ghost wanted to put his two cents in on this thread
i believe that socialist countries will eventually rule the world
in about a thousand years, were still in the early stages of late capitalism and were not likely to see another successful socialist revolution in our lifetimes
just a reminder that it took capitalism and democracy thousands of years to unseat feudalism and monarchy
Conjuncturally, something between Keynesian policy and the effort for worldwide political stability through international diplomacy. Structurally, let the chips fall where they fall. When the means of production become obsolete for the current societies, they will break apart. Until now, capitalism has shown that it is a very flexible model for most of its crisis.
currently downloading a torrent full of radical leftism
What may sound nice in theory? I'm waiting for a quote of what you are arguing against. Otherwise i'll be forced to think you don't know anything about marx's work and are just repeating things like a brainless drone. You wouldn't discuss something you know nothing about, would you?
Reminder that modern archeology completely BTFO the foundations of Marxism.
>muh religion is alienation that arises as a result of class polarization
Pic related, religion predates class-based societies therefore Marx was wrong and communism doesn't work, even in it's pure, unadultered form.
do not let those /pol/shits to take over this board plz
>anyone who disagrees with communism is from /pol/
You people are really that deluded?
When I was in jr high we were reading about Marx's predictions. Namely Russia would never go commie, and America would be the first. In 7th grade I postulated pretty much Hart's thesis on why America would never go commie.
So yeah, thanks for making shit easy enough a 7th grader could poke holes in it.
i won't discuss my "appreciation" of karl marx, seeing as that is not what this board is for, and this entire thread is a borderline rule violation, I will however discuss the life of Karl marx, as well as the historical significance of his writings.
is it true that Karl Marx himself was never actually a member of the working class? he was born to wealthy parents and lived off an inheritence his entire life, so i'm not sure how he was qualified to talk about the plight of the working class
Historical materialism is absolute trash that takes no account of subjective experience, cultural and intellectual development, national circumstances, military strategy, or anything else. It is among the worst historiographical perspectives ever and Marx was wrong on all fronts. Nothing he said would occur has occurred.
He also gets bonus points for being related to and funded by Rothschild bankers (and funded by other assorted industrialists as well). 0/10, would not theorize with.
This is how I feel.
Descriptive Marx (talking about how capitalism works, history of struggles etc.) was always right.
Prescriptive Marx (talking about how future socialism would work, classless society etc.) was always wrong.
Basically, don't try to predict the future. He was a genius though.
where do I go to learn about Marx without people trying to tell me how great or terrible he is?
I feel like I should know more about him than I currently do simply for the purposes of my own education
Despite the site name, it's actually a really good place for objective reading, marx is socially conservative much like proudhon which isn't surprising, and you'll find yourself to agree with him if you open up your mind from the skepticism caused by the west against communism.
>doesn't understand what a useful idiot is
>thinks USSR subversion plans matter after death of USSR
>posts Bezmenov as if he were a high ranking officer or something
>reminder that he was a lowly informant
stop embarrassing yourself m8, next you will be telling us all about le Frankfurt School conspiracy
>Slavoj zizec and marx
>All that sexuality and socio-political shit
JESUS CHRIST, This is why I don't want fucking /lit/ here either.
y'all need to read this book and realize he was just another political economist
It is objective, it's literally all of the written subjects by a lot of leftist economists, and you'll form your own opinion on the site as to what you think of the economic views marx had.
Don't be a dumb fuck.
Did Marx inadvertently save capitalism?
>Capitalism is horrible to the workers, if they're unemployed they starve, their wages are poor, their hours long and their conditions dangerous.
>Marxist groups spring up to fight this and get to communism.
>Those in power in most countries make small yields (Bismarck's welfare provisions, or similar changes in the UK.) while maintaining a largely capitalist economy. From there the welfare state slowly builds up into modern social democracies.
>Meanwhile Russia refuses to make sufficient changes (and couldn't really because it was so far behind) and goes red. Everyone calls it communist even though it's socialist (but trying to reach communism)
>Later, China also revolts.
>By the ~50s, but with the difference in quality of life growing all the time, it's plain to see that living standards in a social-democracy are higher than those of a communist society.
A lot of the parties that pushed for social democracy have Marxist roots as well, like the British Labour party. [Who still insist they're socialists, kek.]
>he was born to wealthy parents and lived off an inheritence his entire life, so i'm not sure how he was qualified to talk about the plight of the working class
The idea that one must be of a certain group to see that groups plight is ludicrous. (But very popular.), at the time Marx was alive it was reasonably common for the rich to start looking into the plight of the poor instead of assuming they were all poor through their own personal failure.
