Ok /k/. Let's have a discussion on use of lethal force. We all know there are situations that are 100% justified like armed robbery, home invasions, assault with a deadly weapon. But let's discuss uses of force that arn't quote clear.
Feel free to post questions, stories, advice, ect...
Here's a questionable one I've thought about, mostly because it's a situation I've been in unarmed, and it's common in places I frequent.
>be at bar with qt3.14 and her best friend
>best friend is staying over
>you sent drinking but the girls are
>your carrying and it's legal in bars in your state
>girlfriends friend is flirting with entire bar and getting drinks paid for
>feel the call of nature
>after peeing you come out and gf finds you
>"Anon, I can't find bestfriend. Some guy walked towards the door with her."
>"pay tab baby. I'll go find her"
>run out door to see guy down the block carrying her
>run and catch up
>"HEY! What the fuck are you doing with her?!"
>"it's ok bro. She's drunk. I'm just trying to help her out."
>tell random guy that she's staying with you and your girlfriend and you have her
>he gets aggressive
>"like hell man, you don't know her. She said she wanted me to take care of her"
>guy gets confrontational and shoves you
>reaches hand into his pocket and quickly withdraws something
>you draw and shoot him dead right there
Now. With just that information was the shooting justified? You knew her, but she had been flirty. You were supposed to watch her but she's barely conscious and a stranger was taking her. Maybe he was getting her help. Maybe he drugged her. He reached for something and you shot him. Was it justified? What if the thing he pulled out was a phone? What if he knows her too?
Trial, Conviction, or Justified /k/?
i would say unless you know he withdrew a weapon then no it wasnt really justified. but on the other hand if you couldnt see because it was dark then maybe it was justified. its a grey area desu
Obedient Muslim women leave the home with their husband, their parents or their brothers.
She was a jezebelle when she stepped out of the house.
You rightly attempted killing her when she was riding on some his shoulder but accidentally shot the guy.
It's understandable, it's allowed by Mohammed and the local cleric should absolve you and may even allow you to preside over her public execution with her father.
Peace be with you
What part of London are you in anyways?
Indeed. Hence the thread.
/pol/, while the banter is appreciated I think you made a wrong turn and should probably go back the way you came. Or is this muslimbro without his trip?
He pushed me, which is a clear, albeit barely, display of aggresion. I could pull on him then. As soon as he pulled something out of his pocket I felt even more threatened. I shoot then, feeling like shit but mostly justified.
Hard mode: He is only aggressive verbally when he pulls out something real fast.
My thought is the girls not his responsibility but yours. If she's that messed up he should have called EMS. Once he left with her he could have been kidnapping her to rape or murdsr her and you felt threatened once he got aggressuve after you identified yoirsekf as a friend of hers. But, he doesn't know that. Maybe he thought the same of you and was just getting his phone to dial 911.
In this scenario she's barely conscious not just going home with him. I've actually had a similar situation happen but the guy never made it out the door. Still used the "well how do I know you know her bro, just let me take care of her".
Unless he directly threatened your life or otherwise gave you good reason to think what he was pulling out of his pocket was a weapon he intended to use against you, you wouldn't be able to argue you reasonably felt your life was directly threatened in that situation, no. The best thing to do in that situation would be to dial 911 to report a kidnapping and follow him while you stay on the phone until the police arrive. Calling 911 is always the proper thing to do because it demonstrates you sought a proper non-violent solution to the situation, and if the guy does get aggressive and force you to shoot him you can get it all recorded. In such a situation make sure you do a lot of yelling and cautioning before shooting ("Hey, get away! Back up! Let me see your hands!")
>Hard mode: He is only aggressive verbally when he pulls out something real fast.
In that case I don't think killing the guy would be justified. In scenario one he touched me in an aggressive manner. That's grounds enough to draw and tell him to fuck off. But if the guy didn't actually lay a hand on me, I don't think I would be perfectly justified in killing him. Unless I was certain his object was a weapon, gun or knife, I would be in the wrong.
