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Ask a drawing teacher anything.
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You are currently reading a thread in /ic/ - Artwork/Critique

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Ask a drawing teacher anything.
Can you post your artwork?
Will you teach me 4 free senpai?
are you teacher in a school? if so you, what are the pros and cons of your job?
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All I have with me now is this one.


No, even though I'm seeking for a job in a formal school at the moment. I teach on my own, private classes, some with two or three students tops. I also gave a few workshop courses with limited classes.

The greatest pro is that I love what I do and people are apparently satisfied with it. It pays well, but in the way that I handle it, it is quite irregular, so that's a con. I have a lot of students from specific areas with specific interests (two architects, a fashion designer and so on) and so the classes are suited for what they want to do with drawing. I think there is a huge difference between a student that seeks his teacher and a student that either doesn't want to be there in your class(formal school) or pays for a package that he doesn't know what it is about.
>thinking about the individual needs of your students

Based teacher, would attend your class.
Anyone else is grossed out by the level of most art teachers?, like, most...
I've been drawing for a year and a half and I beat every highschool art teacher and many college ones, some by far.
Not trying to offend anyone but, I don't want to learn from someone who doesn't know how to learn/doesn't work hard.
Best way to get into becoming a drawing teacher?
I already have a degree from a relatively well received art school.
lol post your stuff
I'd say to get in touch with education and with people that are into it. I've learned a about drawing from learning about teaching. I started out as a guide in a museum, talking to children, teenagers and adults about art and other things. This was very important to gain experience in how to handle the classes, what's my role as a teacher and so on. It's also the only way to get involved in the teaching scenario in your city, to get into workshops, schools, etc. You know, some of the opportunities were always open to me, I just didn't know about them, this before people started mentioning them and linking them to me.

This is about how to become a teacher in activity. But there is a whole world of ideas on how to be a good teacher, and what does it mean to teach...

I understand your impression, but there is more to it than that. Good artists can be horrible teachers. It's not about a one-who-knows-more dropping knowledge on one-who-knows-less, because one always knows a thing or two, a way of seeing, an exercise, that you may not know. And this can even help you get even further "ahead" of your teacher, that shouldn't be a problem to the teacher. And the quotemarks are warranted because after some time you realize there are inumerous ways to draw fantastically well. Comparisson and competition are some of the worst problems concerning art and keeps people away from developping their own natural ability to observe, reproduce and imagine.

Besides, my students are often early begginers and I don't think there is any need to be the best in the world to help them. With attention given to this beggining, I can help them set off with good practices that will last as long as they keep progressing, even without me later. I declined some students before as well, a woman interested in watercolour, a guy who wanted technical drawings for engineering, things that I don't feel comfortable working with at my level.
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Please do this.
I lived in a relatively small town (500k), and it was almost impossible to find sculpting lessons. When I did, their work didn't convinced me at all, so I didn't took the course.

I don't know if we can improve more with an excellent teacher who is not an extraordinary artist, or working with a good artist who's not necessarily a teacher.
Why did you focus so much on the girls?
Having worked with multiple students and seeing their progressions...do you believe in talent?
it's true for all fields. "those who can, do. those who can't, teach." is a saying for a reason.

Good question. Honestly, the answer is a big fat no. I went from "some people have talent" to "some people are better at some things and others are better in others, we have natural tendencies, etc" to just "no". I see most people at the second point. I personaly think the word talent should be dropped altogether.

Some people pick up the lessons in a more smooth way, but who is to say that's not because my way of explaining it suits them better? And who is to say smooth learning is better anyway? We are so influenced by our surroundings, we have no right to speak of what comes from birth or what's not. When we are kids we are always playing with chalk, drawing, throwing paint all over and then... At some point, 98% of people stop drawing, stop experimenting with mouth sounds, stop doing acrobatics and start saying those things are stupid. Maybe the guy who is apparently more comfortable with drawing reacted to the frustration of comparisson during that period of our life and pressed on, maybe he was stubborn, maybe he was bullied and drawing was the only way he had to express himself, maybe he is dedicated and draw much more than you do, maybe he can't lose and forces himself to draw it "right" more than you do, maybe, maybe.... And maybe none of that as who am I to analyze an pinpoint the origin of a person's skills. That's pretentious, to say the least.

I do know that ideas around talent are responsible for a lot of people quitting drawing. I don't believe in it and I think that people who believe in it may face a problem later on when they realize they have to quit trying to find a suiting "place" to be and start building one for oneself. It doesn't matter where skill comes from, or that if you think the other has more or less skill than you do. What matters is what you do and what you want to do, without comparisson, without levels, but places, intentions and techniques that speak to you.
>>1881008 cont
I believe a lot of people don't know what they want or think they know what they want, without really listening to their needs and impulses. I say that because when I was a teenager I wanted to be a rock star. I didn't want to sit to read musical notation, I didn't want to spend so much time with the guitar, I wanted to be on stage. I had a couple of guitar lessons and dropped out. But you see, I didn't want to do music, I wanted to be well-versed in music. That's the difference. In the same way, there are a lot of people who don't like drawing, who don't like doing the thing itself, but want to be able to draw really well. That is our ego talking and will make learning to draw hard and frustration. We must ask ourselves what exactly do we want to do with our time, not what kind of person we must be according to what people sell to us.
where do you advertise your services? i've been looking for a serious private instructor but can't find one
What is the most common lesson lesson/idea/technique that you must teach over and over to students?
What advice would you give to illustrators who have decided to self-teach themselves art?
I used a website exclusive to my town (it's about all kinds of teachers, so there is just me and 3-4 more on arts). Later, one student recommended to the other and I have a page on facebook with information and contact. I'm not sure how to help you find one. You could search institutions, seek workshops and so on and then contact the teachers directly asking for private classes.

Very good question. Some things I teach all of them, like technical info on materials, gesture drawing, some notions of perspective, etc. Negative space is troublesome to most. But I guess the most insistent problem is that everyone goes right at the detail and I have to keep reminding them to get loose, to figure the whole thing out first, anyway, to sketch things up more fluently. It's not that they have to work this way, but I see them later sad about the proportions because they were narrowing their vision to the details too early on.
MFA or equivalent degree?
For one thing, work from observation of the real world. Don't worry about style or about what other people do with their artwork. Develop your vision and your technique by paying attention to the things around you. Style is not something you choose, it is what is left when you work from reality most honestly. And this is your strenght, everyone's own particular strenght.

Always carry a sketchbook with you and use it as a sketchbook. What I mean by this is not to worry on doing nice looking things to pick up chicks with it. Sketch! Use the sketchbook as a "diary", keep note of your ideas and of images that strike you, and it doesn't matter if it is stupid or ugly. Use the book as a way to think through drawing. Draw people in the streets, draw buildings, draw monsters, draw your dreams. Use this book to experiment in anyway that you like, glue stuff on it if you like, write on it if you like, but don't try to judge it or analyze it or criticize it. Judgement doesn't go along with doing: do first, leave judgement for the future.

Avoid the eraser. Don't throw it out, just avoid it. Learn to use pen. Work with traditional media even if you desire to work just digitally. Digital painting becomes a lot easier once you try mixing colors in cups yourself.

When you find something you don't understand (a crowd, a complicated decoration in a church, a corner of your vision with too much things crammed...), draw it with a pen, detail by detail. It doesn't matter if it ends up skewed, or out of proportion, that practice is good for the eye.

Sit straight. Your core must support your weight.
Almost. I was going through an equivalent degree, almost finishing it, when I had to drop because I was out of money and got a great job offer that took most of my time. I intend to go back next year just to get the diploma.
I'm constantly told to draw with my elbow and shoulder rather than my wrist. This still feels awkward and my drawings end up messy. Any advice or should I just keep drawing with my whole arm until it feel natural?
Any chance you can share some "before and after" of some of your students' works?
The reason people give that advice is because we are told from very early on to use our drawing tools as if we were writing. In this way, we are trained to move our wrist and fingers to work the letters and elbow to keep the line. When highlighting at text with a marker, pay attention on how easier it is to use your elbow instead.

The elbow and shoulder have a broader angle of motion and so, in minor scale, it gives straighter lines. There is a time to pay attention to each of the articulations, but in general, we use them all at all times. Using the elbow and shoulder will also help you in case you draw at bigger sizes, go into painting and so on.

