Why isn't 5.7 a more popular handgun cartridge?
It opens up the opportunity for ultracapacity centerfire pistols.
Everyone loves the concept behind the PMR30, so why not make an affordable pistol chambered in 5.7 with 30+ rds that isn't over-expensive polyshit like the Five-seveN?
It seems to me that a light loaded 5.7 would even be superior in a mousegun vs. .380 or 9mm, giving you 10-12rds in a pocket pistol with centerfire reliability.
The only real complaint I ever hear is cost, but that would drop like a rock if anyone fucking bothered to make guns chambered in it.
5.7mm is more or less dead. It won't be introduced as NATO standard because of the Kraut and the 4.6mm. Then, 5.7mm was designed to pierce a certain type of armor, which is completely obsolete by now. Finally, civilians are only allowed to use certain types of 5.7mm rounds, which limit it's effectiveness compared to 9mm, .40 and .45 guns.
Because since there is a .034mm difference in case diameter, 5.7 gets pretty much the same capacity capabilities as 9mm.
And since its like a 34 grain projectile, it gets shit ballistics or ever penetrates.
I don't think reloaders really factor into economies of scale or utility calculations for ammo manufacture. Reloading is an exceptionally niche hobby per capita of gun owners.
>It won't be introduced as NATO standard
Many popular handgun rounds aren't a NATO standard.
>5.7mm was designed to pierce a certain type of armor
The desirability in a handgun isn't armor piercing, it's capacity vs. performance efficiency.
>civilians are only allowed to use certain types of 5.7mm rounds
Only because FN, which currently has a defacto monopoly on 5.7 production, doesn't sell them to civvies, not because civvies can't legally own them, and again, civvies don't need AP handgun rounds anyway, that's not the appeal of 5.7, it's capacity vs. performance efficiency.
>Base diameter 9.93 mm
>Base diameter 7.9 mm
> there is a .034mm difference in case diameter, 5.7 gets pretty much the same capacity capabilities as 9mm.
You dumb nigger.
Again, reloading isn't really a factor in potential commercial success. No one designing a fucking mass produced handgun in a particular caliber goes "We need to make sure we have the reloader market or this pistol will fail commercially!"
No one fucking sane reloads .22LR, it's the most prolific caliber in history.
Reloadability isn't an argument for potential commercial success in a consumer handgun. It just isn't.
Is .22WMR a gimmick? Seems pretty fucking popular to me.
The appeal of the 5.7 is centerfire reliability in a rimless cartridge that can provide the highest capacity vs. performance efficiency of any handgun cartridge on the market.
>reloading isn't really a factor in potential commercial success
I never said it was I was responding to the anon who said it was possible to reload but I said it was a bother to do so. Also it obviously has a factor in it because nothing in 5.7 is really moving in many numbers. Why are you shilling so hard for it? I like the idea and think it's a cool idea, especially with the P90 but it's not really much of a sucess.
Manufactures would have to make new frames since the ammo won't fit in 9mm/.45 pistol frames. MPA did it but their firearms a lot easier to make than others. For other companies it's not worth the cost and risk.
Yeah, I'm just wondering why no gun manufacturers have put out any pistols chambered for it. My only point to you was that reloaders don't factor into pistol manufacturing profits.
And I'm not shilling for 5.7 per se, it's already out there and has proven performance.
I'm shilling for the idea that gun makers need to make some fucking guns for it because the idea of an affordable 30 rd handgun that is well made and reliable is extremely attractive.
>the .22WMR was designed exclusively for the Kel-Tec PMR30
Wow, look, you said something stupid.
AP pistol ammunition is literally illegal per the BATFE.
>civvies dont need
That's the ONLY THING you're comparing the fucking 5.7 to dipshit. The 22mag is RIFLE CARTRIDGE. It wasn't designed for pistols in the first place, so your comparison is meaningless.
The only attraction to 5.7 is the AP ability, which is a gimmick itself for civilian shooters. Having 20 rounds in a full size handgun isn't that impressive when I can do that with a 9mm gun too.
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
There is nothing here whatsoever that makes 5.7mm illegal, even rounds that can defeat soft armor. A lead cored JHP in 5.7 can still defeat IIIA, but not be illegal. You're a fucking idiot.
5.7mm is a spec you fucking imbecile. Literally anyone can manufacture and sell it. It's not owned by anyone.
Jesus christ /k/ you're fucking stupid as shit tonight.
Only because FN makes the cases thin. Another manufacturer could make slightly thicker cases and it would be fine to reload. The only real complaint I've heard from reloaders of 5.7 is split cases and being exceptionally sensitive to accidental over pressure.
No its because the cases are coated with a polymer that is required for proper operation of the firearm. That polymer is easily damaged or removed in the reloading process resulting stuck cases.
It's also super easy to KB one, that cartridge is super specific about the pressures it likes. Brads thickness has nothing to do with it. It's not a cartridge to play around with on the bench if you like your fingers.
>required for proper operation of the firearm
OF THE FUCKING P90! There is NOTHING intrinsic to the 5.7 cartridge that REQUIRES it have a polymer coating for operation in any other weapon, including the fucking Five-SeveN.
For fuck's sake kids....jesus.
Yes that's what I fucking meant, it's not a gimmick.
.22WMR serves a purpose, that is, higher performance out of the .22cal.
5.7 is much the same. You get a vastly increased performance in a comparable form factor with center-fire reliability.
You're just contradicting yourself now, you give why .22WMR is not a gimmick then claim 5.7 is much the same (compared to WHAT?), with only "reliability" given as the be all end all of the matter.
By this point you may as well get a 5.56 rifle and be done with it in terms of varminting.
I can't even tell if this is bait or you really are a fucking retard.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you really are just this fucking stupid.
There is nothing gimmicky about wanting a high capacity pistol.
There is nothing gimmicky about wanting your ammo to have good performance.
Therefore, there is nothing gimmicky about the PMR30, or a hypothetical 5.7 pistol that isn't the overpriced Five-seveN.
.22WMR isn't a gimmick round, and 5.7 isn;t a gimmick round. They have clear advantages for what they were designed for.
You should be ashamed with yourself.
You are the one who is critically retarded.
20 rounds of crappy high velocity .22
17 rounds of 124gr +P gold dot
>MUH ULTRA CAPACITY
Now I know the incredible effort of reloading at the range must drive you to heart palpitations but at the end of the day 5.7 is overpriced gimmick rubbish designed to entrap weak minded children with delusions of operator grandeur.
>The 5.7×28mm cartridge was designed in response to NATO requests for a replacement for the 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. According to the NATO requirement, the new cartridge was to have greater range, accuracy, and terminal performance than the 9×19mm cartridge. Additionally, it was to be capable of penetrating body armor.
>Additionally, it was to be capable of penetrating body armor.
Uh, you dumb fucking nigger retard. Just because the Five-seveN comes factory with a 20rd magazine doesn't mean that's the highest capacity in fullsized pistol.
A 30 rd double stack mag in a full height pistol is perfectly possible.
As for performance, NATO said that 5.7 met ALL of it's performance goals for replacing 9x19mm as it's standard handgun/PDW caliber, but Germany blocked it.
So, who're we going to trust here on the effectiveness of 5.7 vs. 9mm? NATO, or some fucking retarded faggot moron on an anime imageboard?
Literally not a single fucking poster in this entire fucking thread has said a single valid thing about 5.7mm whatsoever. None. Not a single one of you.
/k/ I am disappoint.
the entire appeal of the 5.7 round was to offer an armor piercing package in a high capacity design. They made two different firearms to demo the round: the P90 which is the gun that 5.7 was made for, and the fiveseven which is a concealable firearm that could still pierce body armor. The capacity benefit is an inherent feature of the 5.7, but the purpose of the handgun is to defeat soft armor when other pistols could not.
That's because there isn't a single valid thing to be said about 5.7mm.
No dumbass, the 5.7 was a submission from a NATO request for a REPLACEMENT for the 9mm. And it passed the test in every metric. NATO reccomended it become the new standard cartridge.
You're a dumbass.
Tell that to NATO who said it should have replaced the 9mm.
