about outright holocaust denial, but any moderate discussion against it, may it be death counts or etc. It's /his/ related you fucking cunts.
I entirely agree with you. And I also scroll down the thread and see why exactly someone might not allow it. Look at that shit show.
Well, all the non-/pol/fags are quite easily taking the bait. I'm wondering what the home boards of non-/pol/sters ITT are. /int/ is normally pretty good at the bants. Is it /lit/? Reddit? Inquiring minds want to know!
Reddit has been in war with 4chan way before /pol/ or most of the boards was even here. Moot even wordfiltered reddit and 9gag so they don't turn 4chan threads into shitstorms.
Reddit culture is about immature shitposting, "le memez" and raiding other boards to prove themselves they are the white knights of the internet. Reddit users don't even belong to 4chan.
No /pol/ was always serious. It was that sort of serious that you think you were just ironically shitposting but accidentally shitpost so much that you unconsciously turn yourself into the thing you were shitposting as?
If you're considering a conspiracy theory, the first question you would have to ask is how many people would have to be "in" on it for it stand up?
Hint: the number of people that would have to be in on any Holocaust cover-up would be in the millions, so it's not a plausible conspiracy.
Explain how every important person in hollywood is jewish despite jews making up only a small percentage of the population.
protip: the holohoax isn't real
>/pol/ is always serious
>this nigger thinks this way
And I bet you think /r9k/ and /b/ posts are always serious.
I've abstained from the ridiculous shit flinging so far, but I seriously hope you fucking /pol/lacks would fuck off of /tg/. Tumblrinas are fucking annoying but they aren't half cancerously self entitled in their opinions as you lot.
Pretty much. People yell fuck off /pol/ to things that are just vaguely related, /pol/ actually appears to say fuck off back even if they weren't there in the first place, people who just want to talk say fuck off to everybody. Nobody has much fun. Its kind of the nature of the beast at this point.
>Isn't up on modern academic terminology.
It ALSO refers to a period of religious and civil conflict in the British Isles. Hence why I asked "which one?"
It's real, and so are hundreds of thousands of others dedicated to the interests of just about anything under the sun, from races to religions to businesses. Several years ago it took me about 5 seconds to find a massive Facebook group of Muslims with a purpose identical to that of the JIDF.
So where do we go from there? A rational person would figure out pretty quickly that the notoriety of the JIDF on a site swarmed with neo-Nazis does a convenient job of providing a scapegoat to associate with all dissenting opinions. That's the type of shit that a person who isn't retarded considers before they allow themselves to be drafted into an ideology.
>Is the JIDF actually making this post, or does the person accusing them of being JIDF have a stake in that being the case? Should I really trust a person who makes a completely unfounded, unsubstantiated claim? Is there anything ironic about someone who spams literal Nazi propaganda calling everyone shills?
4chan is a terrible place because so many of you are totally satisfied with responses like "JIDF detected" or "Marketer" or "Hi [insert name of person being defended]" at the drop of a hat. You can say that's the culture of the site or whatever, but that doesn't make it any less pitiful.
>Babbies first denial
There are plenty of things that a large amount of people cover up.
>what is the CIA
Did you hear that denial on a podcast or something, I hear it's pretty trendy with people wanting to keep their head in the sand. Also people don't deny "the holocaust" happened just the specifics of it's history. You do realize that there are thousands of instances of proven revision of history that aren't uncovered for centuries right?
>If you can't understand how denying retards the opportunity to discuss their very favorite topics heightens discussion overall then you're really, really stupid.
It's the reason why furry was banned, and /d/ was created.
>One of the most documented events in human history
>Claiming all facts are made up by jews and dismissing them just because they don't fit your narrative
>Shitposting memes and infographics
>Wasting everyone's time in the process
No thank you OP
I don't deny that there are serious discussion, but I don't agree that they're always serious. It's just bonderline of ironic joke and serious things like every boards on 4chan.
You would understand that if you lurked that.
