In Japanese internet community, following news has become a popular topic yesterday.
Some of us are embarassed , others are offended or threatend at the attitudes of such "conscientious" Westerners to our indigenous culture.
Why do they need to interfere our freedom of expression for the purpose of protection of children who are being abused in the real world?
We want to discuss this subject with people around the world.
We want to know how do the majority of your society(not the majority of 4ch) think about such a ban on fictional child porn.
This has been discussed many times. Again the article talks about child abuse while injecting images and few mentions of manga in between, as if the two had any connection at all.
How do you even determine the age of a fictional figure... it's ridiculously arbitrary. If some law comes to being they'll could just start adding animal ears on the girls and say that the animal alien girls reach sexual maturity in one year. Or something equally silly.
I really hate these stupid motherfuckers who have the guts to pick on another country's culture when it's not hurting anybody. Just fucking drawings.
It doesn't matter though, this is so deeply ingrained in the culture it cannot be removed, and any "enforcement" is just for show. Worst case scenario, just ban foreign IPs from accessing your shit.
The original argument against CP was that a child had to be harmed in the making of it.
Trying to ban fictional material is a case of "stop making things I don't like".
There's the argument that depicting it increases the prevalence of it in the real world, but I don't think anyone has ever managed to prove such a thing; as far as I know, studies find the opposite: that it provides an outlet and prevents real world incidents. Such ideas might as well be voodoo.
The Westerners who fanatically preach tolerance and equality only want it when it benefits themselves. If they don't like it, it is evil and cannot be allowed, even if it isn't negatively affecting anyone. Even if by not allowing it, they're negatively affecting people. Unprovable rationalisations for how it maybe be negatively affecting something is highly dishonest.
The concept of saying something is too "bad" to even be drawn is a real sign that society is nowhere near as developed as it would immediately seem. There will come a time when our society is going to seem just as backwards as medieval society seems to us now, but most people won't even consider this. In their minds, we've reached the end of development; for real, this time, we've discovered what is right, and this is never going to change again.
It's probably only a matter of time until Japan falls into the same insanity as the rest of the developed world. Not just on pornography.
>Why do they need to interfere our freedom of expression for the purpose of protection of children who are being abused in the real world?
"Where have all the good men gone? Why are all these losers looking at those drawings? They need to man up and marry this cougar BBW! Losers! Who's going to pay for my retirement if they keep on throwing money at those drawings? Daddy government should give me more handouts! Waaaaahhhhh"
The westerners should just mind their own business, it has nothing to do with them in the first place since it's a country's culture.
They start saying how these have a negative effect, but they overlook their own problems such as rape, murder etc.
It's not that difficult why they want to also ban drawn porns when you read articles like these:
They hate porn because it rises the expectations of men, but they like the easy money that comes from making porn. Hence, they can't ban it.
> The original argument against CP was that a child had to be harmed in the making of it.
That's just smoke screen.
They take some random images of qt girls in a manga shop and then they start spouting lies.
>The bad thing is that some people actually believe this crap
While that screencap is certainly humorous, the BBC article on it was fairly enlightening and provided some arguments hat I previously did not consider. (It also did some kind of a job presenting counter-arguments, which sites like Daily Mail would never present)
One of them was that porn will eventually reach teenagers' and kids' hands in one way or another. And if it's going to be lolicon, then the depicted contents, while just fantasy and not necessarily ethical, might disrupt the understanding and sexuality of younger folk. I can see why the material shouldn't reach younger people.
Wouldn't ban it though.
English speaking countries are all cancer tbh.
Thanks for your responds.
Your argument are familier in Japan too.
Leaving that aside , what I want to know is public opinion in your real society.
It's invisible from Japanese community.
Please tell me about it (and your nation for referennce if possible).
Most people want it banned. Well, it is banned, but there's nothing to prevent anyone getting it.
Many people feel so strongly that they want to kill anyone who even thinks anything sexual about anyone under 16, even if they'd live their entire life never harming a child. They don't care about any kind of rational arguments. Harming children is deeply wrong, and they've been lead to believe that drawings are harmful.
I think they would definitely want a ban imposed on Japan if they knew what was freely available.
Legal in america, illegal in uk, canada and australia. Mind you, those are the countries that have tried to ban all internet porn, scat, fetishes, etc.
For lolicon specifically there's nobody willing to defend it
UK here, even though I'm not British I know that here manga is not highly regarded among people .Most people have a wrong outlook on manga and anime.For example:
I was talking with a friend talking about anime and manga while some other guy came in and said to stop talking about hentai.
This is what happens in Canada when you try to buy an onahole.
Laws control the society in a good way
>Useless laws harm the people and create bad generalizations about certain things
>Too many laws and people would get arrested for stupid things ,while the real evil hides in their shadows escaping punishment.This is the case with most countries today.
As an artist, It makes me sad some people cannot tell the difference between fiction and reality.
A drawing, does not hurt anyone, as it is fictional and does not exist.
There is no hard evidence or coloration between fictional material and real world actions.
In America it's kind of a gray area, but it's mostly legal.
Some people have gotten in trouble for it before, but it wasn't JUST because of lolicon. They only used the lolicon porn to get a warrant to search their house/computer etc. If they find REAL child porn the lolicon porn gets added as a crime (they have to, it would look bad if they just suddenly decided only the 3d porn mattered in court). If they only find lolicon porn, they might get taken to court, but that's it. Nobody's actually been punished for it.
And good for them, owning actual video of someone's 7 year old daughter getting fucked by a fat man is disgusting.
Americans in general think it's weird, but we think everyone's fetish is weird, even though we all have one.
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Adam and eve being the first and only two humans would have forced incest as soon as the second generation.
I have no clue why bible fuckers for all the love they have for the book, do not even know it's basic story.
Where's that mockup article with the headling "Society that obsesses over sexualising real underaged girls outraged at Japan for not banning sexualised drawings of underaged girls" with a picture of some Disney Channel girl in a bikini?
Thanks for a lot of your reports.
On line , almost of us can tell fictional CP from real child abusement regardless of generation.
But in real life , we see a lot of different attitudes to manga CP.
Most of Elderly people who are not familiar with manga culture and internet , and not so trained thinking logically , are against to manga CP.
In contrast, people under about 40 yo, seems to be accepting it.
Whereas, even youth , who has no chance to touch manga culture at all, can hate it.
There're so various postures , that we have no idea how will Japanese legislation against CP turn to.
The first quote says that the man that raped the women has to offer the father something valuable in order for him to marry her.Since he has raped her.Also he will not be allowed to divorce.
>At the beginning it was understandable since there were only 2 people, also that is the old testament .We now follow the new testament which forbids incest.
>In contrast, people under about 40 yo, seems to be accepting it.
Unfortunately in america its the opposite. Neo-puritanism is popular with young people and many young people advocate censorship in many ways, especially when it comes to sexual content in fiction media for some reason. Neo-puritanism is close to feminism and gets much support this way.
Where are those studies showing the decrease in sex crimes with the increase in available loli material?
Make a handy info graphic that can be reposted throughout the internet.
Where did you get this info? Kids watch Minecraft "porn" on YouTube these days, and I wouldn't be surprised if half of them browse tumblr for lewd images from their favorite American cartoons. Also, they may be in favor of censoring things so that no one gets "triggered", but I bet most of them would also be in favor of scrapping obscenity laws.
>Adam and eve being the first and only two humans would have forced incest as soon as the second generation.
A common misunderstanding - even if you believe in creationism, which isn't necessary, the Bible doesn't say that Adam and Eve are the *only* humans created, merely the first two.