>guy is actually a good samaritan
>also calls 911
>girlfriend is in the bar unable to back up that you know her
>police arrive and your now armed, following a guy from a bar and a drunk women down the block
>guy convinces officers he knows her and is taking her home
>knows her name, ect...from the flirting
>police question you and let them go
>her body is found two days later
I agree with call the police but in this situation the guy is just a block away and you have no info other than he's carrying her away and she's too drunk to stand. You do not know if he's actually doing any wrong.
You don't go to bars, concerts, raves, frat parties a lot do you Anon?
That's right, you don't know for sure, which is why you have law enforcement professionals work the situation out instead of escalating the situation and risking shooting someone to death over a misunderstanding. If there was really such a debate over the facts of the situation either the officer would wait while you went and got your girlfriend to provide convincing details or, most likely, the cops would take the girl themselves and stick her in an empty interrogation room until she sobered up. The only time the cops would believe the other guy over you would be if you acted aggressively; the fact that you're armed should never come up.
Not untrue, obviously you can never account for all of the possible variables in a hypothetical. Either way though, if the guy absolutely refuses to give the girl up then it's better to let them go than to shoot him dead on the chance that he's going to rape and murder her. Best case scenario he's a genuine good samaritan, worst case scenario it's the girl's own fault for drinking herself unconscious. I wouldn't want to get myself convicted of second degree murder and effectively ruin the rest of my life on some dumb girl's behalf, especially if you don't know for sure that she's going to be killed.
In that scenario you just stopped a rapist who was trying to kidnap a person.
You'd be ok with letting a stranger take someone you know away, while that person is incapacitated, in the hopes that A. The police respond promptly and effectively and B. The guy doesn't rape or murder her in the meantime? All while you, at a specific point and time have the ability to confront and possibly stop the guy of clarify the situation?
you could have shot him in the back the second you saw him carrying her away and its justifiably homicide in most places.
Attempted rape and kidnapping are justifications for homicide.
You catching confronting and having him go for a weapon on you is icing on the cake.
Have you even taken a CCW class?
Actually no as it's not required to get my permit in my state. Granted, I also don't take legal advice from /k/ and this tgread is purely hypothetical and speculative at this point.
>remember that the burden of proof is on you for justifiable homicide
>you admit to the homicide after all
>you have to prove it was justified
>and if the kidnapper/rapist is dead and the girl unconscious you might have a hard time
No, you're misconstruing my argument. As I said, I would follow the guy until the police arrived, so promptness doesn't matter, and obviously I would do everything possible to stop the guy and get him to let the girl go short of using force. So I was clearly responding specifically to the particular situation that the police completely fail to remedy the situation and the guy is completely incapable of having his mind changed, and literally my only remaining option was to shoot him. If that was my only option, then yes I would let him go. I wouldn't be ok with it, but sometimes bad things happen in life and there's simply nothing to be done. The preventable part of this scenario was that the girl shouln't have drank until she blacked out in a public bar. That may not mean she deserves to be raped and murdered, but she doesn't deserve for someone else to commit second degree murder and lose the prime of their life in prison on her behalf. If I drank myself into her situation I wouldn't ask that of anyone, so I wouldn't expect someone to it for someone else either.
If by confront you mean talk to him, explain the situation, and demand he let her go, there's no reason I wouldn't already have been doing it. If by confront you mean shoot, then yes, call 911 and tell them a kidnapping just occurred and give them the license plate. Hopefully the police get an address and arrive in time to stop any harm from coming to her, but if not then again, it's better than becoming a murderer for possibly no reason at all.
Well obviously you should be talking to him as soon as you catch up with him and asking him what the fuck he's doing and explaining the situation. And if he refuses to stop taking her away you should start making demands because what he's doing is fucking illegal. But regardless of how forcefully you may talk to him, you don't draw a gun unless your life is directly threatened. This is a fundamental of concealed carry and for good reason.