I love /pol/ when they can get themselves to strip out of their memes and actually dive into a discussion. But since it's the board for politically incorrect opinions, you can find all kinds of people there.
Why does anyone need to do that? Do you believe the holodomor happened?
>...1932 and 1933 that killed an estimated 2.5–7.5 million Ukrainians, with millions more counted in demographic estimates.
Any holocaust denier that believes the holodomor happened would be instantly regarded as doublethinking filth in any respectable circle. Every single "hole" you claim in the official holocaust story applies tenfold to other events such as the holodomor.
Literally has nothing to do with the OP or my post. This board is already such shit because everyone just wants to shit on Jews instead of actually talk about history. Let's say you're 100% right about everything you've ever said about Jews and they're all evil. Has nothing to do with the quality of the board. It serves no purpose. it's just shitposting.
The point is not about seriousness. The fact is there is a special sort of mindset that lets a person adopt and act a personality contrary to their real life persona. Either this person in some way subconsciously believes some parts of its persona or is simply a sociopath. Both equally frequent places like this.
>hurr durr it's wikipedia and I can't look at their sources
>hurr durr Nazis were forced to confess lies by jews
>hurr durr Nazis weren't proud of killing that many jews
The "denial" stance is that Hitler didn't intend to genocide the jews, he simply wanted them deported. It was the cutting of supply lines that made the jews starve and die in the camps.
Anthropology student here, the soultrean hypothesis has mostly been disregarded in the academic community because there's hardly any evidence to back it. The only thing brought up to support it are some similarly shaped spear points in Minnesota and France that were made within 1,000 years of one another. Hardly conclusive.
If I was /pol/ack I would counter that denying holodomor won't get you jail time. A few bruises and a whipping? Yeah?
But actual felony charges? Not likely.
You'd be surprised how many people dive into holocaust denial simply because it's banned by some governments.
These informations are not hardwired to our brains by birth. People can be informed about the X subject and not about the Y subject.
This is a discussion board about history. Stop crying about the people who want to discuss history you fascist shitposter.
Maybe with JIDF trying to poison the well, but what I just said is what actually happened.
Jews manipulating history falls in with the history part of this board.
>citing the Nuremberg trials
Nuremberg was a kangaroo court designed to execute the top 25 members of the NSDAP government. Very little of what was said in those trials should be trusted.
Before you start throwing around the Nuremberg Trials, you should read up on what Konrad Adenauer thought about denazification.
That's because we are on anonymous boards (well even though your ISP knows that you shitposts here).
Imagine if you have given liberty to do anything without (almost never) getting consequence. You will do that, that's human's basic of ego.
Yeah, I miss /pol/ before moot keked that board.
Denying and questioning the existence of God was persecution by death once. Nothing good comes from opressing and censoring questions.
Just ignore the shitposters, keep asking whever you like.
Are these the same bright fellows claiming Jews are genociding whites by using pictures of black men to dissuade them from reproducing above replacement? Are they the same ones claiming Israel controls the US and is genociding Palestine while Palestine's population grows faster than Israel's and receives a billion in aid from the US? Are they the same people who define "powerful" as "Jewish" so they can claim the non-Jews inhabiting every level of every power structure in the US are actually powerless?
>Why does anyone need to provide evidence
Your entire argument is an irrelevant informal fallacy. Step it up reddit.
From your own source
Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court Harlan Fiske Stone called the Nuremberg trials a fraud. "(Chief U.S. prosecutor) Jackson is away conducting his high-grade lynching party in Nuremberg," he wrote. "I don't mind what he does to the Nazis, but I hate to see the pretense that he is running a court and proceeding according to common law. This is a little too sanctimonious a fraud to meet my old-fashioned ideas."
Pic related is where the quote comes from
There has yet to be a single thread on the topic where the people who agree with the numbers could refute the claims made my the deniers.
It has literally come down to your world view being questioned and instead of doing any research or digging you'd rather stay in your bubble and ban people from attempting to burst it.
we're using Wikipedia?
