Is Western Civilization on decline? Are there any commonalities between the state of the West and the state of other empires in the past (Roman, Egyptian)?
What causes civilizational decline?
>What numbers show us in decline?
Economic indicators (Asia is booming)
Quality of life is decreasing (lower middle class income)
Immigration is weakening social trust, fueling tensions
Morality is a thing to be remembered with a wistful smile while pondering dusty books (it surely is not evident in the media, nor in the behaviour of politicans)
Yes, not just in the embracing of multiculturalism and immigrants attacking western nations, but also in the decadence of culture now and the movement of industry from Europe to Asia. I am sure soon enough there will be massive civil unrest across europe.
>Asia is booming
That doesn't mean the west is in decline. There are billions of other people on this planet, did you expect them to remain poor and hungry forever?
Purchasing power is more important. It isn't that bad anyway.
>Immigration is weakening social trust
/pol/ memes, there are entire countries founded on immigrants and they are doing just fine.
>Morality is a thing to be remembered
Morality is subjective. If people didn't like their behavior they would have been removed long ago. I know we are on /his/ but you seriously have to stop looking at history with rose-tinted glasses.
>there are entire countries founded on immigrants and they are doing just fine.
That's because there is a majority of points of common values and common culture and identity.
In places were cultures are opposed to each other, for example in contemporary multicultural western europe, that statement is absolutely true: it is weakening social trust.
Also, i don't think the USA is doing fine.
/pol/ is right to be against immigration, they're just against it for the wrong reasons. Tens of millions of low-skill labourers are being imported even though automation will eat up tens of millions of low-skill jobs. They're already straining welfare services as it is. Mass immigration to the West is not a net benefit for the planet, it just makes the first world more closely resemble the third world.
Is this bait? Why can't people just be left to think what they think without morally superior neoprogressives imposing their views? I agree we should challenge our perceptions of the world at every opportunity, but what if we find that ideas transgressive to political correctness appealing?
Birth rates and the marriage crisis is a good indicator of decline. Fertility rates have dropped so sharply that some nations have problems with maintaining their population and at the same time people are starting to drop out of marriage altogether while divorce rates are incredibly high.
Obesity epidemics - gluttony is a HUGE (pun intended) problem in America where a significant part of the population is morbidly obese or atleast so overweight it's unhealthy and a burden to society.
Those two points are objectively bad for society in the long run and a lot of other signs of decline are based on opinion and one's personal philosophy - pacifism and atheism can be credit as decadence but that's highly subjective so let's leave it at the first two.
What I meant is what if somebody disagrees with prevailing groupthink, which at the moment is essentially summised by PC culture, at least in western europe?
Any intelligent person should be able to recognise that being anti political correctness isn't necessarily being /pol/.
Sorry I was eating
One of the bases of his theory is that: the culture depends entirely on economic infrastructure, not the other way around.
Marxism canot do a critique of the dominant culture and social superstructure without previously making an analysis of the underlying economic relationships, it's the opposite of the ''cultural marxism'' theory.
Gramsci disagrees with Marx in that matter
Normal and desirable is highly subjective and since you used the word degenerate I assume that you use the /pol/ definition where any activity or thing that doesn't remind you of your perception people from the 1950's molded by advertisements and consumer media is degeneracy.
>countries are based on immigration
There's inherently wrong about immigration , but when you have a welfare state that subsidizes retarded people who especially don't have a tradition of western freedoms to come into the country then you start having problems .
In the USA , if you came here (which both my parents did , so fuck off , from Croatia and Lebanon ), you actually have to work for a living .
In Sweden , you can live off government welfare , make the country to the 2nd highest rape capital in the world , and literally face no consequences because of "muh diversity"
Europe sure is fucked. I'm convinced they'll smarten up eventually but it'll be a hard row to tow for a while there. We'll probably see another fucking fascist government spring up and we colonials will have to save the day again.
The world is becoming increasingly Americanized, for better or worse. So I don't think western civilization is anywhere near the grave as of now.
Because it's materialist. It talks about the dynamics of the bourgeoisie and proletariat in terms of concrete economic existences.
You can't understand why the West is wrong to import workers, until you understand why they do it.
Western Birthrates are declining because we are trained from birth to think of ourselves as consumers. We are to take in as much money as we can, and make a series of rational choices to spend it and other resources (such as time) to maximize our own happiness.
This inoculates us against the desire to raise families. Families have moved from the center of our existence to a hobby you can pursue if you have the time, money, and inclination.