It's good practice to experiment different things all the time, even using your worst hand or holding it in a way that is counter-intuitive, learning to enjoy some loss of control, even.

To practice it out, always have scrap paper with you and do swirls, and circles and straight lines. Use it as scrap. There is little exercise that's like connecting the dots, but with a catch. Draw a lot of dots in a piece of paper. Now connect them in any order you like, but instead of going from dot 1 to 2, go from 2 to 1, then pull your line from 3 to 2, then 4 to 3, from destination to origin. You'll miss a few times.

Also, try stretching before drawing. Hold your hands up, with your arms straight from the shoulder and forearms straight up. Make circles inwards with your wrists, 8 times. Then outwards. Now, with your wrist relaxed, do circles with your elbows. 8 in and 8 out. Do it slowly and with good forms. Picture good things coming in and bad things going out. Then, leave them down completely relaxed. Feel the weight of your hands. Stay conscious of your body.

That would be nice, but I don't have any of my student's drawings with me, they keep them all, so no chance.
>or should I just keep drawing with my whole arm until it feel natural?
This. Doing detail work with your wrist is fine but you want to learn to draw with our whole arm so you can do long, sweeping lies without them looking all jittery.
good posts op

how much do you normally charge? do you accept online classes? (pls based op, even a skype chat would do)
I just want to say that high school art classes were the biggest waste of time because the teacher never bothered to actually teach anything other than symbol drawing.
really liked this part, helped the brain out in a few parts, thanks for writing it.
and thanks for all the great answers OP, and thanks for the good questions anons.
OP here, I'm back.

Thanks. I charge around $40 per class (adapted currency, so that's a rough estimate). The class is 2 hours long.

I gave a class via skype once, but I was not satisfied and the student didn't want to continue. It's really hard to speak of drawing through the computer, though not impossible. Even better if we both have a tablet. I never thought of making a thing out of online classes, but I may give it a try. You may leave an email account for me to contact you later. You may also post a drawing, link to portfolio and speak more of where you want to go with your drawing, and what are your main difficulties. In all of my student's first class I ask them to bring their drawings, even the ones they think that suck and talk about them. Without that, I wouldn't know how I could be of help (or even if I can!).

What exactly do you mean by symbol drawing? You mean he would say "to draw an eye, make an oval with a circle in it" and leave it at that?

Thanks, I'm also happy with the questions.
Does listening to music while drawing make you less productive?
I would say no. It makes you produce in a different way, that's all.

Some people like it, some people hate it. I personally love to sketch around with music, but I prefer complete silence when working on a final piece. I also put on music when my environment is too noisy. Even though I'm putting more "noise" into my ears, sometimes it helps to level it all out than to just listen to violent sounds of cars and hammers...

The thing with music is that it sets a rhythm for you and you must become aware of this effect. I gave exercises before in which the students would draw under different styles of music and everyone points to the effect it had in their drawing. This is a good exercise to do it yourself and see how your personal rhythm is affected by different music. It can be very distracting because music is very powerful. If you are working on something meticulous, don't put on messy music, with lyrics that could distract you. I often recommend listening to minimalist composers, religious chants and things like that to get into some sort of pulsing meditating state. But before any of that, try things out, pay attention to how it can make you agitated, sad, excited and how it affects your drawing. Learn to enjoy silence too, at one point you may feel it as necessary.
Nice thread.
Do you believe art has standards of quality to be met or do you hold onto aesthetic relativism?

This something my teacher and I don't quite see on eye-to-eye and he would sometimes give me weird look when I critique his artwork in faculty galleries.
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>Learn to use pen

I've really taken the pen thing to heart and the sketchbook topics in general. Great thread overall and I hope you continue to answer our questions.
where do you live that 500k is considered small

Exactly what I was thinking.
Aesthetics, in an etymological sense means feeling, sensation (compare with anaesthetic). I believe it can only be relative because of that. How can I argue for the feelings evoked from an artwork without someone to feel it? Without a subject to perceive it, there is no beauty, no reason, no emotion.

There are many levels to this discussion, but I think an important point, often forgotten by most people (including here a lot of supposedly connoisseurs and critics) is that aesthetics and beauty in art doesn't mean yes or no, good or bad, beautiful or ugly, aprooved or not. Not even if you were to take the shades in between that spectrum (this is good, though there is some bad in it). Aesthetics and criticism goes much beyond that.

Practice speaking of a piece without ever coming to terms of good or bad and you'll begin to see beauty in a different way. We are often just comparing what we see now with an idea of what we expect that thing to be. I find this to be a very poor approach as we are not open to something new, that what we may find to be beautiful today might not be tomorrow. We make this into a pressure for things to match our expectations instead of giving it just some credit, enough credit to suppose that there is some beauty in it that you just haven't learned to appreciate just yet.

Hold your judgement. It is not necessary to give out your opinion at all times. Well, when is it anyway? That's a question for life. It feels as if we are to make a call right this instant, to leave a museum speaking of what is good or what is bad in it. It's as if we are losing time and that we must go to the next piece, scroll our timeline for the next thing, abolish what is ugly and preserve what is beautiful and never look back. We are not wasting time, we are using time.
>>1883064 cont.

In the same way, when we see something in a museum that we think it is bad, we feel that it is somewhat unfair. A waste of space, a charlatan artist only there for the money, a product of either nepotism or ignorance. It may be so, but that hate is also something of an envy, as if that space was sacred and reserved only for the best (what you think is best, that is, perhaps your work!). There are plenty of walls, including free for graffiti street walls. There is no waste of space and if there is, that's the museum's problem, not yours.

It's very funny when people say "my child could do that!", as if children's drawings were not amazing in themselves. These people should learn to hang and appreciate their children's drawings, that's what I think.

When looking at a piece on the wall, first, forget everything. Don't mind if it is Rembrandt, Picasso or a child's exhibition in a school. Don't ask what it represents or how it could be different. Think that, somehow, you ended up in that place in that time and there is something to feel about it. Before calling it a good or bad feeling, ask yourself what it is. What does it remind you? How does it relate to you? What work is behind it? Why is that, of all things that could be done, the artist ended up with that?

There is some authenticity behind all works, just like even a lie shows a truth (that you have something to hide, for example). To think art is either good or bad is like thinking people is either good or bad.
>>1883066 cont.

Art has absolutely no obligation to meet any standards. Art is work, it is doing. Standards come from some place else, from the question "why is that we are doing it?" and sometimes the answer to it is made by others. Ideologies we bought, opinions we took as truths, great sellers selling something we don't need. It becomes something else other than what it is.

I know this sound like an excuse to laziness, that "anything goes", but, on the contrary, it leaves us with more work. It is precisely because "anything goes" that we must ask ourselves why and what we ought to do then. When we are drawing, it could go through our heads: why am I doing this? Why am I not fighting ebola or having sex right now? What is it that I'm trying to achieve? And if I reach that, what I'm going to do with it? This thing that I'm doing, is it really what I want, or is it something that others made me believe that I want?

To hang pictures is easy, just do it. To make great art is hard. Not because the standards are high, but because there are no standards and you must fight the whole way yourself. And it may be that you look at a piece from others and not see nothing of that work, think it's lazy and ugly to look at, to think the artist is shallow. It may be, but you gain nothing from saying it, absolutely nothing. Leave it be. If the artist asks you, maybe you can give that impression and talk to him about it, this could be good for both to understand each other.
>>1883069 cont
Just not to lose track, I'd like to say that feedback is not always welcomed. I dislike that, from what I've seen here, the general impression is that any feedback, criticism and so on should be considered. Don't ask strangers for feedback, not without knowing what it means to ask it. Otherwise, you may build your work on top of a lie that is said by many. Do this, do that, work more on this, on that... As if you were not equipped with the reflection to spot it yourself. The others may see things that you don't, but they also don't know where you want to get. Feedback is something we should ask people that we trust as friends and teachers.

That's that.
Fantastic, you're in a good track!
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I wish I was your student, you seem to be a very humble person
I'm glad, that's the least I can do.
what are some good materials for a beginner to buy. types of pens, sketchbook, conte, etc
I need some help with shadowing and lighting, what should i do?
All materials have their qualities. There is no much of a secret there.