>was a genocide in which approximately six million Jews were killed by Adolf Hitler's Nazi regime and its collaborators
well I'm glad we could all come to terms so easily
>Very little of what was said in those trials should be trusted
See OP? This is why you don't discuss the Holocaust, this faggots just claim the evidence that it happened can't be trusted, yet they always fail to provide evidence of that themselves.
It is like arguing against creationists that deny science just because they can say stupid shit without backing it up.
They just have assumptions against the Nuremberg trials, yet the Nuremberg trials are still as valid as the Moon landing.
>mfw people who claim to enjoy history actually believe 6 million jews were killed most of which by gas chambers and cremations
>If I was /pol/ack I would counter that denying holodomor won't get you jail time
Accurate. No one on /pol/ is capable of soundly reasoning and jumps to whichever emotionally charged rhetoric allows them to resist admitting they're objectively wrong.
Not that it's relevant at all to whether something happened, but the illegality of holocaust denial in almost all cases falls under laws with large umbrellas. In all but a few cases, it's referenced merely as part of terms like "crimes against humanity." So yeah, technically speaking, denying the holodomor can get you jail time.
Of course it's also important to consider how plausible the implication of your post is. You're basically stating that holocaust denial laws are part of a cover-up to prevent the truth from getting out. If anyone can explain in great detail how that would even be possible I'd love to hear it. The far more likely explanation is that laws were created in the wake of a war that killed 3% (or something) of the world's population to prevent resurgence of support for the offending ideologies and authorities. That actually makes perfect sense and has a plausible mechanism, even if you don't agree with it (I don't).
>Chief justice of the united states supreme court calling the nuremberg trials a fraud is NOT evidence against the nuremberg trial's legitimacy
That anon did provide evidence though. And the burden of proof isn't even on them in the first place.
Nice sources. I really feel that the info in these videos are the truth. it's not as though Iran's president leader would have any bias against the Jews and would want to discredit them or make them look bad. You really persuaded me. Sieg Hiel brother.
You can't prove you're right so you just say I'm naive.
Fuck you, you can't prove my flying narwhal doesn't exist. You're just conditioned to not believe in it because that would mean you're crazy.
The thing is, I'm not claiming to argue the facts. That proves to be completely useless in dealing with /pol/ because you're just the political version of creationists. You look at ground radar of Jewish fossils and say Jews put them there to test your gullibility so they could make it to the promised land.
Instead, I'm exposing you as someone who can't be trusted. The fact is that the very same logic you use to deny the holocaust can be used to reject every genocide that has ever occurred, including ones far more recent than WW2. It's also worth pointing out that after denying the holocaust you jump to claiming that the very same people you deny were targeted are now targeting whites through imagery of interracial relationships on TV. You then use the most hilariously liberal interpretation of the word "genocide" I've ever seen to claim that, actually, this is the real genocide.
No thinking person could ever believe your shit. Your narrative is so obvious that I can predict what you morons will say under any circumstance.
>they are invalid because...?
A person will admit to damn near anything if it means his fingernails will stop being ripped out. The US obtained 'confessions of guilt' from those waterboarded, too.
>Everything in that pic
As a history buff, I would lay out a point by point counter to every single point in that argument. Holy shit /pol/ is retarded, I didn't know anybody could be that oblivious on a subject they claim to be familiar with.
but rounding up the Jews from all over the country and putting them in several work camps is pretty much the opposite of deporting them, supply lines or not
this theory is getting flimsier by the minute
Not really. Torture was used during the Inquisition to get confessions from 'heretics'. Ever hear "if she's a witch, she'll float?"
Not on /tg/, I like having inane and tangential (yet mostly civil in tone) discussions. What I hope to find here once things settle down. I'm fucking sick of /pol/ leaking into /tg/ to hijack that atmosphere to troll people. That's what your fucking board is for, dammit.
Let me get one thing straight. Let's entertain the possibility that the holocaust actually happened for a minute. It didn't, but make pretend. Do you really believe 6 gorillion Jews died in the holocaust? You don't find it suspicious that this figure lines up perfectly with what is said in jewish prophesies and you don't question it at all? You're a sucker, plain and simple.