Wherever you go or ask, normal people in western(ized) societies have been brainwashed from their childhood so that anything that can be remotely linked to CP in their brains appears as a horrible crime deserving of death. Most people will react with disgust when presented with the idea and agree to it being banned without giving it a second thought. However, most people won't actively campaign about it. What's most worrying is braindead soccer moms who can't think for themselves but can be told and convinced that everyone who wants to masturbate to the stylized and relatively unrealistic manga depicting lolicon characters are really just venting their frustration over not being able to rape and mutilate their dear Billy and will do so at any chance they get.
Some people have compared this issue to the video game violence issue that came up when videogames started going mainstream, but they are fundamentally different. Both deal with trying to ban fictional activities that harm no one for no good reason, but the difference is that video games quickly reached the general population to the point that they are completely naturalized now. Since they are a normal thing, all these movements to ban fictional violence have died down. However, lolicon manga will never reach anywhere close to mainstream and therefore opinions on it can safely remain against it without making people seem old fashioned and assholes attacking free speech, which is what they really are.
For this reason, I believe that we'll sadly just keep getting attacked and Japan won't stop censoring more and more of the manga industry to adapt to the emerging retarded "trigger" mentality that hails to the west, including things like lolicon first, and possibly sexual violence of any form later. Because they honestly believe fictional acts done to fictional beings are offensive and degrading.
I live in America, and in a state where viewing/possessing 2D loli is completely legal.
However the overwhelming public mentality would result in anybody publicly revealed to have any lolicon to be shunned by basically everyone and treated as an actual child molester.
Honestly, the matter outside Japan is a lost cause. At most we can expect laws to ignore it, but I doubt they'll ever openly allow lolicon content. Only Japan matters, as they are the main producers, and legislation against it there would be able to destroy it overnight, fucking us all over, Japanese or otherwise. Not that there's anything we can do.
We have nothing that would make us think that they weren't fucking their sisters so I don't think that would be a common misunderstanding. Jubilees isn't canonical for most churches but it does say that they were marrying their sisters.
Even if we ignore Adam and Eve, all the Ark kids would have had to have married their first cousins to make more babies.
I can hear those judgemental, herd mentality Western normalfags now answering every argument with, "I don't care, you're a pedophile", despite the fact that a loli drawing is just that - drawing. It's somebody's art work. That's protected (in America) by freedom of expression, for the time being. Regardless, it would behoove everyone to encrypt their HDDs, because the cops will arrest people for anything, if it returns a profit.
>In America it's kind of a gray area, but it's mostly legal.
Fellow Murrican here. That's what I've read on Wikipedia. Going by what you've said, some dude could own 5 TB of loli, and so long as there isn't any real CP in the mix, they'd be fine. I still wouldn't save that stuff locally anyhow. Just because the feds won't arrest you for it doesn't mean your parents/friends won't find it one day & think there's something "wrong" with you.
It's not that different in various places part of the EU either.
There is an EU law which would place depictions (of under 18) into illegal territory, that countries have 'accepted'.
But then countries have their own age of consent nonsense which is usually does not match the age above, you end up in a situation where convincing a 14-year-old girl to have sex with you is more legal than having an image of one. Even if the person involved is just the girl herself. In practice it falls apart, and I have not heard of it being particularly enforced in this Eastern European country.
Why are you guys even getting worked up over this?
They try this every single year and every year it's the same result.
People who can't tell the difference between fiction and reality whine about banning things they don't understand.
It's unrelated to your image.
And it's fake anyway.
I hope they ban loli everywhere. I am pretty fucking tired of lolicons and their denial "ugu I am not a pedophile, I am a lolicon!!".
The age of fatass will reign soon. Enjoy it while you can, degenerates.
>owning a colored drawing of a fictional loli is a capital crime and deserves punishment.
I wonder if people realize how stupid it sounds.
I mean, you can't be that stupid.
Might as well say that owning a picture of a 2D knife makes you a rapist and a murderer.
This is what America thinks of lolicon.
Yeah. I don't have anything that isn't like, vanilla sex with adult women on my computer for that very reason. I'm not into loli, but like I said before, we're all into really weird shit in some capacity. Nobody'll admit it if they find little anime girls peeing on a faceless salaryman on your laptop though.
I think the best protection against having to worry about the feds going through your shit in the first place is to just stay as far away from cp as possible. Loli hentai is just an easy excuse because people are way more careless about it. Kinda like how every drug kingpin is pulled over for not using their signal in a right turn only lane or something. I wouldn't be surprised if the dudes that went to court just for loli stuff were into other shady shit too.
Everything is illegal in Germany, especially this.
>This was certainly true for thrice-divorced Shirley Yanez, 59, who has been celibate for 15 years.
>Her turning point came shortly after her third marriage ended, when she fell desperately ill, due to a 8lb fibroid in her uterus.
>The condition, she knows, is a direct legacy of a promiscuous youth.
Haha, oh wow.
>'Rejecting advances is not something that, at my age, I have to contend with very often but part of my work is teaching young girls that sex should be a reward for men who put them on a pedestal and treat them well,' says Shirley.
It just keeps getting worse. I don't want to live on this planet any more.
Worst thing about this is, you literally cannot argue against it with being labelled a paedophile and essentially being restricted for work ect. People jump on that shit, saw some guy e d up in jail for ordering an anohole with loli drawings on it.
After getting charges dropped he was unable to find a job anywhere and received constant hate mail, not to mention his difficulty finding a lawyer
>Nobody's actually been punished for it.
Wrong. Even if it's only hentai you will be charged with criminal obscenity, and there was a famous case from 2008 or so of exactly that happening. He took the plea deal in exchange for a reduced sentence because no jury is going to look kindly on a case like that.
The French government started to block sites that contain loli and drawing it, even for yourself, is now illegal. They used the attack of Charlie Hebdo to pass laws against the online terrorism who just help them to spy us more than what they were doing already.
Sorry for the bad english.
>The French government started to block sites that contain loli and drawing it, even for yourself, is now illegal
I thought French comics were full of naked kids anyway. Unlikely they're blocking loli. .
When you're faced with 20 years in prison vs 6 months of jail and it hangs in the balance of whether Joe Fuckhead jurymember sympathizes with your stack of Comic LO you'll do the most self-preserving thing too.
The modern US criminal justice system is engineered to bypass justice and extract plea deals. And it's successful something like 97% of the time.
I'm sick of all you internet types screaming the end of the world and then acting like total pussmasters whenever someone suggests you just fight for the right to jack it to what you want to jack it to, while blaming it on other people and declaring the situation hopeless. You need to grow some balls like the fags. And no, it's not different. There are still places where they'll get killed and admitting being a fag will still get them shunned in more places.
Not to mention most people cant afford lawyers, which means you'll get an overworked, underpaid public defender who may only have MINUTES to access your case, which means you wont even have a lawyer or he'll just tell you to plead guilty. its fucked up.
This. (though I don't know what I'd have done in that case, so I feel a little bad calling him a dumbass)
Even if he had gotten charged it, it wouldn't have been for lolicon. During that very case it was deemed unconstitutional for him to be charged for it. It would have been for having "obscene" porn. Which under their definition is basically all porn that's been created in the past 40 years which would have been really hard to argue. Granted though, the issue wouldn't have arisen in the first place had he not had the lolicon stuff (presumably).
Also looking back at the case, what the fuck was he doing with laser disks?
>someone suggests you just fight for the right to jack it to what you want to jack it to
That's not what you did; you whined that somebody was a pussy long after he'd backed down. Ideally everybody WOULD fight for their rights. We all believe this. Some people think about themselves. I don't see you protesting on the streets for your rights.
Hell, you can fight for it right now. Mail lolicon to your local police station and get your day in court.
You're delusional if you think anyone challenging anti-homosexuality laws legalised it.
Social change only happens for economic and political reasons. Civil/human rights are just a nice way to present it to people.
>During that very case it was deemed unconstitutional for him to be charged for it.
I recall reading a court ruling on this, but do you have the source on hand?
