ITT we post and discuss historical arms and armour
Old thread >>27587
Pic shows a suit of Gothic armour, a popular style produced mainly in South Germany and Northern Italy during the late 15th century.
/k/ here, stumbled across this.
anyon e have experience with saxes? particularly norse examples of longsax.
I seem to find conflicting reports of them being hilted and pommeled just like a sword, and in fact becoming the single edged swords, and others that say only the mentioned swords have the sword fittings and a regular longsax still had no guard or fittings whatsoever.
id think a long stabbing weapon would be, well, somewhat unsafe to stab at without something preventing your hand from sliding off the handle onto the blade if it hit something solid.
Can every one provide details like this on images they post this time like OP
Irish infantry during the Anglo - Spanish War (1585 - 1604)
Note the armour and arms are heavily influenced by their Spanish contemporaries
Seaxes later developed pommels and guards akin to swords.
I don't see how it would be that much different from a rhomphaia or falx. Your hand wouldn't really slip upwards like that anyway unless you had uber sweaty palms. The grip would produce enough friction to prevent that. Modern reconstructions laquer the wood to make it look nice, but for practical use it wouldn't be (or would be wrapped in leather)
And here we have a particularly beautiful example.
This is an Alemannic seax from the 5th century. On the right it can be seen in the state it was found. It was later handed to a renowned Japanese blade polisher, a so called "ningen kokuhou" (living national treasure) who learned how to polish antique blades, as it is custom in Japan. In Europe this is not common, since archaeologists fear to lose vital information in the process (which is factually true, since the process can't be infinitely repeated, after all, metal is lost each time the blade is polished), which is one of the reasons why medieval European blades often aren't as shiny as their Japanese counterparts. Here a different approach was taken and the blade was made to shine in its former glory.
It was constructed akin to a katana, wrapping a hard, carbon rich edge steel around a more ductile core steel. Differential hardening by quenching was applied. The hardened edge can clearly be seen, as well as the pattern emerging from the folded metal ("hada" in Japanese terminology).
I have these, as well as this one which is a bit different.
I figure that they got to a point where they became the single edged sword, and was still cheaper than the 'typical' double edged sword (like the Type X)
similar to, and probably a precursor to, the Falcion and Kreigs/Grosse Messer
some sort of Chinese skyrim mod.
he's wearing mountain pattern/mountain scale armor, the only type of Chinese armor I like. sadly reproductions seem rare with most of my pic collection consisting of drawings, drawings of drawings and colourless statues.
>Has anyone done a fuzzy-math estimate of how much these things would have cost?
I can provide you with some information in that regard. It doesn't cover this particular suit of armour, but the costs should be comparable.
For comparison, here we have an Italian Milanese suit of armour. This style was quite popular throughout the first half of the 15th century.
The helmet type is a Barbute, which was likely not worn on the battlefield but was more of a duelling helmet. On the battlefield it is more likely that a Hounskull/Bascinet would have been worn. Many helmets also were made in a fashion that different visors could be attached to them, e.g. in order to have full protection during charges, and sacrificing that protection for better visibility and breathing when on foot or in duel situations.
It should also be noticed how the visor is attached; it looks like the pin could easily be removed in battle in order to drop the visor when necessary.
thats off the hook. I assume that would have been a fancy assed sax for a richfag, since i thought saxes in general were just knives made by local smiths or any guy who could beat some iron, and longsaxes were a cheaper alternative to a sword because they didnt require the ammount of detail, balancing ect as a sword?
i kind of like the leather wrap on this but i cant help but think the big pommel would be out of place on something this short, and reserved for the big ones. i like the small guard though, but i think it might be a bit out of place on a plain wood handle with a slight hourglass taper in the middle.
Did long saxes (particularly with blades 20-30 inches) still have the hidden tang, or were they peened?
>I assume that would have been a fancy assed sax for a richfag, since i thought saxes in general were just knives made by local smiths or any guy who could beat some iron, and longsaxes were a cheaper alternative to a sword because they didnt require the ammount of detail, balancing ect as a sword?