>Instead, I'm exposing you as someone who can't be trusted.
So you're admitting to ad hominem? Whether I'm trustworthy or not doesn't matter. You're literally committing logical fallicies and say that my narrative is false?
You're not even talking about the holocaust at this point, you're trying to conflate my views with "creationists", conspiracy theorists, and racists, without refuting the actual points I'm making. I hope this is bait, no one can be this much of a pseudo intellectual.
They're invalid because they weren't obtained correctly. We have laws against doing this shit to people who are arrested because it's unfair to them and coerces them into admitting something they may have not done.
Let's entertain for a moment that I can't tell you're a teenager and that I respect anything you have to say. I believe that the most likely number of Jewish deaths is somewhere between 5.1-5.9, as reported by legitimate historians.
> You don't find it suspicious that this figure lines up perfectly with what is said in jewish prophesies and you don't question it at all? You're a sucker, plain and simple.
Not at all. You're the type of person who thinks it's an amazing coincidence when you see a particular shape in a cloud. The people who formulated the casualty estimates did not just make them up out of thin air.
Torture was indeed used by the catholic inquisition, and by todays standards was horrifyingly cruel, but didn't happen as often as widely assumed. They had well established stages of coercion (their categories of which are still used in modern law btw) and were used sparingly. Our ideas of inquisitors throwing every man and his dog onto a rack are largely inspired by 16th cen. English propaganda, as Britain was in a cold sometimes hot war with Catholic Spain at the time.
Note how the blue pills deliberately ignore the quotation made in the same post casting doubt on the legitimacy of the Nuremberg Trials and instead latch desperately onto the fact that you said "reddit," trying as hard as they can to veer attention away from anything of substance that is said to focus on the immaterial.
These are the same people who will scream ad hominem if you call them a faggot, oblivious to the fact that an ad hominem is saying that someone is wrong *because* they are a faggot, not merely the act of calling them a faggot.
It's really damming evidence of either intentional deflection or unintentional issues with creating constructive and coherent discussion, both of which are clear marks of someone who is not worth interacting with.
Your entire perspective is a fallacy which is why you, like creationists, are impossible to debate using facts. You reject all evidence using conveniently crafted conjecture and then claim there is no evidence. Mysteriously, your extraordinarily high standards for what constitutes solid evidence disappear when it comes to blaming Jews for something.
You're asking me to look past the obvious fact that you're a liar. Sorry buddy.
The Knights Templar are widely accepted to have not commited heresy because their trails were done through torture by people who had an agenda to drive.
Why should we assume the Nuremberg trails were not the same?
How is that refuting anything? It's literally just picking out a couple of opinions that fall in line with his narrative. Anyone who thought the opposite, he will claim, was controlled by some shadowy Jewish figure behind the scenes.
How do you retards believe this shit? It's unreal. I swear half of you would believe someone telling you that you were deaf if they blamed Jews for it.
This is some hardcore pseudo intellectualism right here. What fallacy am I even committing? You just make baseless platitudes and ride on your high horse.
Where is the evidence though? The only evidence in this thread that's in your favor is the Final Solution.
The fact is, it's not the holocaust deniers job to prove anything, because anyone who makes the claim has the burden of proof. This is how it works in science and philosophy. No undeniable proof has been posted, you just keep talking shit about the poster instead of actually making arguments.
>As a history buff, I would lay out a point by point counter to every single point in that argument.
So do it.
As I said, your entire belief system is a giant fallacy. There's no undeniable proof for anything. If anyone was as scummy and as dirty and as worthless as stormfags are, you'd be getting perpetually trolled on your containment hugbox by people denying historical events in a way that triggers you using the exact logic you use to deny the holocaust. Sometimes I really fucking wish someone was as autistic and dedicated to wasting their lives away spamming 4chan with propaganda as neo-nazi tards are, because it would be hilarious.