It's not required for the operation of the Five-seveN pistol, merely recommended. It's only required for the P90 because of the magazine.
There's literally not a single fucking thing unique to the cartridge itself that requires is have a polymer coating.
You're a dumbass.
>5.7 fags BTFO by .22WMR
Exactly. I'd probably buy one some day if they were in the $400-500 range, just because it's a pistol that shoots an incredibly fast round, but I'm not about to shell out $1000+ for one.
>but the purpose of the handgun is to defeat soft armor when other pistols could not.
Pistols in the US could not. Because based ATF. You can play around legal loopholes like elite ammunition did, but you would be eventually raided and fucked in the ass. Not the best business model.
>What is .357sig
>What is .327 Federal Magnum
>What is .41 Action Express
>What is .45 GAP
>What are any number of other expensive special snowflake cartridges that no one really wants but manufacturers take risks on anyway
Everyone of those carts has more models per cartridge available to civilians and FAR, FAR FEWER weapons per cartridge in actual service.
You're not making an argument, you're being an idiot.
The law of what AP ammo is legally was already posted.
You can own and shoot AP handgun rounds as long as they aren't constructed how the law is worded, otherwise they would have just outlawed "any bullet capable of penetrating any type of body armor ever"
They won their lawsuit against the ATF.
I did a little more reading at: http://nucnews.net/2000/du/98du/981204du.laws.htm
If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):
ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
Above is quoted from 18 USC sec. 921(a)(17), what is AP ammo, by federal law.
>The law of what AP ammo is legally was already posted.
ATF is the law. Did you think they will not come with different wording if the some bullet will become a widespread real thing?
>otherwise they would have just outlawed "any bullet capable of penetrating any type of body armor ever"
Only public blowback stops them from doing it.
You mean like in the case of elite ammunition, who were raided illegally and beat the ATF in court?
The ATF is corrupt, absolutely.
They aren't gods though.
You CAN own and shoot AP ammo.
Really? Because all I see is AP ammo becoming more common. It's easier than ever to build a pistol carbine that fires .223 or 6.5 or .300BLK, all AP.
5.7 copper jacketed lead core is AP, and it's not illegal. You can literally buy it off the shelf right now.
What's more likely is that the AP ban is just obsoleted and abolished since it doesn't even make any sense, like every other piece of gun legislation since the NFA.
Goddamn it, shit like this really pisses me off.
>Oh sure citizen, you can have (widget) as much as you like! It's completely legal!
>It's just illegal to produce it domestically...
>And illegal to import from elsewhere!
>Enjoy your rights citizen!
Show me where I can find current-production .41AE.
>tfw I'm one of the few sods who bought a TZ-75 in .41AE back in the day and now I can't find ammo unless it's sold by the round for $5 each as a novelty item
Exactly, that's the fucking point!
Gun makers take risks all the fucking time on snowflake cartridges. There are more models chambered in .41 AE than there are models chambered in 5.7, while 5.7 is one of the more prominent calibers for LEOs around the world.
Do you fucking people understand yet? It makes no sense that gun makers aren't releasing models chambered in 5.7 when there is obviously a demand for high capacity handguns like the PMR30 that sell out generally as fast as they can be made, for hundreds of dollars over MSRP in many cases.
Jesus christ, this fucking board....
I don't even see how this law is enforcible.
>Make AP ammo at home
>no one ever finds out
>Make AP ammo at home
>soccer mom cunt neighbor calls the cops saying that you're a terrorist making weapons
>ATF gets involved, finds your AP ammo
>Tell them you bought it
>Don't remember where
>Didn't keep the receipt
>Can't prove criminal intent to manufacture AP rounds
>Can't prove you made the ammo yourself
How could they ever, ever, ever prosecute anyone under this stupid shit law?
Are you retarded? When was the last time the ATF didn't make things worse? AP is defined by materials used, the rifle caliber pistols are a grey area that they let slip by because of incompetence and now they are trying to mess with it when they think no one is looking. Pure copper bullets are challenged all the time.
Where is there demand for it in 5.4? I have literally never seen anyone express interest in the gun besides in .22 magnum because why on earth would anyone want an over priced gun AND overpriced ammo?
If you like the round it's fine but you are deluding yourself if you think there is ANY demand for such a niche caliber that would warrant making a new pistol.
No anon, you are the retard.
The ATF doesn't make laws. The ATF doesn't even determine how to interpret laws in the court of law, Judges do. The ATF can fuck up and say anything is illegal, and they can even arrest you for it. Doesn't mean you've actually broken any law at all, and you'll probably make some phat bank after they fuck up like the idiots they are and falsely imprison you.
ATF conducts investigations and performs arrests. They fuck up a lot. End of story.
You're such a fucking ignorant boot licking faggot that you actually fear the ATF.
They're just federal agents doing a piss poor job at staying relevant or preventing violent crimes. In all likelyhood I could see the ATF being defunded in 10 years rather than bolstered.
And again, THEY DON'T WRITE THE LAWS YOU FUCKING MORON.
I never once said, in any way at all, that there was a demand for the PMR30 chambered in 5.7, not a single time.
I said there is OBVIOUSLY a demand for a high capacity, high powered handgun LIKE the PMR30.
The 5.7 is a superior cartridge versus the .22mag that accomplishes this demand.
Again, the only bitching is cost and that fucking goes down with economies of scale.
Is literally everyone here 12 years old?
> this cartridge should be commercially widespread and successful
> is given multiple reasons why people don't like it and will not use it
> THOSE AREN'T REAL REASONS
Supply and demand nigger. It's fucking expensive and made by retards who won't diversify.
Cartridge that was a pistol round out of the gate. 10mm, for example, came into being post 921(a)(17). AP 10mm, awesome as that would be, would be a no-go. Also- 9x18, 5.45x18, or any other pistol round introduced to the US post AP ban
lolno. Its a loud noisemaker good at being better than a .22lr, with the added perk of fitting 30 rounds in a flush fit mag. It flies in the face of boringly practical, and thus people want it for its novelty.
OT, but love how that list is:
AK features pass
AK is best gun for AK
>Cartridge that was a pistol round out of the gate.
You can buy Tokarev everywhere. Tokarev is AP. It doesn't matter when it was made, that's not an argument.
> Its a loud noisemaker good at being better than a .22lr
And according to NATO outperforming 9x19 in every meaningful metric.
>How could they ever, ever, ever prosecute anyone under this stupid shit law?
They kick down your door while you're making it or vigorously interrogate you until you confess. Not defending the law, but those are the two ways that would happen.
>The ATF doesn't make laws
No, they just arbitrarily ban things without any oversight and only stop if there's a big enough stink that they may get embarrassed in court.
Fuck you and fuck your retarded meme cartridge.
Literally no one in this thread is as autistic as you in their support and more actively think the round is pointless for the purposes it was intended for because it CANNOT be legally made and therefore isn't sold to civilians and FN has a long history of licking the stinky taint of the ATF so they will not sell it anyway.
Do you want to know why the 5.4 will never take off? It's redundant fr all purposes, it's not even related to it's unreloadability, .22 magnum does fine and it's a fucking rimfire, it's got way more problems than 5.4 but here's the thing .22 is already here and so is .17 hmr to an extent there is no civilian that wants the thing, it's utilized by bodyguards who FN determines fit to purchase AP. FN is making FN unsuccessful in the civilian marketand it doesn't matter because they are already making their money.
>Tokarev is AP
Not legally. Its all lead cored, with rare exception (and those exceptions are, in fact, banned). So yes, it is a perfectly valid argument.
NATO never tested .22WMR. Most MWR is loaded with slower powders meant for rifles, with hornady making an exception or two. Check the velocities, and compare them to .22lr from the same barrel. Slightly better, but every .22 is anemic, and pretty much everything out of a pistol length barrel sucks. Put the two together.
> the round is pointless for the purposes it was intended for
The round was intended to have superior performance to the 9x19. NATO itself says the 5.7 should have completely replaced 9mm.
> it CANNOT be legally made
Yes, it can you fucking idiot. Even the shitty ammo FN sells off the shelves to civvies RIGHT NOW is AP, LITERALLY AP OFF THE SELF 5.7 RIGHT NOW.
