ITT: Authoritarians that actually did right by their country
Portugal's Antonio Salazar is one that comes to mind. A reluctant leader, stabilized his country, led it to economic recovery, kept it out of WW2 and even helped funnel refugees to the Americas. In short did literally nothing wrong.
Franco had no reason to even become a dictator in the first place, the Republican government he overthrew was only mildly left wing and the communist/anarchist elements only emerged in self defence after Franco had already attempted his coup
>.if the US had lost the cold war, all of those countries that you mentioned as being "good" they would be shitholes
This is backwards logic. The USSR lost the cold war because it was a poverty-ridden shithole. It didn't become a poverty-ridden shithole because it lost the cold war.
But... holodomor there is a reason we're not listing hitler and mussolini
That was the Russian empire before Stalin.
The USSR lost the cold war because the keks that came after Stalin and their de-stalinization fucked up what was one of the great powers of the 20th century.
Ukranians where pretty much traitors. Almost all of them fought in the side of the nationalists, anarchists or royalists.
And holodomor was not as big as western propaganda try to make it. There's a reson why there are still Ukranians.
>That was the Russian empire before Stalin.
Of course not. Russians in the early 1900s were far wealthier and far better fed than under Stalin.
>The USSR lost the cold war because the keks that came after Stalin and their de-stalinization fucked up what was one of the great powers of the 20th century.
You're a fucking moron, so I know what I will say won't change your opinion, but the Gulag slave labor system, which was the reason why Russia industralized, had become unsustainable in the early 50s.
>but the US was all good during the cold war, right?
Right. It was by far the wealthiest place on earth.
>And holodomor was not as big as western propaganda try to make it. There's a reson why there are still Ukranians.
That's a fucking idiotic reasoning
There's still Tutsis and Jews and Armenians and Irish too
>Of course not. Russians in the early 1900s were far wealthier and far better fed than under Stalin.
Untrue. There's a reason why there was a revolution. The people didn't overtrown the tzar just because they were bored.
>Gulag slave labor system, which was the reason why Russia industralized, had become unsustainable in the early 50s.
By the 50s the USSR already had an industrial complex that rivaled the west trough decades.
Very true. Try reading a book once in a while.
>There's a reason why there was a revolution.
Right, I'm not saying life under the Tsar was perfect, the autocratic system clearly had to go, but the standards of living of the average russian peasant and of the average industrial worker were much higher under the Tsar in the early 19th century than under Stalin up until the 1950s.
>By the 50s the USSR already had an industrial complex that rivaled the west trough decades.
Augusto Pinochet prevented Chile from becoming a violent, poor and corrupt socialist shithole, like Venezuela has become under Hugo Chavez. I don't even care much about his economically liberal policies and whether or not they are responsible from the "Miracle of Chile".
>but the standards of living of the average russian peasant and of the average industrial worker were much higher under the Tsar in the early 19th century than under Stalin up until the 1950s.
Not true. The average peasant in the 19th century was literally living form famine to famine due to weather and war. The average worker of the USSR may have been not as well as he would have liked but at least they had food every day in their tables. Also Stalin's industrialization of the country allowed for more electrical lines, more trains, modern apliances, etc.
>Not true. The average peasant in the 19th century was literally living form famine to famine due to weather and war
Shit meant 20th century.
>The average worker of the USSR may have been not as well as he would have liked but at least they had food every day in their tables
Nope. Rations were incredibly low. Workers were starved, and those who complained got a one way ticket to the gulag. Worst of all, they had to work 8 hours a day 7 days of the week. Some paradise you tell me!
>Also Stalin's industrialization of the country allowed for more electrical lines, more trains, modern apliances, etc.
Must've been great if you were still alive.
>By the time Stalin died they were far better than they were in the 1929 and before.
You specifically talking about that time period now you've moved the goalposts and you're talking about how it was after Stalin, like 30 years later
Yeah and the U.S. was going through its greatest economic boom in its fucking history
>Nope. Rations were incredibly low. Workers were starved, and those who complained got a one way ticket to the gulag. Worst of all, they had to work 8 hours a day 7 days of the week. Some paradise you tell me!
That's just propaganda. Those who worked against the revolution deservedly were sent to the gullag, thats all.
>Must've been great if you were still alive.
Like a fuck load of people that were still alive then.
>That's just propaganda.