As you can imagine, an increasing number of westerners are finding different hobbies.
So rather then realize there's something wrong with the whole system, the ruling elite decide it is simpler to import fully made persons wholesale from other countries.
The Germans will take in millions of refugees, AND give them higher educations, because it is simpler than to spend 20 years raising a child and providing them with a higher education.
Or these "people" could group together in their own communities where they can live as uncivilized and immorally as they would like without having to feel bad for being criminals and cretins and causing a decay in society. I shouldn't have to worry about getting raped when I go down the street because I live around a "specific group" that have very unusually high rape statistic. I shouldn't have to lock my doors and sleep next to a gun because I worked to have nice things and I live around a group of people that have an astoundingly high violent crime rate.
Yeah, that's the definition of the term but it's misused so often people can hardly be blamed for not knowing about it.
>modern collectivist ideas
There's your Marxism - why add 'cultural' infront of it?
I'll be honest to what I consider the objective truth, but I won't shitpost you either.
Moral to me is objective to me , and I am a strong believer in Christianity.
So degeneracy = anything that contradicts Christian morals and traditional values.
The "highly subjective" argument makes us not go anywhere and we just end up debating what's subjective or not instead. So i'll be very frank about my opinion and no beating around the bush.
My favorite meme.
>expressing the wrong beliefs
That's the "put up with" part. Nobody likes a wannabe Hitler preaching to them how degenerate and non-human they are for being brown. It is basically the keep /pol/ in /pol/ rule applied to real life.
Wait, how does something being materialist Make it independant from culture? Cathars were very anti materialistic, western society is generally quite materialistic, and that is based off differing culture.
So people who hold a different point of view deserve torture? There is a difference between giving the autocratic right a hugbox so they don't bother people and actively surpressing their freedom of speech.
All these abstractions we recognise as 'Americanism' or 'Cultural Marxism' or 'Egalitarianism' are just projections of the inner defeat of Western man, originating from the revolutions of 1789 and 1848.
Being PC is how lefties try to shut down discourse. They have tried to make it where all they have to in their minds to win an argument is to spout the words racist, sexist, or go back to /pol/ in this case. This will ultimately backfire when they realize people aren't afraid to be called these things anymore because it has become so commonplace. The truth always comes to light no matter how bigoted the truth is
>They have tried to make it where all they have to in their minds to win an argument is to spout the words racist, sexist, or go back to /pol/ in this case.
I bet you believe sjw, JIDF and gb2leddit are completely different.
You're absolutely correct. I've just gotten so used to the blatant attempt at censorship from that area that I just threw it back in that general direction and that was wrong of me.
Can't speak of solutions to the extremely high violent crime, murder, or rape rates of a specific population without being called a racist, but meanwhile #killallwhitepeople is a thing
Progressives get to say that they have the official keys to Progress™ and that they are (politically) Correct™, but the Right can only say that they are technically Right™. So it's 2-1 and the left wins the NLP war.
You can speak about those things. Just don't let blind hate dictate your arguments like it did with the Nazis and the KKK. Everyone in academia knows poverty and social bias are the main factors for their suffering. Also twitter tags don't apply to the real world.
Why should your employer accept someone who absolutely hates half of the office for being women, brown or gay? Society doesn't like you because your behavior is antisocial. If you don't like the modern world you should just form your own little racist empire in the woods.
Same reason they should accept someone who hates half the office for being white, male, or cis. If they're not being a dick at work and can do their job, what's the fucking problem? What does "freedom of speech" mean when employers police your sociopolitical views and you need an employer not to starve?
And you go to jail or have your address posten in Bild so antifas can firebomb you if you question this.
We have been too rich for too long allowing too many leftist predisposed betas to grow from weak people living in comfort and protection.
>Wait, how does something being materialist Make it independant from culture? Cathars were very anti materialistic, western society is generally quite materialistic, and that is based off differing culture.
I don't mean this to offend you, but is English not your first language?
Sorry but modern science has debunked your theories in the 19th century. All you've got left is /x/-tier conspiracy theories about how jewish lizardmen are controlling science and the media as an argument.
>nobody's ever claimed IQ is the same across population groups
Nobody in the last century ever attributed it to race either. Find me a peer reviewed article claiming that and I will concede.
Race is the sum of differences between population groups that have had enough separation through tens of thousands of years to prevent homogenization.