Finepoint pens are good pens to start, much better than ballpoint ones, imo. Good brands of pencil are necessary as well, because they are cheap even so that they are good.

For sketchbooks, even though moleskines are nice enough, I dislike their prices and always encourage my students to either learn to make them themselves or to buy from someone who can do it. I've been making my own sketchbooks for years now, there are plenty of good tutorials online. If that's not your thing, any brand will do as long as you check their paper. 90g/m2 is thick enough for a sketchbook, but if you like to use wet mediums, go higher. Avoid what is unnecessary, graphic covers, stuff like that. Try out different sizes, they serve different purposes. I like really small ones for notes and tiny drawings and a little bigger for other things. Some people can only work with large sizes.

Contes are great to use, but I don't know the brands enough to recommend you one or the other. They can be bold or smooth and you can combine two of them to achieve great effects.

Try out ink and dipping pens. There is a huge variety of them and it teaches a lot about control (and loss of it). Brush work too. Acrylics are a great way to study color and they hold well onto paper (thick paper, that is) and dry fast.

Always experiment different medium, play around, see how each thing work. There is no special material. I also like to encourage people out of their comfort zone. Go study photography, modelling and sculpting, or even stitching. These things are great to learn how to draw. Don't stick to the same thing over and over, abandon old media to try something new and after a few months, come back to the first to see the difference.

If you have a more specific question on materials, just ask.
I'll answer you in a second.

In the mean time, could you post a drawing, or at least tell me a little more of what's difficult to you when handling lightning?
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To be honest, I don't have a clue on how to do it, never took any lessons and I'm trying to get better at it!
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I can't even do it in squared shapes
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And this is my best work ever
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What grade would you give this self portrait?
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Thanks for your time Anon, I appreciate it.

When learning how to draw what's more important: quantity or quality?
Should I make a single 20 hours study or 20 studies, 1 hour each? What's the optimal time?
How much time should your student spend on a single drawing before moving to next one?
(pic related, my only drawing that I have on this computer :/ )
How come?
are you talking to me? I'm the one who asked about the lightining...
I'm glad you posted your drawings!

First things first, don't use the notebook with the lines. See how much better your best work looks over a white sheet of paper? I think we should sketch anywhere we can, but you have to give some merit to your drawing, do yourself a favour and get better paper, you'll feel better about the results. A simple block of Canson 90g/m2 (Sketch series, for example) is fine. When you buy your first block, pick the first sheet out and draw all over the place like a small child, use dark lines, make no meaning out of it, ruin the whole paper, drop ink on it, wrap it all up and throw it into the garbage. You know why? It's important not to save the paper for later, to lose fear of the white page, to lose fear of good materials. As silly as it sounds, this will also help you get more comfortable and more loose when drawing, which is something that is very important at all stages, but much more important at the start.

On lightning, what matters is to see things in 3D. And you have a nice notion of it for a starter, I can see that in your perspective and in the mermaid's tail. But you are still seeing things in terms of lines. Do you use mechanical pencil? Experiment with a darker pencil (4B or 6B for example, they are softer, darker but also harder to erase). It's very frustrating when the lines are where we want them to be and we ruin them with bad lightning, so that's why we are all very careful about it at the start and end up using light shades of grey. To get over that, pick a few objects around your house. An apple, a box, a plug, simple stuff. Now put a heavy light on it, from a lamp for example, and turn off your room lights. Pay attention to how light works there. Now draw it without using lines. It may be hard at first, but you need to see areas of black and areas of white. Observation is our greatest strenght.
>>1883469 cont.

You can also draw arbitrary shapes on the paper and make them tridimensional by putting shadows on them. In this exercise, and in the first one, you don't need to be too careful about it, imagine you have only two shades: black and white. After you've done a lot of these, put one more shade in between and draw only with black, white and grey.

You can do it like you did at the staircase on your second drawing and draw cubes and shapes with one side black. These simple exercises will build your confidence to observe things as light and shadow. Squint your eyes when looking and try to find what is darker and what is lighter. This is what we call value.

Another tip that is extremely helpful: draw white on black. You can use black paper and white chalk for example, or you can rub a paper black and use an eraser to draw with light.

Be bold. Don't use coloured pencils yet, experiment with crayon or even paint first. Avoid tracing photos. Before copying it, copy them through "blind drawing", looking at the thing and never at the paper. It helps training your eye (and it's fun too). When drawing hair, use full swooshy lines, see how the hair also has a shape and a form, that whole areas of it are darker than the others.

Keep drawing! I like the way you did the scales and the rooftop, it shows you are dedicated. You'll learn fast.

That's what I think of it from now. Ask away if you need any more help.
Sorry, I meant to ask OP.
I thought that author of >>1883403 was him.
I don't give grades. Are you satisfied with it? Did you gave your best at it? Would you do it differently? You used some black lines for the eyebrows and nose, how about if you used only the light lines and leave the those black areas the background showing? Just an idea.

The thumbnail is much difference than the full picture, do you have the practice of looking at your drawings from afar? Do it and you'll be able to see where there is more volume and where it is more flat.

The comic artist Moebius once mentioned that it is important that sometimes we limit our body when drawing so that our spirit can run with more freedom. I say this because I think it is fantastic to work with lines the way you did, but you may also gain a lot from patience and listening to what the drawing tells you.

If you work on a series of self-portraits this way, paying attention to them and observing how they evolve each time you can get to some really awesome results.
Thanks, i really appreciate it all!! I do draw with a mechanical pencil, i think it's easier (even knowing i should draw with a pencil) I have only used the notebook with lines because i've done it in my classes.
Thank you, you're right about the eyebrows I forgot that they matched the background, I shall mess with them and see what I get. I appreciate the constructive criticism. I am leaving here happy
That was me! :)

I don't like to put it in terms of quantity and quality because I don't think they oppose each other, but your question is important and it can also help this anon >>1883413

I see a huge number of people who pick a piece of paper, sit down and say "today, I'll make my best drawing, better than all others before!". The whiteness of the paper screams at you and you feel you ruin it with your first lines, so you erase it, and then you draw some more and erase it and you keep going through the drawing until you have everything fleshed out, but it's not nearly as good as you thought it should be, but you press on anyway. When you are 90% there you begin hating that drawing, there is a bunch of erased lines and it's not 10% of the quality you expected. Frustration.

This is me. That happened to me a lot, that's why I always mention this to my students.

To study with 500 drawings is better than to press on and on with just 5. You won't get better by erasing what is "wrong" in a drawing, because the problem is not in that drawing itself, but that you didn't develop your vision through other times. I know we all have the desire to make one drawing to rule them all and make us proud and gain many thumbs up. But when studying, it is much important to draw a huge number of times, of poses, of things.

Studying is thinking with drawing. It must develop itself from scribbling, from playing. Never use the eraser in a study, draw on top of it the right way, so you have the reference of your "mistake" there too.

If you are enjoying yourself, you can go on for hours on end in a drawing. But if it is frustrating, drop it and don't look back. Don't throw it out (throw nothing out, trust me!), look at it 6 months later and draw it again on a different paper, if you like.

I won't give you specifics of time and number of studies, because I don't believe in that. Trust your biological clock and practice not to getting attached to your studies.
Man, I was expecting this thread to be a bit troll-ish, but you sound like a very reasonable and cool person who knows what they're talking about, lots of what you said about art reminds me of my own knowledge of music, being a musician myself (and occasionally music teacher), and you seem to have a cool way to look at how to teach people.

I don't think you'd very much like teaching in university, though.
>>1883494 here
Great drawing by the way, I really liked it. I think you'd gain a lot from working with ink and bolder shades, blacks and so on. Your line has quality and you're already enough into it for me to say that it's just about keep practicing, that you'll keep getting better.

I'm glad! And it's not about dropping the mechanical pencil, they are very nice and I like using them too. They leave such a clean trace... And this is also a danger, because we get involved with this beauty and stop playing around. That's why I say experimenting with a pencil, or even with charcoal could help you add this other quality to your drawings at this moment.

I also did a huge share of drawings on notebooks during class. But even so, sneak a white paper and don't let your teacher see it!

Me too!
Thanks for the compliments, man.