No, this sax did not belong to a prince. It was taken from a commoner's grave. Of course, swords were more expensive, but they required even more intricacy than the more simple folding pattern of a sax, not to mention that they required more high quality steel. Often the price of a sword also had something to do with more elaborate fittings, adorned with gold or precious stones, etc. - it wasn't unthinkable for someone to own one. For household warriors it was most certainly quite common.
Here we have a so called "Kastenbrust" (Box Chest) armour, which was popular during the mid 15th century, predominantly in Germany. No full suit of armour of this type has been preserved, but it is well represented in effigies and paintings. Here we see a particularly elaborate one, featuring a grand bascinet type helmet. which offered even more protection than the bascinet seen in >>33353, due to the full metal gorget protecting the neck and collar and the bevor forming an single entity. Protective as it was, it didn't stick around for long though, and was soon abandoned in favour of the lighter and more mobile types such as the Armet and the Sallet helmet, the latter of which can be seen to be worn with the Gothic armour in >>32509. The grand bascinet remained popular as a tournament style helmet though, being worn when people would try to hit each other over the head with blunt instruments.
At the end of the 15th century and during the early 16th century, this style of armour became popular: the fluted armour or Maximilian armour, named after the Emperor due to his personal workshops at Innsbruck being quite famous for producing them. The helmet worn here is a closed helmet variant which emerged from the Armet, with a German bellows visor.
It should also be noted that the gaps, e.g. on the inside of the ellbows are covered with shifted plates now. Before that, it would have been covered with mail, as seen in >>32509. A particularly protective suit yet surprisingly mobile suit was made for Henry VIII at his personal workshops at the beginning of the 16th century in Greenwich seen here.
Wrong picture. This too is a Greenwich armour, but a later one from the Elizabethean period. This one is the right one.
I thought early saxes were pretty uch one kind of metal, and later ones were pattern welded, which is sort of the opposite as swords were? or maybe im just thinking in Norse examples.
that would kind of jive with Saxes being a commonor's thing and later, they came into vouge with richer classes and the who's who wanted fancy ones
Shit i dont know i wasnt there
The Shan Wen Jia is heavily depicted in Chinese Culture and is pretty much the most Classic armor there is and is to East Asia what Greco-Roman Armor is to Europe.
Ergo I find it somewhat meh nowadays. Earlier/latter Chinese armor styles are whats more interesing
I mean its the most Normie of Chinese armors
I'm fairly certain if a blade gets past a certain point in length it needs to be pattern welded in order to have structural integrity - at least if it's made with the material you get out of an early medieval bloomery oven. Shorter saxes could easily be made of mono-steel (which still had to be folded for homogenisation of course) while longer ones required more elaborate means of construction. Also, I'm not certain to which extent pattern welded weapons were unaffordable to commoners. It's not like the technique was super hard or something, countless knife makers - even hobbyists - today can do it, so a professional weapon smith should be able to do it just fine. Not to mention that the societies weren't "as" feudal back then, in the regard that farmers were also often sworn warriors to a household, required to be properly armed, etc.
Mesoamerican armour must have seemed otherworldly to Europeans.
a drop point and later broken back type sax was not really popular in scandinavia. they were more a clip point, or mostly, flat back like a modern machete.
thats not to say an individual couldnt have picked one up in his travels or from trade.
personally the way the lamellar plates are position in Chinese armour has never really looked all that nice to me. neither does the later giant coloured pointy blanket with metal plates bolted inside.
the triangular raised metal spikes offer something that does look nice to me while being different to the mostly chain and plate I'm familiar with.
but I can understand if someone whose more familiar with the stuff might find it boring.
>neither does the later giant coloured pointy blanket with metal plates bolted inside.
You mean the Yuan-Ming-Qing Period Brigandine? Shit was based, Anon, the latter models even came with a bulletproof cuirass.
so you're working on your farm and this guy rides into your village demanding tribute
what do you do
keep in mind that he can shoot arrows at you while retreating and dedicates his life to glory of the king of kings
I give him his tribute, and then some, as I am a proud citizen of the Sassanid Empire who also dedicates his life to the Shahanshah.
looks like it is going in between the gaps.
pic is mongol mace, just for thread
>wrapping a hard, carbon rich edge steel around a more ductile core steel
I believe the softer steel is wrapped around a harder core steel so the core steel is what the edge is comprised of. That's how san mai is done in modern Japanese cutlery, anyway.
