As this is a new board I think an obscure history thread is a good idea. I'll start with an allied massacre.
The Bull's Head hotel on 44th Street, which refused to provide alcohol to the mob, was burned. The mayor's residence on Fifth Avenue, the Eighth and Fifth District police stations, and other buildings were attacked and set on fire. Other targets included the office of the New York Times. The mob was turned back at the Times office by staff manning Gatling guns, including Times founder Henry Jarvis Raymond.
Inejiro Asanuma was a Japanese politician, and leader of the Japan Socialist Party. He was assassinated on live television.
Sorry if that was inaccurate, but thanks for the heads up. I'm always happy to learn.
The Moche civilization (also known as the Mochica) flourished along the northern coast and valleys of ancient Peru, in particular, in the Chicama and Trujillo Valleys, between 1 CE and 800 CE.
I think hidden American history is pretty interesting
FBI records show that COINTELPRO resources targeted groups and individuals that the FBI deemed "subversive", including anti-Vietnam War organizers, members of black civil rights and nationalist liberation organizations (e.g. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Black Panther Party), feminist organizations, anti-colonial movements (such as Puerto Rican independence groups), and a variety of organizations that were part of the broader "New Left".
FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover issued directives governing COINTELPRO, ordering FBI agents to "expose, disrupt, misdirect, discredit, neutralize or otherwise eliminate" the activities of these movements and their leaders.
Groups that were known to be targets of COINTELPRO operations include
communist and socialist organizations
organizations and individuals associated with the Civil Rights Movement, including Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and others associated with the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, the Congress of Racial Equality, and other civil rights organizations
black nationalist groups
the Young Lords
the American Indian Movement
the white supremacist groups
the Ku Klux Klan
the National States' Rights Party
a broad range of organizations labeled "New Left", including Students for a Democratic Society and the Weathermen
almost all groups protesting the Vietnam War, as well as individual student demonstrators with no group affiliation
the National Lawyers Guild
organizations and individuals associated with the women's rights movement
nationalist groups such as those seeking independence for Puerto Rico, United Ireland, and Cuban exile movements including Orlando Bosch's Cuban Power and the Cuban Nationalist Movement;
and additional notable Americans.
1. Infiltration: Agents and informers did not merely spy on political activists. Their main purpose was to discredit and disrupt. Their very presence served to undermine trust and scare off potential supporters. The FBI and police exploited this fear to smear genuine activists as agents.
Psychological warfare: The FBI and police used myriad "dirty tricks" to undermine progressive movements. They planted false media stories and published bogus leaflets and other publications in the name of targeted groups. They forged correspondence, sent anonymous letters, and made anonymous telephone calls. They spread misinformation about meetings and events, set up pseudo movement groups run by government agents, and manipulated or strong-armed parents, employers, landlords, school officials and others to cause trouble for activists. They used bad-jacketing to create suspicion about targeted activists, sometimes with lethal consequences.
Legal harassment: The FBI and police abused the legal system to harass dissidents and make them appear to be criminals. Officers of the law gave perjured testimony and presented fabricated evidence as a pretext for false arrests and wrongful imprisonment. They discriminatorily enforced tax laws and other government regulations and used conspicuous surveillance, "investigative" interviews, and grand jury subpoenas in an effort to intimidate activists and silence their supporters.
Illegal force: The FBI conspired with local police departments to threaten dissidents; to conduct illegal break-ins in order to search dissident homes; and to commit vandalism, assaults, beatings and assassinations. The object was to frighten or eliminate dissidents and disrupt their movements.
This a historical question
Is there any more evidence to back up pic related?
On such a massive and industrial scale? Do you think they all said to each other "right guys, we've got a conspiracy to establish here. Make sure you get your facts straight about what happened."
>but why would an eye whiteness say that if it wasn't true?
Eye witnesses' oral testimonies are notoriously historically unreliable. Oral history methodology goes over this. In particular people wanted to vent the monstrosity of what they experienced.
It took until the Einsatzgruppen & Police Battalion studies in the 1990s (Browning) to get to the heart of the real day to day business of liquidating millions of europeans.
Despite Goldhagen's wild conclusions about universal Germanic guilt at a cultural level, the sources he relies upon for the three fold system of pogroms, camps and death marches are valid. You might like to start by reading Goldhagen, and then move onto Browning's Ordinary Men
He was pretty popular too. So, even though it's not a nice thing to say, given the current political situation in the world, the murderer might've saved Japan.
Same for the death of Chris Hani.
>Herodotus made a bunch of shit up in his book to spice it up.
