It's very effective, as a bribe to the royal class to prevent them from trying to take over. It's amazing how far a little prestige and a lot of money will go to keep the Arab richkids in line. Stick your princes in F-16s, they stay happy, they don't go around scheming to murder you and take your place.
the officers are bratty rich kids who like wealth and prestige and don't care all that much about actually doing their job beyond the "cool stuff" (fly jets, shoot guns, race around in MRAPs, etc.) And of course the chain of command is ripe with nepotism, and more concerned with pocketing money and playing politics against each other then with national defense.
The grunts honestly don't care about their country or it's ruler and just want a paycheck. in general, they also tend to be very lowly or uneducated, which lead to NCO's trying to do EVERYTHING remotely important, and failing because they are only one guy.
Anyone who does care about their job has a tendency to hoard knowledge instead of spreading it around over the troops, to boost their own importance. this add to the "NCO does everything" problem mentioned above.
finally, they consider cleaning and maintenance something for servants and women, meaning that gear is usually used without anyone taking proper care of it, until it brakes down and they take it to the armoury/motor pool (usually staffed by foreign experts) for repairs.
All in all, it looks impressive, it works against civil unrest, and it will fall apart once any decent army so much as looks at it (just like most arab armies, who suffer from the same problems). Fortunately, there are only three of those in the region. Unfortunately, two of those are Israel and Iran, and the third (Turkey) is not that well disposed to them either.
Different branches of all armed forces in the country compete against each other because they are headed by different brothers, cousins, sons of the large Saud family...
They all get their own budget for different gear and always try to one-up each other....
Giant clusterfuck of a military, not very well organized as a whole and relies heavily on foreign contractors for their cadre of technical officers
Arab tier troops, understanding with 1st world tier weaponry.... so bad combination if fighting against an actual military, ( not a big deal only a few of those in the area, greatest threat being Iran, but buffer zone of smaller city-states between Saudi and Iran lessens the immediate threat )
>>24370650 >>24369019 While I have a pretty decent understanding of the Iranian military, I'm not sure how they'd do in a war with the Saudis. Their most recent experience in conventional warfare was the Iran-Iraq war which did make their military adapt and learn, but that was close to 25-30 years ago. Is there any way I can get a better understanding of Iran's military capabilities outside Wikipedia and Militaryphotos?
Iran's military is respectable in terms of their geography and history....
They have a cadre of officers and a leadership hierarchy that allows continuity of command down to the lowest level unit in their land, air, and sea forces...
They have an indigenous arms industry that allows them to be self sufficient and a population of ~77 million people as opposed to ~30 million of Saudi Arabia...
The most important aspect of Iran that many people over-look is the following:
Quds Force.... this is their equivalent to something like C.I.A Special Activities Division.... They are nothing to laugh at and operate in the entire Middle East and beyond...
They have been locked in a cat-mouse game with Israeli Mossad all over countries in Eastern Europe all the way to Central Asia and down in Central Africa.... they are not underestimated by the United States, Europe, or Israel for good reason....
Manpower can be drawn from affiliated organizations that have been created by Iranian intelligence such as Hezbollah, which is a potent organization that is a serious liability to Israel in the north of the country...
Iran is more of a serious threat than any of the other previous countries that NATO has encountered in the Middle East, and as such Saudi Arabian intelligence services works very closely with both Israeli and Pakistani intelligence agencies to undermine and destabilize Iran as much as possible...
refer to "Green Revolution", Iran only country that resisted the attempts to use "democracy" bomb to destabilize nation....
>>24368738 Saudi's would surrender faster than France in WW2.
They are complete shit despite their budget and posturing, the second any problem arises that will require any military retaliation they will bribe the US with petrodollars to come and intervene while they all sit in their palaces by the pool.
>>24370750 Iran-Iraq war was pretty barbaric by modern standards with WW1 type bayonet/hand-to-hand trench fighting, scorched earth, chemical weapons and the use of child soldiers for the purposes of clearing minefields.
Iran is different now and modernizing quick while getting trained in fighting insurgencies like IS in Syria and Iraq, I don't doubt for a second they would rip the Saudi's all the way to Mecca if there was no foreign intervention to stop them.
^ a small glimpse into the role Pakistan plays towards Iran.....
Pakistani Intelligence equips and facilities the movement of Taliban and other militants into Iran, same way ISIS is being used in Syria...