5.7mm 54gr leadcore JHP is AP and it's completely legal to manufacture and sell by anyone.
You are a fucking moron.
>It's redundant fr all purposes
Except it's a centerfire cartridge outperforms 9x19 in an 18% smaller case. Yeah, real redundant you fucking retard.
>Not legally. Its all lead cored, with rare exception (and those exceptions are, in fact, banned).
Exactly, again, you can buy off the shelf 5.7mm that is ACTUALLY AP but not legally AP, meaning it can be bought, sold, owned, shot.
>NATO never tested .22WMR
I was referring to 5.7x28 you fucking imbecile.
This thread is a slaughter. I've never seen as many anti-5.7 fags blown the fuck out as ever before.
You seem to be lost. I was answering the question about how newly made AP might be outed as being new production vs old stock.
>I was referring to 5.7x28 you fucking imbecile.
You're the one with reading comprehension issues but I'm the imbecile? My discussion regarding pistols shooting tiny things never wandered from .22WMR pistols being a fucking novelty and the main reason the PMR-30 didn't immediately flop, because it sure as hell isn't practical.
I'm seeing insecure 5.7 fags trying to trump up a round, anti-5.7 fags trying to explain the legal definition of AP, and lots of people who on each side who don't know what the fuck they're saying or what's going on.
1. 5.7x28 outperforms 9x19 according to NATO, and should have completely replaced all 9mm in service with NATO forces if it weren't for Kekermany being assmad fucking faggots that HK didn't win with 4.6x30mm and blocking the adoption of 5.7mm.
2. 5.7mm ammo is not illegal. Period. The only ammo that is ACTUALLY illegal is the hardened penetrator version that's LE only. That doesn't mean you can't buy 5.7 AP ammo, since ALL JHP 5.7 DEFEATS SOFT ARMOR.
3. There is obviously a high demand for an affordable handgun that carries more than 20 rounds, a la the PMR30. The 5.7x28 is a superior round verses the .22mag for this type of pistol.
That's all. It's easy to understand.
There are literally NO downsides to the adoption of 5.7 for civilian use other than cost, and the only reason it's so expensive is because gun makers aren't making guns chambered in it, even though there's OBVIOUSLY a demand for a hicap handgun.
US law defines AP pistol ammo as having a primary composition of any of 7 specific metals. Not listed? Not AP. That's how the law works.
No one except insecure 5.7 faggots have said anything about penetration in reality.
Man, Ivan's rant about 5.7 really is true.
Because 5.45 in pistol = AP. We're currently fighting the ATF's bullshit claim, no need to make them right.
It was at point blank and looking at the wounds some were shot in places where it definitely could have made them bleed out pretty fast if it was anything else. Several were shot in the back and stomach and survived, though there were medical personnel pretty much right there so that probably was also a big factor in the survivability.
Compared to fucking what? It's mostly
That's 5 so being generous and ignoring podunk cops who probably still carry .38 and .357 wheelguns, your dumb ass caliber is ranked 6th in the world and that's probably only because of range toy and mall ninja potential.
So I've read the whole thread and the only argument I see against 5.7 that has any value whatsoever is
>I-I-IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE SO LET'S NOT EVER MAKE ANYMORE GUNS THAT SHOOT IT BECAUSE THEN IT WOULD BE LESS EXPENSIVE!
You niggers are stupid.
>Hi I don't know why 22mag exists and has existed for the better part of 100 years
>FUK U 5.7 ISN'T SHIT
22mag is a easily controllable, accurate rimfire rifle round for small game hunting up to boar (legally) up to ~150 yards.The PMR30 is both an ugly PoS that can barely function with 20 rounds of it's 30 round mag loaded (dem dented cases) and out of a ~5" barrel all the punch of the 22mag is wasted due to every commercial loading (IE all loadings) being slow burn rifle powder designed around a 16"-24" barrel
5.7 is a solution searching for a problem and will never be widely adopted. Once FN stops making firearms chambered in it it's going to descend to the depths of wildcat round and FN fanbois will cry tears of impotent rage at the fact that unlike pretty much every round since the replaceable primer 5.7 isn't reloadable.
>inb4 hurr 5.7
it can't penetrate a IIIa vest with commercials loadings
>inb4 youtube videos of expired/ non NIJ registered scrap kevlar panels getting penetrated by solid brass $10 a round 5.7]
it doesn't fucking expand, so you really might as well shoot them with 22magnum; both will ice pick the same hole out of a guys back and through a few a few sheets of drywall
Have you never read the SWAT stories of having to literally full auto spray whole mags into targets with the P90 to incapacitate them?
or the debacle of the brady campaign and thier PSA about "da evil cop killing handgun bouletz!" where they found out the fn5.7 couldn't penetrate a IIIA vest at point blank range and they had to track down an expired IIA vest to get their shot?
>Flamewar, the thread
I actually like 5.7 anyway, but is anyone really surprised that NATO didn't go with a logical choice? Even if it was purely Germany's fault, what kind of fucked up system lets one country piss all over progress? (inb4 .280 brit)
Fuck the US military's handgun trials were calling for more "stoppin powah" so good calibers being rejected doesn't surprise me one bit. Trusting governments to make rational decisions about this type of shit will always leave you dissapointed.
I do acknowledge that 5.7 isn't the best caliber ever made, I just like fast rounds. .22TCM seems like a better option to me anyway.
>samefagging this fucking hard
I like the 5.7, I wish FN would stop being such cowards and actually push for their caliber to the potential it could be but come fucking on. You aren't even getting paid by them and you are making a fool of yourself.
The P90 is doing well amoungst bodyguard circles so I don't think it's going out of production anytime soon, it fills a niche of being reliable, compact, very high capacity, very controllable and be able to defeat body armor PROVIDED the AP rounds are being used, which private security companies can easily get.
>build a commercial pistol chambered in a rifle round
>that rifle round is now legally a pistol round
>no more 5.45x39 surplus for you ;^)
>bu....this special snowflake $10 a round 5.7 is AP ;_;
except it isn't when you don't fudge the tests.
>that sell out generally as fast as they can be made
Keltec making 50 a year when new 3 years ago and 25 of them going to florida gunshops=/=HURR DEY SELL OUT INSTANTLY!
if you really want you can find one for $500. there are several collecting dust at two different gun shops down by me.
but... get this.... they're shit and have terrible product reviews and can't shoot a fully loaded mag without jamming up on a dented/bent/broken casing. Also it's a fucking gimmick.
Currently no commercially-available load does decently from both a short (<5") barrel while meeting FBI penetration standards (12"). The red or blue-tipped Vmax bullet does a ton of tissue damage, but fails to penetrate past 8" most of the time even in bare gel, and the various FMJ loads don't tumble meaning they don't do shit in the way of damage but do penetrate. There are currently like 2 widely-available BSP/JHP's that aren't varmint bullets that can readily be loaded, and there are currently zero factory offerings with these bullets.
The muzzle flash from a short (5") barrel is pretty big too, despite FN loads using a flash-suppressed powder. It was designed around a 10" barrel.
>Keltec making 50 a year when new 3 years ago and 25 of them going to florida gunshops=/=HURR DEY SELL OUT INSTANTLY
In one of nutnfancy's videos he mentioned that Kel-Tec manufactured about 10-15,000 of them a year. That's not insignificant for such a "niche pistol."
>but... get this.... they're shit and have terrible product reviews and can't shoot a fully loaded mag without jamming up on a dented/bent/broken casing.
Which is exactly why there's a market for something like the PMR30 chambered in a round that isn't a fucking rimfire you fucking moron!
The AP ban was fearmongering over "cop killer" bullets.
"Cop killer" bullets are increasingly more widely available in an easily concealable package that fits under a coat or in a backpack or whatever.
The laws are shit.
AP laws are meaningless, just like suppressor laws that don't keep you from putting a fucking oil filter on your gun if you wanted to "assassinate" someone like the NFA was said to protect against.
>the p90 is doing well in my unsubstantiable l33t oper8or fantasies
>private security companies can just violate US law senpai
No "private security companies" cannot buy AP ammo or select fire arms like in your fucking vidya. Real life Isn't hitman absolution and the 5.7 is being slowly going to a farm upstate.