Nah. That's just what ancient shitposters would say about him. He took what people told him and wrote them down letting the reader decide whether they thought it was bullshit or not.
Well, it clearly went a bit further than blackmail, most people don't seem to know about this and it's not like it ended with Hoover. They just said they'd handle it on a case by case basis from then on.
The amount of conspiracy theory crap, its association with Israelis, and your posting of a death list with a nationalist tricolour edging rather than the traditional black triple thick border is the edgy component.
Have some more taste.
>okay this is probably going to be a generic gunshot to the head
>FOLDED 1000 TIMES GLORIOUS NIPPON STEEL
Holy shit, fucking gooks man.
Lavon Affair, 1954
Israeli intelligence service execute attacks on British and American targets in Egypt, to be blamed on Egyptian organisations in order to ensure that British military presence in the Suez canal zone was maintained.
Classic red flag.
It's not the facts you come with, it's the way you present it. This source you use has so strong tendencies that you give us the impression of you as a tinfoiled stormfag. If you want to actually prove something, come with an emotinally neutral source and convincing logos. Otherwise gtfo /pol/fag
Iron Age Wendish migrants in Finland and why we call Russia Venäjä today.
And the genetic and linguistic evidence in Finnish, but I'm not going to translate this: http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Vendit.html
I don't think famines in the Indian subcontinent caused by Britain ever get enough of a mention.
They're right up there with Stalin and Mao, yet virtually no one seems to have heard of them.
Edward I 'Longshanks' was the victim of an attempted assassination whilst on crusade.
Probably organised by the the 'Old Man of the Mountains' (Ismaili/Nizari leader of Syria) in order to prevent the Crusaders and Mongols from orchestrating an invasion of Syria.
By some accounts, Edward after being stabbed in the hip by the assassin punched his assailant to the floor then plunged a dagger in to his head to kill him.
Much maligned monarch (see Braveheart) had hobbies including swimming and ironmongery, considered very strange pastimes for someone of the highest aristocracy (he was also known to have preferred the company of low born men to his aristocratic peers).
Also, despite common belief that he was homosexual he is known to have had one or maybe two illegitimate sons.
I remember as a kid having a veteran from the county board come in and just give a little talk about his wartime experience. Went fine, but at the end he talked about his unit coming upon Buchenwald.
Teachers did not expect him to go into detail. In addition to showing some pretty graphic photos for 5th grade, he even showed a photo of himself pointing a pistol at one of the female guards. He said he regretted not killing her because she got off with a light sentence. I'm amazed the soldiers had the restraint.
Actually, everyone has heard of them right now because Marxist historians who control every single academic institution in the West won't shut up about them as a way to whitewash their own support for Maoism and Stalinism in the past.
I bet you could canvass 100 Brits about them and 99 wouldn't have a clue.
Nor are they exactly popular writing material among professional historian whatever your random slur.
Depends where you canvassed.
Anyone who has been to university since the late 1960s will know about it, but ask the man on the street and he wouldn't have a clue about even some of the most basic parts of WW2 history, let alone a regional famine in 1943.
>>one guy lies about holocaust rollercoaster
>>massive and industrial scale
And masturbation machines, and being gassed multiple times, the ever shrinking number of camps, the dwindling number of dead at Auschwitz without a revision of the 6 million.
Look I think the Holocaust happened, but certainly not to the degree I was told in school.
I wish I could have a real discussion on the topic without
>muh 6 gorrilion
>Hitler dindu nuffin
Waging an enternal battle. But we can't have nice things
Honestly I think we should just sticky a holocaust thread to honeypot all the people who want to talk about that and this will stop happening.
The Western estimate of 5-6 million was never based on the Soviet claims for the number that died in Auschwitz (which was also a claim about Soviet dead as well as Jews anyway).
At least if you are going to go tinfoil hat tier about something have a clue what you are going illuminati tier about.
This position would be a lot easier to defend if it weren't for the Germans themselves being obligate record keepers.
>surrendering soldiers being killed
who gives le fuck, every army has done it in every war ever. especially hard to feel bad about concentration camp guards.
Why are you being hostile? There's no reason to be rude.
How is pointing out problems with the current narrative about the Holocaust tinfoil tier?
I also love how you completely gloss over my point in favor of some "gotcha" moment
>be forced into the Army by your country or be killed
>be forced to work at concentration camp or be killed
>surrender to troops from Allied forces
oh right, yeah, they deserved it alright.
Well, that there's credible evidence opposing the figure of 5-6 million dead.
Which isn't really true.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there just isn't anything substantial enough to disprove the conclusions of the US Senate, the UK Parliament, the Nuremberg Trials and the Red Cross.