Economics creates the superstructure that social movements exist in (nothing completely inviable will ever take off) but social movements affect politics. A lot of people fought for desegregation; the fact that it ended (in the United States) when it did wasn't some fated inevitability.
Such a person would have to be absolutely spotless.
You have to realize that once you fall into the crosshairs of the prosecutor their sole job is to crush you using every tool available to them. And overreaching bloated laws give them A LOT of those.
So they'll dig in and throw an ass ton of trumped up charges with mandatory minimum sentences of years at you and say "see, if you just plea out to this one charge we'll drop all those others." So at this point you're faced with going to court and if you're a NEET from 4chan that means with an overworked public defender who doesn't have time to read your case and being tried for a dozen charges up to their maximum bajillion year penalties. Or you cut your losses and take your whatever months or single digit years for the one charge they are offering you via the deal and go meet up with the other 1% of the population behind bars where you can enjoy trying not to get beaten or killed.
It's all abjectly horrifying to think about and makes me feel very scared about our society and life in general.
Just take the fucking years and be a martyr. Do what you can to let other know it'll be them if they don't fight for freedom of speech/drawing/whatever. The shit will get thrown out eventually and you'll probably get released early. Some group might even raise funds to help you appeal the decisions, since it's a matter of artist freedom, not a real debate over whether it's okay to fuck kids. It's not like you have anything to do outside of jail anyway.
>B-but the big black guys are gonna rape me when they hear I was fapping to cartoons
In Poland the law is convoluted and very inefficient, unable to keep up with times. We won't see loli manga banned any time soon-most people don't even know what it is-but anti-pedo sentiment is strong and most people would like to ban it if they knew about it.
You didn't hear me at all.
By the time you get to court every other aspect of your personal life has been violated and because of the way the law is written that SURELY includes numerous other charges, because everyone breaks the law all the time, probably in ways you aren't even aware of. If the case went to court solely about hentai it would be an accomplishment. Even if the jury tossed out that charge you'd likely be going down for any number of other things. That's part of why pleas are so effective. The whole thing is designed this way.
>"When it comes to particular, extreme child pornographic content, manga should be banned,"
I dont' like thig ban it.
>"finding the right balance" between artistic freedoms and the need to protect children.
How many children get hurt because some manga?
>"I accept that the freedom of expression argument should outweigh, should prevail when it comes to adult pornography,"
Why is so different, Manga violates no one rights
>as she pointed to poverty, a lack of gender equality.
Feminists are behind this bullshit "equality" is a very flexible word for them, they want "equality" of results rather than equality of options
Foreginers have nothign to do whit this, they can ban whatever they do not like in their countries
Why they want to change others country laws.
>everyone in a country of your choice that had downloaded loli was arrested and imprisoned,
It would flood their prisons beyond capacity and make people wonder why they were wasting so much money and time arresting a large portion of their population over cartoons.
Most of these laws say <"18", you know, not just "loli". Basically anyone that's ever downloaded anime would be arrested.
If I read that right, about halfway into page 6 the focus on the argument turns to them trying to prove the comics are depicting obscene sex with a child, not just sex. Which would mean that if you can somehow draw not obscene lolicon porn you're golden.
But like i said before, their definition of "obscene" is insanely subjective (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test) and their argument probably only held up for as long as they did because they were in the middle of hickville Iowa where the cops have time to follow some dude home and go through all this trouble because he's jacking off to shota.
I'm not actually against it, provided the law said "depictions of prepubescent humans" and not "any character judged to be under 18, regardless of their stature, bust size, species, or author's personal statement of age of the author's own created character."
>None of the laws I've ever heard of actually have to do anything with pubescence
That's what I'm saying. People keep calling these "anti-loli laws", but every one is worded more like "we can arrest you for whatever anime porn we feel like"
>you end up in a situation where convincing a 14-year-old girl to have sex with you is more legal than having an image of one. Even if the person involved is just the girl herself.
So retarded laws a guy can get arrested if his underage gf send him a photo of herself naked. Kids have acess to cameras and internet.
Like this >>14277778 anon said
>The original argument against CP was that a child had to be harmed in the making of it.
Isn't true at all
You're pretty much never going to get in trouble if you stick to 2D. It's protected under freedom of expression laws.
There is a grey area in that law that says something like 'non-photographic images can be ruled as real CP if it's sufficiently lifelike' but its purpose is to be able to persecute people that take CP and apply like photoshop filters so it appears like a drawing. It was never used to incriminate actual 2D.
Are you serious?
I'm pretty sure a good portion of 4chan grew up seeing -real- CP on the internet more than once be it because some spammer or one too many porn site clicks. We're a bunch of autists here, but by no means criminal.
What part of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" is a new argument?
There was also a case in Puerto Rico where the guy was caught with a DVD of Lupe Fuentes, a completely legal pornstar. They even called a doctor to the stand who insisted she was underage. They had to fly out Lupe herself to the trial to prove her age and clear his name.
Well over a decade ago, CP was all over the place on the internet, you could find it easily from just a google search, and even if you weren't looking for it, you'd probably encounter it trying to pirate random shit anyway. It wasn't just a 4chan thing.
They would if they could. All porn would also be banned in a heartbeat if people wouldn't immediately just go "fuck everything" and make porn of everyone and everything since it was all illegal anyway. CP is in the realm of acceptable targets, so if they can make something seem like CP, they'll go after that too.
Thank goodness this feminist thing is in full swing. If they tried to say a women looked like a child because she was short and flat, they'd probably flip their shit at misogynists defining a woman's age by her body development or some shit.
But then they'd be faced with the choice of also condemning porn actors who did similar things. "It's wrong to simulate a child in porn" vs "It's wrong to define a woman's age by her looks"
This is /jp/, we do stick our dicks more than other boards but we don't stick our dicks on crazy. We only stick our dicks on pure things from Japan. You can learn more in the onahole general.
It's funny how this old hag visits Japan for a week, finds something she dislikes, and immediately wants to ban it despite the fact that Japan has dealt with this on their own for a long time already.
Yeah hag, your opinion is the only one that matters.
This graph is full of shit for Canada. Federal law applies to provinces too even for local cases:
Belgium , big history with child abuse here so ... , i'm pretty sure that's somewhere you dont want to step with the mainstream peps
French government is hypocritical as hell. Hentai sites (such as chan.sankaku) are blocked, webcomics are censored and yet you can see Stu Mead's shit at an expo. Only because this is considered "art"
>public opinion in your real society
In the last appropriate survey* 71% of respondents wanted to punish pedophiles with death penalty.
It's #1 crime on the list, followed by murder, terrorism and rape, all in 50-60% range.
On the upside? is that anime is impossible to find in Russian retail (especially outside of two capitals), let alone lolicon manga or games. It doesn't sell digitally either because piracy. This doesn't prevent Internet censorship agency Roskomnadzor from ordering local ISPs to block web sites hosting illegal imagery (such as sankakucomplex), which they do. Yes, underage girls in sexual situations are illegal here regardless of whether they're real or not.
If only our genius lawmakers didn't blindly follow civilized (ha) and progressive (haha) West and grant human rights to pixels.
I only have data on pedophilia because actual lolicon is a niche within a niche within a niche nobody heard of in Russia.
Also, all replies in /jp/ are traditionally one-sided because pic related.
* April 2015, http://fom.ru/Bezopasnost-i-pravo/12128 (GoogleTranslate'able)
P.S. Also please don't think that Russia follows western lifestyle because we don't think so.
>TO WHAT DEGREE DO YOU CURRENTLY FEEL THAT YOUR VALUE SYSTEM AND SELF-IDENTITY ALIGN WITH THOSE OF WESTERN CULTURE?
>This is not very important to me
>I don't feel this at all
I'm not really familiar with actual CP, can't comment on that.
LMAO Russia has MLP fags everywhere
me:It's a circle
them:Oh no it's an abstract image of a women's genitalia, hello arrest this disgusting fuck.Because I could not get a decent degree in University and now I must ruin the lives of other people.