Dude, can you do anything but name call
>As I said, your entire belief system is a giant fallacy
I'll ask again, which fallacy.
>There's no undeniable proof for anything.
Case in point. It shouldn't be treated like fact then, or illegal to discuss in european countries.
IT doesn't work that way. You were given evidence that the trails were fraudulent from the top and now you're saying we would deny it if it were other wise so it's invalid.
Do you understand how fucking retarded you sound?
It's the same as you refuting evidence because "he's probably a nazi!"
What else is there to talk about with the Nuremburg trials? You claim none of the confessions are valid because the defendants were tortured. In reality, you have no defined opinion on confessions obtained using torture, and would flip-flop on that "opinion" in an instant if the tables were turned and a Jew was confessing something you wanted to believe was true.
You can keep claiming that none of these contradictions apply to you, but we both know it's true. Holocaust deniers may not all be the same, but the ones on 4chan pretty much are.
From your own source.
>Historians disagree as to precisely when Hitler personally (1) decided that the European Jews should be killed and (2) gave orders to that effect. The issue is commonly described as functionalism versus intentionalism: was the Holocaust gradually improvised, or was it the execution of a plan laid in advance?
While this doesn't make you wrong, it does show that this is not definitive. It doesn't consider the role typhus played, and it conflates privation with extermination.
>In reality, you have no defined opinion on confessions obtained using torture, and would flip-flop on that "opinion" in an instant if the tables were turned and a Jew was confessing something you wanted to believe was true.
>You can keep claiming that none of these contradictions apply to you, but we both know it's true.
I will ask again, can we please discuss things that were actually said, and not things you've imagined?
The crux of the point is that the Nuremberg trial confessions are invalid because they were obtained during torture, and for obvious reasons, when your dick is being stapled to sand paper smeared with ghost pepper salsa, you will agree to say whatever your captor's wish. Do you disagree with this assessment of the confessions? Because your own sources deems them suspect.
I think his opinion is probably that while you're correct that the confessions would be invalid in isolation, they are valid in conjunction with the mountains of other evidence which corroborate those confessions. Denying a concerted plot against the Jews is actually hilarious. You have to reject out of hand shit like the Posen Speech, Hitler's ideology, all the propaganda against Jews that we still have from that era, all the disappeared Jews, photographs, eye-witness accounts, mass graves, crime sites, etc. If you claim ALL of that shit is fabricated, then you to explain exactly how it was fabricated. I want to know where and when everyone's Jewish grandparents met up to agree on a story.
>mountains of evidence
It still doesn't change the fact the confessions were obtained under duress and torture. I'll ask again, are you, or are you not, going to provide source, to disprove the sources me and the other Anons provided?
Great try there by the way.
When it was decided is important though, as we're told the holocaust was systemically happening through the 1930s, while your source says the Final Solution the implementation is debatable. You think nazis could PURPOSELY exterminate that many people in 3 years?
I never said the holocaust didn't happen. I'm debating the 6 million figure. Your own source conflates privation with extermination. If we considered that it would go from 5.1 million to 4.3 million.
Regarding postwar testimony from Nazis, were they all tortured into confessing to heinous crimes which they supposedly did not commit? This might be believable if only a few Nazis were captured after the war, or maybe if some had courageously stood up in court and shouted to the world about the supposed attempt to silence them. But hundreds testified regarding the Holocaust, in trials dating from late 1945 until the 1960s. (For example, see Böck, Hofmann, Hössler, Klein, Münch, and Stark.)
Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?
Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen? Well, Holocaust-deniers sometimes claim that the Jews have secretly infiltrated the German government and control everything about it. They prefer not to talk too much about this theory, however, because it is clearly on the lunatic fringe.
The main point is that not one of these supposed torture victims -- in fifty years, not one -- has come forth to support the claim that testimony was coerced.