Pretty much every US police force that adopted the P90 has swapped to ARs. why use a PCC round that icepicks through your methhead and needs to be used as a bullethose when a SBR'd Assault Rifle will actually kill him.
>too autistic to understand hyperbole
>country of 320million
>you can't find one at a price you'd pay
>no one wants one after the initial novelty wore off with the end user product reviews of it being shit.
>hurr but thats why companies need to make a new frame for a round only manufactured by two companies with shit loadings available built to a standard capable of taking 5.7s retarded case pressure!
there is literally a 30% difference in average maximum case pressure between 9mm and 5.7. that requires engineering no one wants to spend money on or overbuilding which makes for an ugly, unergonomic, unmarketable product no on wants to buy. FN went the first route and thats why a few extra grains of powder in a reload and your $1500 meme pistol turns into a hand grenade.
>hi I don't understand why the NFA exists
>thinking these laws were meant to do anything but disarm anyone who didn't have 200 dollarydoos in 1930's money from owning their $12 machinegun legally.
>not knowing about death of a thousand cuts
wow, you're literally the first person to notice that frivolous restriction doesn't stop crime! Are you a wizard or something?
If they would have put ballistics gel behind it then it would have penetrated. The bullet was impacting against the inflexible barrier behind the vest and losing all it's energy to the incompressible water.
>The AP ban was fearmongering over "cop killer" bullets.
>The laws are shit.
Yes and no. It is true that .223 guns are widely available and trump any pistol. But from the another side criminals buy half of the guns and all ammo in the storeы. Readily available AP pistol ammo would somewhat make police life worse.
Of course all these infringements are unconstitutional but this is another matter.
Wow I never noticed that. you are literally the first person to figure out that gun regulations exist only to disarm the populace. Are you a time traveler or something? That sort of hot erudite opinion can't be of this earth... ayy lmao?
>what are economies of scale
>what is cart before the horse
>what is the chicken and the egg problem
>no guns to shoot the round
>round is expensive
>manufactures make affordable guns to shoot the round
>round is no longer expensive
This isn't fucking difficult!
So what do you suggest? Shell out double the money for less than double the product, praying that some day it'll be cheap?
Fuck that. Someone else can drop their pants and take it in the wallet.
FN being dicks about who could make the ammo.
No government adopted the FiveseveN pistol and very limited adoption of the P90.
AP pistol ammo ban hurt sales in America. Where we can only get the weakshit ammo.
> Readily available AP pistol ammo
You mean like Tokarev?
Last I checked it was pretty fucking available, and cheap.
You poorfags are hilarious.
Millions and millions of people spend absurd amounts on obscure firearms shit every fucking day.
People were paying up to SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS for the fucking PMR30 for YEARS.
Blow it right the fuck out of your ass.
FN doesn't control the manufacture of the ammo. It's an open specification, literally anyone can make it, and if fact some do, like the widely available Federal 5.7 boxes.
>too poor to FN.jpg
maybe one day you'll get off that fixed income of $20 a week and get a part time job at mcdonalds; then you can just buy a FN57 and shitpost hard about it and your "AP handgun bullets" while nursing some sick buyers remorse.
>what is cart before the horse
a round looking for a purpose in the modern age militarily and the civilian market, but finding neither.
>make affordable guns that must take 30%+ more chamber pressure when firing standard pressure ammunition within the same general size and material constraints as existing handguns.
there is a reason why the FN57 costs that much, and it isn't all due to the fact that it has a nonexistant market.
>less than half the product
good handgun calibers and expansion go hand in hand. 5.7x28 either whizzing through a target or getting adequate penetration at only .243" wide is far from ideal, as every police force to adopt the P90 quickly realized
>a round looking for a purpose in the modern age militarily and the civilian market, but finding neither.
Then why did NATO recommend retiring 9x19 and completely replacing it with 5.7x28?
You faggots never can answer that one.
Because that's how the fucking economy works, numbnuts.
300BLK used to be $1.60/rd. Now it's .60c/rd.
.357sig was about $1/r when it first came out, now cheap shit can be found for .50c/rd
Right now 5.7 is .60c/rd with literally ONE fucking available handgun on the market that shoots it that's vastly overpriced.
If anyone could buy a 30rd pistol in 5.7mm for $500 we'd see .30c/rd ammo within a year or two, and would eventually get down to the price of 9mm.
And if Bernaul bought up a dozen 5.7 production lines and started cranking the shit out, it'd drop even faster.
Except they won't, because the demand isn't there and they'd lose money.
That's why no one's making another 5.7 pistol. The demand is just not there.
>bu...bu...bu... tokarev ball ammo can bust a IIA vest!
here's the key point you're missing: "and?"
you don't know jack shit about US law or bullet construction
>not the one keeping companies from manufacturing ammunition
>American Eagle 5.7x28
>not a product of federal and FN cutting a deal to try to operate the bilge on a sinking ship
no one bought them for that price. maybe idiots, maybe you based on how much you're shilling for intratec, but the MSRP of $500 was the butter zone of blowing cash on a PoS like the PMR30 as a plinking gun
then why didn't they do it?
>you faggots never can answer that one
the FN57 is in the strain of the Colt Scamp. In both cases people realized "thats fucking retarded" and didn't adopt them.
Factory new, it's pretty nice. It's what 9mm is to .45 in everything but price.
But it has a special coating that makes the cases easier to feed and extract.
It's not as forgiving as weaker amunition when it comes to what works well with the powder.
>then why didn't they do it?
Because Germany was assravaged over H&K not winning the contract with 4.6x30mm and blocked NATO adopting it.
There, I answered with the facts.
Now you answer my question, fucking retard.
It has everything to do with the subject.
You aren't qualified or knowledgeable enough to say what's in demand and what's not.
The PMR30 proves there is a high demand for a full sized pistol with 30 rds in a flush fitting magazine.
5.7 can provide that platform with none of the problems of a rimmed cartridge and superior ballistic performance
>thinking there is real a demand for a pmr30 as anything but the poorfriends FN57/range toy
I guess unlike the FN5.7 hot loaded
>one PCC trial
>implying germany wasn't right
>answer muh question
because the concept of a small caliber high capacity pistol has existed since the 60's, has been tested, and found lacking EVERY FUCKING TIME
See: Colt scamp. tested by the US army and US Air Force 20 years before 5.7x28 was a glimmer in FNs eye and NOT adopted for military service as a replacement of the M1911
>yfw .22scamp is a superior round to 5.7x28 too
>. tested by the US army and US Air Force 20 years before 5.7x28
I never fucking said a goddamn thing about that militaries should adopt 5.7mm, EVER.
All I fucking said was that there is a consumer demand for a high capacity pistol and 5.7 is superior to rimfire currently used in that type of weapon.
Also, .22scamp looks cool but I see no data anywhere that says it outperforms 5.7x28...
>Unfortunately, despite positive reviews by the few military personnel who got to test the SCAMP, the ultimate response was the military was not looking to replace the M1911A1 pistol at the time.
>Another source states the Army rejected the SCAMP in 1971 because it was already working on a parallel development, the 'Personal Defense Weapon'.
>.22scamp is great, we're just not looking for a replacement right now
>.22scamp is great, but we're already working on a different concept called a PDW
>mfw the PDW programs result in the development of 5.7x28
/k/ is the biggest shithole...goddamn.
Going right back to the necessity of more firearms chambered in 5.7 so the price comes down, just like EVERY OTHER FUCKING NON-MILITARY CARTRIDGE EVER INVENTED.
Jesus christ you people are fucking stupid lol.
>hurr then why didn't NATO adopt it
>I never fucking said a goddamn thing about that militaries should adopt 5.7mm, EVER.
you do understand what NATO is... right?
3 more rounds than a 9mm pistol for far worse ballistic characteristics at 3x the price per round, only available in a handful of pistols.
>bu hurr other limited adoption rounds!
designed to be used in existing firearm frames with changes to existing and in the works firearms being limited to different barrels and slides.