Meanwhile in South Africa...
>In October 2001, a 9-month-old girl named Tshepang was raped by an HIV-positive man and had to undergo extensive reconstructive surgery in Cape Town. In February 2002, an 8-month-old infant was reportedly gang raped by four men. One has been charged.
>50% of South Africa’s children will be abused before the age of 18.
But who cares about real babyfuck in Africa? Those are niggers! We live in a world where we would rather give food to a piece of paper from a developed country than to a dying child in Africa.
Can you stop boogey manning. Loli is considered socially unacceptable and morally wrong by most of the world, and most people could not care less if it were banned. This has nothing to do with SJWs.
No one here cares. The aristocracy in Germany is too busy fucking children themselves.
Seriously though, this is one the only good things here. Germany doesn't care about your 2D fetish.
Those are the ones that survived. The damage was so great that in the place of the vagina, anus, urethra and bladder there was only one gapping hole. The real stories that from Africa are more fucked up than 99% of the fucked up niche porn in Japan. Even the baby from the guro hentai Mai-chan's daily life was raped only once and the quickly killed instead of being gang raped to death in a much more bloddy and violent way. I bet the author was trying to be as shocking as he could when he wrote that manga but no matter how perverse he tried to be he couldn't imagine that in real life worse things were happening.
Funny that you say that, I jack off to some really extreme violent and disturbing shit, but I have never hurted anyone. Then you have all those typical dudebros who have no control over their emotions and always get in fights and rape women
>Loli is considered socially unacceptable and morally wrong by most of the world
I wouldn't care but it's annoying to see people pulling up the moral and crime card out of their asses for something like having sex with underage girls.
I mean, seriously? Don't you have better fucking things to fix before whining about someone having some pictures of some unreal girls?
To be honest the viewing of all child pornography should be made legal. In America anyone can look up a video of a child getting burned alive or beheaded, but having an image of a naked 15 year old can get you 10 years in prison.
Either make the viewing of recorded violence illegal, or make child pornography legal. And as for drawn child pornography, it's completely separate from this whole argument and the UN is retarded.
Some feminists are opposed to pornography, arguing that it is an industry which exploits women and which is complicit in violence against women, both in its production (where they charge that abuse and exploitation of women performing in pornography is rampant) and in its consumption (where they charge that pornography eroticizes the domination, humiliation, and coercion of women, and reinforces sexual and cultural attitudes that are complicit in rape and sexual harassment). They charge that pornography contributes to the male-centered objectification of women and thus to sexism.
Welcome to the future where all porn is illegal!
Guess, who is winning? Little by little they are banning porn. First drawn porn, them adults with flat chest, little by little they are increasing the list of things that are considered unacceptable.
The point is that the UN is worried about fictional crimes and ignore real crimes because they are a political tool and doesn't really care about people. It is like instead of invest in better education, police and work to reduce crime rates they just try to ban action movies.
They are doing this for the Olympics, the US is afraid that westerners come into contact with things they deem bad taste and might see the other perspective of the argument. There have already been legislations and they are planning to do more ( highly likely criminalisation of prostitution to prevent sex tourism ).
The only thing they've done so far is the first, which came as part of a "tough-on-crime" package sponsored by conservative Republicans, long before anyone on the internet had even heard of a SJW, and was ruled unconstitutional anyway.
If you want to live in a Fallout like world (since they will bomb everyone that opposes to their faith) where everything is fucking ruined and 3rd world will be similar to a heaven that once existed, plus having to pray like 5 times a day otherwise you'll be stoned to death, not to mention overall poverty because overpopulated since muslims breed like rabbits just to shag with brown children, sure.
>If you want to live in a Fallout like world (since they will bomb everyone that opposes to their faith)
Now, now, Muslims got bombed harder by other countries than they've bombed those countries.
Since we live in a country where Islam is the official religion, any porn or nudity is forbidden. But our government is too leeway with enforcing that rule because they're now more concerned about being a corrupted piece of crap.
As for the public, maybe mostly not favor it, but as long as nobody bring up that topic, they just don't care.
>"sex-positive" feminists are in favor of pornography because it helps erode conservatism and the taboo on sex
They're generally in-favour of something like this:
I can't seem most men ever wanting to consume that; it's essentially a picture book form of the female erotica genre.
>are we heading towards a shimoneta like future
Is that that show about people who weren't supposed to know about sex being used as a plot device for ecchi and near ero? Seemed stupid.
Also nah, porn is like alcohol, if they ban it entirely, people will just outright ignore it + make whatever kind of porn was banned before. Or else prostitution and strip clubs will skyrocket. Maybe even soaplands in America.
Is /jp/ willing to join the yakuza's contraband eromanga distribution division?
Post-modernists attempting to actually solve a ``problem'', instead of just complaining like they usually do, but ultimately failing to anything of value.
So, they want the people portrayed in porn to develop a healthy, respectful relationship before having sex that both parties want and enjoy, in order to portray it as meaningful and connected to the rest of our life? Honestly, sounds like types of VNs would be right up their alley.
It's nothing to do with that.
It's an attempt to get men to be attracted to women in the same way as women are attracted to men because they think any gender differences are entirely due to socialisation and cannot possibly have any genetic basis.
Men are attracted to the aesthetic of a woman, which includes how she acts.
Women are attracted to what a man has, and what he can do. They often mistake this for being attracted to the man himself, but if you take a doctor and make him a call centre worker, he suddenly becomes a lot less attractive.
Of course, they think the female form is the "correct" one, so men must change, and that men being allowed to continue existing in a different way to women is the cause of everything bad ever.
It almost certainly won't work; the education system of all Western countries has been feminised and the result has just been lack of male participation and achievement, not males becoming mentally female.
If they ever somehow manage to gain significant ground, men will either not consume their shit, or skip to the part with any aesthetic appeal, masturbate, then quit.
I'm from Scandinavia
We tend to be notoriously left-wing and have a huge focus on equality. People don't care about Japan or manga and few know what it is. I don't think many people would care even if they knew since it doesn't involve actual children. Some probably would. As long as it's not a problem here few would care about Japan's laws. When people here get involved in other countries politics it's either because it's stuff that affects us or involves nearby countries. Japanese cartoons and other fictional things just isn't a match for Syrian refugees and middleeastern terrorists. Japan is so far from us culturally that no one here cares. I would have never known these things even existed if I hadn't visited 4chan.
I remember there was a story on the national news a lot of years ago about an artist that held an exhibition showing a ton of different loli manga images in order to raise questions and start a discussion about free-speech. It sparked a lot of controversy and I think maybe it was shut down by authorities in the end. I don't think he was charged with anything and I'm not sure if it's even illegal to own that kind of material. But it was controversial because it was loli stuff involving very young children. Had it been stuff involving teenagers I don't think it would cause outrage. Teenage sexuality isn't uncommon or discouraged here however it's never explicit. Teenage nudity probably isn't uncommon if you go a decade back in time.
I haven't seen heard anything about those issues here ever since.
I don't know our actual laws regarding pedophilia but I remember there was a teacher in my childhood school that was arrested for showing two students child porn as part of a "school project". I think he went to jail for two years. That's not a lot even by our standards but my country is more focused on rehabilitation than punishment and these things will not legally follow you for the rest of your life.
>I can see why the material shouldn't reach younger people.
Such material was never meant for a younger audience. A lot of bullshit is accessible to those who are too young to be bombarded with, and if the "foolproof plan" is to ban it altogether, we will have nothing left at the end of the day.