Even now, poor people who've made it into positions of power aren't the best to talk about poverty. They often ascribe some of their own luck to hard work and so make the very assumption that other poor people are lazy.
"When the axe came into the woods, many of the trees said, "At least the handle is one of us'"
He did a lot to advance the historical field in itself. Reading about kings and military commanders misses the big picture, which in many ways we have Marx to thank for having today.
However I do think I mix of the two is appropriate and more entertaining.
>Coming from the subjective perspective of the Marxists themselves.
Do you go into a historical archive and of a country, and go "HOLY SHIT THIS IS BIASED"
The way I used objective was to say it was a site not run by politically imitative, it's basically a archive of marxist economics.
>This is wrong. Only a minority of the writers within marxists.org are economists.
Explain further, I'd like to know what you mean.
>just open up your mind man
Dude, I'm a supporter of proudhon.
I'm not exactly saying this from subjectivity either.
>"The West" isn't the only anti-Communist force.
Now you're just nitpicking, mate.
>telling people to go to an archive with hundreds of writers without telling them what to read
>Hurr durr, people shouldn't be independent.
>You're embarrassing yourself and the Left.
I wouldn't say so, at least I don't go fucking autistic about a statement which was basically sending people to the same site you linked and literally boasted your narcissism to make yourself look impressive.
Jesus fucking christ.
>instead of discussing one of the most interesting individuals in the world, person who is imprinted in the societies collective memory as devil incarnate, it devolves into memes.
>Karl Marx thread
>instead of discussing the most polarizing philosopher of all time, it devolves into /pol/ shit slinging at each other.
This is what happens when you put /pol/ and /lit/ together.
/lit/ has some nice aspects but it is filled with narcissists, /pol/ is ignorant regardless of political wing and it starts a entourage of shitposting.
None the less the moderators obviously support this happening as the board rule is no racism.
You can see where 4chan is going.
It is really disappointing.
Are you serious?
You've spent most of your time criticizing me for sending people to the same site I posted in a simple matter, spend more then a few hundred words making angry replies that I'm wrong.
And I'm the narcissist.
I'll admit, I was wrong that it was just marxist theory, but what I''m trying to say is that (Using the actual etymology of the word) is that the archive is filled with different subjects of varying leftist ideals with some exceptions (Because apparently, this is crucial in a description since saying it in ANY OTHER WAY is apparently wrong in the case of highly functional autism) which makes a good source for matieral, because it isn't shadowed by a political motive and only storage of literature.
There, are you happy?
Fucking autists man, they're right about man-children.
Take a look at /v/ or /k/ and a lot of the more popular boards, and the majority of the low population boards.
For High Population.
They're over saturated with user moderation with odd exceptions in rules, which literal porn threads can stay up for a period long enough to have a nap, and unrelated topics and /b/ tier content is posted throughout, with a lot of new people and new fads coming in completely fading away the site's culture almost making it on pararell with tumblr and reddit, as examples.
For Low Population
Literal forum-like moderation, seems much more dedicated in purging, dissent is remove and a lot of the political statements are throughout socially progressive, mostly undereducated as well, large circle jerking and tripfagging isn't even shunned anymore.
Its become the complete antithesis of what this site originally stood for.
Legitimately, there is little to no difference as of now between forums and 4chan and I'll bet it'll get worse in the future.
I admitted my mistake in relation to my explanation of the site's content.
I'm not the one embarasing myself, I've actively stated twice that I'm not a marxist and you've shown through your posts that you've quite obviously got high levels of narcissism.
>By talking like you actually know what you're talking about makes Marxists in general look like we're like you. Stop.
Do you think this actually works?
Nigger, you can't fucking tell people to stop when you are insulting them.
Especially when you're using ad ad populum and trying to shame me emotionally when I couldn't care less.
This is why /lit/ is fucking cancer.
Based Karl "The Commie Tsunami" Marx would have probably disliked the Soviet Union. Some of the biggest scholars in Marxism said so early into the Bolshevik revolution. Guys like Karl Kautsky. But we forget about them because both the Soviets and Americans wants us to think that socialism/communism = Soviet Union.
Religiosity decreases as material prosperity and education increases.