New scenario to keep the thread going. This one actually occurred within the past year but once again I was unarmed.
>be out with the guys and girls
>be sober and carrying
>fight breaks out on the street outside the bar/house/party your at
>fight is broken up by your friend
>your friend is now talking to 5 guys trying to get them to stand down
>you walk up
>"guys it's over, nobody wants to fight"
>lead guy gets aggressive
>"you best back up homie or I'm gonna bust a cap in yo ass"
>the man puts his hand down his pants as if he's carrying a gun
>back up and do as he says
>ask him if he has a gun
>get in defensive stance with hand on weapon and tell him to back up and show you his hands
>draw and shoot
>draw and hope he puts his hands up
>it's ok bro, she's drunk, just trying to help her out
"That's my girlfriend's sister, she's inside paying the tab right now. Why don't I dial 911 and get some help, meanwhile we'll both wait here so we can keep both keep an eye on her and of things get serious I'll help you carry her to a hospital. My gf should be out any minute, she can back me up on this."
>like hell man, you don't know her
Attempt to ward off shove and step into a more ready stance, hand kind of conveniently close to weapon. "Look, I understand that I probably looks as suspicious to you as it does you do to me. Let's just wait for 911, okay? I don't want no trabble."
>he insists on making a move
Bad end...for him.
No, because besides the fact that the guy acted aggressively and reached into his pants you don't have any particularly good reason to feel that your life is directly threatened.
Similarly, in >>27788639, although you have a better case that the guy did make a threat against your life, it was only a threat in response to your speaking to him. The correct response is to back down and make it clear that you aren't a threat to him and don't want any trouble. Then when you're clear from the situation you can call the cops on him if you want. Again, unless you reasonably believe the guy is actually about to kill you, you aren't justified in drawing on him. If he's clearly just threatening you to get you to stop talking to him, you can reasonably avoid violence by acting passively and backing down from the conflict.
>describing exactly what I did
Good to know I didnt fuck that one up but isn't a verbal threat+physical threat of force (hand on possible gun while making threat) a reasonable cause to fear for ones life?
Dead men can't testify, /k/omrade. There's a reason most CCW instructors (if not all) will tell you absolutely not to draw unless you're going to shoot for sure. Part of that has to do with brandishing laws. The other has to do with having 100% conviction and follow through with what happens next. I can't speak for every situation, but you must know for sure what you're going to do when you do it.
Are you in a state with duty to retreat? Moral implications aside, if someone is threatening your life and taking that aggressive stance (read: is a dindu) I would minimally keep my draw hand very fucking close.
In this scenario you already backed down and made it clear you weren't looking for a fight. It is from there that he threatens your life verbally; if his hand moved furtively and it reasonably looked like he even *might* be going for a weapon, I would probably have drawn.
As much as I hate taking a passive approach to things, I have to agree that you're describing the ideal way to handle it. Lethal force is an absolute last resort no matter what. If the situation can be defused without violence, then that is the route that must be taken. We as lawful carriers can't just be out in the streets drawing on dindus just because they might be bluffing, you know?
Heres what should go down.
>"pay tab baby. I'll go find her"
>run out door to see guy down the block carrying her
>realize she was a bad influence on your gf
>walk back inside and tell your gf you can find her
>girl is found later dead
>a whore is dead
>save yourself the court and or jail time
Honestly why even get involved? Or just call the cops. No point in risking your freedom for some dumb drunk skank desu senpai.
OK so this situation actually happened to my mom when I was little
>Driving down busy freeway
>Suddenly, dude cuts you off going way slower than you are
>Swerve into other lane to avoid accident
>Dude behind you gets pissed and starts tailgating you and displaying threatening gestures
>When he gets a chance, he pulls up beside you and he has a gun hanging out of his car
>You can't move because you're boxed in by traffic
What do? In her situation she didn't have a gun and this was before cell phones were a big thing, but to insert yourself into the situation, you have whatever you usually carry on you
Lets say you shot him, but he isnt dead and recovers to bring legal action:
>girl is friend of you and your girlfriend
>she is black out drunk, so it comes down to your words vs that guys words.