Pakistan's nuclear weapons are already basically bought by Saudi Arabia, they just keep the nukes in Pakistan until they are needed, you can be assured Saudi Arabia is already a nuclear armed nation, they just keep their nukes in Pakistan on P's rostersheet so they do not draw unneeded attention to themselves
S.A.- Ruling families activities are in direct conflict with wahaabi followers they rely on for stability Lacks adequate naval forces due to reliance on America. Allows 0 criticism of the system (past, current, or future)
The second there's conflict of any kind that the Saudi's actually have to participate in shit will collapse and it will be a blood bath. BUT no one would allow Iran to gain that sort of influence over the Muslim world (especially not Sunni), everyone would lose.
It's too bad America hasn't become ally's with Iran. They're MUCH closer to a real democracy, and have a government that possesses a shred of legitimacy. Not to mention Shiaa can live with non-muzzies with minimal issues.
>>24370950 You brought up Pakistan. So, how's their military? Also India. These countries are by some thought to be a hotspot to cause ww3 or a nuclear exchange. How do they fair in terms of conventional military?
>>24372344 More to it than that. Iran is geographically a natural seat of empire. USA abhors regional hegemons, because once they consolidate their hegemony on land, the next step is building a credible navy.
>>24372374 Why would they shelter the worlds most wanted man and mass murderer for 10 years while their neighbor gets destabilized by war, inevitably spilling over into Pakistan? Even when the Taliban was in retreat and they had nothing to gain by bribing them they could have made things A LOT simpler and just turned him over. Pakistan is a shitty, corrupt and incompetant "ally".
>>some good equipment >>nearly ALL maintained by Western contractors for the Saudi government
I should know.... I was a contractor there for 18 months before I quit because the Saudi army personnel I was supposed to be working with gave fuck all about proper maintenance of their equipment or actually learning how to maintain it in a combat/austere setting.
>>24368936 Officers are all from politically connected elite families. Enlisted are treated like dog shit and there is almost no NCO corps. Relations to the royal family get promoted to high ranks quickly and put in desk jobs or guard units in prestige spots. The Air Force might be the best off of the bunch. Good enough to bomb goat herders with AKs. But would probably fold if challenged in the air with out Western support.
ISIS and Al-Queda could probably take most of the country in a month. Only Riyadh and the oil facilities would be under loyalist control.
The way they really avoid conflict with jihadists is to pay off their own population. They also export their radical young people to die in conflicts outside the country.
My contract stated that my time was to be spent 25% performing maintenance, 25% of my time instructing technicians in performing maintenance and 50% of my time instructing Saudi military NCO's and Officers in maintenance practices and documentation.
The Saudi Officers sat inside most of the day and didn't care whether they learned what correct maintenance practices looked like.
The senior NCO's sometimes showed up but when they did they didn't want to take instructions from me. Fine... I'm not the one out who is going to be in the field wondering why shits broke.
The junior guys thought I was going to do all the work for them and didn't want to get their hands dirty.
I got fed up with it when a Saudi senior NCO slapped me in the back of the head because I told him "no" about doing work outside of my contract (we are contracted for specific systems to work on and if you work on something outside of your contract and it breaks you can be held financially liable). Fuck them.
>>24373311 Arab males really are the worst. Especially in Saudi arabia were the oil welfare money flows. all male children are raised like little princes by their parents. I've been to Dubai, Qatar, and Kuwait. You'll almost never see a native male doing blue collar work. Pakis, Indian, Filipinos, western foreigners everywhere doing the work.
>>24368990 ISIS are Wahhabist Sunnis, just like the Saudi royals and most of those oil-rich emirates along the Persian Gulf. They advocate the same goal, and ISIS is actually supplied with kit from China and elsewhere by wealthy benefactors in the Gulf countries.
it's a ruse, they are building it up for the caliphate, ISIS has already begun probing into Saudi Arabia and once they declare war on them the Saudis will capitulate quickly without American support and the problem is that the civilians will support them because they already live under sharia, the Saudi military is complete shit any everyone in the middle east knows it
>>24372487 > More to it than that. Iran is geographically a natural seat of empire.
It has not been that in a long time. The Silk Road fell apart in the mid 15th century. After words sea route from western Europe to the far east became a thing. The area of Iran ended up regain a part international trade in the late 16th as a half way point: Asians sold their cargo in Iran and Europeans (mostly English for political reasons ) would buy in Iran. Then Iran became a unstable shit hole with the fall of the Safavid Empire in 1736. Iran ended up becoming a Imperial play ground next. Then the suez canal and the trans siberian railway were built. At that point the only thing left that matters for Iran is the strait of hormuz, because it controls the flow of ships into and out of the area. However all it would take to devalue it would be a pipeline across SA to the red sea and building up the ports there.
So why does SA not build that pipe line? Mostly it is because by letting Iran be dangerous more or less gives them hegemony over the gulf states.