20th century communism didn't work. Capitalism was still too young and growing, and communism, or the road to communism, will only work at the breaking point of Capitalism as Marx also said
I think we still haven't figured out a form of communism that will properly work, no. But of course 20th century communism was dominated by leaders and revolutionaries that were too present. You can't do communism by force, of course, but the road to communism is dependent on a state that is stable, but that gradually less and less visible
Exactly how can you have any sense of what its like to work everyday and in those times 10 hour+ shifts with hardly a place to sit or a lunch break while you're sitting comfy in your chaie writing about how to fix everything for them.
That's why his work has inspired only regimes that profit, oppress and exploit the woking class. In no way shape or form does his work fix anything.
Look at politics, and you'd know this to be true if you have lived in south america, that socialism and communism are simply empty promises that give them votes to rule another term.
this, if it is discussion on his books then this thread should belong on /lit/. if it's about appreciation and support for his ideas or criticism and hatred of his ideas then it should belong on /pol/ or a leftist thread on /b/. communism threads are a beacon for lefty/pol/ and than the inevitable /pol/ onslaught, not to mention the Eastern Europeans you find on /pol/ and /int/ who really really don't like the soviet union.
>it's not /pol/ to circle jerk over extremist ideologies as long as they aren't right-wing
Yes, this will be ironic, but let's stop making posts that just bemoan the influence of this or that board. If somebody's trying to shit up a thread, it's better to ignore them or refute them than to shit up the thread even more with whines.
Also, I'm no Marxist, but I think a philosophy and history board is pretty obviously where a thread about Karl Marx goes. He was a philosopher, and his ideas had a huge influence on the course of history. He's also, whether you like it or not, an integral part of the humanities in its current form.
His ideas saved tens of millions more.
The German Social Democratic Party created the first welfare state which has been adopted by every Western nation in the world and saved countless tens of millions of people from certain death and squalor.
The German Social Democratic Party got all of their ideas about capitalism from Marx.
Yeah, sure thing, mate. If it didn't happen in the 19th century, it won't happen in the 21st.
Because racism is elitist and Marxism empowers the unwashed hordes or some bullshit.
How did he set back humanity, socialist governments have been responsible for a lot of scientific achievement and his theory of dialectical materialism is incredibly useful when looking at social movements even today
Are you are retarded modern liberal or do you think you're not a liberal?
>Marxism killed more people than racism
And yet it clearly wasn't enough.
>Reminder that Stalin literally did nothing wrong
60 Million is not even a real number, the number was about 5 million due to famines, of which there is no physical record of Stalin intentionally doing.
Pinochet was a pretty awesome, was that meant to be an insult? Right up there with Strossener.
Better then believing in Marxism, akin to creationism, and giving its believer the false impression that they are "intelligent" and "reasonable"
>"dictatorship is okay when i do it"
>"i am a champion of liberty"
>Marx was wrong
Through history economic transitions have been based on social emancipation and increasing economic representation. The lower class will overtake the upper class.
Marx theorized that this system would mean the collective ownership of the means of production. This merely means the people who work get the benefits. It's not that difficult
>Guy is barely making a profit
>Still manages to have more money than all his workers
That would be great if the shop owner was making as much as his workers, but no factory worker is a millionaire.
Its true though. Take a business class, they'll make it clear - you make a very low profit margin on each product. The idea is to sell so much product you end up raking in millions.
(Also, the comic - both the original and the edited - ignore the difference in ownership, which usually has tons of wealth, and management, which is usually wealthy but not shareholder level wealthy)
>Reminder that Marx wrote the best book on how capitalism works that is still relevant today
>Marxism is the only thing Capitalism could evolve into?
Marx never said that, desu. He was not determinist. He bets that communism would come from a post-capitalist society, but just that: a bet.
Source: history hasn't proven him right.
No revolution was successful at implementing even the most basic form of socialism
Workers in the 21st century know about value added, but understand that it isn't exploitation: it is a compensation for the risk of investing and a motivation to produce.
Command economies have been proven to be more innefecient than those based on markets
People living in socialist societies didn't change their profit-minded culture, a necessary step for the achievement of true communism
There is probably a lot more.
I think what's so disgusting about Marxism is how it rejects the realities of life. No wonder every single prediction failed. No wonder every communist society failed. Nothing about these failures are ever surprising. I don't just hate Marxism, I reject the axioms its built upon.
>No revolution was successful at implementing even the most basic form of socialism
> I think what's so disgusting about Marxism is how it rejects the realities of life. No wonder every single prediction failed. No wonder every communist society failed. Nothing about these failures are ever surprising. I don't just hate Marxism, I reject the axioms its built upon.