On the contrary, confirmation and reconfirmation of their testimony has continued across the years. What coercion could have convinced Judge Konrad Morgen to testify to the crimes he witnessed at the International Nuremberg Trial in 1946, where he was not accused of any crime? And to later testify at the Auschwitz trial at Frankfurt, Germany, in 1963-65? What coercion was applied to SS Doctor Johann Kremer to make him testify in his own defense in 1947, and then, after having been convicted in both Poland and Germany, emerge after his release to testify again as a witness at the Frankfurt trial? What coercion was applied to Böck, Gerhard Hess, Hölblinger, Storch, and Wiebeck, all former SS men, all witnesses at Frankfurt, none accused of any crime there?
This is clearly ludicrous.
>Many of these Nazis testified as witnesses and were not accused of crimes. What was the basis for their supposed coercion?
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Clearly the incentive is "support our case for us and we'll let you off easy, don't and we'll fuck you".
>Many of these trials were in German courts. Did the Germans torture their own countrymen?
Do you actually mean to imply a defeated nation had any semblance of being sovereign, let alone having a standing judicial system?
The Nuremberg trials were conducted by the allies.
>The first, and best known of these trials, described as "the greatest trial in history" by Norman Birkett, one of the British judges who presided over it, was the trial of the major war criminals before the International Military Tribunal (IMT).
>My opinion is facts and yours is bullshit rhetoric
Excuse me? I just demonstrated how you were patently lying when you suggested the Nuremberg trials were conducted by Germans when they were in fact presided over by foreign nationals through the IMT.
I suggest you, you know, read a fucking book on the subject before shitposting.
Nice ad hom at the end, your projection was delicious.
>1. Why would the Nazi's want to kill Jews?
An excellent question, one that has been asked fore 70 years. While the decision to wipe the entire Jewish ethnic group from the face of the earth may never be fully answered, as many of the central figures of the Nazi heirarchy are dead, we do know that they did not begin their persecution with the intent to exterminate. When the Nazi's came to power they started to persecuting them in relatively small ways, such as IDing them and requiring them to wear the gold star. In the beginning it seemed they were more focused on disenfranchising them and excluding them from certain sectors of German society. At one point they attempted to exile them to nearby states, and later to Palestine when they had conquered said states. The exact reason the leaders of the Nazi Party abandoned this approach isn't fully clear, but could have been motivated by a desperation on their part, or the feeling they were sufficiently secure in their grip on power to pull it off without consequences, I'm not sure. In any case labor was hardly a resources Germany was severely lacking at that point. Their factories were getting bombed and they were scrambling for the resources to use in them, but they had enough workers for their needs, slave or otherwise.
>2. Why did they use such inefficient methods? Bullets are cheaper than gas.
I actually stopped and laughed at this. Despite what impression you might get from hollywood or vidya, bullets are really fucking expensive. A single 5.56 round that is the default bullet of infantry throughout NATO costs something like $1.50 today, and Germans were using all kinds of specialty rounds that caused hell for their logistics. Poison gasses, pound for pound, are way way cheaper for an industrial killing machine, that's half the reason the Germans started using it. The other half of that reason was to dehumanize the experience for the men actually doing the killing.
You're an idiot. You answered your own question. They weren't accused of crimes, so why would they criminalize themselves? To get off easier.
>Linking fucking nizkor dot org as your source.
You really need to obfuscate your identity more my friend, try more impartial sources. ;^)
>The IHR says:
Laws against intermarriage and sexual relations between Germans and Jews, similar to laws existing in Israel today.
More antisemitic lies and moral relativism. There are no such laws in Israel (although the number of intermarriages is quite small).
The Nuremberg laws not only prohibited sexual relations between Germans and Jews, they effectively punished them by death. (Although the specified punishment was imprisonment or hard labour - or both - a number of Jews were indeed executed for having sexual relations with Germans. Even "petting" was reason enough to apply the death penalty.)
The Nuremberg Laws of 1935 affected many things outside of personal relationships. Later in the year, an ordinance was issued on the basis of one of the Nuremberg Laws (see Hilberg, Documents of Destruction, 1971, p. 20):
On the basis of article 3 of the Reich Citizenship Law of September 15, 1935 (Reich Legal Gazette I, 1146) the following is ordered: ...
