>>4704 >why would they waste time doing it, when its more fun to pillage and rape the countryside? Literally a meme empire >the best siege engineers they found during their campaign They fought against generally inferior chinese forts, go find a proper European one in HRE or French territory then go find your meme empire and tell them to siege. It will be laughable since they couldn't even beat the reformed Hungarians and Austrians when they went back and created proper stone forts.
>>5044 >not realizing temujin was a manlet and wanted to conquer all of the world >not realizing they were planning to invade the HRE (and would have gotten btfo'ed by Fredrick II) >not realizing Hanseaitic league would make mad dosh and that the middle east was only rich because of the trade that went through it
>>5101 >hey were as good or better that the europeans. You trying to ruse me? European castles are undeniably the best of the entire time period, this is shit nobody can honestly deny
>>5375 >conquer cold shitholes that don't make money They were planning on doing it, are you trying to deny this? Genghis was powerhungry and that's about it >>middle east was rich because of trade Allow me to elaborate then, Europe had plenty of potential to be rich and the Middle East became almost entirely irrelevant after 1492. >>5366 And? Europeans were objectively better
>>5615 > invisible/unconquerable Well first off I never implied any of that and I was joking. Again, the Mongols absolutely fucked up in both Hungary and Austria once they reformed and built proper stone castles, the ones prior in Poland, Hungary, Austria, and Russia were wood. We already know the HRE and France had the best Castles on the mainland and they were the richest of the kingdoms so we can easily imply they would fail equally as bad. Not only that but the mongols fucked up in Vietnam due to climate and terrain, Europe was foresty as fuck pre-industrial age and the land was far from flat in many areas, horses aren't favorable there. >>5795 >mongols were not stupid. True, but the mongol dick sucking is something I'm not amiable to and I'm certainly not going to hear it for the rest of this boards existence
The Mongols were "weak" in Hungary in 1285 in the same way that the Muslims were "weak" in France in 732: these forces were far from their home bases, and going after relatively poor, low-plunder countries.
>>6004 True but the Mongols never launched a serious invasion of Europe like they did with Middle East, Central Asia, and East Asia. If you look at the geography of places they conquered, you'll notice that they're not just flat grasslands either. The entire campaign of Song China took place in hilly terrain with hot weather, with trees and rivers restricting movement.
Or take Korea as another example. A peninsula that's almost entirely mountains or hills and has very small percentage of flatlands. Their hill fortresses (made of stone) gave the Mongols considerable difficulty but they managed to overcome them, because it's much easier to project power there than all the way in Central Europe.
>>6004 >We already know the HRE and France had the best Castles on the mainland and they were the richest of the kingdoms so we can easily imply they would fail equally as bad. The Chinese city of Zhongdu had 18 miles of walls 40 feet high and 50 feet thick, with three lines of moats. The Mongols began besieging it in spring of 1214; multiple assaults failed. The siege didn't succeed until over a year later, in summer of 1215, when the governor of the city gave up hope and took poison. By then the citizens were eating corpses.
Further south, the city of Xiangyang withstood siege for three years, thanks to both extensive stores and occasional resupply from across the Han River. It wasn't defeated until 1271, when the Mongols put together a siege train of high-powered counterweight trebuchets to break the walls. (In 1291, counterweight trebuchets enabled the Muslims to conquer the double-wall fortified Crusader city of Acre in a month and a half.)
Now, European fortifications of the same period were no worse in simple stoneworking skill -- the donjon of Vincennes (still standing!) goes up 150 feet, although its walls are only 10 feet thick.
But the raw mass of Chinese fortifications utterly exceeds what a European monarch could afford or justify at this period. In Europe of that time, an impressive castle plan would be something like Edward I's Beaumaris, a rectangle about 500 feet on a side with two concentric walls. Compare that to Zhongdu above. Likewise, long-but-successful sieges in Europe were measured in months, not years.
So the Mongols needed a much larger siege train, and far more troops, and hence far more supplies, as well as much greater persistence, to take the Chinese fortified cities than was required for European fortifications in this period.
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