Read the communist manifesto
It's really short, but pretty much lays out his ideas really simply. I don't know where you live but I managed to find a copy at my local library. Or you could read the capital but it's really dense and talks a lot about certain economic structures that just aren't around anymore.
>the risk of investing
How many people die of workplace deaths a year in workplace accidents in blue collar jobs?
How many executives die of workplace deaths a year by working on wall street (excluding cocaine overdoses)
What do you consider riskier?
>No revolution was successful at implementing even the most basic form of socialism
you could arguee the french revolution was not marxists, but it had the same class struggle behind it
not only that, but not every marxists theorists opposes the free market
No, no he wasn't. Irrelevant either way, because Chile is the closest to a first world nation, and its still growing.
Although as Eastern Europe shows, the choice of leader is irrelevant. It's the genetic and cultural traits of its population that matter in the end.
>"socialism" that didn't last more than a year
>removing Chavez from the pic after the fuck up of that is Venezuela
>none of them manage to create a proper stable society
>fucking Subcomandante Marcos
Is that the pinnacle of socialist achievement?
>the choice of leader is irrelevant. It's the genetic and cultural traits of its population that matter in the end.
culture is a spook, and how are you arriving to the conclusion that chile is better than other south american nations based on genetics?
You realize that was made as satire? And then expanded by /leftypol/ autistic fucks who took it seriosuly.
There has to be a compensation, or else there would be no motivation to produce, since businesses have a risk of failing.
Workers are free to seek jobs somewhere else or create their own companies if they are not happy.
Go on strike and negotiate better work conditions with yours employers if you have no other choice. As long as the government doesn't interfere, it's all good.
So successful that people try to flee on makeshift boats.
Not even Haitians want to live in Cuba, they prefer to cross the entire continent to migrate to Brazil than to cross a bay and live in the socialist paradise.
Oh yes, seems like heaven on Earth. Is that why so many cubans try to flee to the "evil imperialist corporate-dominated" countries?
>Go on strike
What is the unionization rate in the United States? And how many unions aren't just Keked into mediocre contracts because on a working class salary you can't stop working for a month?
ITT /leftypol/ tries to co-opt /his/, screeching that anyone who dislikes Marx's crusty ass is a /pol/ack who needs to get off their new board
Aaaaand even with mods deleting /pol/-tier posts, they're still getting BTFO. Surprise surprise.
>tfw this board won't make it past the trial period
Is it so fucking hard for people to leave out their personal politics and talk about something objective that we can agree on or at least come to an understanding on together. No one comes on 4chan to have their mind changed, so give up
Do you not know anything. Illegal immigration didn't start in the way it is now until the PRI implemented neoliberalism
When it was somewhat left wing people stayed there. Now the southwest is full of refugees.
Jesus Christ you don't really think that do you?
how exactly are you arriving to the conclusion that the US imposing a dictator in chile is a cultural trait of the chilean people
>/pol/, /lit/ and /leftypol/ users
who else would? r9k or fit?
Except when they didn't.
Marx wanted to kill every bourgeois. Replace the word "jew" with bourgeois and "aryan race" with proletariat in Hitler's speeches and you end up with something which sounds a lot like marxism.
I'm not a /pol/ack. Jesus christ are you marxists so fucking moronic that anyone who doesn't support your pathetic failure of an ideology is a stormfag?
The US helped, but the Chilean Congress itself called for the overthrew of Allende because he fucked up with the Constitution and the people was jubilant when Pinochet finally did the coup.
>the chilean congress
doesnt mean shit, Allende was democratically elected
>Don't give a fuck
you should, sonce you thought you knew what you were talking about
he let extrernal investors exploit the country, do you know who owns most of chilean industry?
>I thought commies hated free trade.
not my problem you are unaware of modern socioeconomic ideologies
Rhodesia doesnt even exist now, if you belive what is left og Rhodesia is better than Cuba you are retarded
>doesnt mean shit, Allende was democratically elected
Are you trolling?
Do you also believe that Hitler suspending human rights in Germany was legitimate, since he got to power democratically?
>No, no he wasn't
Yes he was, he only was overthrown because he didn't want to pander to America's interests.
Yes, he was a jew.
And an anti-semite.
Bobby Fisher was a Jew and an anti-semite.
It's hilarious you don't know how he wrote about his hatred of his own "putrid race"
Want me to dig up the facts or you want to Google it?