It was official law : https://www.marxists.org/history/etol/writers/vance/1941/01/russia2.htm
You're quite clearly a stalinkek. You should probably kill yourself.
>after Stalin, like 30 years later
Stalin ruled up to around the year 1953. By 1929 he just had taken power and the war had just ended. You can't blame him for what happened before he took power.
>By 1929 he just had taken power and the war had just ended.
The war ended in 1922.
Instead of banning controversial posts, I think mods should ban historically illiterate retards like yourself. Too bad the mods are niggerloving keks.
probably one of the greatest men of the 20th century. If only he had relinquished his power after a decade or so, people would be comparing him to George Washington.
>supported some of the most brutal dictators in Africa
Imagine if the US sent troops in support of a dictator who killed 500,000 people and was responsible for a famine that killed another 400,000?
Leftists wouldn't shut up about how this was the greatest crime the US has ever committed. And yet that exactly what Fidel Castro did when he sent troops to Ethiopia to support the regime of Mengistu Haile Mariam.
>That's little time in an historical context
That's 7 years. By 1952, the ash heap which Japan was 1945 was back to being a first world economy.
>You don't get a destroyed country and make it a super power in 5-2 years.
That's true. But like I've already said, Stalin actually made things worse.
>Transcribed & marked up by Einde O’Callaghan for the Encyclopaedia of Trotskyism On-Line (ETOL).
He obviously had to make new rules for the context of a world war, but the slavery part is only propaganda.
>Stalin actually made things worse.
Except he didn't. When Stalind died the USSR was a world power, with lots of art, science, technology and weaponry that rivaled the USA trough decades. You can't do that if the country is so fucked up as your propaganda sourced posts sugest.
This actually makes me laugh.
I'm sure that if a communist was in a sinking boat and you told him "the boat is sinking" he would say "do you have proof? The boat is not sinking. The boat is a good soviet boat"
>you will never defend the patria with you qt 3.14 saint teir wife
Cry for me Argentina.
>Except he didn't.
People were absolutely miserable under Stalin. They lived like animals. The industrialization of Russia was only made possible through the massive slavery of the russian population.
> When Stalind died the USSR was a world power
It was a shithole with nukes.
>with lots of art, science, technology and weaponry that rivaled the USA trough decades
Hahaha, what? The only area where it rivaled the USA was its space program, because it poured money into it for propaganda reasons. They were lucky Korolev didn't croak when he was shoveling shit at temperatures of -60°C in the frozen desert of the Kolyma gulag.
I bet you're so fucking stupid you've never heard of Korolev.
>You can't do that if the country is so fucked up as your propaganda sourced posts sugest.
You can, it's called "not giving a shit about human life".
Sure is a good century to be Russian
Look who didnt read Krutschevs speech or Gulag Archipelago or any relevant literature of the time, really.
He was benevolent to his own people, just not to others.
And before the mods ban shit: if the commie can say the holodomor is all good and they deserve it for being traitors, we should be allowed to like Hitler damn it.
This board needs IDs.
alright, i'm not saying that the holodomer happened, but it wasn't stalin's fault
so basically, ukraine, being the breadbasket of eastern europe, had a shit ton of rich landowner farmers and legions of starving ukranians. stalin was all like "hey rich farmers, stop exporting all that shit to the rest of europe and give it to the people around you, but the farmers literally started burning their crops and moving to western europe
>It was a shithole with nukes.
And somehow where the first to reach space because the were a shit hole.
>Hahaha, what? The only area where it rivaled the USA was its space program
And pretty much every kind of art, technology and science, from math to psychology, some soviet scientist are still named in papers today. Don't be so obtuse.
Also who cares if they did it for propaganda (they obviously did it for strategic reasons). They did it, thats it, deal with it.
>not giving a shit about human life
Explain how you go from killing everyone indiscriminatelly, like the propaganda sugests, to a super power. Pro tip: you can't
>stalin was all like "hey rich farmers, stop exporting all that shit to the rest of europe and give it to the people around you, but the farmers literally started burning their crops and moving to western europe
This couldn't be further from the truth. Stalin was the one who insisted on continuing to export millions of tons of wheat at the height of the famine.
>And somehow where the first to reach space because the were a shit hole.
Oh please, stop with the space age propaganda. We get it, Korolev is a genius. Good thing he didn't die in the gulag.