The Nazis own Wannsee list shows a clear decrease in the global Jewish population by about 4 million in between 1942 and 1948.
And you have German records themselves, which were of course immaculate, because it's Germany.
>How is pointing out problems with the current narrative about the Holocaust tinfoil tier?
Because it is claiming that thousands of reputable scholars over decades are part of a conspiracy.
In my personal opinion the number of dead is simply a red herring. Of course, it's a red herring that the Jews brought themselves to the table in order to intensify their image of victims in order to gain political favors.
But the most important part, the fact that people were systematically killed simply for being Jewish or Gypsy is undeniable and focusing on the numbers helps nobody in my honest opinion.
The first modern concentration camps occurred in South Africa. They were set up to contain Boers during the Transvaal war. The first German concentration camps occurred in modern-day Namibia and were used to contain rebel Hottentots and use them as forced labor in diamond mines.
Didn't the Nuremberg trials accept the existence of masturbation machines? It's hard for me to take their findings seriously when things like the rollercoaster of death are on the table as real.
If the Germans are such immaculate record keepers and they say 4 million doesn't that discredit, to a degree, the 6 million number?
Plus there was a tuberculosis outbreak and all the railways were bombed so it wouldn't surprise me if many simply died of starvation.
Look I'm not saying the Germans didn't commit genocide. But the amount of information that is point blank impossible makes me question exactly what happened.
>google "masturbation machine"
>all of the results are from youporn or xvideos
The thing is, people breed.
If a population decreased by 4 million over the course of a 6 year period, when over the ten years before that, it increased substantially, the body count is probably higher than the population decrease, because some people had kids during that time period.
Also, Jewish mortality rates in occupied Europe were more or less unrelated to the general war situation. The deadliest year of the war for European Jewry was 1943, and it tapered off from there because there weren't nearly as many of them left around to kill.
You would be correct that the most common cause of death during the Holocaust was starvation and infectious disease.
However, this was a deliberate policy, not accident. The food ration for concentration camp internees was something like 300 calories a day.
>Didn't the Nuremberg trials accept the existence of masturbation machines?
I honestly don't know but it wouldn't be a strange thing to accept given the experiments the Nazis certainly did get up to and suggesting if they did this incredibly minor issue as somehow repudiating their findings is a basic composition / division fallacy.
>If the Germans are such immaculate record keepers and they say 4 million doesn't that discredit, to a degree, the 6 million number?
It discredits the claim it was a few thousand or even a few hundred thousand a lot more.
>Plus there was a tuberculosis outbreak and all the railways were bombed so it wouldn't surprise me if many simply died of starvation.
You don't think that if you imprison a load of civilians in camps with poor conditions then you are responsible for disease outbreaks?
>Look I'm not saying the Germans didn't commit genocide
Because it still carries the stigma, even if demonstrably true. It's not a rational thing; if you know about it it means you care about that stuff and probably think there is shit like that still going on (which would be silly not to assume), and you end up the weirdo all the same.
I do talk about it, but in close groups and calm conversations and try to sound chill about it.
>it's not a conspiracy theory at all.
It's literally a conspiracy theory, one that has been proved true. Don't support language drifts, conspiracies are conspiracies, otherwise it'd be like thinking "thug" means "nigger" nowdays, or using "literally" as an emphasiser instead of its true meaning
please do. I wouldn't know what to add. You might want to try not to make it sound /pol/ nor /x/, to avoid trouble/derail/replies/ban
>food allowance 300 calories a day
>has rabbit breeding clubs
There are things that just don't make sense.
I'll have to find it, but the world Jewish almanac from 1950 shows a stable increase in the population.
If they're willing to accept masturbation machines they were obviously not very critical of the information they reviewed. I don't think you understand how absurd the idea of masturbating someone to death is.
Obviously the Germans put the Jews in camps. But given that people blindly accepted masturbation machines as real, they obviously didn't have very high standards for evidence.
Denying that Jews were masturbated to death is illegal in many countries? Obviously something is wrong here.
Âghâ Mohammad Khan Qajar (who unified Iran) was an exceptionally cruel and brutal ruler, even when compared to other persian/turkic rulers, and specially if we keep in mind he ruled in the start of the 19th century.
When he took Kerman, nearly 20,000 women and children were given as slaves to the soldiers, and all adult males were either put to death or blinded. When he reconquered Georgia (a traditional persian holding by the time) Tbilisi was savagely sacked; the old and infirm and the priests were massacred, and at least 15,000 able-bodied men and women taken into slavery. He is also known for having tortured to death the other two pretendants to the throne of Iran, descendants from the Afsharid and the Zand dynasties respectively. Once, while drunk, he shot and wounded his secretary for no reason. With kings like that on their collective memory, one understands better why monarchy is not really popular on Iran despite the alternative being you know what.