Yeah, because the fundamentalist Wahabi/Salfist muj that OBL had hated the coke-snorting Western-loving Saudi royal family just SLIGHTLY less than they hated Saddam. Al-Q has always had "overthrow the corrupt House of Saud" on their to-do list. That's why so many Saud cousins slip them some cash, so they stay busy outside the Kingdom fighting the infidel (us) rather than coming home to remove their heads.
>>24368738 No, no. The Saudi army sucks dick. Don't get me wrong, they're really nice and chill dudes, but they don't have any sort of training whatsoever. When we were there, we tried to teach them our tactics with vehicle mounted .50 cals. Their way of getting on target was to shoot at the ground directly in front of the vehicle, and walk it to the target from their. It was fucking horrible, haha. Essentially they exist so if one of X amount of princes wants to check up on them, they can.
Turkfag here, it's the first time i've heard of Quds. I was surprised to see on wiki that they had designated Turkey as a separate sector of operations. I've never seen Iran as a threat. It's not that I don't respect their capabilities which I know are very solid, however I can't see them instigating anything. On the other hand there are the Kurds who speak Persian and it is a possibility that their activities center around this, and it's blatantly obvious that they (Kurdish guerrila's in Turkey) are being armed externally, and very well at that. Do you know anything else about those operations?
Also regarding the Saudi's, I don't know anything about the army, but I had a Saudi raised friend a while back who explained to me how extremely decadent their beurocratic system is. They basically work 2-3 hours and chill while getting paid extremely well to do pretty much nothing. If the army's the same, I doubt you could take it seriously.
>>24377873 Oh god this soo much, literally all the west has to do to destroy the middle east and make it back into its warring irrelevant pre 1900's self is to mass adopt an alternative fuel source. Not saying its easy to do that but if automobiles suddenly don't need fuel oil prices will crash hard.
This could already start to happen if oil remains at the price it is currently for a while. A lot of countries in the Middle East need oil over $120 to balance their budgets and essentially bribe their populace so they don't try and overthrow them.
I don't trust the Saudis one bit, they have killed more Westerners than Iran ever has.
Arab armies are not meant to fight, let alone win, wars. They are a tool in the hands of the ruler / ruling class, which use them solely as a display of might towards their own people. They are merely intended as a means to maintain internal stability.
>>24371968 Only because of immense political pressure from the Saudi Prince commanding, the loss of face if the Al-Saud had not been able to recapture would have been immense. The deciding factor was US air support, which allowed the Saudi N.G. unites to go back in and mop up, http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA360696
>>24380551 >>24368738 I used to teach English to officers in the Saudi National Guard. Its role is different to how one might think of the US national guards' - essentially, they're a second army, designed to put down the other army in case it gets involved in a sectarian uprising - and vice versa.
>>24370750 Iran-Iraq was fought by the Iranians with a military that was basically falling apart between being starved of spare parts for all their heavy gear and the officer purges in the wake of the revolution. And yet they fought the Iraqis to a stalemate despite Saddam coming at them with the full combined arms program and numerical superiority. The Iraqis had the tools, but no idea how to use them. The Iranians were short of everything except morale and competence and hence tended to hold odd the Iraqis despite being outnumbered and outgunned considerably.
Nowadays, the Iranisn are doing a lot better in terms of gear and there's no real indication that they have gotten any worse in terms of personnel - hell, their leadership is flat-out better given that many of those same guys barely started their officer careers during Iran-Iraq.
>>24372003 They kinda gave the entire western oil lobbies (which had the Schah in their pocket) a giant flaming finger with their revolution, at which point they pressed western governments to fuck with the new iranian government to enough of a degree to cause a lasting grudge - which the Iranians were actually willing to bury in 2001 just for Dubya to react to their olive branch by declaring them part of the Axis of Evil.
>>24381294 Iranians don't really get along with Kurds too well considering the PJAK and everything. There's no way they'd be funding the Kurds in Turkey. They see Turkey as a regional threat since Turkey at the moment is hostile to Assad's government, which is pro-Iran >>24382786 It's surprising how far Iran came during the war, by the end they were doing combined arms attacks with the IRGC and Army working in tandem. Also they're apparently making bullpup G3s
+Lots of Technology and equipment +Well funded +A number of hardcore nationalist troops +Good numbers
-Similar to the US army it has compensates lack of skill with technology, so poor training and such -Sub-par moral, as you would expect in a country with an insane monarchy -Fully funded off Oil -Massive links with ISIS and Al Qaeda -No field experience for a majority of troops -Similar to Somalia it has been much about looks rather than functionality
>>24375387 I work in alt fuel vehicle programs for the DOE. I've meet an Israeli group that is promoting electric cars. They are doing this specifically to bankrupt all the arab oil states through the drop in demand.