>And pretty much every kind of art, technology and science, from math to psychology, some soviet scientist are still named in papers today.
No, not at all. For instance, medical research in the USSR was abysmal. The only area where the USSR was good was areas which didn't require any resources, such as theoretical maths. But even then, you weren't shielded from Stalin's madness : plenty of scientists and mathematicians were rounded up and executed during the great purges.
>Explain how you go from killing everyone indiscriminatelly, like the propaganda sugests, to a super power.
They weren't a superpower. The average soviet lived a miserable life. The industrialization of the USSR was rendered possible thanks to the reintroduction of serfdom under the form of the kholkoze and of the gulag.
You're so fucking deluded, go fucking die.
The massive amount of deaths didn't occur until the 80s, after Cuba had already gotten involved and by which point they couldn't really pull out (they couldn't afford to strain their relationship with Russia)
At least they did alright by the Angolan civil war.
>some soviet scientist are still named in papers today.
So are many scientists from 19th century Austro-Hungary. What does that prove? Nothing.
>super powers dont commit massacres
Are you high? All of them did. From Japan to the USA, to Nazi Germany to Great Brittain. Every one of them gassed and murdered people by the hundreds of thousands.
>Korolev is a genius. Good thing he didn't die in the gulag.
>Korolev was assigned to a "sharashka", a penitentiary for intellectuals and the educated. These were effectively slave-labor camps where scientists and engineers worked on projects assigned by the Communist party leadership.
He had to make some forced scientific work. So harsh...!
>go fucking die.
Take it easy.
Key word here.
There's a reason why it's not first.
Pro tip: It's not because russians think it's the ideal way to run the country.
Of course, I expect you to mention some grand conspiracy keeping "duh comrade down".
>So are many scientists from 19th century Austro-Hungary. What does that prove?
That Austro-Hungary has a good historical record on science.
>super powers dont commit massacres
Never said anything like this.
Not American. It's a fucking excel graph with no indication of its meaning.
>On 22 June 1938, during the Great Purge, Korolev was arrested by the NKVD after being denounced by Ivan Kleymenov, Georgy Langemak, and Valentin Glushko. He was accused of deliberately slowing the work of the research institute, and following torture in the Lubyanka prison to extract a confession, was tried and sentenced to ten years in a Gulag work camp.
>In the work camp, conditions were extremely rough – inadequate food, shelter, clothing, work assignments, and thousands of prisoners dying each month. Towards the end of 1939 he was sent back to Moscow, but he had already sustained injuries and had lost most of his teeth due to the labor camp's brutal conditions.
>Other members of the RNII had also been arrested. Kleymenov and Langemak were executed, leaving Korolev very fortunate to have even survived. The rocket program was set back for years and fell far behind the rapid progress taking place in Germany.
Sounds like such a lovely place.
No, he's right. 1000% of the 1929 GDP per capita? How does that even fucking work.That graph is a shitty unlabeled mess.
For instance, where the fuck are the source and the tittle?
thank u based socialism. soviet leaders werent really dictators tho
>There's a reason why it's not first.
>It's not because russians think it's the ideal way to run the country.
In fact there are many that think it is and remember it with fondness that's why the communist party is a big party and not a small party.
Do monarchs that were essentially dictators count?
>Say what you will about Putin, he's right about the USSR.
That's not what we are discussing here (Stalin and his works is the subject matter) but right in that quote is implied that Russians do miss the Soviet Union.
its to illustrate growth retard
“[The Soviet government] did try to alleviate the famine. A 25 February 1933 Central Committee decree allotted seed loans of 320,000 tons to Ukraine and 240,000 tons to the northern Caucasus, Seed loans were also made to the Lower Volga and may have been made to other regions as well. Kul’chyts’kyy cites Ukrainian party archives showing that total aid to Ukraine by April 1933 actually exceeded 560,000 tons, including more than 80,000 tons of food. Aid to Ukraine alone was 60 percent greater than the amount exported during the same period. Total aid to famine regions was more than double exports for the first half of 1933. It appeas to have been another consequence of the low 1932 harvest that more aid was not provided: After the low 1931, and 1934, and 1936 harvests procured grain was transferred back to peasants at the expense of exports.” Mark B. Tauger. “The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933.” Slavic Review 50, no. 1 (1991): 70-89. http://www.as.wvu.edu/history/Faculty/Tauger/Tauger, ‘The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933, SR 91.pdf.