1. A Jew cannot be a Reich citizen. He is not allowed the right to vote in political affairs; he cannot hold public office.
2. Jewish civil servants will retire as of December 31, 1935. ...
Yes, I saw that. We are discussing if the Nuremberg confessions were obtained under duress and torture. I'll ask again, are you or are you not going to provide source that the defendants were tortured?
>Yes, I saw that. We are discussing if the Nuremberg confessions were obtained under duress and torture. I'll ask again, are you or are you not going to provide source that the defendants were tortured?
Hasbara shitposting, hope you get the scholarship this year David Menchowitz!
You guys used to spam this Nizkor shit all over /pol/ before flags. You're the reason we can't have nice things.
It all went away when /pol/ got flags.
We only have cool Jews on /pol/ now, because having 15 fat heebs elbow to elbow spamming the same three links and using derailing tactics is pretty fucking obvious when you've all got the same flag.
The tip off was how much he refused to acknowledge he was lying and started resorting to shit like "muh sauce" when it was clearly evident with a 2 second google where it came from.
Then, low and behold, Nizkor.
>prove it isn't a reliable source
The IHR says:
A report on the visit of an IRC delegate to Auschwitz in September, 1944 pointed out that internees were permitted to receive packages and that rumors of gas chambers could not be verified.
The same page
No doubt there were some cases of mistreatment. Some Allied soldiers were so shocked with what they saw in the camps that they reacted with violence, but this is not a serious factor in the overall picture. This is a long way from a policy of torture inflicted to extract confessions.
>No doubt there were some cases of mistreatment.
Nice samefag, abusing that we don't have IDs either?
I'm Jewish by blood too and I hope you fucking get stabbed by a Palestine for being this much of a slimey lying weasel.
Get fucked you disingenuous little prick.
Clearly /his/ is going to be Jew Shill 2: Slide Topic Boogaloo.
I'm out, I'll keep my discussion to a place that prevents this shit.
Listen up and make some changes Hiroshimoot.
Hope a mortar lands on your head you cockroach.
>A single 5.56 round that is the default bullet of infantry throughout NATO costs something like $1.50 today
Try 30 cents a round retail which doesn't take into account bulk purchase discounts the government would get. You seem like you don't really know what you're talking about.
And you sound like you're also gunning for the scholarship this year ;^).
I've been around un-flagged un-ID'd boards on this shithole long enough to know copypasting Nizkor FAQ is JIDF 101, newfriend.
Fuck this shit, Tojo better add flags and IDs to save this board.
>Nice samefag, abusing that we don't have IDs either?
Why do you think we're samefag? There has been consistently about 3 or 4 people arguing with you for a while now, as evidenced by time stamps such as with these three posts >>22979
You realize you didn't actually provide an answer, right? You just kind of excused it because "Well they had too many workers anyway."
I rather want you to finish your posts because I would like the chance to debate your points, but if you're going to be this slow about posting this thread is going to 404 before we get the chance.
SHUT IT DOWN
I honestly missed you guys JIDF, /pol/ was kinda more fun watching your poor shitposting attempts.
Ruthlessly gunning down entire villages of innocent women and children proved to be emotionally trying for many soldiers, some of whom knew their victims personally. I recall one report of a group of soldiers participating in such a massacre actually recognizing one of the corpses as a women who ran a cinema they liked to frequent. Having gas chambers only required one man to flip a switch without ever seeing the condemned, and killing so many of them he became jaded about what he was doing. Far more efficient, hence it's application to millions as an industry.
>3. How are we to believe such unreliable witness testimony?
Well, firstly because there's such an extreme abundance of it. Corroboration is a thing, and there are so many innumberable, independently verified cases that have come forward that I can't even come up with a description of how idiotic and biased one would have to be to question it with a straight face. Seriously. Even if you discount the Nuremburg testimonies, the survivors with numbers on their wrists, and the soldiers who found the camps, there is still an overwhelming amount of evidence. Paton forced an entire town to march the camps and see what was done there just to stop this kind of delusion, you can take a goddamn TOUR of the gas chambers today, and still you claim there is a lack of evidence. How much do you fucking need?