But why do you say that about teaching in university?
I don't know, maybe it's different for graphic arts & in your country, but universities and, well, formal teaching in general is very much about taking a set amount of people, classifying them from better to worst, and giving the diploma to the ones who deserve it.

You don't sound like you have a very defined opinion of what constitutes good or bad art, so I guess you wouldn't rate the art itself but the work the students put into improving and developing their art, but... I don't know. It's still very, well, formal. The students aren't always enthusiastic too, and they're very numerous, so while you might get a few students who will be really interested in what you have to say, come and see you after classes for advice etc, you may deal with some people who you feel have potential but just don't seem to care or feel confident at all.

Essentially, you'll *have* to fail some students, and you seem like that could bother you. Universities and schools never expect 100% success rates, at least not where I live.
I'm the guy from the mechanical pencil, i would totally have your classes. I live in latin america, there isn't any good art schools around here, i'd really like to work with art! It's really bad that there's people who doesn't seem to care to your classes!!
Think this is the most friendly tread i've ever been to
I see your point. I learned a lot more about drawing from outside courses than I did in university classes. My teachers had a different approach though, they just said "do it" and leave us be. Then at the end they would rate what we did and it was a constant debate on what the hell they meant with our grades. Even so, university has a good environment and I learned a lot from colleagues and from other opportunities I had there.

All of my students want to be my students and I think that makes a huge difference indeed. There are a lot of problems in formal education, not only in art...

Acabei de perceber que você é brasileiro. Pois eu também sou, veja só. Eu deveria ter escrito em português. Existem sim muitas escolas de arte, mas elas estão concentradas em São Paulo, Rio e outras capitais. Depende de onde você mora. Fique ligado nas programações de instituições culturais como SESC e SESI. Você pode também buscar por artistas plásticos de sua cidade e procurá-los para visitar os ateliês e conversar. Tem que ir atrás.
Esse que você respondeu não sou eu, é um professor de música.
>Ask a drawing teacher anything.
Drawing big is the way to go, right?

How to prevent the hand from covering end or start points of a line or curve?
Do I really have to hold the pencil allllll the way at the back, or something?

I can only do it by turning the pad, but that isn't so good with easel shit.
All of those questions concern your knowledge of your body and your tools. People love to speak of dos and don'ts when it comes to that, but always put your own experience as a priority. What matters is that you learn to use your body in an intelligent way, for the purposes you are trying to achieve. A student said to me "sorry, I'm turning the pad, I know that's wrong", but it isn't wrong at all! I do it all the time. The thing is that, when facing an easel, he would have trouble, that's the awareness I wanted him to have.

So use all that you can at your favour but be careful not to get so used to it that you can't come out of it. This serves for all the "thou shalt not..." rules of art. We are used to holding our pencils close to tip because we use them more for writing and we use a lot of pen. But holding the pencil back helps with vision, with movement and with angle control, so an artist must unlearn to rely on the tip of the pencil. That doesn't mean you have to hold it all the way back, use a middle term. You can use a boxcutter to just show (no deep slice) the wood of the pencil near the tip a bit more than usual and thus forcing yourself to hold it a bit back. You don't need to go all the way back, specially not at once.

Use your bad hand as well. Find new ways to hold your pencil and see what results you can get from it. Each new thing you try is one new connection in your brain.

When doing a line, you could go through it without touching the paper. Find the end point. Then draw it from there back. That's one more way to do it.

Practice what I mention here: >>1881143

Please, let's talk there instead.

Also, if that is your regular charge would you mind lowering it since it would be an online thing instead of in person? It doesn't have to be 2 hours too. It would be wonderful if we could have a few sparse sessions within a month instead of just one.
It's interesting how calligraphers teach people not to "draw" letters with their wrist, and drawing instructors teach people not to "write" drawings with their wrist.
Eita! Cara de onde vc é? é formado em algo relacionado? Eu sou do paraná, to querendo fazer algo fora mas não sei exatamente o que... Na minha cidade é meio complicado, moro no interior!
>>1883088 Here.

Hey OP, you still here, right?
Let me ask you something, I never, I repeat, I NEVER did traditional art, I never did any life study, but today I realised that this is something so much important that I really don't know how to describe the feel when you realize you're learning something new, and the feel that I lost so much time, fortunately I started.

I know I won't be amazing today, or tomorrow, but I'll draw everyday from life, I'll draw everything, I don't even care if it looks bad at first, as I said I really wanna improve my vision and expand my visual library.
Do you suggest anything? I'm determined to not give up, do you think that's a baby step to improvement itself?
Thanks for reading this.
itt: excellent posts
OP here, I've been a bit busy these days...

Saved, but don't expect a response anytime soon, I've been out of time to pick any more students this year... I might come back for a proposal for /ic/ one day.

Hahaha, I've never realized that before. Should we blame pre-school teachers for that?

São Paulo. Sou quase formado sim, mas quero permanecer anônimo. Conheço os cursos da UNESP, USP e UFMG mais ou menos e são bons sim, com problemas, mas bons. Procure saber dos cursos, entre em grupos no facebook de cada faculdade, ou de vestibulandos em artes visuais. Converse com o máximo de pessoas e entre em contato com esse universo.

It's impossible to lose time, don't think that. That "lost time" was necessary to get you where you are now, be thankful for it. To study from life is the most valuable thing, better than any book or discussion on it. It's not even about looking bad at first, because if you think that, in a few years you'll lose your patience when something looks bad, because, supposedly, "it should look good at this point...". The struggle to draw is constant and even though others who don't practice it might compliment you for your """talent""", you won't feel it, because you are worried about the next thing.

I think never giving up is a great sensation, but also overrated. It might become an unhealthy pressure. Allow yourself to give up. And then simply don't, each day. This is not a matter of winning and losing. Some people say they won't give up and then, when it becomes too hard to continue and they don't enjoy the activity anymore, they feel guilty for it. Don't. There is no lost time, no guilt.

Draw because you want to see things better, without pretension. To work hard doesn't meant to torture yourself with it, but to always push a little more towards something unknown and hard. Instead of thinking you can't draw something, because it's complicated, delicate, or whatever, draw it. Action opens thoughts.

Guy who asked the question here.
Honestly, its a well-written and argumented post.
I would like to consider your thoughts, but the last part threw me off, especially at "The others may see things that you don't, but they also don't know where you want to get. Feedback is something we should ask people that we trust as friends and teachers."

Even though as just a mere student, I could say that this is an arrogant way of thinking and would leave the artist unchallenged and left to his own musing without any other thoughts to ponder. The feedback that friends and even sometimes teachers would give is either between "okay" and "wow you're so talented," which is all just unsubstantiated opinions that would do no help to my skills and intellect.

I'm sorry, but what you said to me is poor advice, and I'm disappoint this coming from an art teacher.
He might be describing how we're able to improve without 'needing' strict critique. If you post a picture with anatomy problems, doing more anatomy studies of your own volition is going to accomplish the same thing as someone pointing out problems and saying to "do more anatomy studies."

Also, conforming to other people's critique could create 'blander' work, because they're telling you what should be 'corrected;' without pushing boundaries, you might not find what you want from a piece.

Of course, this all comes AFTER you actually have good fundamentals and aren't just diddling away at awful doodles.
The concept of a circle of trust which is what I think he is refering to isn't asking your non artist friends about yout art and getting a pat on the back from them.

You construct a circle of trust, people who know who you are, where you are heading, what your goals are. They aren't afraid to tell you what's what about your art.

My circle of trust consists of two people, a friend who gives brutal critiques and a industry professional.

You seem quick to judge things on worst case scenario basis because it fits your current beliefes. Spend a little more time to reflect on a wide range of alternative scenarios in the future.
OP here

I understand that impression, but like >>1885545 and >>1885558 said, it has little to do with pats on the back. Your friends and your teachers, if good friends and teachers that is, will not just say it is okay or that you are talented, or just leave it as a "good or not" kind of thing. They'll take it seriously, look at your work longer than a few seconds, challenge you on trying to understand where you wanted to get with it, tell you their impressions, and so on. They might even say "there is something wrong and I don't know what it is..." and in this conversation you could learn a lot of things.

Here, you don't know where the feedback is coming from, there is a lot of empty advice ("work on proportions" and stuff like that) which leaves you with nothing. There is also a lot of criticism that is just as empty and will not make you any better, behaps a bit more paranoid about quality, but not truly engaged in finding it.