>hurr 30 rounds
have you ever held a 22mag and a 5.7x28 round? it is a NECKED CARTRIDGE. the case diameter is almost that of 9mm, which is why flush fit FN57 mags can hold 3 whole more rounds than a standard capacity 9mm pistol magizine.
>and then the whole thing was scrapped as a big fucking waste of time and nothing was adopted
you forgot that part.
>you do understand what NATO is... right?
Yeah, they're NATO, the people who say that 5.7mm is fucking better than 9mm. That's the only reason I mentioned them, jackass.
So, answer the question faggot, if 5.7mm is garbage, then why did NATO want to completely replace 9mm with it?
>3 more rounds than a 9mm pistol
Last I checked faggot, the highest capacity flushfit mag in 9mm held 17.
For those who can count, 30 minus 17 is 13.
13 more rounds.
Counting sure is fun.
>the case diameter is almost that of 9mm
It's 2.3mm thinner than 9mm, which means you get one extra round in 5.7mm for every 2 rds of 9mm.
FN's mags aren't as space efficient as they could be.
Read the thread faggot, there are hundreds of examples of guns being produced for obscure cartridges that are WAY rarer and less used than 5.7mm.
>there are hundreds of examples
You forgot to mention that many of those are steaming piles of failure that went nowhere brought losses to the companies.
If someone with money and power in those companies thought 5.7 was as sure a bet as you say it is, it would be happening already.
>Yeah, they're NATO, the people who say that 5.7mm is fucking better than 9mm. That's the only reason I mentioned them, jackass.
>The North Atlantic Treaty Organization, also called the North Atlantic Alliance, is an intergovernmental military alliance based on the North Atlantic Treaty which was signed on 4 April 1949
thread over? yeah thread over, this guys a fucking idiot.
>a figure pulled out of my ass.jpg
the FN47 is 20
the PMR30 is 30
because the .22mag is.... get this... much smaller in case diameter than 5.7x28, allowing a doublestack mag to hold 30 rounds.
so in your "calculations" did you take into account that it still has to be a double stack mag? because thats where your "math" turns from "30" to "20" and shows how fucking stupid you are
>inb4 "some company" should shell out the cash to engineer a triplestack/quadstack magizine for a marketless gun in a caliber with shit loadings made by only two companies.
>the case diameter is almost that of 9mm, which is why flush fit FN57 mags can hold 3 whole more rounds than a standard capacity 9mm pistol magizine.
and that's with the FN57 mag being double feed vs a single feed 9mm mag
lol, what's your point about NATO retard? That it exists? I'm not arguing that NATO doesn't exist, I'm telling you they wanted to replace 9mm with 5.7mm, do you understand that you fucking retarded moron?
>cause the .22mag is.... get this... much smaller in case diameter than 5.7x28
The .22mag is....get this....a rimmed cartridge you fucking imbecile, and is' only 0.3mm thinner than the 5.7 case.
The FN mag can be wider with two nearly parallel stacks of 5.7 with a follower offset by 1mm a side ending in thinner feedlips one round wide and get 30rds into a magazine 5.4in tall at a 15 degree angle.
You're a literal fucking retard.
Don't mind me, just waving my bigger dick around all you penciled dick bullets.
But seriously the fucking bullet suffers from memeing. It's the opposite spectrum of the .50 ae haha
>Then why did NATO recommend retiring 9x19 and completely replacing it with 5.7x28?
>I never fucking said a goddamn thing about that militaries should adopt 5.7mm, EVER.
>lol, what's your point about NATO retard? That it exists? I'm not arguing that NATO doesn't exist, I'm telling you they wanted to replace 9mm with 5.7mm, do you understand that you fucking retarded moron?
>I never fucking said a goddamn thing about that militaries should adopt 5.7mm, EVER.
I find it very hard to think you are honestly this stupid, but your post pattern has been autism and damage control, not blatant shitposting, so I guess you actually are.
>the rim diameter is the round diameter
so "how rimfire magazines work" can be added to the list of shit your retarded ass doesn't understand.
>I know better than the dozens of engineers who built the FN57.jpg
>mfw you probably forgot the spring has to go in there too
Lol, goddamn you've reached peak stupidity.
Let's see if you can grasp this:
>I want an affordable high capacity pistol in 5.7mm
>faggots say 5.7 not stronk, 9mm stronk
>I say, look, NATO say 5.7 stronk, more stronk than 9mm
>I don't care whether NATO gets 5.7 or not, I just want my pistol with many 5.7
>here you come
>HURR BUT Y-YOU SAID NARO BUT THEN YOU SAID NOT NARO AND NOW YOU DAY NO NARO AT ALL! LOL MAN DUMB RIGHT F-A-M!
I guess your confusion hinges on not understanding what the argument is. That's a symptom of being a fucking retard.
>so "how rimfire magazines work" can be added to the list of shit your retarded ass doesn't understand.
They stagger the rims horizontally, which gives you 0.1mm more space per 2 rounds.
I understand you suck at English comprehension and you obviously also fucking suck at basic arithmetic but I fucking ASSURE you my synaptic lacking friend, you CAN fit 30 rds of 5.7mm brass in a flush fit mag for a fullsized pistol.
Your question was
>Why isn't 5.7 a more popular handgun cartridge?
And you were told again and again why that is so and your reaction was to spend hours lashing out and saying absolutely nothing is shifting your stance. Your reaction is to call everyone stupid and say this board is retarded.
You don't want a discussion, you want an echochamber. Go here for that:
Literally there's not been a single fucking explanation why there's not more 5.7 handguns other than
I just shut down every one of your arguments, I even explained in detail why the cost issue isn't even a real argument.
The only explanation at this point I can come up with for why there aren't more 5.7 handguns is because of fucking retards like you who would go around telling everyone why they're stupid for wanting to buy 5.7 handguns.
I just want a pistol like the PMR30 that doesn't shoot a shitty rimfire cartridge.
Apparently some fucking assholes around here have a problem with that because they're such fucking morons that literally the diameter of a bullet, the diameter of a case, and an amount of propellant inside of it is grounds to make themselves feel better about their shortcomings as human beings and tell people why they're stupid for wanting a device that uses it.
I'd say that's more pathetic than anything.
>Literally there's not been a single fucking explanation why there's not more 5.7 handguns other than
-the inherent flaws in the concept and execution of 5.7x28 and the thought process behind "lots of small bullets bruh!"
-the fact that it's one selling point is not available due to a ban on armor piercing handgun ammo
-the fact that the FN57 holds 3 MORE ROUNDS than a double stack 9mm
-the fact that 5.7x28 is shit as a handgun round; small bullet, no expansion, icepicks with fmj and doesn't get adequate penetration with hunting rounds
-the fact that unlike other limited adoption rounds, it will not fit in the lions share of pistol frames/magwells, meaning a company can't just make a pistol in 10mm, 40s&w, .357sig, 9mm with a bit of engineering double checking and limited changes to tooling and production line.
-the fact that standard pressure rounds of 5.7x28 have 20% higher chamber pressure than 9mm+p
-the fact that no company is going to waste the capital fixing a failed concept of Fabrique Nationale
you're not going to get it no matter how REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE you get, because the crem de la crem of FN engineers can't find a way to cram more than 20 rounds into a mag, despite you knowing better.
>too expensive per round
>Five-Seven pistol is a cheaply made piece of shit
>muh stoppan powah
>politicians hate it because of its high penetration
I'm honestly surprised Obama hasn't tried to ban it like 5.45x39
Well then go make one. No company as of yet has seen a value in investing their money into developing a pistol for it, so you can do one of three things: 1) just buy a FiveseveN 2) make your own firearms company, developed the pistol, and bring it to market 3) shut up.
>, because the crem de la crem of FN engineers can't find a way to cram more than 20 rounds into a mag, despite you knowing better.
To be fair, they didn't design the fiveseven with only 20 rounds because they couldn't fit anymore, they did it because of weight. I own a fiveseven and extended 30 rounders and the extra weight is very noticeable. I recall reading about how they designed the fiveseven before i bought mine and weight was one of their primary concerns. I'm looking at my 20 round magazine right now and the other guy is right, these rounds are stacked very tall, there's definitely more room they could make for a wider stack and fit more rounds, maybe not 30, eyeballing it I'd say 25-26 more likely. Then again, this magazine could be almost an inch taller and still be shorter than my glock mag. I'm going to have to go with OP probably being right about being able to fit 30, but I can definitely tell you that the fiveseven was made with 20 for weight constraints, it was part of their design goals.