>4. Only Soviets found the death camps, are you really going to believe them?
Blatantly false. Numerous Allied armies encountered death camps on their march East. As mentioned above Patton found and went through much effort to document the Ohrdruf camps. It is true that the retreating Nazis attempted to disassemble the most incriminating pieces of evidence in the Western camps, but not all to the same extent and the second hand evidence of their operation was prolific. Heaps of emaciated corpses, mass graves, etc, etc.
Certain interests pay guys like these paltry sums to shitpost on discussion forums.
Nizkor is their go to for some reason.
You'd see it on /pol/ and apparently /int/ all the time before flags were instituted.
Regarding your claim as to 2, I posit this.
Regarding 3, soap and lamp shades.
>3. How are we to believe such unreliable witness testimony?
>Well, firstly because there's such an extreme abundance of it. Corroboration is a thing, and there are so many innumberable, independently verified cases that have come forward that I can't even come up with a description of how idiotic and biased one would have to be to question it with a straight face. Seriously. Even if you discount the Nuremburg testimonies, the survivors with numbers on their wrists, and the soldiers who found the camps, there is still an overwhelming amount of evidence. Paton forced an entire town to march the camps and see what was done there just to stop this kind of delusion, you can take a goddamn TOUR of the gas chambers today, and still you claim there is a lack of evidence. How much do you fucking need?
In fact, I feel like posting this just because your argument regarding 3 LITERALLY boils down to "so many people said some shit, so some shit must've gone down," with absolutely zero regard to the wildly ridiculous claims that were actually made.
Fuck off Chaim the jig is up.
Be sure you write to whoever is throwing you the shekels they need to give you more resources to draw from because it keeps exposing your true nature.
Fuck, you're right I'll try and abridge things a bit.
You want the initial reason Nazi's went after the Jews? My bad, assumed it was common knowledge. Short of it they were used as a target for some of the hate that helped unify and rally Germany behind the Nazis. They were richer than average Germans in completely crashed economy, they were more educated and a many of the hated communists were Jews. It was and easy connection to make. Then things sort of snowballed from there.
The funny thing is, I read your source. They never directly cover any proof showing 6 million jewish deaths. In that Q&A link, they even avoid the question by making it a negative on the second question. Instead of "What evidence exists that six million Jews were killed by the Nazis", they add a NOT in there to avoid it.
Daily reminder that this women was arrested for having an opinion
>5. Why are only the Jews remembered, and other supposed victims forgotten?
Partly because no other ethnic groups were targeted so widely in the operation, but also because many Zionists have a vested interest in making sure everyone knows about what happened to them and have so many avenues in English speaking academia/media to do so. Yes, /pol/, you were right in part about this one, I'll give you that. The holocaust has become a core aspect of Israels founding story, and part of the justification they give for fighting so fiercely for it. Also many Jews high up in American media today. If there were a significant number of Gypsies or Slavs in the buisness I garuntee you we'd hear more of their story, they certainly talk about among themselves often enough.
>6. Why is the Holocaust so much more important than other genocides?
Because it was an advanced, sophisticated culture at the heart of the Western world that perpetrated it. Nobody quite believed a Christian, western country could do something like that, and completely sank the prominent idea at the time that science and progress would inevitably improve humanity in every way. Progress alone did nothing to weed out humankinds bottomless capacity for cruelty, so instead western society took the holocaust as a lesson we could never, ever afford to forget. Hence the reason it comes up all the time.
>7. Why is it illegal to doubt the holocaust? All free thinking societies should be free to express anything!
Didn't know this could land you in jail anywhere, but the reason everybody abhors the holocaust denialism is because of the statement above. I know it's legal to do where I live, but the reason it's taboo everywhere in the english speaking world is because people fear they could one day they could do something so appalling.