This thread is dedicated to Our Lady. Theotokos. Mary Mother of God. Post icons, paintings, music and so on glorying Our Mother.
So Protestants don't think Mary is the Mother of God:
But isn't that implicit Nestorianism? I don't see how it couldn't be. Could a Protestant explain to me how that isn't Nestorianism?
Can we post good ones or just Orthodox art?
You can post whatever you want. I'm Orthodox, but the art I posted in the OP isn't. The Orthodox Church prohibits realism in art as its modernist (not in art in general, I just mean in Church sponsored art and art used for religious devotion at home).
>The Orthodox Church prohibits realism in art as its modernist (not in art in general, I just mean in Church sponsored art and art used for religious devotion at home).
Yes, I read this not too long ago.
Pic related: Michelangelo. I think it's one of the most bizarre Virgin and Childs out there.
Michelangelo did a lot of weird religious art. Pic related.
And lest we forget his rather classical Christ from the Sistine Chapel.
Fuck off with your hot opinion. Mary is discussed in the Gospels and venerated. Pretending otherwise is stupid, especially since even Martin Luther believed in venerating the Blessed Mother.
Reminder that Mary loves us so much she frequently steps down out of Heaven and intercedes directly in the world.
venetration != labeling him mother of god
which is oxymoronic, god has no mother and no father. If marry is the mother of god then who begotten marry?
Christanity is literally went into serious retardation in order to appeal to hellenistic pagans who were accustomed to gods having fathers and mothers
what you label as catholic christianity, is not christianity but an amalgamation of christian teaching with pagan tradition, you belong to a sect that is half pagan and half christian
>I don't want to derail the thread, but man is it fun mocking protestants.
>little itty bit Catholic cocks
>booing, Christian dubstep playing
>BIG, ENORMOUS NON-DENOMINATION COCK!
>cheering, insane rush for the biggie fries and thus mutilator drink found in the Happy Communions™ being passed around
The Holy Spirit guided the Church is baptizing elements of other cultures, but this does not change the fact that Jesus had a mother named Mary who was venerated in the Gospels. You lose, unless you can contradict that point. Fuck along now.
I used to take the bus two hours to get to my nearest Orthodox Church. When I had no money, I'd walk there all night and into the morning. Of course it didn't occur to me then to simply ask around and get a ride from someone who was going my way to take me, but I was new then.
you will burn in hell to even suggest that god has a mother, god is eternal he doesn't have a geneology.
the marry venetration, theothokos etc were later added to the doctrine in order to appeal to more pagans, particularly women, your retarded catholic brain do not know the history behind the concept or how theotokos did originated, so you spout bullshit.
whoreson pagan appeasing piece of shit, you will burn in hell
Are you retarded? Serious question. I've recently met first prottis irl and I like them a lot. Why aren't you like them? I had a civilized theological discussion recently and held my ground on some things. So on topic good mariology books?
How am I hypocrite? I have nothing against Catholics I just prefer Orthodox, chill the fuck out bro
My problem is buses are shit on Sundays and I also work but i'll get round it at some point, I quite like my protestant church atm anyway, I have family there and they're nice so it'll do for the time being
>you can't give birth to a god,
So do you deny she fave birth to Jesus? Do you deny it? Think and answer.
Then answer if you think Jesus is Your Lord and Savior. Do you affirm that Jesus is God?
If you affirm both of these, then you admit that Mary gave birth to God.
jesus is god but god has no mother or no father or no relatives
god came to earth through marry, but marry is no god birther god has no mother, god is a SINGLE BEING without a FAMILY
theothokos is a forgery created in order to appeal to more pagans, its another scam just as portraying jesus with long hair due to the fact that long hair was considered noble even though entire galilee and judea had short hair.
>My problem is buses are shit on Sundays and I also work but i'll get round it at some point
You should talk to your boss about taking Sunday off for religious reasons. He will be accommodating, I assure you. Orthodox are not supposed to work Sunday anyway.