Take that for what you will.
Not an argument, guns are routinely manufactured with a smaller audience and chambered in rarer calibers than 5.7 and companies willingly take this risk. The PMR30 proves there is a viable market for this type of handgun.
>-the inherent flaws in the concept and execution of 5.7x28 and the thought process behind "lots of small bullets bruh!"
Is by far the most effective self defense philosophy. You anti-5.7 faggots love to talk about the failure of the P90 to neutralize threats without filling them full of holes but that's LITERALLY WHAT IT WAS DESIGNED TO FUCKING DO.
Study after scientific study proves there is NO SUCH THING AS STOPPAN POWAH, it's a fudd meme for fucking retards like you.
THE most effective way to neutralize a thread is A.) Shot placement and B) Volume of Fire
THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT 5.7 WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMPLISH. PERIOD. NO ARGUMENT. DONE.
>-the fact that the FN57 holds 3 MORE ROUNDS than a double stack 9mm
LOL nigger you've been blown the fuck out on this point already, I literally fucking described all the dimensions to you of a 30 rd 5.7mm magazine.
dis nigga know exactly what I'm talking about
>-the fact that 5.7x28 is shit as a handgun round; small bullet, no expansion, icepicks with fmj and doesn't get adequate penetration with hunting rounds
That's funny, I already blew out your asshole on the fact that NATO researchers say that 5.7mm outperforms 9mm in every metric, so much so that they wanted to completely replace 9mm with 5.7, and would have if Germany weren't assmad kekks over HK being BTFO with 4.6mm,
>-the fact that unlike other limited adoption rounds, it will not fit in the lions share of pistol frames/magwells
>new pistol designs are literally never invented, it just doesn't happen.
>-the fact that standard pressure rounds of 5.7x28 have 20% higher chamber pressure than 9mm+p
MAX pressure for 5.7 is 345.0 MPa, 9mm +P is 265.45 MPa, You're a fucking moron.
It's like you fags don't want superior wound vectors.
I get it, were pretty civil on k. But seriously shit talking is kind of the point of being here and not a different site.
So quit being emotionally involved with that faggots opinions. Sit on your dragon dildo and call him a nigger.
>here have a fucking kitten for your feelings
How the fuck is .357 Sig special snowflake? It's just .40S&W necked down to 9mm. It works in practically any .40S&W pistol with a barrel change and maybe a stronger recoil spring.
>all this raging
OP, you're a fucking tard. Just because something is good or slightly better than the current tech doesn't mean that it will be adopted. Quit screaming about 5.7 performance, the performance is fine. It's not being adopted because people just don't care, because there's a stigma against small rounds, because manufactures need to make new guns
You going to explain why that's retarded? They'd have to make new frames that fit the mags. That would require something to make short ammo and long ammo fit, like the way those Chinese 9mm-converted Tokarevs have the stupid spacer inside to fit the 9mm mags. All that for a round that nobody buys. If people really cared about 5.7 they'd have a FiveSeven pistol.
Personally I like the 5.7 round and would like to see it available in more firearms with more powerful loads. I used to have the Five seveN pistol and liked it alot but just couldn't justify keeping it when I got the opportunity to partial trade it plus $800 for a brand new FN SCAR 17s a few years back.
I understand it's strengths and limitations.
However 7.62 tok tier ammo should not be that expensive.
At what, 200 meters? Beyond handgun range anyway?
Okay guys, I shill for the fucking FiveseveN. I think it's a fantastically fun gun to shoot, it's incredibly accurate, has insanely light recoil and could do serious damage in soft tissue with a round so small tumbling around.
That said, the feasibility of using the round as a carry defense round is absurd. It excels with a longer barrel at a decent range. Your round count in a subcompact pistol would be more akin to the difference between 9mm and .40 S&W or .40 to .45, possibly only a round or two per mag. The shorter barrel of a carry piece would be a major detriment to the round, not allowing it to build up enough pressure to reach any sort of real velocity for the round, causing inaccuracy and lack of kinetic force. Furthermore, in a crisis situation, the round doesn't have a strong ability to translate a lot of force period. It would have no stopping power for someone rushing you and would only cause significant injury if it struck something vital. This is exacerbated at ranges you would see in a self defense situation within 15 yards (feet?) that most altercations occur.
But with a decent barrel you could easily shoot someone from 50 yards down your driveway and reasonably expect to hit within inches of where you aimed.
literally no such thing in any handgun round shy of maybe 454 Casull, 50AE, etc.
the only, only, only, only relevant considerations in a SD situation with a handgun is SHOT PLACEMENT and VOLUME OF FIRE.
There is no better round to accomplish this with near complete reliability than 5.7mm.
>THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT 5.7 WAS DESIGNED TO ACCOMPLISH.
Actually no. NATO criteria for incapacitation was kinetic energy transfer inside 20 cm gelatin block ("STOPPAN POWAH doesn't exist" fags BTFO). 5.7 ball was designed to have better kinetic energy transfer than 9mm NATO ball.
>it's been 2 days and OP is still REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEing
It's a failed concept. you not agreeing with the laundry list of reasons why no one wants a FN57, let alone a market of handguns in your meme caliber, doesn't make them not true
>hurr but I think I can cram more rounds into a mag than FN engineers
as that other guy said. 30 rounds of 5.7 is like 8+lbs. just because in your autistic little mind you think FN didn't try hard enough to make a higher cap flush fit because "hurr 22wmr can fit in a 30 round mag ;_;" is inconsequential
>hurr a small projectile icepicking through your guy is preferable, sure 9mm hollowpoints turn into .53" projectiles after expansion but muh .224FMJ
>REEE WHO CARES 5.7x28 HOLLOWPOINTS GET LESS THAN 5" OF PENETRATION
>REEE STOPPAN POWAH ISN'T A THING A .22 CALIBER PROJECTILE IS FINE
the test you're referring to was relating to 9mm, 40s&w, 45acp (and maybe .357sig, but i don't think it was tested). there are no significant differences between these service calibers in regards to what the FBI was looking for in a handgun round. real pistol rounds being within an acceptable range of each other=/= 5.7x28 (optimized and designed for a 10" barrel with a pistol as an afterthought) not being shit out of a handgun
No company is going to design a rifle, let alone a pistol from the ground up to fix FNs baby.
No company is going to design a whole new ungainly pistol frame to fit 5.7x28, or spend the capital engineering a capable modern handgun that can handle the full retard chamber pressure of this dog of a cartrige
>bu...bu....bu....muh duty sized handgun for CC
>bu...bu...bu...muh AP pistol ammo... that I can't buy
the whole PDW concept is based around the incorrect assumption that criminals and terrorists use body armor in any meaningful amount. It was stupid in the 90's and it's stupider now.
>the whole PDW concept is based around the incorrect assumption that criminals and terrorists use body armor in any meaningful amount. It was stupid in the 90's and it's stupider now.
There is nothing incorrect with AP rounds concept for military.
I think you need to take a break buddy, you're really kind of making yourself look embarrassing. I love my fiveseven, it's my favorite handgun and I wish it were slightly smaller so I could CC it. I don't even have so much of a hardon for 30 rounds capacity like OP, I'd still take 5.7mm over 9mm any day, it's just a better shooting round by far.
except that AP 5.7x28 can only go through soft armor (with the right loadings in certain conditions/ranges) and is entirely outclassed by M995.
for military use it is redundant, for counter terrorist/SWAT use it's unneeded as well as redundant thanks to this thing called SBRs.
and you're welcome to it, but it is a severe minority opinion as the market has proven over more than a decade.
It's a failed concept. An answer looking for a question.
>if it was smaller
if it had any shorter of a barrel, it'd be even worse ballistically. if FN developed a pistol load with faster burning powder optimized for the FN47 then you'd have something, but they either can't or don't want to.
literally no one cares. you have your answer as to why no one wants an FN47 or other companies to make pistols in this caliber. If you don't like that, then stew in autism it like OP.