Mohammad Khan Qajar is also the only man that I know about who, being an eunuch, started a royal dynasty (though not with his own direct offspring of course).
>Muh masturbation machines
Do you really consider this a significant issue?
I consider the fact that this was not questioned a serious issue.
Also 6 million would be almost half the modern Jewish population. So over half the world's Jews lived in occupied Europe and were found. Plus there were millions of survivors. So where did all these Jews come from?
>I honestly don't know
Go search the archives of the Nuremburg trials online. They are all there, word for word and documents submitted in support - it says almost nothing about death camps and certainly doesn't provide any evidence for a holocaust which was overwhelmingly aimed at jews. Yes there's plenty of other testimonies and accounts not in the Nuremburg record but they point to a pretty even handed approach to removing slavs, gypsies, bolsheviks and even the disabled from the wider society.
Horrid, racist, macabre of course but please know your facts.
Some were just alcoholic harem party madmen. A lot were alcoholic harem party murderous madmen.
And then there's Suleiman the Great was a part-time murderous madman, part-time lawgiver library guy.
>Go search the archives of the Nuremburg trials online.
Something you should do.
I already posted footage from the Nuremburg trials.
>Also 6 million would be almost half the modern Jewish population. So over half the world's Jews lived in occupied Europe and were found. Plus there were millions of survivors. So where did all these Jews come from?
This is an appeal to incredulity fallacy. Do you have any idea how many people died in WW2?
this, its ridiculous to believe that the full 12 million number died, with all the "new discoveries" that show up every other year or so, along with all the other cases of 6 million jews coming up before the holocaust. The total number probably lies at about 6 million.
It's not an appeal to incredulity. There were millions of Jews living in the middle east. There simply aren't that many Jews.
Look here's the world almanac showing an increase in the number of Jews world wide during a period where over half of them were killed.
Second image incoming
>This is an appeal to incredulity fallacy. Do you have any idea how many people died in WW2?
Isn't that just repeating the same fallacy?
Official red cross numbers put the total deaths from the camps around 270,000.
Sourced here: https://www.worldcat.org/title/report-of-the-international-committee-of-the-red-cross-on-its-activities-during-the-second-world-war-september-1-1939-june-301947/oclc/1654802
You can probably check the volumes out at a local library if you want to read through them. Picture related.
About the same time you post me forensic evidence for evey single death in the American Civil War, or the Vietnam War, or WW1, or the Salem Witch Trials or the Hundred Years War.
You can't even post me forensic evidence the Falklands conflict happened and you expect this sort of level of anal ridiculousness to be acceptable on /his/?
This isn't /pol/ lad. You're going to need to do a lot better.
Certainly not thousands of historians, governmental and judicial bodies that have looked into this issue.
Did you mean according to a 12 year old with a voice synthesizer on youtube?
I linked the published books in my post.
Are you asking for some other kind of source? Those volumes are where the numbers come from and were published shortly after the conclusion of the war. (1948, specifically)
Do you want me to buy the books and mail them to you or something?
The Old Man of the Mountains?
Was this the historical inspiration for the Assassins?
>Dude ordered by Middle Eastern man to kill Crusaders
Here's the thing.
In the real world, when you have a claim, you present evidence.
All of the judicial bodies that have investigated this matter have concluded that around 6 million Jews died as the result of deliberate German policy during WW2.
They provided first hand accounts, from both death camp victims and death camp employees, as well as German documentation and large scale demographic data.
What evidence do you have to rebut this?
Not accusations. Evidence.
Here's the thing.
There has never been creditable evidence of the holocaust being as large as you claim.
The investigators did nothing but claim without evidence and they could not be stopped because they had just won the war and needed to vilify their enemies to ensure peace.
The provided falsified and cohered testimony. Testimony that claimed it was so large that it would have been impossible with pre-war populations.
But never any tangible evidence.
Extordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
There's been plenty of evidence; in fact, most of this: "They provided first hand accounts, from both death camp victims and death camp employees, as well as German documentation and large scale demographic data." has been disproven. A lot of data was faked, a lot of "first hand" testimonies could have easily been coerced as the individuals were under duress.
The problem is that people like you dismiss out of hand anything that disagrees with your preconceived belief that the holocaust was real.