He was overthrow because the Chilean people didn't want to live under communism. I know it's hard for you to understand that, since everyone at your college campus thinks that communism is utopia, but not everyone agrees with you.
>comparing a few weeks of social reforms to Hitlerian dictatorship
odd way to spell "american government"
>Are you trolling?
do you understand what you have been doing?
lets greentext it
>chile is growing because of chilean genetics and culture
>asked to back this up
>the US imposed Pinochet
>the US only helped, the chilean congress wanted to overthrow Allende
the chilean congress and the military were the ones who made the coup, backed up by the US
remind me again how Pinochet is proof that the chilean genetic and culture wanted him, when the chilean people, (guided by their culture and genetics according to your way of thing) ELECTED Allende???
This anon is correct.
Marxism is a revenge fantasy whereby the communist imagines himself the victim of a plot created by wealthy people to keep him down, just as Nazism is a revenge fantasy whereby the Nazi imagines himself the victim of a plot created by Jews to keep him down. Both have the end results, with Nazis measuring your skull and Marxists measuring the proletarian content of your soul to decide if they're going to allow you to exist in their utopia or not.
Ultimately, Marx is a retard for being a utopian theorist, because utopias are, by their very definition, impossible, because humans will always be imperfect beings. But keep on believing human beings are like clay you can mold to your will, you lovable fascists, because it's right when you do it!
>dictatorship of the bourgeoisie
>every vote counts the same as every other vote
>statistically the bourgeoisie are outnumbered but muh socialist paradise never comes about therefore its a dictatorship
But anon, you don't understand, it's alright when communists disregard democracy!
statistically the bourgeoisie are outnumbered but muh socialist paradise never comes about therefore its a dictatorship
With campaign contributions, and the money race. Politicians getting bought
Keep believing in it though, the bourgies need people like you to stay alive
This board needs some /pol/, you are literally defending an ideological hater who turned half the world against the other and has been responsible for literally 100% of the deaths in the world except for the WWI
The American government is not some magic institution, if they didn't had local support, they wouldn't be able to do anything.
>Marxism is a revenge fantasy whereby the communist imagines himself the victim of a plot created by wealthy people to keep him down, just as Nazism is a revenge fantasy whereby the Nazi imagines himself the victim of a plot created by Jews to keep him down
no, you are the one who doesn't know what the bourgeoisie is
i can understand a black man being national socialist, as it doesn't imply him being killed, but a kid with a computer being marxist?
oh my god, you are either suicidal or have deep autism
>"I THINK he was going to be a dictator based on a few weeks of social reforms"
>"therefore I am justified in ACTUALLY installing a military dictator"
>the US a gud boi
>he didnu nuffin
>he was just helping rebels agints a tyranical goverment (who was democratically elected)
i wonder who that could be...
Socialists have always argued for a global revolution because capitalism is a global force. Being cut off from the global movement of goods is of course destructive for any economy and no international socialist denies that.
you literally believe that in a world-wide class war someone with a computer is the people?
how retarded are you? do you know how many people are there in the world? do you know how many have computers?
also, you most surely are a native english speaker, prolly american, do you know what that means?
Tell me then, what is the end of history? Why would the world not be heading to an ultimate goal if that place was not The Best Place Ever, aka communism? Who is the "new man" that communism will create? You're an idiot if you think he wasn't utopian.
You really think money wins elections? Trump right now has spent the least of all Republican candidates, and he's in the lead.
You Marxists are all the same. You can never be disproved, because your theory says if it's disproved then it's someone else's fault. Your threshold for falsifying other theories is so goddamn low as to be laughable, but your threshold for falsifying Marxism is literally IMPOSSIBLE to reach. You know what we call things that can't be disproved in social science, such as psychoanalysis? A load of shit. You're all a bunch of retards, smug retards at that.
>le piggy maymay
/leftypol/ get the fuck out. Mormon preachers have more decency than you motherfuckers, proselytizing everywhere.
>No I was not THINKING that
Then go ahead and provide proof of Allende's impending dictatorship. I don't have to demonstrate that your dictatorship existed, because you don't even deny that.
>you literally believe that in a world-wide class war someone with a computer is the people?
That sentence doesn't even make sense
> do you know how many people are there in the world? do you know how many have computers?
What does owning a computer have to do with anything?
>How is sitting on your ass deciding what to invest in worth 7-11 figures ethical again?