> I quite like my protestant church atm anyway, I have family there and they're nice so it'll do for the time being
Well with this attitude, you probably shouldn't be coming to Orthodoxy anyway. Our perspective is that the Orthodox Church is the actual Church Christ founded, the One and Only. The idea that anything else can do, even for a time, in the place of that is completely incompatible with the fundamental outlook required from the Orthodox.
What do you call someone who gave birth to you and breastfed you and raised you? You call her your mother.
You're literally preaching Nestorianism. Are you a Nestorian? Please answer this, don't say how you feel about Nestorians, answer if you are one.
I understand what you're saying, work would be difficult because I can only work weekends and with regards to the protestant church, I grew up there and still go with my grandmother every week. I don't agree with many things there but they're pretty open and at this time I'm not fully ready to commit to Orthodoxy, need to learn more about it however I shall go through with it at some point, I'm just taking my time to make sure it's the right decision
>Can't cross town for God
>Can't CROSS town
I would really like to believe, and a lot of the messages seem to make sense (importance of 2017, for example). I also like to look at these probabilistically. Obviously, i accept that miracles can happen. So, in this scenario, if it's not true, we have 6 people who have upheld an elaborate lie for ~ 25 years, gaining almost nothing out of it (them directly). This seems extremely unlikely. One would think one of them would have slipped or came out by now. But, it hasn't happened.
HOWEVER, there are obviously issues.
They claimed Mary said "all religions are true"
>The ecstasy fake out
Apparently, one was pulled out of an ecstasy when someone made a fake movement at her. She had a pretty weak excuse.
So, yea, idk what to believe.
Protestants are far worse.
>Formed the seeds for Atheism to grow and Christianity's destruction
>Formed the seeds for modern SJW-ism
>Formed the basis of the tension between science and faith
>Tries to restore Christianity to that of the Church Fathers only to fail like shit at doing so
>Can't even agree on matters of faith
>Hypocrite by not abiding by their rule of sola scriptura when it comes to matters of faith
Absolutely disgusting. Purge it to the ground
no I'm not why would I deny if I was?
but theothokos is an invention, Nestorians are very correct on that
christianity became paganized so hard whoever does not accept the pagan filth scummed into it is labeled as heretic by the assuation that it was always scummed and mixed with paganism therefore if you ever try to remove the pagan elements you are wrong
a lot of "christain" doctrine you think canon were inventinos during 3rd and 4th and 5th centuries. in order to win more converts. Calling marry god birther was another lie to convert pagans
but now cathoshits hold noble lies that were used to gain more converts as doctrine and they need to because calling them out on their bullshit will damage their authority the same way they clinged to aristotle when it came to scientific matters and labeled anyone who was against arissotle as heretic
because church backed aristotle and if church backed him then he must be right %100 because church is right %100 hence any attack was seen as an attack on the authority on church.
the church is filled with pagan filthy, all you need to do is to study history and learn the historyt behind the concepts that you hold so sacrosanct.
by doing that you would see what were 3-5th century pagan friendly inventions.
but rather you defend 3-5th century paganistic inventions by using 7-11th century apologies, from a time pagans were long gone, but you still need to cling to false doctrines lest the authority of church is damaged.
If the roman emperor said accept 2+2=5 and I will support christians, and christians said yes it is 5, what you are doing is to still defend 2+2=5 about a thousand year after the death of said emperor.
but the defenders of these bullshit doctrines are those who born into cathoshitism in the first place, anyone who throughly examines the history of christainty will come into conclusion that how much bullshit was integrated into the later church and how many of them are considered dogma now.
Look man, once I can change my contract hours I'll be able to go but until such time it isn't possible so atm I just pray at home
I know I know and I do want to go to services but work is my main problem, I need this job and until such time as I can change my shifts it won't be easy at all
When did they say Mary said that? My mom has been following every message since they stared coming out and I'm quite sure she would have mentioned it. Anyway it's legal to go there to pray and take sacraments so check it out. It's not expensive if you are European.
Catholics see the Orthodox Church almost in the sense of the Anglican "branch theory", as Anglo-Catholics see Roman Catholic. The Catholic Church acknowledges a communion with all Orthodox, it's just impaired.