Reminder that wearing an armor in the age of cannonballs wasnt a good idea
I guess the resistance to chipping on the blade edge from softer steel was more desirable, as it's similar in cutlery made to cut harder material. So the harder steel on the inside is primarily for resistance to bending, I assume. If not, what, and would there have been other advantages besides that?
Also, are there results of HRC tests on these sorts of blades online, or are the steels used even hard enough for that scale?
Illustration of the "push of the pike"
This is a history board, friend
Europeans fighting a cave bear about 30,000 years ago.
>This is a history board, friend
oh no, one of those semgmentata was only parade armour cocksuckers.
Please kindly leave and take the Japanese armor was made of wood, and the civil war wasn't about slavery fags with you.
>nah, the poofyness of it always makes it look more like a toddler who mummy just finished dressing up for going outside in the cold and less like war armour.
Protected you way better than Shan Wen Jia ever did. The Shan Wen Jia, for example, sucked at the arm protection department. Meanwhile the Late Chinese Brigandine had a Manica-style vambrace for your arms.
And its bulletproof.
I love the minimalist style of the Greeks. Cover vitals with heavy bronze, and keep the rest bare for agility and temperature control.
Not sure what culture this is from, but it does make the wearer look awfully dumpy.
Greeks take poopoo on Persian dogs
>Protected you way better than Shan Wen Jia ever did
he's quite literary covered in blanket of plates, I’m sure it even rivalled or surpassed European plate in terms of protection goes but from a strictly aesthetic point, I just would not fug
belonged to that obese English king I believe
Do we actually know how medieval knights trained? I know we know a bit about the ancient world (Pentathlon in Greece, Vegetius descriptions in Rome, etc), but aside from the "7 Agilities", what did the training of a knight include?
I know people didn't do workouts like we did today (pushups, bench press, etc), but instead only trained the movements they wanted to be good at, with added weight.
For example: Running in Armor, Jumping and dancing in armor, fencing with weapons and shields heavier than what would be used in battle, etc.
Anything else? Maybe something more fleshed out like actual routines?
Also, does anybody have a translation of "de arte gymnastica" which apparently talks about just this?
Pic is self-explanatory, specialized polearms and shit
>semgmentata was only parade armour
Don't imply shit
>the civil war wasn't about slavery fags
Get the fuck out, reddit, that has literally nothing to do with anything
The fact that the two Romans depicted are wearing segmentata is bullshit enough, but the fact that one of them is wielding his sword backwards is double the retardation. Even more to that fact is that the Germanics are wearing nothing and appear to be punching ever
This is an arms and armor thread, post some actually relevant shit, jackass.
> it even rivalled or surpassed European plate in terms of protection goes
Looks entirely insignificant to me, I don't see what's so great about a coat of plates that just covers the entire body. Looks absurdly heavy and poorly proportioned too. That lack of armpit and arm protection triggers me. Correct me if I'm wrong or something, I'm curious.
Imagining the context of that pic confuses me
>useless crest in the shape of a hat
>cheecks sculpted into beard
>cuirass sculpted into nipples
Also, if you add the greaves and consider that the shield protected the thighs, the only unarmored part of the body was the striking arm, which was hidden away until the attack. And all that bronze isn't light for shit.
It seems that most Europeans didn't bother with metal armor beyond a breastplate and helmet, if that, in Mesoamerica. They seem to have adopted the textile armor of the natives, since it was already similar to the gambesons they were wearing and wasn't as hideously uncomfortable.
>The fact that the two Romans depicted are wearing segmentata is bullshit enough
but it's not
>This is an arms and armor thread, post some actually relevant shit, jackass.
okay, how about I post some lorica segmentata, a historical correct armor that was used in battle.