>even if through witness accounts point to the girl agreeing to goong with the guy, you and your gf do not know this and not practical to ask everyone in the bar at the time.
>in that setting, its isolated to friends looking out for another friend thats incapacitated abd a stranger taking her somewhere with claim that the girl said so
>at this point, any defense lawyer would bring up why the man acts with such resistence and aggression
>everyone on the jury knows its because he wants to fuck
>the case is aleady in YOUR court since it comes down to friends checking on wellbeing of another impaired friend vs. someone who wants to get his dick wet.
>add to this the heated argument, possible shove, and whatever is said exactly leading up to him grabbing for something.
>what was he grabbing for? A phone to call police? Thats literally the only thing he couldve grabbed for unless we thread into him actually grabbing for a weapon.
>the big sticking point is the mans resistence.
>i guess he can argue that he doesnt know YOU were who you claimed to be and he was trying to protect her in from dome stranger who came out of nowhere.
This scanerio will come down to small details that competent attorneys should able to sort through.
Its a bit too simple a situation to really say but:
In short, get a good lawyer.
carry guy here, have been in exact same situation, here's how I handled it.
>"what are you doing with my friend"
>random guy claims he's "helping her out"
>okay, well she's here with me, I got this
>guy gets aggressive
>leans her against a car and pushes me
>the second he pushes me, I've got legal and moral authority to rip him a new one
>beat the shit out of random guy
>tell them exactly what happened
>drunk friend too drunk to corroborate story
>my word against his
>spend night in jail
>next day, drunk friend corroborates story
>police figure out the guy was indeed a stranger
>he's also got a sexual assault on record
>he gets charged for assaulting me
>I'm let go
>guy gets 6 months and 2 years probation
>burden of proof is on you for justifiable homicide
what? no it isn't.
burden of proof for a justified homicide is the circumstances under which it occurs. in nearly all states, a forcible felony, like kidnapping or carjacking, where you witness the crime take place is an affirmative defense.
guy who got shot while carrying an unconscious girl down the block where you and your girlfriend had distinct responsibility for (she was staying with you and had informed others to that effect) is a justified shoot when a reasonable person would interpret it as kidnapping.
you grow a set of balls and knock him the fuck out.
the gun is your LAST resort. if your too weak to handle normal situations you need to start doing some push-ups and take a boxing class. if you're too damn lazy for that, just move.
first off, burden of prove is not the "circumstance", it is the burden for one party to prove their case.
BoP changes, state by state. For instance, here in Ky the BoP is on the state to prove my homicide WASN'T justified. I don't have to prove shit.
But in other states, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove you DIDN'T do anything wrong.
in other states, it's the state's burden to prove you DIDN'T do anything wrong after already charging you.
it all depends on where you are.
>killing a man in cold blood to defend some slut from her own poor decision to get blackout wasted in public
>here in Ky the BoP is on the state to prove my homicide WASN'T justified.
I'm no lawyer but that goes against everything I know about justifiable homicide. Self defense is an affirmative defense, meaning you're admitting you killed someone but you are making the case that you did it for a good reason. If the state proves that you killed someone and you fail to assert an affirmative defense then they have you on homicide. There's legally no such thing as proving a negative, so I don't see how a prosecutor could legally prove that you DIDN'T act in self defense.
Yeah, exactly. In order to convict someone of murder they have to prove you murdered someone.They don't have to rebut an affirmative defense on your behalf before you've even made it. If that was the case there would be almost no homicide convictions because how exactly do they prove that Jamal didn't kill Tyrone because he felt his life was in danger? If that was how it worked no defendant would ever have to assert an affirmative defense, they would just sit on their ass and laugh as the state fails to prove a negative.