This is entirely about your precious emotions re: the term for these divergent population groups - semantics- and I don't care. The earth is round whether we call it Earth or Gaia.
>no real scientific research
As expected. Also it is very clear this is about YOUR feelings. You have so little in life that you want the accomplishments of others to reflect well on you and desperately seek to be a part of a race of gods who are allowed to pour their anger on the subhumans.
Yet the statement "subjective morality" would also apply to a morality that simply regards these others as "wrong" or "evil", you could infer that, this is false or somehow incorrect using critical theory, yet the very foundation of falsehood or questioning is honesty and fact(of which we are attempting to apply an objective morality to by valuing these things) hence subjective morality invalidates itself, while the asserting morality is the most consistent within logical parameters.
/pol/lution likes to talk about "abbos" so why don't we talk about them. Studies show that aboriginal australians who aren't raped by parents or huff gas during adolescence grow up to score 115 on the standard australian IQ test.
Not surprisingly, these individuals also measure 177.83 cm in height exactly like the australian national average.
Scientific research on semantics? I'm sure it exists, but it isn't what you think it is.
>You have so little in life that you want the accomplishments of others to reflect well on you
You are projecting the oblate of your own pathology: getting your 10 minute hate on with anecdotes about how bad whitey is.
To the leftist, race is super very real for the duration of that 10 minute hate and super not real at all fingers in ear la-la-la the rest of the time.
There are recognized racial differences that have serious implication for people that no one disputes like effectiveness of medication and susceptibility to certain health problems, not to mention phenotypic differences.
But somehow it is impossible for intelligence to be different between groups, I wounder how populations separated for tens of thousands of years in a variety of different locations and climates, some more challenging to survive in then others, and yet their is no variation in human intelligence.
I would gladly accept a credible source
Or even more astonishing to tiny /pol/ troglodytes: pygmies who are given a proper education end up even taller than white people in adulthood.
Nope. Hasn't been debunked at all.
Transracial adoption studies prove it too.
It is reaching the end of its lifecycle. Begins with conquest and ends 250 years later, same as any dynasty.
The same will happen when China takes charge (it has about 140 years left). It will make way for India, then India will make way for some other civilization.
I really don't think enough people understand how much of an issue this is. It's kind of like claimant change for the human body. Sure, it's not all that bad now, but if we don't fix it we're in for a ride.
It's an issue, sure, but at least unlike some sort of spanish flu outbreak, I can't catch their obesity. I guess I'm one of the few people who actually takes care of their body by eating right and working out and all that.
The worst part about fatfucks though is that even though they're unhealthy as fuck, they still don't die early. They just stick around hanging by a thread and wasting everyone else's money through entitlements like medicare/medicaid.
You know when conservatards are btfo when they don't reply with real science.
No, I want peer reviewed research that claims race is blamed for the gap in IQ scores.
>muh whitey persecution
Either bring in a real argument or fuck off with your butthurt. I know I touched a nerve but come on.
>There are recognized racial differences that have serious implication for people that no one disputes like effectiveness of medication and susceptibility to certain health problems, not to mention phenotypic differences.
Yes you are right that is documented science.
Nobody said it was, but until you have real proof that their race made them dumbshits you have no argument.
>>57125Sure, you eat right. But it used to be most people ate right, now they don't. Something changed in our culture or lifestyle that let that happen, so something might change to make it worse.
Rome was doing ok while the emperor was fucking other men. The gay thing started to become a problem when the emperor was the one getting fucked up the arse
Also the whole horse tribe people thing pushing German immigrants into Roman territory sounds a lot like Isis pushing refugees into Europe so you can probably say europes future will once again end in tears
Yeah, I know. It's all going downhill.
All I'm saying is that it's an individual choice. I could sit around in a raskal scooter all day and eat nothing but donuts like plenty of others. But instead I personally decided to get off my ass and start lifting and eating right. And anyone else can do the same thing.
The fact that obesity is so common says more about the mental fortitude of most people than anything else. But at least it's something that every individual can actually address if they're so willing. So I feel no sympathy for obese people
>Is Western Civilization on decline?
Yes and no.
There has absolutely been some backwards movement due to some horrible ideas which shaped our culture negatively, thinking strictly about feminism and its attempt to modify not the laws (which is acceptable) but the culture of western civilisation. This CRASHED birthrates, created a privileged class of white women who are preferred for virtually any job. Since women are simply not assured to be greater workers, this has decreased production, increased unemployment (especially amongst young men) and lowered western standards to the point that it's entirely feasible that very soon third world engineering will out perform western engineering.