Sometimes, a compliment can challenge you a lot. Sometimes, a criticism can be empty and even comforting.

Great thread OP, may I ask something?

What would you recommend agaisnt frustration?

To give some background into this, I want to start learning to draw, but the thing I really really want to achieve with these drawings is not to come up with an amazing style to impress the masses.

I just want to be able to design (characters, landscapes, w/e) to be more specific. I have studied and work as a graphic designer and my favourite thing to do is sketch and come up with ideas in massive sheets of paper. When I try to do this with character design or landscapes or weapons or w/e however, I feel really frustrated because I am not able to translate into the paper (or computer) what I have in mind. And its funny cause I dont even care about details, I just want to be able to draw a good idea of whats in my head, I dont need perfection nor superb details.

I know what I need to do is learn fundamentals, but any other possible advice to overcome the frustration? Again its not about the drawings looking pretty, but about making the ideas in my head better translated into paper.

Thanks beforehand.
Thanks to all anons in this thread, OP especially, I've learned a lot today. Want to ask one more question, though: how to deal with shyness (or whatever it is called) when you try to sketch people on streets. I can't get myself to start because I am for some reason very afraid of people noticing me sketching them. What do?
How 2 draw?
>What exactly do you mean by symbol drawing? You mean he would say "to draw an eye, make an oval with a circle in it" and leave it at that?

One of the things he told us was to just draw in the nostils when drawing the nose. No construction, just little hoops.
OP here

Have you ever tried live figure drawing? Or even drawing outside (people or landscapes)? That is to say, to draw from live reference. Because the more you build in yourself a library of visual references, the better you'll get at putting them on paper and at facing something new. If you just go to "fundamentals" as in books and theories, you'll have a hard time thinking and planning something that is new to you. But the more you draw from life, the more you'll get used to "improvising".

An idea might be to use pen or whatever that does not comes off and that forces you to deal with your "mistakes". Since you like to work big, a good thing would be to make a swoosh with a brush with ink, without any pretension to look like anything. And then, looking at it and seeing what it looks like and then continue to draw to give that impression. Other ways to achieve this is to draw something and turn it upside down and continue into something else that you see.

This makes the process into something else, instead of thinking and then failing to put it on paper, you are looking at the paper and then thinking over it. This way, you teach yourself to look at images as if coming from the paper and not from your head.

Sometimes great artists can convey so many things with one single stroke and this may seem easier to do than, say, complex Doré etchings. But it takes just as much study. Learn from the mistakes, from adaptations and from observation.

I'm not sure if this is of any help, if you explain me more about your process or show me something I could get an idea of what is the frustrating part to you
>What would you recommend agaisnt frustration?

Not the OP but:
If you are getting REALLY frustrated with something, draw it anyway, but in your unsatisfactory way.

It's better than leaving the canvas/paper blank and gives you a head start for the next try.

I tried a self portrait for the first time yesterday and at some point I got really fucking angry and would have stopped, but I tried telling myself: You're drawing! So what if the likeness isn't there? So what if the lines are shit? You know what it's supposed to be, so finish it as good as you can.

And you know what? That calmed me down immediately and it actually became fun in the end.
Granted, it still didn'tget good likeness but removing the burden of failure was so good.

Also, once I calmed down I was able to correct the piece a bit and it turned out to be an okay head-which-is-not-mine-but-still-okay-for-my-skill-level-and-considering-I-wanted-to-not-draw-it-at-all.

Drawing your shit to the end gives you an opportunity to study your shortcomings more than a blank piece of paper and fire in your belly.
Well, in the beggining it is very weird, but the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll be with it. I like to draw people on the street from the bus, so they never notice it. I also mastered drawing the back of people's head hahaha. You could start from there.

Some people next to you will take a look at what you are doing, but there is no reason to be ashamed of it. When you do feel the shame, ask yourself "what exactly am I afraid of?". Exactly. What could it be? It's very rewarding when people nod and admire what you do there, even if it is nothing but scribbles.

Perhaps you are afraid of talking to them. I've talked to some people because I showed them I was drawing them. They always like it. It doesn't matter if it is ugly or not, believe me, people love to see themselves drawn, for narcisism or whatever.

And beside that, it pushes you even further because you have to draw with just a few glances. No staring, that's creepy. When we draw from observation we are working from memory, we look at the thing and then we look at the paper and reproduce. To study from life is always to practice this memory. That's why the more you flip from subject to paper, the better comprehension you'll have of it. Drawing in public places offer you the chance to draw like this: a quick glance at the person and then go to the paper and pretend that you are writing or doing anything else. Reproduce all that you remember, were the arms like this, like that? How was the hair again? Was the weight on the left or right leg? And then, if you can't remember, invent.

Drawing (and any form of art) can be ways to self-knowledge. You might use it as a way to better understand and work on your shyness. To be honest with yourself about it and learn not to let it overwhelm you. If this is something that really stops you from living with some degree of comfort with yourself, go seek therapy with a good psychologist. There is no shame in that either.
just doo eet

That's just sad

This is great advice, I completely agree.
Thank you for advice! I'll try to overcome my shyness step by step.
>Drawing your shit to the end gives you an opportunity to study your shortcomings more than a blank piece of paper and fire in your belly.
great advice, and an overall great thread. i've read elsewhere recently an acquaintance was offering some advice that creatives need to finish a work. even if it isn't that good at first, finish. you can revise, rework, rewrite, redraw, etc.
Wish I'd had that advice when I was a kid. Too many times that 'perfectionist' (bullshit) inside me would get pissed and I would stop whatever I was doing. I left a lot of stuff undone. :\

Thx for the advices guys.

I have been thinking a bit, and I think I am realising that maybe somehow I am putting too much effort or pressure into the sketches I make.

Let me explain, as I mentioned before, as a designer I enjoy sketching in A2s/A1s, I can easily fill them with sketches for logos, typographies or layouts, and the thing I think i've realised is that I am able to do it because I work fast and without really caring much about how good or bad they look like (cause later on I will take them to the computer and its just putting in time with the tools I already know to make those ideas look good).

So I guess what I need to do is just chill and try to do more or less the same thing when I sketch for graphics.

New questions arise from this though:

To which point should I "not care" about these sketches? how fast or slow should I be going? When I sketch ideas for logos/etc I feel like I am ussain bolt.

What other types of studies should I be combining with this to develop technique?

Btw I obviously dont expect to be doing this process forever. I think It might be a good starting point to get into at least some habit to actually draw and not stare to the computer screen having only done 3 stupid sketches for hours.

Thanks again for the advices.
OP here.

I remembered of a little story. This answers >>1883432 too on quantity x quality.

An ancient Chinese leader heard of a man who was, supposedly, the best artist alive at the time. He decided to pay a visit to the artist's home. The artist was a very simple man and received the king well, but as if he was an ordinary man. They talked for some time and the leader decided to ask him for a picture, he wanted a picture of a rooster, the symbol of his kingdom. The artist gave his price, which was very expensive and to be paid in advance, and said that he would do it, but that it would take a whole year to complete it. The king was annoyed and suspicious of it, but after some time, he agreed with the comission (at least to see what the noise was about). The king left and waited. After a full year, he knocked on the artist's door one more time and to his surprise, the artist forgot who he was for a moment,"oh, you are the man who wanted the rooster picture, right?". The artist received the king and told him to wait in a room. The king was annoyed. Then the artist came back with a large white sheet of paper, a brush, an ink stone and right in front of the king he painted a beautiful rooster with just a few strokes, to an absolutely marvellous result. The king loved the picture, said it was much more than he would ever expect, and apologized for suspecting his talents. "But why did you make me wait a whole year for this picture?". The artist took the king through a hall and opened the door to his studio. On the floor, and hanging from the walls, and rolled up, and stuffing the drawers of the cabinets... Thousands and thousands of paintings of roosters.
>To which point should I "not care" about these sketches? how fast or slow should I be going?

Well, you are already caring too much, aren't you? That's the paradox of making an effort to be relaxed about something.

One thing I think it's good for you to keep in mind is that you are thinking with your hand. Not with your head before putting on paper, but simultaneously. Notice that when you are quickly going through the ideas of logos, you are probably not even marking time and you do not simply stop to think whether that is "the one" logo or not. You are too busy thinking of the next graphic idea, one gives birth to the other and so on. This is you thinking with your pencil(or pen, doesn't matter).