What i see is an angry kid on a chinese image board who put some unverified internet rumors to paper as if they were fact, and who was later made to look VERY uniformed.
The fact is, that in the Fort Hood incident, the Five SeveN armed terrorist stopped 4 attackers at close range- instantly.
2 soldiers who attacked him with chairs/table, an orderly that tried to rush him, and officer Munley, whose femur was utterly shattered from a single hit to the knee- which knocked her out of the fight immediately. So when put to the test, the FsN went 4 for 4 on "instant stops" in a real world terrorist incident.
I have personally shot "anemic" SS192 FN ammo (the fort hood attackers round of choice) through 48 layers of Kevlar. Elite S4M takes the same round, and cranks the velocity up another 400+ fps.
The Elite S4M has been independently chronoe'd at over 2500fps from the FsN PISTOL, and has been independently tested by Brassfetcher labs.
In their summary, Brassfetcher stated OUTRIGHT that Elite S4M is slightly more capable than .45 ACP Hydroshok JHP ammunition.
Brassfetcher are true industry experts...and they have spoken.
You need to get with the times kiddo, and drop your attitude.
You're not that smart.
People like this make me want to get a fiveseven.
Well that and my rampant hardon for FNH.
>except that AP 5.7x28 can only go through soft armor (with the right loadings in certain conditions/ranges) and is entirely outclassed by M995.
>for military use it is redundant
Area of soldier protected by soft armor only including helmet is like 3-4 times larger than area covered by rifle plates. So such AP capabilities makes a difference comparing to rounds not able to defeat any armor at all.
take note that in the Fort Hood attack, Officer Todd had to shoot the terrorist FIVE TIMES with a 9mm to put him down, whereas the terrorist put down Officer Munley with just a single "low powered" FN factory 40gr V-Max SS197SR hit to the knee, taking her completely out of the fight.
On top of that, the 5.7mm has 30% less recoil than standard pressure 9mm, the ammo is extremely light and compact (1200rds will fit in a single .30 cal ammo can), and the FsN pistol itself is extremely lightweight, accurate, and easy to shoot. Oh yeah...and it renders Level IIIA soft body armor completely useless and obsolete. (which i have verified in my own tests when i shot factory SS192 ammo at 2100fps from an FsN Pistol through 48 layers of kevlar)
Really, the Five SeveNs ability to be precisely rapid fired is far in excess of what i can do with either my Sig P228, my HK P7, or pretty much any other duty caliber sidearm i've ever shot.
You're really just making this argument absurdly easy to make by making yourself look really stupid on the internet.
>all this FN47 assmad
we get it, you need to legitimize your purchase on a mongolian shadow picture board. Still, no one cares.
>he shot them and they stopped attacking him with desks
25acp would have done the same thing. shooting people tends to have the effect of shooting people. fort hood<every police department to ditch the P90
>blah blah I shot loose non NIJ rated scrap kevlar and it went through, totally AP REEEEEEE!
you people always spout shit like this, but can never say "I shot this properly supported NIJ tested IIIa vest and it went through". If the Brady campaign couldn't do it with a IIIa vest and the police can't replicate your claims at point blank range, then you're full of shit. If the brady campaign had to lie about your cop killa bullets, then they ain't vest busters.
>commercialized hobby website
It's always the same asshurt and debunked damage control with you people. At least OP's low functioning autism was interesting for the first few minutes until he just started shitting all over himself as 30 people told him he was retarded.
>inb4 I don't beleive u, here's that one clip of some guys shooting a non NIJ IIa side insert at 15 feet braced against a block of wood!
we don't care m8. 24 years of mediocrity says all anyone needs to say about 5.7x28, the P90, and the FN47. It's a commercial failure, but enjoy yours if you like it.
Do you ever tire of posting bait? You're not even making sense anymore and you've ignored the fact that you've been proven wrong multiple times.
>30 people told him he was retarded.
You mean you've posted 30 times?
FNIDF plz, I know you saw "5.7x28" and had to come to tell everyone how amazing your FN57 is and how you totally don't regret purchasing, but something tells me you'll magically disappear after reading some of the spergy autism OP filled this thread with after people told him repeatedly why companies aren't making the 30round flush fit 5.7x28 CC pistol of his dreams.
I'm not even going to bother reading the thread, but it's obvious from your last 3 posts that you're trying to prove something that you don't really know anything about.
And a 30 round 5.7 pistol sounds pretty awesome to me.
>I'm not even going to bother reading the thread
>I'm not going to talk about the OP
>I'm just going to tell you all about the glory that is the 5.7x28 and how it totally isn't a failed concept!
yfw you don't even know the faggotry you've chosen to ally yourself with
we've seen all your "facts" and arguments bub, but get this...
no one cares.
If someone wants a rifle that can actually go through soft armor, they buy an AR
If someone wants a full sized duty gun that can hold 20 rounds, they buy a floorplate extender
If we lived in a world where Tyrone was robbing you in a suit of IIIa body armor and AP handgun ammunition wasn't illegal to produce or import then maybe there would be a place for 5.7x28... but 82gr 9x19 7n21 would still piss in your FN brand cornflakes.
Is there an issue getting a rifle round to penetrate soft armor in your misbegotten land?
Yes but 5.7 AP ammo does not meet the ATF requirements for armor piercing.
Are you being so silly that you think the definition of ARMOR PIERCING, has anything to do with its actual ability to pierce armor?
You can, it's just a pain in the ass due to the proprietary coating limiting case life.
>Again, reloading isn't really a factor in potential commercial success.
When you are introducing a new cartridge it kind of is. I'm pretty sure people who reload and people who don't put many rounds through their guns are the two main early adopters for new cartridges, at least when it comes to rifles.
>Only because FN makes the cases thin
>There is NOTHING intrinsic to the 5.7 cartridge that REQUIRES it have a polymer coating for operation in any other weapon, including the fucking Five-SeveN.
The problem is FN having the idea of using it with blowback guns (both the Fiveseven and P90 are blowback) which requires a special coating for safe extraction (just like early machine guns that had cartridge oilers).
Well, I just made it to the bottom of this thread and now I have cancer.
>all the idiots arguing about the size of wounds left by pistol ammunition like it would actually make a difference in stopping someone in a reasonable amount of time
Realistically it's going to take 20 seconds for a determined person to stop fighting due to blood loss IF you shoot them in the right places, you better be carrying a few extra mags or working on your hand to hand fighting skills if you want to depend on blood loss to stop someone.
>If someone wants a full sized duty gun that can hold 20 rounds, they buy a floorplate extender
At which point you could have a gun chambered in 5.7x28mm or smaller that would hold more than 20 rounds, and you don't get the advantage of the much lower recoil that would allow you to put those rounds on target faster and give you more of a chance of hitting something that would actually stop the person, such as their spine. I'm still holding out for a gun company to do something intelligent like release a rimless version of .25 ACP loaded to higher pressures so I can fit 20 rounds into a subcompact pistol, but that isn't going to happen because gun owners obsess over small differences in the size of pistol ammunition. Maybe the anti gun side is right about some things and it does have something to do with comparing it to your dick size.
>The problem is FN having the idea of using it with blowback guns (both the Fiveseven and P90 are blowback) which requires a special coating for safe extraction (just like early machine guns that had cartridge oilers).
No, it isn't. The Five-seveN is not a blowback pistol for fucks sake the pressures are EXTREMELY too high for blowback operation in a pistol.
The P90 is blowback but that isn't at all why the cases have a polymer coating.
The ONLY, ONLY reason FN coats their rounds is operation of the P90 magazine, period. When the rounds come down and rotate around eachother when dropping into the chamber they can bind if they aren't lubricated.
That's the fucking reason.
actually the polymer coating does have to do with blowback operation and FTE, but you're right that it's only about the P90 because it's designed for fullauto fire and has a very high chamber pressure for such a small round. Otherwise you're right, you don't actually need the coating, even in the P90 if it's semi-auto, it will be just fine.
>No, it isn't. The Five-seveN is not a blowback pistol for fucks sake the pressures are EXTREMELY too high for blowback operation in a pistol.