>What causes civilizational decline?
A number of things...
Outright crash generally doesn't happen as often as you'd think and, historically, usually requires a HUGE displacement of population. For instance, the "sea people" completely displaced the native Mycenaeans and Minoans of pre-dark age Greece, because these new people were illiterate and hostile to the locals, they destroyed pretty much all advances of the pre-dark age Greece. Something similar happened in northern Italy with the Lombards (but who later conformed to the Italian culture) and Visigothic Spain, which in the grand scheme of things didn't change much considering the Bedouin invaders of the Ummayad caliphate set about rewriting their culture anyway.
You're a nigger?
Your culture was created by million dollar salary MTV execs to create a sub-culture marketable to a people they had zero respect for their intelligence, and you know what, the fact that so many African-Americans flocked to this fabricated, toxic culture kind of affirms their lack of respect for the African-American intelligence.
What are you proud of? No, really, what are you really proud of?
>modern science continues to reject
you sure senpai?
and a tl;dr
Yes. We are hitting resource limits while our political system is paralysed by high inequality. Same as Rome, but their resource was conquest.
Yes, generally. Gradually.
>Social and Income Inequality leading to growing calls for and interest in socialism.
>Identity Politics and Third Wave Feminism
>Political Correctness and Neo-Progressivism becoming institutionalized and becoming THE establishment.
>Declining Birth Rates and marriages for too long.
>Growing disillusionment to Eurocentrism
>Growing east Asian markets
>Displaced people from shit countries all heading to Europe or the USA
>Forced multiculturalism in traditionally homogeneous countries
>General greed and corruption in high places.
Decadence and complacency is what leads to the objective decline in Western Civs.
>aa culture was created by mtv folks
it comes from slavery and southern plantations you retard
and some african traditions passed down
i do agree that hip hop stuff is a evolutionary (more like devolution) of jazz though
No, it doesn't.
The way African-Americans acted, their music, their mannerism, their clothes and even the way they talked drastically changed in the 70s and 80s. Before that, you wouldn't have even recognised 1950s African-Americans as the same people, in fact I'd equate their culture as closest to some of the lower castes of India: downtrodden. subjugated, but otherwise a strong sense of community and a form of stoicism to keep them content.
Nowadays they're prolific complainers, they're racialised to hate white people and blame them for all their woes, drugs have become a real factor in their culture, ebonics which were effectively injected by rappers into many areas of African-American society made them almost non-mutually intelligible to other English speakers.
If you truly wish to understand the VAST fuckery MTV has played on African-American culture, compare reggae with hip hop, strictly from a thematic and cultural perspective. Reggae was in competition with hip hop as blacksploitation music, hip hop ended up winning out due to rappers being self-funded. Unfortunately, cocaine creates a lot more money than marijuana does.
Enjoy your ignorance.
From Miles Davis to Duke Ellington, all the black jazz artists of note were middle-class. Jazz is absolutely not the music of the black lower class, it's absolutely not something that has even had any influences on hip hop, besides maybe a distant influence on funk which was heavily "sampled" by hip hop. Stylistically? Absolutely nothing in common.
If you want a REAL culture in the decline, African-Americans are it. Since the 90s, they no longer needed MTV execs to popularise hip hop culture, they were doing it to themselves until today where the only socially acceptable escape from the ghetto African-Americans have are being a celebrity and selling drugs. Due to their heightened need for conformity and inherent distrust for white culture, African-Americans are likely beyond help.
>/mu/ explains cultural shifts
This always teaches me new things
He's saying he'll consider the evidence of the study you mentioned if you show the source to him, since nothing he's seen up to this point besides your post suggests this viewpoint. This is an actual chance for you to change someones mind about something, and instead you just call them a science denier and wave around an anti-/pol/ flag. JUST
No, it isn't, technology is improving, new scientific and medical discoveries are beig made, litteracy rates are extremely high, all infrastructures are there, western civilization is just fine and the western world is the best place where to live for the average human.
>western culture colonized the entire world
>all countries try to follow western model
>people actively risk their lives to be a part of western civilization
>guise, I think western civilization is dying
huge quantity of animal fat cause cancer, type II diabetes and make you fat for obvious reasons, sugar in itself isn't bad.
Also the needed quantity of fat for decent testosterone levels and working hormones in general is extremely low, so I'm not saying to avoid it completely but to try and eat very few of it.