The west is crazy arrogant in thinking that everything bad that happens on their home turf can be blamed on something other than themselves. Rock music was a favorite in the 60s. Rap/hip-hop in the 80s/90s. Violent video games in the 00s. America is fucking terrified at thinking that the fault might lie within their social infrastructure. They want to fingerpoint at the media and ignore that over half the population live in run down abandoned shitholes that should have been renovated or fixed up at least 30 years ago and now the damage is so crippling and widespread they can't do shit about it. Meanwhile, Europe has loli banned while purposefully ignoring the pedophilic rape train due to not wanting to appear as "racist" for busting down human trafficers with Middle Eastern heritage/origin.
The criminalization of loli/shota and materials like it is a farce to hide embarrassing incompetence by padding arrest statistics.
>They hate porn because it rises the expectations of men.
They will come up with something like: these characters are unrealistic or is wrong for a teenage boy to fuck King Arthur.
This article is fucking garbage. It's covered in pictures of manga and games half of which aren't even pornographic, but the majority of the text in it talks of actual child erotica.
How are drawings and real children remotely the same?
There's a huge disconnect between the title of the article, the photos shown, and what the UN actually said.
Daily mail is absolute trash at reporting.
the countries that started out with much freedom
are now very authoritarian leaning
the ones that started out very authoritarian
are now very free
makes you think
When investigating existing case law in Canada, there were two cases that we found regarding how to determine the age of a minor. The BC supreme court stated that when the age could not be determined, the judge needed to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that the person was a minor. The Saskatchewan court of appeals on the other hand went the Australia route though, where they came to the conclusion that the age or determination of age was irrelevant, and that it was child porn if a 'average observer' would believe it represented it as such. Neither of those precedents are binding in other provinces, so how others interpret the law is up in the air. Since the supreme court of Canada ruled in the R v Sharpe case that 'persons' in the child pornography law refers equally to real and imaginary persons, this applies equally to literature and anime. As those two cases show though, there's still wildly different room for interpretation from judges.
>Daily mail is absolute trash at reporting.
The average person cannot be trusted with freedom, as they'll inevitably use it to strip themselves and others of it.
If you make and tenet of freedom unbreakable, they'll just redefine it.
Never heard of it. I see those games all the time. I don't think I've ever heard about any game being banned but looking it up I can see that they banned some sports game due to in-game advertising that was against the law.
>The concerns were raised when an internet forum user commented that three underage characters in the game could be viewed from angles that could be considered lascivious
>Four United Nations staff were fired for sharing child pornography on email, while another staff member was sacked for using an official vehicle to transport marijuana, according to a management report on criminal cases in the year to June 30.
Ban drawings, they said
We were both lucky and unlucky to have a case go to the supreme court. This showed two things.
- The law should not include cartoon girls.
- The public opinion is that lolicon porn is not a crime. (Seen in news comments)
That does however not mean public opinion is positive about lolicon. It is viewed as creepy and pointless. They just accept there are weirdos out there that are harmless.
I saw a cool thing once in Canadian law. There is a law that literally reads:
- Anal sex is illegal.
And then it lists exceptions to the law, that pretty much boils down to "As long as there is consent and the people are humans, it is fine"
It is kind of my favorite Canadian law. So short and clear, with exceptions making the law pretty much useless except "In case of rape or animal abuse".
"real society"/Public opinion equals that of a Christian society, so the norm is that it is not accepted, even if it's fictional.
Legally, it might be another story though. I'm not a lawyer or versed in interpretations of laws. What I can interpret, though, from the two that seem to concern fictional lolicon material:
>Artículo 181. Quien fabrique, elabore por cualquier medio o produzca material pornográfico o lo ofrezca, comercie, exhiba, publique, publicite, difunda o distribuya a través de Internet o de cualquier medio masivo de comunicación o información nacional o internacional, presentando o representando virtualmente a una o varias personas menores de edad en actividades de carácter sexual, sean reales o simuladas, será sancionado con prisión de cinco a diez años.
>La pena será de diez a quince años de prisión si la víctima es una persona menor de catorce años, si el autor pertenece a una organización criminal nacional o internacional o si el acto se realiza con ánimo de lucro.
> Artículo 182. Quien posea para su propio uso material pornográfico que contenga la imagen, real o simulada, de personas menores de edad, voluntariamente adquirido, será sancionado con pena de prisión de tres a cinco años.
In short, it points out that any depiction of people, "real or simulated", that are identified as minors is illegal.
What this may end up meaning in court, though, is that they have to link it to a real citizen/person. So a drawing of a real girl is illegal, but a drawing of a fictional girl might not concern that law. The "simulated" part is the tricky one, since drawings could be considered a simulation by a silly judge, or a decent lawyer might argue that you need a real-world counterpart to actually have a simulation of something.
I'll try to explain in (broken) Japanese as well.
Thank you for a lot of information.
These are the great helps for me to understand international opinion.
And the other day, I got another good news.
The news reassured me a bit that not almost people in the international society is for the ban of manga CP.
But it is sad that not a few nations are banning it.
As an Otaku, I feel necessity to appeal the right of creating and enjoying manga CP to international society, to
not Otaku people in the world.
Whether a nation bans manga CP or not seems to depend on the rate of popularization of manga culture.
I'm glad of your good Japanese.
Neither of those look like kids. One is normal weight, the other is anorexic. However, both of them look "underage."
I dislike this term too, because the definition of CP is "porn of anyone under 18" whereas loli images typically won't be of 15-17 year olds, who still count as CP. With that, it needs to be understood non-loli eromanga about high schoolers is still "manga CP" if these sort of laws get made and passed, even if it's not young kids. A lot of people just focus on lolicon works, but porn of any older schoolgirl would count if someone really wanted a reason to prosecute you.
I don't know if Japan's bans would just just be prepubescent types, prepubescent and early teens, or all <18, but you should keep it in mind it's not just "little kids" that get banned in the west, although you're probably only likely to have someone become angry if it is a young child.
A final note: Laws tend cover adults who look like children too. Children, adults who look/act like children, and children who look like adults would all be treated the same. I think the one, or one of the previous ones, against cartoons in USA also said that their actual age didn't matter, nor if they were human or not. (So a 25 year old catgirl that was flat chested and 4 foot tall would still be a "kid" under the law.)
>Whether a nation bans manga CP or not seems to depend on the rate of popularization of manga culture.
Probably. Westerns think all anime characters look like children for some reason. It has to do with their faces, which probably is one reason for what happened in >>14292970
There was never a problem with it before, but nowadays even porn of western cartoon characters will get you arrested. Even so, there's never been an article like "We must find and stop people drawing Simpsons porn". It only focuses on Japanese creations. Probably because erotic works are so prominent that there was a period a couple decades ago where people thought Japanese cartoons = porn and nudity.
>tfw you once saved a small folder of those little girl swimsuit models, you know the ones, but you have no idea where you put it after regretting it so you can't delete it
Many people think that 18 year old highschool characters are young teens.
Probably has something to do with different rates of ageing between the West and East; real life Asian university students are often considered to look like children.
>Whether a nation bans manga CP or not seems to depend on the rate of popularization of manga culture.
You could say it has to do with awareness and intelligence. Everyone is pro banning things they don't know what it is, and it sounds negative.
If they were to say "Ban drawings of children enjoying life" you'd have very few who agree, and yet it could be the same drawings.
The west, and especially America hates youth in general. They are overprotective of their kids and want them to remain kids as long as possible, but this in turn means they aren't taught anything, given any responsibilities, and can't work until they are adults. So they become irresponsible idiots who drain your money with no return for nearly 2 decades. Anyone who wants to willfully associate with them must be some sort of pervert who just wants their bodies. It's also why teen pregnancy is 'bad': they're too stupid and poor to raise kids. Youth is only associated with negative traits. Yet they still want to preserve youth as long as possible for some unknown reason.
It's okay though. The west will come around when they realize hags aren't fertile and are giving birth to all these autistic kids lately, as well as lowering the birth rate in general.
The west thinks that age = titties. It's really weird, it wasn't like this in the 80s. Some sort of boob fetishist takeover happened in the 90s that demonizes anyone who likes girls without huge boobs.