When drawing anything this is how fast you should be going: along with your thinking. Do not think and then draw, draw thinking or, rather, think drawing. Instead of questioning whether you should do x or y, do something and if that's not good, draw on top of it some variations, move to the next sketch, keep going. If an idea for a logo or even if you feel like writing something, quickly jump to that. I think it's important to allow yourself to express these things, in a very broad way, to put it out whatever it is that is at the tip of your brain in that moment.
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>Notice that when you are quickly going through the ideas of logos, you are probably not even marking time and you do not simply stop to think whether that is "the one" logo or not. You are too busy thinking of the next graphic idea, one gives birth to the other and so on. This is you thinking with your pencil(or pen, doesn't matter).


>think drawing.


How the fuck could have I been this blind for the last couple of years. I just need to do what I already know.

Thanks again sir, this thread has really lift my spirit.
>That's just sad

It really was awful. I took two art classes in both my 11th and 12th grades, Foundations and Drawing/Painting. I learned jack shit in all four classes. No perspective, no anatomy, no figure drawing, nothing. It was an absolute waste of time. I can only imagine where I'd be now if I'd gotten a foundational education in those classes (400 hours combined).
Figure drawing is a separate course. I'd think you would have gotten perspective though.
>Figure drawing is a separate course

In my district it's part of the Foundations and Drawing courses.
What do u do when u dont know what to draw
Go outside and find something.
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Ok gg
Wow, you had a bad teacher indeed. I took basic online course (it took me around 2 month) and in the end they managed to teach me basics pretty well. Perspective (1,2,3 points), how to build good composition and how to see it in others people works, etc.
What I wanted to say is that you need to get classes and courses from people who are into art, who want you to improve, not to suck as much money as possible from you.
>basic online course
Do you students ever come to you with crippling depression, angst, and the thought of destroying everything they've worked on and just giving up?

What do you tell them?
Hey OP, how should I draw from life? I mean, I'm too slow to sketch people (I do not symbol draw anymore by the way) but I want to start drawing from life, I really don't know what should I do...
It's a russian one, are you comfortable with it?
Oww too bad, not at all.
I think none of them were really depressed (as far as I could tell, of course these things are specially good at disguising themselves) but a good share of my students, and some more than other, hate what they do with a passion.

As I said before, in the first class I ask them to bring their drawings, whether they think it is good or bad, not their fancy portfolio, but whatever they have, even child drawings. Most of them end up bringing just one or two that they like the most, but after they see how I react to the drawings and from our talks, they decide to bring others to the second class. I believe we have a culture of a yes or no deal, of better and worse and even though they are afraid of my judgement, they are caught surprised at how I don't see any drawing as a product of failure (how could it be?). They think that my judgement is going to be as harsh as their judgement towards themselves. And that's why, beyond all that I can say to them, this kind of thing is best to be taught by example.

Throughout the classes they often utter "tsk!" while drawing and some even give up in the middle and risk all over. With time they stop or at least reduce doing that, because they know that I appreciate their drawings even so and that their difficulty is not to be associated with failure, but with the effort that we all go through. Part of this frustration comes from the false idea that artists have it easy, it is similar to the harmful notion of talent and so they think each mistake is evidence that they won't learn.

I tell them to keep all their drawings, no matter what. I threw a lot of my own things away and I regret them all. Keep everything, even if stupid. Later, you'll look at it and see how much you've progressed.
>>1886591 cont.

You know, most people use the eraser in the wrong way, they erase the mistake and draw again on top of it. The right way is to draw iagain on top of it, with your mistake as a reference of what not to do and then erase the "wrong" lines, or even not erase them at all if it is a study. This can be used as a metaphor for a broader sense of studying drawing. Do not try to erase or eliminate what you think that looks bad, do not be anger at it, use it as a reference of what not to do next. After we have taken our heads out of a drawing, it looks different. If you give it a couple of months, it might even look as if it was done by someone else. And it is someone else, you in the past.

Drawing and any form of expression can channel a lot of bad feelings if we have bad feelings toward ourselves. A drawing is always honest and this honesty can hurt if we prefer to hide ourselves (from others and ourselves). We must learn to accept certain things about ourselves and while that is very hard to do at some points in our lives, we can begin by accepting that what we do can be good. As a teacher, what I try to do is to show that while you think your drawing is a disaster, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Afterall, your drawing is you, at that moment, with that tool. What's wrong is this self-hate, this denial, the excuses, the expectations... Things that can get you in the way of learning and getting better. This "better" is not a point in future, but a relation to the past. As they say, goals are horizons, you only try to reach them in order to take the next step and so there is no reason to hate each step as if you had to embrace the world.
>>1886592 cont.
We already feel constant pressure on drawing or doing things in a certain way. My job is to show that this pressure is a lie. And while some people think that this pressure is what makes us get better, I say it only makes people neurotic and depressed. We must accept where we are at the moment, empty ourselves from judgement and get better just as consequence of exploring what we want to do, in this case, with drawing.
First, I don't know if it is just a term in vogue in /ic/ or not, but everyone does symbol drawing, we do not cease to do it, all drawings are symbols. When we speak of symbol drawing, we are often talking about very rigid, verbal language oriented drawing, not from physical observation. But the real problem is that we acquire these symbols from others. That is, you do manga eyes because you've seen in some manga and the mangaka stole from someone else, that copied someone else... It becomes standard and so people forget why they do it in that way. To "get over symbol drawing" is to ask ourselves why we do it in a certain way. A kid draws grass at the bottom of the page because grass is on the floor, that's not wrong, it's just one way of perceiving things. But if you want to develop perspective and depth you could start seeing things through different relationships. Most people start drawing the eyes at the top of the head and not the middle, that is because the face is much more expressive and important to us than the forehead and the hair, it's only logical to draw it that way.

Notice how this is expressing ourselves (drawing) in the same way that we impress ourselves (how we feel about what we are looking). And when we let ourselves be impressed by our drawings, we notice something is wrong. The "cropped skull" with the eyes near the top might be how we perceive others, but my drawing doesn't look like them. If, instead, I draw a person with "correct" proportions, I'll get the same impression that I would when looking at a live person and that's what I'm trying to achieve. As we grow older we feel mature enough to manipulate people's impressions of our drawings, so we feel frustrated about showing people how we perceive the world and prefer to copy it 1:1, to let people feel whatever they might feel towards it. (Is this making sense?)

>>1886461 cont
On your question, just start.

If you feel uncomfortable getting out to draw, draw objects at home, perhaps a pet of yours, or family and friends. Do not ask for poses, draw as it is (perhaps it is better if they don't even notice you!). You could search for live figure drawing sessions where you live or if you have a friend that also likes drawing, you two could exchange poses (it's also a great exercise to be in the place of the model for other) (oh, and you don't have to be naked at all, don't worry). Draw your own foot, it's right there and it's alive. The possibilities are endless.

But you say you are slow and that's a very common complain. Let's say you are in a park drawing someone, you draw his little finger perfectly and then he moves. No time. Then you try again, you draw the shape of his nose, and he turns his head. Game over. If you keep doing this you'll realize by yourself that you have to move faster with your pencil and without worrying so much about details.

Here comes an exercise that uses verbal language, contrary to most others. Imagine you are showing me your drawing and I were to guess what it is that you were looking at. "A little finger?" I say, but you say "no, it was a man sitting on a bench, I only had time for the finger". Now, imagine that you are describing someone physically to me, how would you do it? You'd probably say whether it is man or woman, tall or short, wearing a hat or not, fat or thin, dark or light hair, etc. If you were to continue for three hours, your description might reach that particular wrinkle on the person's little finger, but you wouldn't begin your description from there, would you?

Draw something asking yourself these questions. First sentence: how big is it? Draw a blob that resembles the shape in 2 seconds. Second: Is that a ball, an animal or a person? Show in a few quick strokes that there are legs and arms to this blob. Keep going this way, the details are the last thing.

This is just an exercise in language, do not take it with you to say verbally what you are drawing. Describe visually, not emotionally.