Because you aren't coercing anyone. Capitalism is entirely voluntary. That's what you stupid faggots fail to understand.
owning a computer shows what side you are on in the class war m8, you are a burgeoise hipster bullshiter, that's what you are, and i know it cause you are not getting weapons to latin american slums protesters, you are posting on an internet's international basket weaving forum
>marx was radical left
>an ideology based on marx is not related to a thread about karl marx
Socialists nations can and have engaged in international trade, even though they encourage workers in capitalist nations to eventually seize the means of production and also install socialism.
You're ignoring my point. What is the end of history? Who is the new man? Why is it the best system ever devised? Why has everything led up to this system? Why will nothing ever improve past communism, because communism is the best? Why is all of that not utopian?
You can fuck off into the woods and live without capitalism if you'd like.
You're the invader here friend. I've wanted a /his/ board ever since I could shitpost on /tg/. I hate fascists, neo-Nazis, communists, and Marxists. Get at me.
His whole appeal is "muh immigrants, muh jobs in China." Christ, just pay attention to how CNN blasts him for his "xenophobia." You see what you want to see, regardless of if it's there or not. This is why Marxists are idiots.
You enjoy luxuries the likes of which most of the world is divorced from. You are, globally speaking, bourgeois as fuck anon.
> WAAA, PPL DON'T THINK LIKE ME WAAAA
Never said that, cunt. Never even implied it.
> if /pol/ is kill we take this subreddit
Never said I wanted /pol/ to be deleted. Just that you stay on your fucking containment board.
>Having luxuries makes you bourgeois
You can make this shit up, that doesn't make it true. So are you only not bourgeoisie if you're living in squalor in public housing?
You're so classkeked it's not funny
Trump is winning now but he won't win the general unless he spends more than anyone else in the general, that is if he gets nominated
What's the point of responding to you, you're literally the stupidest person ever to call me stupid
China have committed more crimes than most commie countries and nobody gives a shit because they still have economical ties with other countries. But God forbid some country like Cuba try to make its own economy without any legal restrictions.
>You can fuck off into the woods and live without capitalism if you'd like.
what kind of retarded logic is this?
Can a dogmatic/heterodox marxist answer me something:
How is a socialist nation supposed to control the flow of production and efficiently respond to the needs of the population?
What even are supposed to be the individual needs of the population and how can wealth be effectively shared?
How can the means of production even be used outside of the capitalist system that created them in the first place?
Those are some hot opinions anon.
>I'm not bourgeois if I say I'm not
You are, speaking globally, among the richest of the rich. You are in the top 5% of income for the entire world. So yes, anon, in that sense you're right. You're not of the bourgeoisie. Now go and give everyone your money you filthy benefactor of capitalist privilege.
>he who spends the most wins
It's never a guarantee. Jeb has spent the most out of the Republicans and his campaign's shit. Hillary has the most out of all the candidates, but Sanders has more grassroots support and Hillary's scandals are blowing up. Money is not the deciding factor in an election, the candidates and their ideas play a very, very big role. You can strut around like a 10th grader who thinks they know how the world works and that everyone else is less enlightened than you, but your "wake up sheeple" attitude doesn't make you right.
Go on, fuck off to a commune and live without capitalism. You can do it, anon. But I've chosen to live in a country that's benefiting from a market system, don't take that away from me by destroying it.
Ever since it was The Right One, anon.
>Ever since it was The Right One, anon.
wew, how is this determined like?
science is usually something like working out the nature of reality. the fact "scientific" socialism calls itself that when it fails to uphold basic scientific methodology is laughable
you ought to read him. in all but a few very brief hypotheses on the distant future, his work is incredibly dry economic treatise. those hypotheses are not essential to his work because he eventually rejected his earlier belief in the inexorable arrival of communism. communism is merely a potential system and one which he believes would be optimal. he predicted the collapse of capitalism, yes, but what he could not see was that government intervention would aid in prolonging its lifespan: see the recent bailouts. this is in stark contrast to the utopian socialists that marx distanced himself from, who believed they could create a perfect system or believed in its inevitable arrival. it's fairly ironic to post an image of an american founding father when decrying marx's "utopianism", given that the majority of american founding fathers believed themselves to be acting in accordance with divine providence.
>Just that you stay on your fucking containment board.
>Never even implied it.
You are right now
"you have a containment board cause your opinions are wrong and you should not talk to me so i don't have to listen to stuff i don't like"
So that would make you a right-libertarian? I'm sorry to tell you that your ideology is even more utopian than communism. Capitalism is rarely if ever voluntary and greed wins out if left unchecked. I'm not a communist btw, but you people are getting annoying.