But then a lot of 18 year old anime characters are drawn in moe style to look younger, but half of it is that people forget the "Japanese are short and flat chested" stereotype when it comes to cartoons for some reason. Maybe because they think of the anime with giant tits? But basically being short, flat, and having large eyes = being a child to westerners, which is why westerners are so weird whenever they try to draw kids. They don't realize the other porportions are different too. Those that do, draw all kids with the bodies of 6 year olds.(because they like 6 year olds anyway)
Hopefully the opposite will happen and they'll get enough exposure to anime to not care.
I wish people would stop blaming Christians for everything they don't like happening.
That is actually really disappointing.
I wonder if other countries are just afraid of Japan's "soft power" strategy.
>They just accept there are weirdos out there that are harmless.
That almost makes me want to move to Sweden. Almost. At least it doesn't make me lose hope.
so what you're telling is some stupid white bitch in the UN is more concerned about what I like to jerk off to than the civil wars and starving children in Africa. These cunts can't take my only source of joy.
Fortunately, the UN influences nothing.
The Olympic commission might have some effect, though.
It would probably just be temporary closure and covering up of anything "undesirable" nearby, rather than changing national laws.
>Which girl is a true child?
>Which girl is an adult who looks like a child?
They both look the same.
One has more body fat than the other.
It's funny. She even looks like a girl I know that is around 22 years old.
I know in Japan that older women feel that being that thin is attractive, and that softness is a childish feature, but I don't think that is the opinion outside Japan.
>Whether a nation bans manga CP or not seems to depend on the rate of popularization of manga culture.
I think in the case of my country it's just that there is no big comics presence, like USA or Europe. Government and court doesn't have experience with it. Even though anime is pretty popular in Latin America in general. Lolicon works are virtually unknown, though.
>I'm glad of your good Japanese.
I'm more worried about TPP in Japan right now, and what the Diet thinks rather than what other countries think.
Although they influence it too...
I just don't want something like this to happen:
I think I recall South Korea doing something silly about lolicon just the other year or so. It was hilarious since they even added a bounty for anyone reporting someone producing lolicon. So everyone got scared shitless.
I'm pretty sure loli manga is still legal in Finland. I remember them trying to pass a law that would have banned it, but the wording was changed so that only drawings that were clearly traced from actual child pornography (rustle, I'm looking at you) became illegal.
How much of this is a moral panic? From what I've seen the Canadian cases and most others are where people wound up doing stuff like import loli or watch it at work.
I wonder when the mounties will eventually start rounding all of us up.
if a /jp/ mansion existed I would alert authorities so they can jail many pedophiles at once
You don't need a citation for this, just go out of your basement for once, go show people your loli ero-manga and ask them what they think about it. If they don't hit you in the face first, obviously.
You could show them gay sex and have the same happen. Sexual topics/fetishes in general are not very good conversation starters.
However nothing should be illegal solely on the basis that it's socially unacceptable/frowned upon.
I agree, I haven't implied otherwise, but the point is it's not socially accepted. I'd say in Japan it's even worse, anything that can show you as liking minors in any way makes you a crime suspect.
What are your thoughts about idol modelling, like underage girls in swimsuits and such? Should that be legal in Japan? I personally enjoy them quite a bit, although it's harder to argue for that than it is to argue for legality of lolicon, since it involves real children. Also i do appreciate that you call lolicon "manga CP", because there are people on 4chan that get really defensive when you say to them that a large portion of lolicon is, in fact, a form of child pornography.
I hope 2020 Olympics will not change anything in Japan regarding these issues, fingers crossed.
In Europe, rape cases have been rising as a direct result of mass immigration from Arab and African countries, and of course child rape is included in that.
But you don't see anyone here going on about how we need to protect our children from the immigrants. It's holier-than-thou bullshit at its finest.
Especially since there is no scientific agreement on whether availability of fictional CP even has any impact on child rape at all.
It should therefore be a non-issue in any proper democracy with constitutionalized free speech. In the end it's just the exact same kind of moralizing legislation and impeding of free speech that Europe and the US criticizes countries like Turkey for, making it hypocritical as well.
I'm pretty sure this is denial in its most extreme form. Human sexual selection doesn't change in a few hundred years. Men are naturally attracted to girls in "bloom"; that is why they hit puberty around that age. Natural selection involves presure and if we had thousands of generations of selective sexual pressure of only breeding with "adults", humans would hit puberty years later. People seem terrified of human nature and seem to want to think human biology is something which began less than a hundred years ago of something. Sexuality is a evolutionary process, not a dictate directed by society. Maybe in a few hundred years people will treat paedosexuals how we treat homosexuals: that is, not as second class citizens with a lack of human rights.
I agree that the taste for young girls is frowned upon on precisely this reason. Many people seem to need a strong knee-jerk reaction to avoid even thinking such things, because if they didn't do that, they fear they might not be able to control themselves.
It's pretty funny how people think that sexual drive can be changed by flip-flopping around a number (raising/lowering age of consent).
Pedophilia in the strict sense of being attracted to kids that are not yet of age where they can reproduce and understand such things, is not something that will ever accepted like homosexuality. In homosexuality you have two consenting adults. But pedophilia definitely should not be demonized as it only causes people to just lose any sense of dignity ("I'm a monster, so maybe I should just act like one") and possibly just do the deed. Those people should be helped instead. I don't know how.
>Girls with smartphones are the main producers of cp. Not joking.
True. It's always been that way though since they got ahold of cameras and cellphones with cameras and webcams. It's a problem with the definition of CP though.
Girls in bloom are not subjects of pedophilia, which is specifically an attraction to prepubescent children.
>a few hundred years people will treat paedosexuals how we treat homosexuals
They already do. The general thought is pedo = homo, and they are both shunned.
>True. It's always been that way though since they got ahold of cameras and cellphones with cameras and webcams. It's a problem with the definition of CP though.
The definition of CP is made broad with the argument that it is better to jail innocent people, than let a single person get away with harming children. It is sub-zero tolerance for a better future. (Because as we all know, even if you are innocent you are creepy, so it is no harm done)
>Pedophilia in the strict sense of being attracted to kids that are not yet of age where they can reproduce and understand such things
>In homosexuality you have two consenting adults.
Neither two of the same sex can reproduce. The idea of a kid unable to understand sexuality is subjetive maybe it depends of the kids
Both pedophilia and homosexuality are antinatural when it comes on terms of species preservation, however homosexuality is accepted because it didn't necessary harm someone as opposed to pedophilia where people thinks that a child had to be harmed for some reason.
The bad thing is that the people who actually believe this crap are the ones who support politicians to ban anything that triggers them.
Childhood sexual consent is too complex an issue for society to deal with for the foreseeable future.
"Children can't consent" is erring on the side of caution, which is probably for the best. It might cause complications of its own, but it's probably the lesser of all evils.
To remove all possible alternatives as well is reckless, though.
It leaves a state of having to simultaneously demonize anyone who considers homosexuality a mental illness and wants to change it, while also considering pedophilia, at best, purely a mental illness that must be cured. It's lead to the belief of defining them only in terms of sex, not attraction. "Pedophilia is bad because children can't consent" is irrelevant; there's no consent involved in attraction, but it's the standard argument. Homosexuality is always defended in terms of "acts between consenting adults", it's not common to address the mental aspect of it.
I'd guess its related to the ideas about how sexualisation in the media is harmful as well; it can't just be someone's thoughts, it has to somehow be a multiple person interaction to hold this house of cards together, so we introduce voodoo magic harm by representation ideas - this victim being damaged can be traced back to this imagery the perpetrator saw.
I'm not sure how many have observed this, but it is a frequent pattern that people only complain about pedo bait if the child is attractive. I.e. even those who claim to be "normal" can identify a beautiful and attractive child and an ugly child. So what difference is there then between a pedophile and a heterosexual?