The Fiveseven is a delayed blowback pistol and instead of fluting the chamber FN went with a proprietary lubricant coating. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with you as you obviously don't know shit yet consider yourself an expert on the topic, go and actually look up reloading for 5.7x28mm.
>>YFW all you need is a barrel change and your MP5 is suddenly relevant again.
that'd be all well and good, if they actually marketed that, instead of their four thousand dollar acid proof steel uzi
of course it's delayed blowback, dumbass, All pistols are blowback except snowflakes like the DE which are gas.
The fiveseven isn't any different than a glock or 1911, it's a browning action delayed blowback pistol and the fucking polymer coating has literally FUCKING NOTHING to do with it's operation in a pistol, period.
You fucking fuddloaders don't know shit.
>All pistols are blowback except snowflakes like the DE which are gas.
There's a difference between recoil operated and delayed blowback you tard, most pistols are recoil operated not delayed blowback. You seem to be approaching the peak of mount stupid. Jesus this board is full of fucking retards.
Try checking your facts with the manufacturer before you make a fool of yourself.
This >>27801564 post might be right about the P90, but when I called FN about the polymer coating and my fiveseven they said it wasn't required for the operation of my pistol and I could fire any 5.7 ammo in it, including reloads and ammo made by other manufacturers, like Federal who don't coat their 5.7 ammo with polymer.
>Jesus this board is full of fucking retards.
You're one of them.
Anon don't bother 80% of this board are poorfags, noguns, children, or yuropore. Firearms is an expensive hobby yet these kids and poorfags seems to justify that if "I can't buy it, then it's shit" mindset
Gonna have to look up more about the gun and see for myself now as it appears even FN doesn't know what their gun is. Here's a link to their website where they say it's delayed blowback:
>they said it wasn't required for the operation of my pistol and I could fire any 5.7 ammo in it, including reloads
I'm going to need a recording of that call or some other evidence of that claim outside of a post on 4chan, as I have yet to see a manufacturer that approves of using reloads in their guns.
>FN doesn't know what their gun is. Here's a link to their website where they say it's delayed blowback
Right, it's fucking RECOIL OPERATED DELAYED BLOWBACK.
>I have yet to see a manufacturer that approves of using reloads in their guns.
They didn't "approve" of anything, I asked if it was safe to fire cases without the polymer on them like handloads and they said it wouldn't affect the operation of the pistol. I called specifically to ask about the polymer because I once had dreams of reloading and wanted to know if it mattered since all these fucking dumb reloaders on forums think they know what the fuck they're talking about. Literally just fucking call FN USA yourself and ask them if you don't believe me.
Just admit you have no fucking idea what you're talking about man.
>RECOIL OPERATED DELAYED BLOWBACK.
Those are two completely different systems, you can't have both at the same time. It's like saying caffeinated decaff coffee.
Every gun manual I've read, and I've read a few from different manufacturers, has specifically said that they don't consider handloads to be safe to use.
Dude, you are fucking stupid, I'm trying to help you but you have to be able to admit when you're wrong and then learn how you were wrong.
>Those are two completely different systems
No child, they aren't. Recoil delayed action is a form of blowback operation. There is also straight blowback that relies on the weight of the slide for delaying the action.
>Every gun manual I've read, and I've read a few from different manufacturers, has specifically said that they don't consider handloads to be safe to use.
That's fucking wonderful. FN never told me handloads were safe, dumbass, read the words I wrote, they told me a lack of polymer on the case wouldn't affect the operation of the pistol. That's it.
Fucking reading comprehension, nigger.
>Recoil delayed action is a form of blowback operation
Blowback guns function from the gasses pushing the base of the cartridge against the bolt face, recoil operated guns function on a completely different principal, see pic related from George Chinn's "The Machine Gun" volume 4.
>FN never told me handloads were safe
Your original post specifically said "including reloads" which would imply that they did, now you're backpedaling on what you said.
yeah, keep telling yourself that the only handgun worth a moderate damn in 5.7 is just going to drop $700 in price ever. Or that ammo will ever be near comparable in price to 9mm.
There's a noticeable difference if you plan on waiting 30 seconds for the person to bleed out while they rape you. Otherwise the only difference is about 1/5" extra margin of error on hitting what's important.
>As for performance, NATO said that 5.7 met ALL of it's performance goals for replacing 9x19mm as it's standard handgun/PDW caliber, but Germany blocked it.
This. It was otherwise unanimously voted in favour of being a standardized NATO cartridge but Germany was butthurt the P90 blew the MP7 out of the water and they couldn't even get the UCP working so they cock-blocked it.
>5.7 isn't a failure. It's one of the most deployed LE calibers in the world.
5.7fags in charge of not being delusional, everyone.
You are a fucking moron.
The impulse from the recoil is provided from the blowback from the combustion of gunpowder directly, which provides the impulse that operates the recoil action, thus making it a recoil operated delayed blowback system, since the action delays the opening of the bolt through using recoil to lock the bolt against the barrel until the pressure drops to a safe level.
IT'S STILL BLOWBACK OPERATION.
Is an AR15 in either DI or gas piston a blowback operated firearm? No, because the blowback pressure against the case is not what operates the action.
There is straight blowback, recoil delayed blowback, roller delayed blowback, etc.
They're all fucking blowback, dipshit.
Now pay me for tutoring you, FFS.
Yes, those are also some of the most deployed LE calibers in the world.
see how english works?
>one of the
It's pretty cool how you can include something in a group of things by including the preposition "of"
Back to elementary school with you.
Yeah there was no way I could pass that shit up. My SCAR is my fucking baby hands down my favorite firearm that I own. I would consider getting another Five seveN, but it would have to come down in price significantly or better yet we se more pistols on the market that make use of the round.
How about you make, say, 50 5.7 conversion kits for some random pistol, have a shop with CNC brake make you some 30 round 5.7 magazines for said gun, price it at say $500 (yes you will take a loss) and see how fast it sells?
if in fact this huge market for a meme caliber handgun does exist, you can start investing in the equipment to mass produce it and become wealthy
You will then have the right to come back and make an I TOLD YOU SO thread on /k/
If it doesn't sell, you'll have a lifetime supply of your special meme guns you can shoot
Notice I said worldwide. According to FN they supply LE agencies in over 40 nations.
More than half of the calibers you listed are not widely adopted in LE across the globe. Goddamn have some perspective.
>for some random pistol
What pistol? One of the major problems with 5.7x28mm is that it's almost 1/3" long than .45 ACP and companies would have to design completely new frames to accommodate it, and new slides to go with those new frames, and new trigger components to go with those new frames, and so on and so forth. For comparison, most .40 S&W, 9mm, and .357 Sig pistols are built on the same frame with minor slide modifications between 9mm and .40/.357 sig and only a barrel swap between .40 and .357 sig. Between 10mm and .45 ACP you have a barrel swap and minor slide modifications with the same frame.
> 6th most popular caliber for LE
You know, I almost bought the argument for only handgun calibers. But overall? Your fucking deluded.
everything listed here covers literally almost all the globe, missing only 5.56
I think you need the fucking perspective. the fact you think 5.7 is more popular than any slav caliber shows how little perspective you actually have.
>a single digit number of P90s in the SOF of some shitfuckistan
>hundreds of thousands of weapons chambered in 9x18 / 5x45 / 7,62x39 in service in LEO/MIL units of most former USSR countries AND the countries supplied by them
Gee, I wonder which one should be considered a "more popular LE caliber".
Have some perspective?
popular fucking everywhere
popular in any poor country
popular in North America
popular in any South American/African/Asian/Com Bloc country
Popular fucking everywhere but especially Europe and North America
REALLY FUCKING POPULAR EVERYWHERE
Are you actually retarded or just so deluded that you think 5.7 is loved and appreciated by everyone other than 4chan?
Just the number of police agency and police in the US will outnumber any possible police agency that is using 5.7.
>Goddamn have some perspective.
Says the guy comparing an unnumbered number of LE agencies to the rest of the world. "LE agencies in over 40 nations" does not mean that the whole nation's police are using 5.7, it means that somewhere in that country, at least 1 police agency is using it. It is an absolutely useless metric.