Project Cybersyn, anon.
>Project Cybersyn was a Chilean project from 1971–1973 during the presidency of Salvador Allende aimed at constructing a distributed decision support system to aid in the management of the national economy. The project consisted of four modules: an economic simulator, custom software to check factory performance, an operations room, and a national network of telex machines that were linked to one mainframe computer.
>The system was most useful in October 1972, when about 50,000 striking truck drivers blocked the access streets that converged towards Santiago. According to Gustavo Silva (executive secretary of energy in CORFO), using the system's telex machines, the government was able to guarantee the transport of food into the city with only about 200 trucks driven by strike-breakers, recouping the shortages caused by 40,000 striking truck drivers.
>After the military coup on September 11, 1973, Cybersyn was abandoned and the operations room was destroyed.
>implying people have not tried to fuck and live in a commune
>implying that, in the case of latin america, the stablishment has let them do so
stop being retarded pls
>don't take that away from me by destroying it.
funny coming from someone who supports pinochet, who took Chile's national industry and sold it to external investors
>implying communes weren't experimented globally in the 60s by hippies world-wide and all didn't end in dictatorships of whomever was the most carismatic in the group
leadership and vertical structures of power are just natual
This is my last response to you
You're a keked waste of my time. Enjoy your liberalism while it lasts
"Middle Class" =/= Bourgeoisie
nah, marxists are stupid beyond belief, some fascists are too, but literally all marxists i have known in my life would have been killed/enslaved if their utopian dream happened
at least fascists want to keep alive
Fascists are not even a factor, its retarded anaclaps who think capitalist wont thread on them without a state
>Implying that number has into account servers, businesses and other cases where there are a thousand cables for a single person
>implying the real number is not roughly 30%
>implying that 30% is not distributed amongst the top burgueoise of the world
>implying middle class of europe or us is world's middle class
>implying you aren't a fucking hipster burgeoise like all internet communists
>implying burgeoise means elite
you are too fucking stupid
>that would monitor production indicators (such as raw material supplies or high rates of worker absenteeism) in real time, and alert the workers in the first case, and in unnormal situations also the central government, if those parameters fell outside acceptable ranges
ah yes, in a socialist country, exploration of the proletariat by the bourgeousie is completely gone!
Instead you get explored by the state and its all encompassing computer network!
Its a world not even Orwell could've imagined!
Can you actually prove him wrong? Marxists never deal with this, but several political scientists have established that rule by an elite is inevitable within any society as part of the tactical and technical necessities of organization.
See the work of Gaetano Mosca, Vilfredo Pareto, Robert Michels, James Burnham etc. Do Marxists have an answer for that other than "if I ignore it it will go away"?
Marx is great desu senpai
>the commune system is against social hierarchy
>hippies smking weed in the 60's is the equivalent of a socioeconomic experiment
good god is this fucking nigger serious
Yeah, I'm sure the CIA smuggled printing presses into Santiago and began printing money like crazy to pay for their importation of wheat caused by the CIA themselves sending locusts to destroy the harvest.
The Allende government’s budget deficit was 15%, 25%, and 30% of GDP in the years 1971-73. That's an economic collapse in a unprecented scale. Greece at its worst in 2009 hit 15% of GDP. If the United States had budget deficits equal to 30% of GDP, that would amount to $5 trillion — more than three times the actual US budget deficit at its nominal peak in 2009.
That can't be blamed on the US either, it was pure and sheer incompetence.
>letting people freely live by cooperation without the pressure of socioeconomic factors outside of themselves does not prove any natural qualities of human organizations
for fuck's sake, what do you want? a big lobby of marxists scientists behind it to make sure it works?
its literally the best way to do the experiment, and the result, even if you don't like it, is obvious: humans are pack animals, pack leaders always arise, we are not social animals, we are not ants
>you are bourgeois
I am middle class as best and in my country is like being poor in a first world country, so my position won't be worse than what I am living nowadays. I would join a commie revolution if I could, though.
Libertarianism is not utopian, because it doesn't promise that life will be perfect, just better. It even says that some people will lose out (as when an unfaily regulated business is deregulated, its owners and workers will lose out), but it doesn't promise that once Big Guv is gone then life is sunshine and rainbows.
I never once said anything about Chile in this entire thread, but alright faggot.
I would respond but >>68845 has already rekt you. Face it, you are among the elite of the world. Did you conspire to keep third worlders poor, anon? Did you? Is it your fault? Give them all your money, be washed of all your sins.