Only one thing really. The heterosexual will cling to the importance of age for the simple reason that someone told them to. They are still attracted to children as proven by the fact they can tell attractive children from non-attractive.
I don't think that's logically sound.
Attractiveness and arousal are not the same thing.
Heterosexuals can judge the attractiveness of the same sex, for instance.
I don't think heterosexuals are necessarily sexually attracted to ever person they could consider attractive of the opposite sex, either.
>I'd guess its related to the ideas about how sexualisation in the media is harmful as well
Maybe, i think It depends on who "rules" moral changes, greeks used to adimire the human body and praise sexuality same goes for a lot of other ancient cultures. Now we have this society telling us that anything remotely sexual is something we need to hide and be ashamed of which is pure hypocrisy.
also leaves this ambiguity, you can say a loli is just a 500 years old demon or what appears to be a child to ones looks "adult enoug" for others.
>where people thinks that a child had to be harmed for some reason
Little kids aren't psychologically mature enough to properly make life decisions like giving your virginity to an adult. Otherwise they would leave their parents home and start making a living after they turn 5. Is that really so hard to understand?
What are you even talking about? Again, homosexuality implies two consenting adults. I don't see why this is even a discussion.
>Little kids aren't psychologically mature enough to properly make life decisions like giving your virginity to an adult
I think the damage of sexual acts is largely caused by the societal attitude towards it.
The general idea is hide sex completely from children until they reach the government mandated age of sexual education, then tell them not to do it until they reach the government mandated age of consent, then harass them for not making children.
If rape is considered to be one of the worst things possible, this probably makes the experience of rape even worse for the raped. They have been taught that what happened to them is really bad. I'm not saying rape is good, but society makes it even worse for those afflicted.
If childhood sex is automatically considered not only to be rape, but the worst possible form of rape, it makes it so.
I don't support making sex between adults and minors legal, but I oppose blanket statements that are not true and cause damage in themself, as well.
Is there an instance where a child can consent to sex with an adult? I think it's obvious that this is possible, if you actually think about it, rather than blurting out mantra. The problem is that it's so difficult to judge that it's very risky and probably best avoided. A lot of exploitation is possible. Society pretty much turns a blind eye to children engaging in sexual acts with other children. This isn't considered harmful. The point is, I don't think the sexual acts in themselves are necessarily harmful, but what else may accompany it. Again, even a well meaning adult may inadvertently cause harm in ways another child couldn't, so it's still best avoided
I remember seeing an image about a marriage in America early in the 20th century, between a grown man and a 9 year old girl. They remained married throughout life, had children, and no dysfunction was mentioned, if it existed. I've never been able to find it since, though.
>Otherwise they would leave their parents home and start making a living after they turn 5. Is that really so hard to understand?
There are children who could be self sufficient at a young age. Some children have to be due to their environment. Not ideal, but not an impossibility.
>Again, homosexuality implies two consenting adults
Homosexuality is the attraction to the same sex.
You don't have to have sex with the same sex to be homosexual.
Having sex with the same sex doesn't even make you homosexual, if you aren't actually sexually attracted to them.
You can be a homosexual and only rape.
Consent is nothing to do with it.
In all, please think harder. I know these are uncomfortable topics, but the truth is the truth. Just because you can understand it doesn't mean you have to advocate for bad things happening.
>Little kids aren't psychologically mature enough to properly make life decisions like giving your virginity to an adult. Otherwise they would leave their parents home and start making a living after they turn 5.
Except is not the same, you can enjoy a healty sexual life but maybe you could not take cae of a baby. Losing you virginity is not a life decision unless you have personal reasons to.
According to your logic, If a girl is curious enough to touch herself and enjoy it this means you should make her leave her parents home and start making a living?
>Heterosexuals can judge the attractiveness of the same sex, for instance.
I disagree. From my own experience I was never able to judge whether another guy looked good or not until I myself became slightly attracted to them. When supposedly hetero people I know are asked the same question it's always an ambiguous response. So at least from my own observation attractiveness and arousal have some kind of connection even if minimal.
Also I don't have it on hand but I do clearly recall someone posting a medical study in these kinds of threads in which large numbers of healthy males were shown pictures of various girls and respond if they found her attractive or not. The catch was obviously a lot of the girls were underage. Results were at least under confidentiality, most men are attracted to girls who are right around the area of pubescent and prepubescent by a large margin.
So I'd be more inclined to agree with this >>14299263
It's natural to be attracted to young people whether people will say so or not. Outside of potential physical limitations, the whole society/moral view is the entire reason why it's "wrong".
The majority of men would also criticize their peers for eyeing up a highschool senior then theyd turn around and go bang a 15 year old if she was attractive and claimed to be 18.
It happens every time this topic comes up. First everyone cries out how silly the people are, it isn't real, no proof it causes harm etc. Then the actual pedophiles come in and try to convince everyone how it isn't really wrong in RL, it's just society that makes it that way etc. Irritating, irrelevant, and damaging to argument made in favor of loli.
>people actively comparing pedophilia with homosexuality
Are you guys literally retarded? I wanna see someone arguing seriously about this because this is beyond imbecile. One harms and does not require consent and the other one was just a sexual preference that was not accepted.
What would you think if an adult tried to have sex with you when you were a kid? Even if it was a man?
According to the pedo's logic, homosexualism and pedophilia are on the same level so no problem with both, right? You had enough maturity to choose anyway, right?
>What would you think if an adult tried to have sex with you when you were a kid? Even if it was a man?
what does my traumas have something to do with a bitch tryin to ban loli manga?
>According to the pedo's logic, homosexualism and pedophilia are on the same level
Maybe it depends on the culture.
so no problem with both, right?
Nowdays pedophilia is wrong in most countries, I will respect those laws.
I'm no one to change other peoples laws, the ones in charge of that aren't doing their jobs, this is the point of this thread.
American here. People don't really care, I guess. Talking about or liking lolicon manga is no more taboo than liking hentai manga in general. Many people agree that lolicons are probably pedophiles, but most people are okay with fictional drawings and literature as a lesser of two evils.
>According to the pedo's logic, homosexualism and pedophilia are on the same level so no problem with both, right?
The logic is that sexuality does not matter since all cases where the other part is not giving consent is rape and abuse. It isn't like someone turning 18 means you can have sex with them without consent.
Yes, but the obvious argument is that a child is not physically/mentally capable to consent. I agree with the dude though that there are many questions about child sexuality, and that some of our grandfathers would we considered child abusers today.
Anyway it is a moot since we are discussing imagination.
In previous threads some of lolicons tried to explain how they feel about it, but I would like someone try to explain again how they are not a pedophile, or possess traits that derive from pedophilia? Is there any study about the 2D fetish?
I've read on some vn forum some time ago that if it's a vn published by a big company and not self-published there are regulations that prevent you from using certain visual elements, like elementary schoolgirl backpacks and stuff, and that one company after the release "leaked" the patch to add backpacks into their game. I wish i knew more about it, but it's pretty funny.
The thing is, it's not as separate in Japan as you'd like to think here, on 4chan. Comic LO constantly has those reminders that you can fap to lolicon and be a pedo just don't go around touching kids, because that's a serious crime. I don't think you can really argue in favor of lolicon without arguing in favor of people having pedo fantasies. But derailing the thread into theoretical debates about whether sex with children is harmful or not doesn't help, that's for sure.
For pedos the path to lolicon is
puberty>>>starting feeling attracted to children because reasons>>>find lolicon
For lolicons it's
>puberty>>>anime>>>find hentai>>>find lolicon>>>it's taboo and exciting>>>other people seem to be enjoying it, so it can't be that bad>>>i'm gonna enjoy it too
Something along those lines.
The taboo angle is interesting.