This is how a religion works. They get you young, tell you to believe x or y, give you some 'evidence' that looks pretty convincing to a child, and now you grow up rejecting anything that challenges the indoctrination. I can tell that you haven't even attempted to look at any evidence contradicting the holocaust narrative.
You have already made up your mind on the matter, without having actually compared the evidence. A lot of people who believe in the holocaust are like this.
Yeah, pretty sure draftees would reach a point where they said, "Yeah this is pretty fucked up."
SS were totally down for concentration camps, normal people just knew people were being taken away, not what was happening.
It's a honeypot thread you dolt.
Everyone who knows it was exaggerated know it. Everyone who doesn't won't listen. Honey pot thread catches the people who think it's productive to talk about this. Everyone else can go to different threads.I did this on purpose.
Fucking dense idiot
Are you fucking kidding me? It was so exaggerated because of the hate caused by the poor living conditions of German prisoners of war. If I came across these camps it would be my first impression that they didn't care about them and probably wanted to kill them.
During WW2, the US accidentally bombed Schaffhausen in Switzerland. Approximately a hundred people were killed. The US promptly apologized and offered a few millions dollars as compensation. Since then it has become a tradition to paint Swiss flags on the roofs of the biggest buildings in various cities. Some people have argued that this actually wasn't an accident but a way to reduce exports towards Germany. The truth about it is still not perfectly clear.
Switzerland was accidentally bombed six times by both the allies and the Germans during the war.
The Swiss army also fought against Germany by destroying some of their planes violating their airspace (to go bomb cities in France) with anti-air artillery. This angered the Nazis so they sent approximately 30 fighter planes which were promptly defeated by the outnumbered Swiss air force.
This made Hitler extremely mad, especially because the planes used by the Swiss (Messerschmitt Bf 109) were bought from Germany. He pressured the Swiss government by menacing to invade the territory. Since then, Switzerland completely stopped to intercept planes violating its airspace.
If you can read French, the Wikipedia article about this is pretty good.
It's always mentioned but often ignored. British Empire history is filled with death and massacres. It's not like British people don't know it happened, but they often glaze over it as if it was simply a 'rare black spot' in the otherwise progressive and noble British history, either that or justify it by saying that the British Empire fell into ruin as a means to stop the Third Reich, neither is right though.
History of what the British did to the Irish? Pretty much ignored in Great Britain.
So Jews increased in population during the Holocausting of half of them
The red cross says only 270,000
You can't masturbate people to death.
Camps had rabbit breeding clubs and swim teams
Holocaust btfo it looks like folks
>in the navy (inb4 gay, it was extremely gay)
>in school for my job
>read about this on 4chan the night before
>my LPO is really into navy history
>ask him about the USS Liberty, say all I know is Israelis destroyed our ship and I didn't know why, it was flying out flag, right?
>he says he's never heard of it and I shouldn't ask about it again
>after class asks to see me "about my last test"
>says I should forget about it if I don't want any trouble
>not like he's threatening me, more like a warning
>decide to forget about it for the rest of my time in the navy and GTFO as soon as my contract is up
I don't mean to be pedantic, but I doubt the similarity is coincidental. Classical education is pretty big in the Eastern US, and that's a popular story for Latin language class materials, so I bet the Bethesda devs of TES: Arena were directly inspired by tales of the Sibyl's tomes.
>for a country famous for it's neutrality, Switzerland has a pretty strong defence policy
>nowadays they need French and Italian planes to intercept hijacked liners for them outside of office hours because there's no one left on base
How the mighty have fallen.
I'm part of a few AnCap groups, and we're pretty sure we've had government agents sniffing around. It's not a secret that such anti-state movements are some of the most watched by the government.
My grandfather was in that, 517th Parachute Regimental Combat Team
I learned he liberated Dachau, but nothing about a SS massacre.
Based as fuck, honestly. He was 100% ethnic German too.
I was there a few weeks ago. I thought the trees were the originals and i thought it was really cool i touched them. They weren't originals though they were burnt for fuel like everything else after the war
Descendants of the Mongols (known as Mughals in these areas) are even found in South Asia.
Probably to be remembered. Clearly it worked if you're posting about it. I mean, let's be real here, how would he have known something like that existed if he lived through the camp? The Nazis wouldn't have left that shit out in the open so that their prisoners could try to sabotage it, so I highly doubt he actually saw anything like that. I mean, if something like a holocaust roller coaster existed, then we would have found evidence of them in the camps. Literally, unless the first thing the Nazis said while destroying evidence when they were losing the war was "Alright guys, we gotta make sure to destroy all our camp roller coasters so that way those filthy Allied Powers can't steal our designs," then I'm pretty sure we can say they didn't exist.