Decadence, cultural excess, and economic stagnation.
You can argue that we have that now, but to be honest first world countries are so fucking rich because of all the luxuries afforded to us by our technology, infrastructure, and industry that it's hard to imagine reaching such a point where we can't reasonably sustain our lifestyles as a populous.
Even if we lose half of what we have now, we'd still be amazingly well off when you consider just how well off we are now.
Jesus Christ. So what. So fucking what. European Union has a population of 500 million. Even if all of these people were total keks like you, it's physically impossible to overthrow them for a minority that doesn't control the military.
You can prove anything wrong using critical theory. That's the point of critical theory man.
Fuck, you can prove critical theory wrong using critical theory if you shove a big enough stick up your ass.
Just saying that something can be disproven isn't really an argument against it. You actually have to disprove it, then someone has to understand and agree with the logic that you used to do so.
If I'm not addressing the point of your argument here, it's not because I'm trying to pick apart something insignificant. I just can't follow the narrative of that ungodly runon of a sentence whatsoever. I'm mostly trying to guess at what you were trying to say here.
>Is Western Civilization on decline?
Depends what "decline" means to you.
Traditionalist authors such as Julius Evola or his mentor René Guénon did argue almost 70 years ago that modern man is in a state of decline due scientific/technological culture that has stolen the mysticism/spiritual from the soul/psyche and replaced it with consumerism and materialism.
The modernists seek to reduce all higher principles and levels of reality to their manifestation in the world of multiplicity and relative material existence. Modern philosophy carries this out by reducing everything to the individualistic horizon of the subject and by relegating objective reality to the discursive constructions of the knowing subject.
In other words: welcome to Kali-Yuga
>What causes civilizational decline?
The Fate of Empires and Search for Survival by Sir John Glubb. Read it, love it, spread the medicine.
Only in the future can we look back at us the west and as a race and say with certainty what were are like and whether we were amid decline, stagnant, or comparatively prosperous. It is not worth squabbling over day by day changes because on the grand scale it's irrelevant.
Although the recent wave of immigration influx may seem as though an end-times harbinger of apocalypse, it may result in nationalistic interests rising, or it may sort of peter out. It's hard to say.
Degeneracy, cultural marxism, and ethnic impurities. It's all completely true, I have a couple Breitbart articles, blog posts, and 30 minute YouTube videos which explain the whole thing but I can't post them right now because I'm afraid of getting keked into a ban.
Crime is going down, life expectancy is going up, economy is relatively stable...we're doing alright.
This whole question is ridiculous, there's no real way to tell if your civilization is in decline while you're living in it.
Decline does not signify "habbening".
It signifies a steady erosion and a lack of vigour and mental poverty and of material abundance to compensate for it.
If the West prides itself on its technological advancements, that alone proves the thesis of decline.
Leftism and feminism is killing Western Europe now. You have hordes upon hordes of Muslims coming.
Fuck sake, you know have a projection of TWENTY MILLION muslims in Germany alone.
Fertility rates plummeting.
Lack of any consistent national narrative and mission (nobody buys >muh freedom anymore, not even americans).
Rampant Nihilism, complete lack of any substitute for religion.
Hysterical Materialism, americans prettry live to buy the next big thing.
Overspecialization of scholars/scientist, sometimes in worthless areas; extinction of polymaths.
Widespread hedonism (not even good hedonism like Epicureanism).
Destruction/Desestabilzation of the family and other smaller and more traditional institutions; complete reliance in the State.
Complete dependance on material development and dominance. Take that of Westerners and they don't have nothing.
Americans, please, don't make your decline embarrassing. Just fade away and let other nations with more vitality take your place (like the Chinese or the Russians). Look at Japan, they're what you should be aiming for.
I would welcome a violent overthrow of the government by the military.
Though if that were to happen it would sadly be controlled by billionaires and megacorporations intent on turning america into Brazil 2.0
yeah but then it would end up a clusterfuck of violent clusterfuck of military dictatorships that will slowly corrode our military and society to nothing (like Rome).
oh and we'll lose our democracy which was technically the whole point of our country.
How would you call it when you have a capitalism that produces communist culture? A capitalism in which everyone is part of the people and the burgeoise enemies are shady ghosts who no one can exactly point at, but we are ALL against them, we are ALL for the 'revolution', which 'will come, surely will come'
The world culture is a doom cult with marxist scenografy , aka, cultural marxism