>its to illustrate growth retard
Thats nice, but we were asking about total GDP. China also still has a 7% growth today versus the USAs 2%. Doesnt mean China has a higher GDP by any means.
I'm not raised on anti-communist propaganda, either. I just see the fact that the USSR was miserable, China was miserable and has now morphed into a Fascist regime, Cuba was and is miserable, Angola was and is miserable, and Communist rebels have made most of South America miserable on and off for decades.
Fucking Theocracy has a better track record than Communism.
>I also think the U.S. has been better as a hegemonic power than pretty much every other superpower in history.
Well of course you'd say that because there have only been two superpowers in world history and the other one collapsed in 1991
>I'm not raised on anti-communist propaganda, either. I just see the fact that the USSR was miserable, China was miserable and has now morphed into a Fascist regime, Cuba was and is miserable, Angola was and is miserable, and Communist rebels have made most of South America miserable on and off for decades.
I assume you mean in the modern era in particular? Since 'authoritarianism' (iow, autocracy) was the default mode of social organization for millennia (and you could argue it still is, only disguised through back door methods).
The number of highly succesful countries when looking at the whole of history were on the majority explicitly autocratic.
nah, they lived in a rural village.
Its just that OP gets it right when he says Salazar stabilized the country and kept it out WW2, but is dead wrong about everything else.
>inb4 muh economy
He stabilized national debt
Thats it. He didnt develop the country whatsoever. His hissy fit about the colonies kept portugal isolated from the international stage and from outside trade and investment for decades.
People lived generally just as miserable before 1974 as they did just before Salazar rose to power. The social stratification was fierce and raising your lot in life was virtually impossible.
A kind, loving, man who only wanted the best for Paraguay.
It's just obvious that the fact a development divide still exists decades after the end of it, people flooded out of it, and there were numerous documented atrocities committed within its borders, that the USSR was a shithole.
NATO countries aren't perfect, but the better side won the Cold War and people need to get over it.
Pinochet is practically the sole Chile is not a leftist shithole(but i repeat myself) like the rest of south-america, though recent trends indicate they are taking the slide to join the rest of their Latin brethren in the populist pig sty.
To its domestic population, no. Cops shoot at one university protest in America and people are out protesting in droves, cops shoot at twelve university protests in the USSR and people remember it must be Tuesday. They were also able to protest and disagree with the foreign policy decisions their government was making to support foreign dictators, also something that would get you shot or disappeared for in the USSR.
The shit people are afraid America is sinking into today isn't as bad as what the USSR was actually doing for decades.
You're saying any argument against the USSR or Communism is propaganda and it was actually a great place with reason to be nostalgic for it. You're wrong. You're also denying it. That suggests you're in denial about the whole Cold War dynamic.
>was actually a great
Never argued anythin like that. I just said that Stalin got a shithole and transformed it into a world power.
>with reason to be nostalgic for it
Well. People who lived under it are. They might have some reason.
Pick a citation. Any citation on that page shows there was mass repression and various atrocities committed regularly in the USSR that have no recorded analog in the US. McCarthyism was nothing compared to the KGB.
>u mad xD
Again. No context whatsoever, someone disagreeing with you is an indicative that they're angry. I wouldn't imagine I'm wrong for assuming you're a redditor just visiting - just being open minded. Welcome to 4chan, my friend!
>and Stalin fags
Not at all comparable with Hitler tho. One destroyed his country and is hated by everyone exept edgy teenagers and the other made a world power that lasted decades and is still loved by a good number of his people.
Nah m8. the Cult of the Supreme being was an endorsement of Deism. The Cult of Reason was literally r/atheism they actively attacked churches and held ceremonies worshiping the 'Goddess of Reason'. Hebertists were literal Fedoras senpai
McCarthyism was nothing compared to the KGB because it was *about* the KGB.
Of course, he was correct, but he greatly underestimated just how deep the rabbit hole went. It wasn't just some specter of foreign influence, but his own fellow Americans consciously and independently aiding and abbeting the cause of, if not capital C Communism, they may as well have been through action (or inaction as the case may be), in the name of what they might call 'human decency', 'democracy', 'just plain goodness', and other highly ideological terms.
Not very complimentary.
Also, did you ever consider that the reason most sources are more negative about the USSR than the USA is because the USSR was a shithole?