The Orthodox Church, on the other hand, does not see the Catholic Church as a lung of the Church or a branch or anything like that. The Orthodox Church sees herself as the One Church founded by Christ, and Catholics as not that Church, even though they aren't really heretical. The only thing stopping the Orthodox Church from acknowledging the Bishop of Rome as first among equals is that he's, well, Roman Catholic--if he converted to Orthodoxy, he'd instantly be recognized as first among equals and the Orthodox Bishop of Rome.
Anyone who looked through the Ante Nicene period can easily see how we find no Protestants.
No one in the Ante Nicene church believed in the shit of Protestantism like sola scriptura and sola fide.
If you're not Nestorian, then you acknowledge hypostatic union, which means Mary gave birth to God. The only way you can get around that is be saying, no, she only gave birth to Christ's humanity, not to His Divinity--but that would be Nestorianism, as it denies hypostatic union.
It seems the message has been a little misconstrued.
>There was a question asked of Our Lady in October 1981 which was: Are all religions the same? Our Lady answered: "Members of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them."
From the site
>The difficulty that some Catholics have had with this answer is based on the belief that the only salvation is within the Catholic Church itself. But the Catholic Church does not teach this. In fact, Vatican II in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church "Lumen Genitum" says this: "Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God, and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."
>It is a great privilage to be Catholic and I love my faith. Who am I to judge who will be saved. As Matthew 7 says "Judge not, that you may not be judged".
How do Orthodoxy people view protestants, at least the American ones? I live in the southern US and the protestants here are putrid scum. And batshit insane as well. The Baptists in my town convinced a person with schizophrenia that the pope was the Antichrist and we were Satan worshippers. He called in a bomb threat to a Catholic school that was associated with the nearby church and went to the school with a knife.
>tfw the 1st Antiphon starts
Just as a follow up. I would agree with their interpretation. Also, how do you feel about the year 2017? I think it could be extremely important. I'm not conspiratorial, but most would agree the world can't continue as is. And, it's also 500 years from Luther and 100 years from Fatima.
Considering there is a world war brewing and west falling apart it's possible. But I personally couldn't say. I just go there to pray. My dad has a theology degree and as far as I know is essentially a saint so I just take up his word on certain things such as that.
It's not strange at all. The Anglican Church wanted to do something similar with the Catholic Church before, under what's-his-face's leadership as Archbishop, but the Catholic Church said no. Anglicans can take communion with the Catholic Church, of course, but not vice versa.
Anglicans actually were close to full communion with the Orthodox Church before they went full heresy. The Orthodox Church used to acknowledge them as having Apostolic Succession, and the Anglican Church even removed the filioque for a time.
The main reason the hand isn't returned is because it would be seen as acknowledging the Catholic Church as Christ's Church, which the Orthodox Church simply doesn't anymore than Catholics feel that way about the Church of England. Orthodox believe Catholics are saved and consider them Christians and don't think it possible to hold an ecumenical without the Bishop of Rome, but they still cannot see things in the terms of One Church with two branches, the Catholic Church's doctrine about the Pope's power is in direct violation of the Second Canon of the Second Ecumenical Council, which was ratified by the Pope. The Pope is still the leader, but his power is checked by that canon. All that said, healing the rift between the two Churches is still the number one priority of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Lord have mercy on them. We shouldn't judge them though. They are our brothers in Christ and we should have compassion for them, we live in confusing times where there's thousands of different churches to pick from and Christianity isn't popular in the mainstream, very hard for people to find the truth, especially when it would mean going against their family and friends. It's hard out there.
People like John Hagee are a different story though. I don't think he's misguided or that his heart is in the right place, I think he's one of Satan's helpers.
where does the idea that Mary was completely sinless come from, and why did the Church invent so much mythology around it (like the immaculate conception) when they really had no evidence for it? Was it just Roman mystical traditions leaking through?