Another related exercise that I do with my students is to ask them to create a composition on the table (simple objects in any way they like, a bottle, an apple, etc). First, I ask them to draw it in their own time, which usually lasts around 10 minutes. Then, with a stopwatch, I reduce the time progressively: 5 minutes, 3 minutes, 2 minutes, 1 minute, 30 seconds, 10 seconds. But at each drawing I ask them to tell me what it looks like and how much they managed to put it in. "Just the bottle, I had no time for the apple..." and then they learn to show me there is both in 10 seconds, with a tall blob and a round blob, no more than that. Then, without warning them, I say we are to do one more drawing and they think it is even faster, but I don't use the stopwatch and let them go. It's amazing how much better and loose they draw in relation to the first drawing, because they try to figure everything out in the first seconds and then they continue to flesh it and get to the details.

I am definitely going to copy this thread somewhere, because it's just too awesome to not be saved and shared.
>After we have taken our heads out of a drawing, it looks different. If you give it a couple of months, it might even look as if it was done by someone else

I can to attest to that and in some cases the drawing actually looks better than I thought at the moment, but anyway, always drawing it to the end is a great reference in any way, negative or positive.
Did you build your own table OP?

can you share the plan that you used if you like it?

Also what wood stock did you use.

I've tried to build my own tables but doug fir 2 x 5's are garbage and warp over time.
That's not my table, sorry. That's just a picture I found to the illustrate the thread, so I can't help you with that. Ask /diy/ for help.
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>I don't give grades
how to mass produce somewhat detailed leaves without spending too much time on it?
Yes, I am.
Okay, I'll post link when I get home. Wait for it :D
create your own brush and if you are working traditionally then do it bob ross style
Will someone make screencaps of this thread?
Think of them as blocks, as chunks of leaves, as a whole form that is a collection of them. Do not try to understand a tree as 1 million leaves, because it would drive you mad. Even in your example I can see you gave a stroke for each leaf but notice that they look the same leaf over and over again and what's really impressive when we look at a tree is that there are 1 million leaves and all different from one another. It's hard to draw 1 million leaves, but easy to draw a few branches and from there a few chunks of leaves and from there, leaves on each chunk. Even if you are not drawing trees as in your example, try to see through the way they are organized. Are they strapped to strings? Where are those strings? How will them be shaped coming from there? Also, what kind of leaves are they? Fresh and green or old and crispy? Which species? Not that you have to choose one or be 100% accurate, not my point. My point is: take a good long look at some leaves. Do not think you know them just because they are common, we only know better to draw something when we look at it with the attention of a draftsman.

Besides looking at it as chunks, be patient with time. Perhaps you don't even have to detail them further to give a good impression. A distant tree looks nothing like a closer one. But if you do have to detail them, learn to enjoy this time, see it as an opportunity to meditate.

Except in traditional paint and brush Bob Ross style, each stroke will exist in a natural different way from each other and that's why it works so much to do landscapes like he does (and even so, it is often way too bland). In the computer, it's very hard to achieve that naturality with a brush and I wouldn't be able to do that myself in a satisfactory way. I do think it is best to create a brush that gives the impression of a leaf than it would be to make a brush that has the shape of the leaf. That is, instead of mimicking the leaf, mimic Bob Ross' brush.
OP you made me feel so upset
I am a 5"5 asian, i got constantly beaten in basketball by people taller than me, and ALOT of poeple are taller than me.
So I comfort myself, saying I'm special, because I have drawing talent which these guys don't have

but you saying these things made me realised that these tall guys have the same talent as me. And could catch me up if they want to.And so not only I'm not special, in fact I'm inferior than ordinary people due to my height.
How could you say such thing that theres not talent in drawing?
I can say that because, in turn, you could be just as good at basketball as they are, even if you are short. Perhaps specially for being short and thus, unlike any other player.

What makes them good at basketball and you good at drawing? Aren't there reasons for them not to draw as good as you? Aren't there reasons for you not to play basketball as good as them? Is it really because you are short, or rather because you believe that you must play just like the tall guys, dunking and so on. You will never be taller than they are, no matter how much you jump, but that only means you must find other ways (in basketball or in something else).

The problem of being good or bad at something, as I'm trying to explain, is that we play with the rules of others, the game of others. If we are only here to fit in what is already there (prejudices, norms, rules, guidelines to life, drawing and so on), we will be bound to either fail or succeed. But there is much more to life than that and we must learn to find our own ways through our desires. Besides, basketball is a sport that involves competition, drawing is not. You can't change basketball's rules, but in drawing, there are no rules. If you are in a wheelchair, you can't play basketball, right? Wrong. You'll play in a special team and inside that context you can get better or not.

As you said, they "could catch up if they want to". But they wouldn't, because they won't want it, not as profoundly as you want it. Even if they say they want it at some point.
>is that we play with the rules of others, the game of others.
but we will always play by other's rules.
The rule of law, rule of capitalism, rule of social norm
I could indeed tell myself that I'll be myself and try not to play by other's rules alot. But it turns out girls used to rejected me or I (probably) get less promotion due to my height; or people won't pay for my drawing because they don't understand or value it.

These cold hard facts told me other's rule played ALOT in our life and drawing itself might not have rules; but feeding and mating does. and so in order to put bread on my table I could only draw certain things to appeal to my customers, thereby I am limited by rules

and say even if i play in special olympics, my recognition and award will never be as good as ordinary Olympics
Indeed. And we learn from all sorts of way that we cannot change the world, nor the rules, nor others. We are someone's others as well and we are of the world that creates the norms. We cannot change the rules, but we can begin changing them.

When it comes to basketball, I can't say official leagues will change the rules because you want to. But take a look at the patterns in drawing and illustration, how they changed over time, how they multiplied, how new trends are born everyday and how thousands of people copy them. These things are mutable and they are compelled by our desires, ideologies, our way of doing things. It is also compelled by who has more money and more attention.

You are saying so yourself, that the others pressure us to act and be in such a way. You don't need me saying that to you, you don't need one more guy pushing you to be in x way. As a teacher, I must remember of the opposite, that what you are describing is a situation and not "cold hard fact" (another cliché saying, opressive technique to turn these ideologies into crystal) and that the warm and hard fact is that you are a person and you have eyes and hands and intelligent capacity for understanding and emotional capacity to be sensible to the world.

In our daily lives we must "put bread on the table" and learn to play games of others, but I believe we must never accept them as hard truths and let ourselves be guided by them blindly. Sometimes you'll draw to sell and won't be doing what you like. What I teach and what I would like people to regain attention to is that they can also draw to better understand the world and themselves and that, in this context, you have no rules but the big responsibility to learn and apply your own rules.

>my recognition and award will never be as good as ordinary Olympics
That's mostly you not recognizing it. Talk to a special Olympics champion. And also question yourself whether you do this for the recognition or for the game itself.
Thanks for the advice
although my current mindset is still pretty pessimistic, I'll try to let it go one day I guess :/
>I'll try to let it go one day I guess

Is someone gonna come and kill you if you started to not give a fuck?

You won't be able to make the best of your life if you don't make the best of your life.

You rolled shit stats and you gotta work harder, so work harder.

Because you will work harder you will become stronger than the people who take things for granted and sloth out.

Why would they sloth out? Because the majority of people take the path of least resistance.

Just like you are doing right now.
Dealing with feeling pathetic is easier than working your ass off, after all.

Where does this leave you?
Under the heel of even the slacking normies.
Under the heel of the hard working other hardcore characters that also rolled shit stats.

Either quit now or work now. There is no shame in quitting if you accept that you won't be an artist etc, but there is shame in having the potential to be one and not doing it because of what ifs and co but wanting to be something.

Also. Art should make the audience, not the other way around.
People rarely know what they really want, so asking them for their opinion is stagnation at best.

The following clip is a bit pretentions but it still speaks the truth.

just like this one

It's more correct than it is not.
So, shut your pie hole about wanting to become an artist and just draw and let the results speak for themselves.
That's the best way since you won't disappoint anyone else and thus won't have more shame to wrap yourself in and procrastinate living life even more because "the world got so much worse now" because now people think you're full of it.