History is kind to a lot of losers. Chinese, Iranian, Indian, and African states that were wiped out by force or just collapsed and therefore have no living members have plenty of people defending their systems of government. Even most Russians are reticent to defend the Soviet system.
Opinion polls on Soviet nostalgia show people miss the state known as the USSR but prefer policies that are the opposite of what they got under it.
>69% Miss USSR
>63% Prefer freedom of speech
It's doublethink, but any overlap on those two stats would turn south on the USSR rightly quick if it actually came back. Also, youth mostly doesn't like or doesn't care for the USSR at all (44 + 29%)
Portugal is easily the worst country in Western Europe. It's somehow even worse than Spain. Salazar was terrible, if he had entered WW2 (on the right side) at least he would have benefited from Marshall aid.
This is why Portugal is awful, fucking retards tried to fight a colonial war when a) they had no money b) Marxism was sweeping the world and c) colonialism was just plain uncool
Get fucked Amerilard, how can you talk about Cuba supporting brutal African dictators when you supported the king of them all? Cuba fought for freedom in Africa.
that is the reason why i love the cold war, both of them were the same disgusting assholes..but since the US won the cold war, we only know about Soviet's shit.
As a Brazilian this makes me laugh
How does gettin keked for existence by the only monarchy in the tropics feel?
Also didnt this guy make women and children fight?
Should've just tried an economic agreement, taking Brazilian clay and killing one of our greatest general's friend in the process was a bit stupid i fear
>what you did
First of all, I'm Canadian. Second of all, the various periods of pre-Civil Rights blackness in America were, at worst, equivalent to what the USSR was doing to political dissidents.
Post-WWI American black people's treatment wasn't even in the same galaxy as the Nazis or the USSR.
Hitler shook Jesse Owens' hand
Modern damage controllers try to pretend it was the other way around when Owens himself said that Hitler was nice to him but Roosevelt was an asshole.
>it's a butthurt socialist post
sorry didn't mean to post that garbage, not even sure why I had it saved.
You want to add Somoza and Trujillo to that list?
This guy. Many old people still refer to him as 'my general' in Colombia. Such a shame he's not going to be on the new bills because of political correctness.
Well, it's not like he has much if not any competition for being the best ruler Peru had to be honest.
Just being a competent ruler would make you a top tier ruler by Peruvian standards (though that might be true anywhere).
>literally tried talking russia into starting a fucking nuclear holocaust if the us tried stopping the import of nukes to the island
> evenfucking russia thought he was being fucking insane, packed up their nukes and left
benevolent as fuck
>capitalism killed a fraction of people
A nation that was shit-tier in before 1930 was then industrialized
>won a world war
>controlled half of europe
>built an a-bomb
>started a space program and made Murifats think of the possibility of ICBM
inb4 my gorilions
>dictatorship of the proletariat for progress into communism torvarisch
>democracy never killed innocents
>Capitalism is objectively better than communism, hence the outcome of the cold war.
implying the military industrial complex and technology R&D is not funded by the STATE
STATE CAPITALISM 4 THE W1N
>under Stalin. They lived like animals.
wow back to reddit
How's high school?
>because it poured money into it for propaganda reasons.
again back to reddit
Wanted to build an ICBM. Tell the USkeks that they can shoot into their backyard.
Got the USkeks to think twice about their space capabilities (WHICH WAS NOTHING)
That's a pretty big check and balance
It's showing you relative to a time point
>Total GDP was far greater in USA
>USSR managed to maintain GDP better than US
It's showing you how well a system works
USA is not capitalist in the classical sense there's a lot of centralized planning in agriculture, science, technology, and military capabilities
USA would be a pretty good gommie country with all it's wealth
MARX WUZ RIGHT
It was poor because it was like always trying to catch up to the USA. The Soviet Union pretty much industrialized in the 20th Century in a few decades. Something that the rest of the world powers had done hundreds of years before and in the span of centuries. I always find it disingenuous to compare the 2.
>USA in 1900 vs Russia in 1900 for average peasant
fast forward 50 years
>USA in 1950 vs USSR in 1950 for average citizen
The USSR advanced FAR FAR FAR more than the USA. Did it catch up completely? fuck no.
No love for based Ataturk?
What's wrong with Cuba? Also China isn't Fascist by any meaning of the word. USSR was alright and mostly everyone in the former soviet union would have been better off if it hadn't collapsed.