Orthodox here: the Roman Catholic conception of original sin is that it's transmitted through conception, which is why she needs immaculate conception to make for a clean vessel for Christ. The Orthodox Church doesn't subscribe to the immaculate conception because she doesn't believe original sin is something transmitted through sexual conception, but a state people are in due to Adam's fall.
The Orthodox Church doesn't think Mary sinned, because her function is the new Eve is the new covenant. If she sinned, she'd just be old Eve. However, she was in a fallen state due to Adam (but not something transmitted at her conception, since conception does not transmit the fallen state), and so needed Salvation through Christ. Mary not sinning is considered the reason God chose her as His Handmaiden. HOWEVER, the idea that Mary didn't sin is not doctrine, that is, it's not infallible dogma in the Orthodox Church, it is just by far the most widely accepted position--to deny is not considered heresy.
thanks for the answer! Interesting stuff about the new Eve, I suppose it does make for a better story with stronger parallels to the OT. Also glad to hear that it's not doctrine, I know you guys take that stuff very seriously.
As an aside, do you know why catholics believe original sin is transmitted through conception? God commanding Adam and Eve to "be fruitful and multiply" seems about as pre-original sin as it gets.
>As an aside, do you know why catholics believe original sin is transmitted through conception?
They were very influenced by Saint Augustine, whose idea it was. The Orthodox recognize and venerates Augustine as a sin, but we think his theology is extremely fishy.
To give an example, here: the Orthodox believe Christ was born in a cave (though lain in a manger). The precedent for this is the Gospel of James, which is considered a regular human account, but not divinely inspired. The reason is has precedent here (it could have other details dead wrong) is that Christ being born in a cave was standard knowledge at the time in the Church, and they accorded on this point. There were a lot of things that simply weren't recorded in a divinely inspired way, and the twelve couldn't write, so they didn't record them. But they gave accounts to all Christians, and these accounts were accepted from the get go. How do we know to this day that it was popular acknowledged? Because it is mentioned by several (non-heretical) Christian writers in passing, even though it's not in the Gospels.
It's not that we think she isn't the mother of God. It's the Mariology. To treat her as an equal to Christ. She was a special and holy woman. But nothing more. With that said, I am willing to live and let live. We are never gonna unite anyway. Let's just believe as we wish and let God be the judge.
>The circumstances of the Dormition of the Mother of God were known in the Orthodox Church from apostolic times. Already in the first century, the Hieromartyr Dionysius the Areopagite wrote about Her “Falling-Asleep.” In the second century, the account of the bodily ascent of the Most Holy Virgin Mary to Heaven is found in the works of Meliton, Bishop of Sardis. In the fourth century, St Epiphanius of Cyprus refers to the tradition about the “Falling Asleep” of the Mother of God. In the fifth century, St Juvenal, Patriarch of Jerusalem, told the holy Byzantine Empress Pulcheria: “Although there is no account of the circumstances of Her death in Holy Scripture, we know about them from the most ancient and credible Tradition.”
>According to Tradition, based on the words of the Hieromartyrs Dionysius the Areopagite (October 3), Ignatius the God-Bearer (December 20), St Ambrose of Milan (December 7) had occasion to write in his work “On Virgins” concerning the Mother of God: “She was a Virgin not only in body, but also in soul, humble of heart, circumspect in word, wise in mind, not overly given to speaking, a lover of reading and of work, and prudent in speech. Her rule of life was to offend no one, to intend good for everyone, to respect the aged, not envy others, avoid bragging, be healthy of mind, and to love virtue.”
>To treat her as an equal to Christ
We don't treat her as an equal to Christ. She is not part of the Holy Trinity. She is not part of the Godhead. She is not God. We don't worship her, we venerate her. She is the first among saints. One of the last things Jesus said on the cross was to to Mary standing next to one of his disciples "Woman, behold your son!" and to the disciple he said "Behold your mother!" Think of it like trying to ask your mother to convince your father to let you off the hook for something he's really mad about. You understand your father has the final say, but your mother might intercede on your behalf.
"Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:42,43
"For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed." Luke 1:48