I also remember in some article the otaku said they were lolicons because they are already considered good-for-nothings, so they might just as well be lolicon. Some sort of counter-culture thing. Weird.
>read on some vn forum some time ago
If you mean for eroge, most of them, or at least the big ones do self-regulation via an organization eroge companies formed specifically for this called EOCS.
It's one of the reasons they have that "18+, Japan Sales Only" message in EOCS rated games. It probably also includes a few clauses for loli, and the patch-around might just be some "not endorsed by EOCS" thing so that they can still publish the game and give customers what they want.
Then there's circles like Shiritsu Sakuranbo Shougakkou that don't give a shit most of the time.
I hate that to the point it makes it almost unfappable. it's the same with anything involving incest. It's as bad as them calling out what they're doing in detail or doing that anatomy lesson thing before they fuck.
On a completely unrelated note, is there anything more of this slut? Been looking on the internet but found nothing other than variations of this image. That dress design is rad as fuck.
>If not for those you might as well fap to small adults.
Why not? I'm attracted to their form, not their age. If women stayed like that their entire life, it'd be great. Heck it'd be great if adult women could be proportionate and small adults too. I do like fairies more than loli. I like /ss/ too, so I'm more about size difference between partners I guess.
Even so, it's still something weird to certain lolicon and incest authors. It's never "fuck me with your shougakusei dekachinpo" or "fuck my 35 year old unmarried pussy" or anything. I don't get it at all, but I don't need to hear MAMA MAMA! ONIICHAN ONIICHAN! 6TH GRADER 6TH GRADER! the whole time. It only really works for stuff like "stupid brother weiner" which is funny in itself.
Maybe it's because I don't associate sex with taboos though. I guess I can get if it you really feel like it's wrong or something. I don't really care if related fictional characters have sex, since they're just drawings anyway and saying they're related holds about as much weight as saying a 10 year old is 200, or that a girl with wide, high set hips and no visible bulge even in a micro bikini is a boy, that people who look nothing alike are twins, or that people who look exaclty alike aren't blood related, or any other bullshit anime says. As for loli, I don't have a problem with anyone who's started puberty, though I think characters younger than like Sakura from CCS are no good. The only time calling their age would be good is if the artist has a really chibi-ish style and I can't tell if they're just exaggerated or supposed to be really young. In that sense, it fuels the imagination to imagine them as their actual size.
Also this is a tangent, but I hate piss. not just I hate piss, I hate how lolicon authors fucking worship piss and use it as the default female orgasm for lolis and the central piece of the orgasm scene instead of something that happens after. It's like huge breast authors and breast milk ejaculations. I'm completely neutral on breast milk but manga makes me think it's fucking gross.
>Why not? I'm attracted to their form, not their age. If women stayed like that their entire life, it'd be great.
That's great anon, it just means you're not the target demographic of this kind of lolicon.
>It's never "fuck me with your shougakusei dekachinpo" or "fuck my 35 year old unmarried pussy" or anything. I don't get it at all, but I don't need to hear MAMA MAMA! ONIICHAN ONIICHAN! 6TH GRADER 6TH GRADER! the whole time.
It's because you can fantasize and watch 35 year old people have sex openly, but if you want to watch an adult have sex with kids you need to resort to drawings. It's a fanservice for sexually frustrated people who don't have any other outlets.
Another pedo fanservice, little girls peeing themselves, they're embarrassed, need to clean up after them, etc. Stuff like that.
You're just not even slightly pedo, so congratulations.
There are different interpretations of what's sexy about lolis, great! Why can't you two just get along? We'll never defeat the evil femnazi scum with this kind of infighting.
>>puberty>>>anime>>>find hentai>>>find lolicon>>>it's taboo and exciting>>>other people seem to be enjoying it, so it can't be that bad>>>i'm gonna enjoy it too
I think I can relate to that
>I don't like the blood = lost virginity thing.
That actually kind of bothers me too, sometimes. But that's usually because it's either a ton of blood or they just fuck them with their bloody dick and have bloody cum. Makes it look like they're fucking them on their period or something.
Curiously, I don't dislike it in monster rape, since it's more like they're being torn apart than being virgins, though it's usually some combination of both.
>I masturbated to both from the start.
>I didn't know for years that most people considered there to be any difference.
It's kinda silly they do. People will probably admit masturbating to Sailor Moon(or Rei/Asuka), even though she's was middle schooler, but not to, say, Dekomori from chuunibyou even though she also was similarly aged middle schooler.
It's a porn game, so you can probably find images of her having sex but that's it. I've seen similar outfits but I can't name any off hand. The girl from penguindrum wears something similar though.
>Yes, but the obvious argument is that a child is not physically/mentally capable to consent.
But some of them actually are. I was one of them, even though I never knew any female pedophile to give consent to.
The assumption that people grow old and mature mentally and regret those ideas mean that I have either been mature since age 5, or I'm still a child at age 30. Regardless that breaks the theory that mentally people are ready at age 18.
It is a "world is flat" situation. I know how the world is, but I can't really convince anyone else when they want to believe their version.
>In previous threads some of lolicons tried to explain how they feel about it, but I would like someone try to explain again how they are not a pedophile, or possess traits that derive from pedophilia?
Short answer is that they are not pedophiles because the word has been hi-jacked to be deragotory. You are essentially asking "Why wouldn't a lolicon be a child rapist?"
The long answer is that everyone is an individual so it will match some people and it will not match others. It is kind of like claiming men = rapists. Sure in some cases, but not all. You will find those who like lolicon for exactly the same reason pedophiles like children. You will also find those who like lolicon because it is fantasy (so it can be a vampire, a flower, your sister, etc.)
I think it's dangerous to think fictional loli => child predator when there's nothing in any literature that says that and that's almost always where these discussions go because that's one of the only ways you can defend banning it.
Also on the concept of harm, I would have experienced a much better childhood at the age of
15if laws did not exist to prevent me from trying to find nice guys older than me. Finding a guy your age in the local area who isn't Christian is difficult.
I am surprised that you should remember such things. All I remember is finding a porn magazine in the woods and going all "eww" while having a strange feeling in my pants. I'm not sure how old I was.
I agree that pedophile does not mean child abuser any more than heterosexual means rapist (though some of the nastier "feminists" might claim the latter claim is true).
I find I'm going into very logically unsound ground if I try to explain what I meant by traits. I meant finding, for example certain visual cues sexually arousing, like a body with no secondary sexual characteristics, or very small body size (these are found in manga). But as someone who has likes flat chests and girls with short stature, both often found in Asians... I find I am quite the same.
But again, in the end it is fictional, and I believe when people say that they only have interest in 2D. The meatspace is quite disgusting after all.
Girls seem to mature faster than boys, too, and they naturally seek men who are older than them. I don't support lowering age of consent however. I claim it's because girls need to study instead of becoming housewives... but really my stance is probably out of potential for jealousy.
>I am surprised that you should remember such things.
The ironic part is that I think I remember it because it was things my mind labeled as "Not allowed".
I also do not think the traits are that unique for pedophiles. For example saved armpits and crotches are considered good looking, while most ignore the fact it does make it resemble children. Women wear mascara to make their eyes look bigger, which again is a trait found at really small children. Wrinkles are bad, while baby smooth skin is good. Overall we obsess with youth, but we deny it because we want to appear normal.
Anime art for example is nothing but a long evolution of how to draw attractive characters. Disney is another version, though theirs have those minature waists that are one third of real humans. This just means it is easier to love 2D than 3D, because they are "improvements". So it should be natural that more people like lolicon than real children.
This is an fictional CG girl.
Some day, we'll be able to make fictional CP that we can not tell it from real one.
Then , what will they say to the works?
Will it be acceptable socially?
Imagine doing this much mental gymnastics so you dont feel guilty about wanting to fuck a child.
If keeping loli around means less crime than thats fine but you people are degenerates