>>24369019 I remember my JRTOC instructor in high school (who was an adviser to the Saudis) telling us that basically in the event of an invasion, Saudi Arabia was prepared to fight for two days, because presumably that is how long they had to hold on until the Americans could come in and finish the war for them
>>24386085 Hydrogen is simply a different form of battery. Hydrogen needs to be created (takes energy, mostly oil and gas) then compressed into the cell for use (more energy). I work in the oil and gas business.
It is a happy feel good thing for green* cars
Geothermal and nuclear are the options that are possible and viable.
>>24385727 US Army is probably the best trained and most experienced in the world right now. Name me an Army that is decently sized that even compares. I know for sure it isn't Russia and China has the same problems of having a few units with modern equipment and training and 90 percent being poorly armed and trained.
Yes the US Army is made up of idiots. But they are the least idiotic Army out there when you look at the whole picture.
>>24389612 >>China has the same problems of having a few units with modern equipment and training and 90 percent being poorly armed and trained >The year is 2015 and he still thinks 90% of PLA is ill-trained and ill-equipped.
>>24389612 No big armies for sure, but arguably the British have better training, and it is constantly said that the Kiwis and Australians have better training than everyone. Israel probably has the best training/technology combo at a whole. US Army only offers field experience right now, and only in some divisions. When you get down to it, the Russians probably have the most knowledge in taking ground thanks to Georgia and Crimea. China has basically none in honesty.
>>24368738 http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars >During the Kuwait war, Iraqi forces took over the town of Khafji in northeast Saudi Arabia after the Saudis had evacuated the place. General Khalid bin Sultan, the Saudi ground forces commander, requested a letter from General Norman Schwarzkopf, stating it was the U.S. general who ordered an evacuation from the Saudi town.23 And in his account of the Khafji battle, General Bin Sultan predictably blames the Americans for the Iraqi occupation of the town.24 In reality the problem was that the light Saudi forces in the area left the battlefield.25 The Saudis were in fact outgunned and outnumbered by the Iraqi unit approaching Khafji but Saudi pride required that foreigners be blamed.
>The attack was successful. The team found and killed the Saudi general (Oudah al-Belawi) in charge of the country's nothern border zone at the outpost he was visiting (here's a pic of the state funeral for some of the men killed in the attack).
>The target was significant. General Oudah al-Belawi was in charge of the multi-billion dollar Saudi effort to secure the northern border against ISIS. Not only has Saudi Arabia sent 30,000 additional troops to guard the northern border, it's building a highly automated 600-mi security wall to protect itself (lots of robots and sensors). Here's a great graphic of the monstrosity from the Telegraph. My take: What a waste of time and effort.
I dont agree that the attack on CH was timed to divert attention. Rest of analysis mirrors what is said in this thread: SA Army will probably melt away if attacked by IS
It also makes perfect sense for ISIS to attack the Gulf states. Attacking the Shi'ite areas of Iraq directly means inviting open war with Iran. Trying to move into Turkey risks their arms pipeline and a conflict with the Turkish armed forces, which could bring NATO air power down on them and reverse the west's position on Syria. Syria is proving to be a tough nut to crack and it'll get tougher the further they push into non-Sunni areas.
Saudi Arabia? From your point of view it's the heart of the Dar al-Islam ruled by a corrupt and westernized elite. Overthrow the current rulers, declare yourselves protectors of the holy cities, suddenly the self declared caliphate gains a pretty big boost in legitimacy.
>>24385801 About the Israel electric car thing, if they succeeded in undermining the oil economies, wouldn't that just make it worse for Israel, by stirring up enormous amounts of unrest which spew out kamikaze fundamentalists?
>>24368738 >mfw founder of Saudi Arabia, Ibn Saud, was an all-around Badass who founded Saudi Arabia with just 200 men with enfields, pistols, and swords and 200 horses. >I thought they have a competent army since background. >This thread. Mang, what a disappointment.
>>24390095 >>24390167 This. Airstrike have not deterred IS at all, !effective! ground forces did. Turkey suffers from an abundance of kebabnepotism, but their ground forces would never be as easy to crack as thos of Iraq.
This >>24390363 kind of gimmickery is the exact reason why SA is so vulnerable.
Wasn't there an issue where the US couldn't use Incirlik Air Base, didn't have effective forward air control, and was only flying limited sorties? Not to say that air power is a panacea, but I thought there was still a question mark about how intense the US air campaign actually was.
>>24368738 The only actual military conflict the Saudis are in was in Yemen but the shia rebels they attacked ended up winning most of the country. I should go check to see who holds Sana. The Saudis are probably super pissed the Shia rebellion succeed after the Saudi air force bombed the shit out of them when they were holded up in their mountain enclaves back in 2008/9ish.
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