>certain death and squalor
and now the world is filled with welfare queens and sluth is at an all-time high.
And for some reason we need even more immigrants.
Thank god for marxism wether it is economical or cultural
the word your looking for is computational finance not quantum finances m8.
and using computers to accurately value stocks=/=using computers to completely control the entirety of a countries economy and therefore its society
I'm not a lolbertarian either m8. Nice attempt though
i haven't claimed that capitalism is scientific
but "scientific" socialism that's just being pretentious
in a thousand years the laws of motion will still be true, but the theories of marx won't be
Good. Shill your shitty ideology elsewhere, and I'll keep my sperging libertarianism out too.
I just want to shitpost about Rome and knights, man, not argue with ideologues.
The literal dictionary definition is the middle class. And you guys are the chucklefucks who invented it. Are you high?
>leftards have infested /his/
>righttards have infested /pol/
>tfw both sides want to censor each other in order to make their respective boards into retarded echo chambers
While I do not support Karl Marx (i'm from ex-commie east yurop though so I might have bias) I think that censoring and reporting each other's opinions (either extreme right or extreme left) is really fucking wrong and is against the very point of 4chan (i.e. unfiltered anonymous discussions).
By the way, I think generals are great for containing common topic inside threads in order to give breathing room for other, less common threads.
>pol wants you to marry a pretty woman who can cook, fuck, take care of kids, is intelligent, fun, supportive, and not a slut
>pol wants you to have kids of your own blood and continue your linage
>pol wants you to stick on your land and make your country great by not getting tricked by globalism into spending your bucks somewhere else
>pol wants you to preserve your unique culture instead of grabbing "the world's one"
>pol wants you to be fit, well fed, not drugged
>pol wants you to excell in multidisciplinary fields
>pol wants you to be nice to animals and other people
>pol is the bad place in 4chinz
He is still paying them to maintain, repair and extract the material.
How are you guys so freaking retarded.
Do you think the workers will do all this for free? They have families to feed. The CEO put everything in place and more often than once started this company from scratch. The only reason you arent starving to death is because of them you commiekek
In Marxist dogma, the "burgie" are those that own the economic means of production.
So unless he owns a factory along with his laptop and internet connection, no, he isn't bourgoies by his own definitions.
Its just a shame he's a dumb Marxist cunt too stupid to defend himself.
a better argument is that the proletariat/bourgeousie contraposition makes no sense in 21st century post-indutrial tardocapitalism
normal academic marxists are annoying, but the orthodox marxists like the ones in this thread are the worst. they're just like your average /pol/ national-socialist or lolbertarian: incapable of producing a minimally deep thought about the very own ideology they expouse
>a better argument is that the proletariat/bourgeousie contraposition makes no sense in 21st century post-indutrial tardocapitalism
kek, but is not, thats just a shill to make you support marxism until the revolution comes and they cut your head off
its the people who decides who is burgeoise, not a leader nor a set of rules, you are literally on the will of the guy with the gun, who has had his hatred fed and legitimized by communist ideology
I don't want them censored, I want them to realize that /his/ is a place for history, not "WAKE UP SHEEPLE COMMUNISM IS YOUR SAVIOR." If I encountered a thread where /pol/acks were doing the same thing, but with neo-Nazism, I'd be just as pissed. Fuck off with trying to proselytize ideologies, this is not the place for it.
You don't post clop on /po/, you don't post book reviews on /ck/, and you don't post non-historical bullshit on /his/.
Ideological arguments in history, aka "interpretations," such as Marxist interpretations, do not seek to understand history but to make use of it in propaganda. They are uninterested in history besides as a means to their selfish ends. As a historian, I cannot abide by it, I hate to see something I love - the pursuit of truth and understanding of the past - abused for something as sleazy as political mudslinging.
The consumer has always existed, so that means everyone is a bourgeoisie nowadays I suppose. That Indian dirt farmer who bought an iron hoe for his farm? Dirty burgie scum.
I'm just clarifying his own internal logic on his behalf. Not claiming its sensical or right, its clearly wrong, but its important that the actual meaning of the words he uses be clarified (since he obviously can't do it himself)
>he wants politics in a completely unrelated board
This shit's why /tg/s still the best board for history despite there being a board dedicated to it.
This whole thread, I mean. It should have just been posted to /pol/ or /leftypol/.
The longest life expectancy anyone had until about seventy years ago was during the paleolithic period. The lowest was during the Ancient Greek/Roman period, then the Industrial Revolution.