>in b4 you're yes-but'ing this post.
Stop being a quitter. You have time for 4chan, you have time to draw.
wow no need to be so dramatic
and no need to catch feelings
i thought i would post to this specifically.

words like talent and prodigy are only for children. like it or not, as kids some people are just better by showing up. i knew 2, one was excellent at detail work and one was excellent at capturing motion and mood, and both while they were still in grade school had a low end employable level of skill.

however they both hated drawing, so they stopped, one went head first into steroids and sports while the other went to coding flash and a walmart job after not graduating.

by the end of highschool, if you sat them down to draw they were marginally better than before (we all had classes in school where you got board as fuck and did something besides listen given they had a pencil and paper, drawing was the choice) and even than they could beat out some of the people in the higher art classes... some... but hard work took others from cant draw for shit but wants to to doing a fairly good oil painting + the sketchbook we had to keep being graded highly too.

thats all talent is, its your head start you have when you begin... if either of them were hard working no one would have caught up to them but they shat it away.
OP here, I'm bumping the thread just so that it can stay a little longer. I'm also using a trip so that I may come back some other time.
thanks op. doing god's work. also lucky dubs.
What would you say to a self-taught artist who would be considered an expert by most people, with clear vision of what he's aiming for, and having studied in depth the things which are particular to his art (goes much more than technique), but can't find anything in common with the artists of today? I know that everyone claims that everyone else is different, but these can be formed into groups with similar goals, and I truly don't fit in with any of them, having experienced different groups.
Well, I don't know you and neither do I know your context. Firstly, I would say to keep looking and not to cling to people who don't match the way you think. Sometimes we just stay around and be contempted with what we have and stop moving, move more, travel even. Go to different places, start some courses, etc. Secondly, be humble, don't even mind if people call you an expert and don't rely on your clear vision. If you take that all that crosses your path is a master, you'll learn from the most unexpected places and people. People who often don't have clear visions and have not studied things in depth. Besides that, learn to work in this scenario of being uncommon. Why do you have to have things in common to enjoy company or even nice talks on art? I have friends from various circles, this difference can be a very good thing. Another point to be made is that you could make your goals clear to other people, post online about it in some way, advertise yourself as that thing, not for recognition, but that people know that you have your own "place". I noticed you didn't mention your goal to me (and you don't have to), but sometimes people can't tell and if you stay silent, they'll suppose they are with them. If you let this inner world of yours escape to the outside, you may notice that similar people will naturally gather next to you. And, of course, don't set that in stone, don't commit to your goal 100%, experiment different things, try to understand the interest of others, multiply yourself, change if you feel you have to and don't look back. There is no such thing as "accomplished artist" as much as there aren't any "accomplished people", we are a constant process of reinvention. Talk to musicians, poets, architects, different people. They might do different stuff, but handle it in a similar way as yourself.
I was thinking of getting into a career in art teaching.

First I want to get accepted into cooper union because i feel like if i can go to the top fine arts school i'd be ready to teach high school students how to prepare their portfolios and learn a wide range of skills necessary for an art career.

my question is how much does your portfolio go into getting a career as an art teacher at a high school level.
I think it's really hard to answer market questions online because it can vary greatly from place to place, context to context.

I personally never heard of a teacher being hired for his portfolio, unless they are specifically technical schools. In high school and other formal schooling environments, they care more about your diploma, about recommendations, about your method and so on. It doesn't matter if you have no portfolio of your own. On specific private schools for drawing, then it would matter most, but it would still not be the only factor they would evaluate. I can't say much more than that, it depends, really.

It's not because you have the best drawing in the world that it will make you the best teacher. A lot of our development with drawing occurs "by accident", in that we study countless and countless hours so that we will eventually get somewhere to be proud, but who is to say how much of those hours spent studying were "wasted" on not so good of a method. In fact, to use myself as an example, I started drawing through very rigid structure of anatomy and things like that and it blocked my progress greatly, so that I had to make a huge effort to get more loose and get out of the plateau I was in, that only happened to me in university. I won't teach in the same way that I've learned. But then again, does my "free drawing" after that benefit from the early rigid structures even after I dropped then? Who is to say? It's the teacher's responsibility to think and read and discuss about those things throughout practice. What is to be kept? What is to be dropped? How should it be done anyway? And to what end, to what purpose? To debate on the purpose of drawing is perhaps the greatest thing.
How does it feel teaching others how to become a failed artist?
Hi. Thanks for replying.

I have been called humble by many people, and I suppose it's because I know there's still a lot to improve on. I have hung around artists of different types (and have often been the one to try to form groups though they didn't work out for other reasons unrelated to art), as I have said I have experienced their company, and they generally love me. In college art classes, I was often flocked to. Still, it can be quite lonely to not have a real community. I have had teachers tell me I am truly unique in my struggle, and one even told me there's really no school or community around for me, compared to other artists. I take no pride in this uniqueness. It's not that my art in the idea is unlikeable. People very much respect it and delight in it, but it's just not for anyone else it seems for a few reasons. I suppose there's really nothing I can do about it other than spread information that this type of art does exist, and make known the various sub-disciplines involved in it, and as you said talk to non-artists who might have similar visions (although that's just as difficult to find). The ones I think I would connect to most would be a bit difficult to because of age difference as well as status, however. I'm sorry that I don't specify what my vision is.

So from this I could ask, and I'm sorry if this goes beyond what should be asked to a teacher, how do you successfully form groups that are willing to learn together? Even for just drawing, without the theory and philosophy, since not many are inclined to it.

How could I successfully make known this type of art exists? And how do I make them interested? Many claim to want to (as a general description, like someone saying they want to write plays like Shakespeare), but aren't aware of all the things which are required for its completion.
what do you even do?
It feels great, I get money out of the poor idiots and so far none of them realized I was training them to fail in life. 7:^)

Well, as the other anon said, what is it that you do? That's part of what I'm saying. I can't work on your question if you just go around that. I figured this could be part of the problem if you relate to others in the same manner.

I don't mean no disrespect, but I don't care if others think you are humble or great, if they flock around you or not, if they say you are unique and so forth. I hope you don't care about it either. I understand that if one asks whether you are humble or not, it feels appropriate to say "others say I'm humble", because to say "I'm humble" feels paradoxically arrogant. But in this case, don't say anything, do not define yourself for either things, do not give it much attention and just be sure to act humble throughout life.

I don't know what you do. Is it pornographic and possibly offensive? Is it very very specific and obscure?

I rarely form any groups of students, but even when I do, there is always something that glues it all together. Drawing always come from observation, whether you are working on a comic book, painting, 3d sculpting, animation, realistic portraits, architecture, fashion design, etc... My students come from different areas just like that. And even if the emphasis are unlike each other, the effort to recognize, acknowledge and apply this emphasis can be worked around just the same no matter what you do. From what I've seen, everyone loves to meet people who do different things, they admire each others work.

>>1894193 cont
>Even for just drawing, without the theory and philosophy, since not many are inclined to it.
I can give exercises without the theory and the philosophy, no one needs to know the theory, the practice comes first and the theory is only there to those who are interested in it. That doesn't mean the practice is empty or arbitrary, it must be well thought. I try to give some of the theory because I believe that if they carry these notions with them, by the time they meet a new challenge (one that I don't even know it yet), this theory can help them develop better practices themselves. The role of a teacher is to emancipate the student, not to make him rely on what is taught.

>How could I successfully make known this type of art exists? And how do I make them interested? Many claim to want to (as a general description, like someone saying they want to write plays like Shakespeare), but aren't aware of all the things which are required for its completion.
Again, I don't know what to do (and you don't have to tell me, let that be clear). But even without knowing, I think you should question yourself on what is it that you want. You said people "generally love" you, so is it acceptance? Or do you want feedback from people who work the same so that you can better yourself? Do you want job opportunites out of it? Or is it just a cloudy sense of belonging that you're missing? Don't answer it straight away, this is something you should think about.

> The ones I think I would connect to most would be a bit difficult to because of age difference as well as status
I signed up on a watercolour workshop once. Bunch of old ladies and me. I couldn't talk about what I usually talk to my friends, and their pieces bored me to death, but I took comfort in that workshop still and I admired their technique as well. It's imporant to give in at these moments, I wanted to learn watercolour so I chose to go through that. I would never expect them to change and be more like me, I had to be more like them at that moment. If you would like to be included in a different circle of people, act like them. Even if for the time being, not that you'll age 20 years for it.
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