So I didn't see any agender threads, so I decided to makes one.
Agender falls under the trans umbrella, so I figured this would be the best place to start this thread.
Do any of you Agenders with dicks ever feel the need to tuck your dicks, to appear more androgynous?
i know this is typically something done by trans women and drag queens, but not having to deal with dick bulge when wearing tighter clothing seems so much nicer.
Do agenders simply not like traditional representations/stereotypes/expectations of masculinity/femininity? I mean, you don't have to fit into those to begin with. It seems like "I'm a special snowflake who can't be pinned down with these labels so I renounce them altogether."
I've seen the often Agenders are people who have experimented with identifying as both male or female, and they realized that neither binary fit them, so they just went with Agender. Agender is typically a term for people who feel like they don't belong to either category.
Often these people are masculine women, or feminine men that don't necessarily want to become the other gender, but they can't identify as their sex without certain social repercussions. because they don't fit either description.
Like men who shave their legs are typically made fun of by other men, typically with names that are intending to offend their masculinity, "Sissy, pussy, etc"
Couldn't find any neither. I read the Wikipedia page and:
> The term "neutrois" was coined in 1995 by H. A. Burnham, who created the word to describe Burnham's gender and others with the same feelings.
Can't really say I'm surprise, though.
transguns do not fall under the transgender umbrella. this is not your hugbox
Fuck, too many replies, TL;DR. Sorry for being a dick but I spent like 10 minutes reading and gave up so I need someone.
What the fuck is agender? And I don't need anyone saying "it's a tumblr", I just want to know what it actually is, or at least what people say it is.
I'm reading all this different shit and it's just confusing me. So, gender is different from sex, right? So you can be agender and be male or female. Okay, I understand that, kind of. So, if you're male or female, and don't have the desire to change your genetalia, why does any of this matter? Gender? What? If you have a dick, you have a dick. If you have a vagina, you have a vagina. If you like crossdressing (I love it), you do. What does any of this have to do with gender/what is gender?
Yeah I don't fucking understand any of it. What the hell is even going on here?
What I understand so far about being agender is:
>I have penis.
>I don't care about having penis or vagina
So basically they're just normal humans? I mean, most people don't go around being like "I have a dick! Having a dick is what I do best!" and most people have never been the opposite gender, so it's like, how am I supposed to know if I'd rather have a vagina, because I have no clue what having one is like. I don't really care if I have a dick or vagina, it's not what life is about to me. Life is not about dicks or vaginas to me, so does that make me fucking agender?
I don't understand these faggots.
I get the feeling that trannies' claims to so strongly identify as the opposite sex has made some people - both trannies and non-trannies - believe that the average non-tranny strongly identifies as their biological sex, which I rather doubt to be the case. In other words,
> MtF: I feel like a woman
> FtM: I feel like a man
> MtM: I feel like a man
> FtF: I feel like a woman
>So, gender is different from sex, right?
yes, gender is different from sex
>So you can be agender and be male or female.
no that doesn't mean theyre male or female. it means they don't have a gender/don't identify with a gender. sex =/= gender
> So, if you're male or female, and don't have the desire to change your genetalia, why does any of this matter?
if you identify with the genders male or female then you're not agender
it matters because it matters to the individual
you are so fucking dense. just because this stuff doesn't matter to you doesn't mean it matters to no one else
>Life is not about dicks or vaginas to me, so does that make me fucking agender?
yes they're normal humans. every human is a normal human regardless of gender
>Life is not about dicks or vaginas to me, so does that make me fucking agender?
do you not identify with a gender? or identify as neutral? the you're probably agender
Yeah I definitely feel pretty much indifferent about my sex/gender so I call myself something like cis-genderless or cis by default. I feel like a lot of people are probably the same way. However I get the impression that a lot of guys are what you call MtM since they seem really proud of having a penis.
I don't identify as anything. I have a penis, and that's it. I don't need to be called a woman because I like to be feminine, I don't need to be called a man because I'm masculine. I just have a dick, and that only matters if people are interesting in fucking me, so, no, I don't "identify" as either. I don't go around telling people what's in my underwear, I just go around being me.
yeah but you're a fucking idiot. for some reason you've got this idea in your head that genitals = gender, and that's it. of course you're not going to understand any of this if that's how you think. why are you even trying
Yeah that's cool, if it matters to you that's fine by me. I'll call you whatever you want me to call you, but I just don't get why people who don't think it matters if they're a male or female, why do they think it matters if they're agender? Is it like "Yeah I don't care what gender I am, so there's a gender for that" or what? >>4270683
I never said that genitals are what you identify as. I said I don't identify by my genitals, and that I don't understand this whole "agender" deal.
MtM was just something I put there instead of "Cisman" because I dislike the term cis. I should have said "They assume (incorrectly)."
Anyway, yes. Some non-trannies strongly identify as their birth sex and some do not. I think most people only "identify" as their current sex because that's what they're accustomed to after living as it their whole lives and have come to equate "feeling like a man/woman" as being comfortable in their body.
>I never said that genitals are what you identify as. I said I don't identify by my genitals
All of your posts are centered around genitals tho. you don't seem capable of approaching this concept without framing it with if somebody has a dick or not lol
Male and female are sexes. Intersex is a special and extremely-rare case we can consider a statistical outlier.
Animals do not have a concept of "genders" as we do, yet we still refer to them as male and female - or intersex, in those highly-unusual cases.
intersex isn't as rare as you think and the "gender and sex are separate" concept is used against trans people a lot
>yeah but REALLY you're male
>we divide the bathrooms by sex, not gender
With your current perspective I believe you aren't capable of understanding the concept of "agender". it doesn't sound like you even understand being trans in general. sorry, bucko. maybe in a few years when you've developed more
>Male and female are sexes
>Animals do not have a concept of "genders" as we do
so why do we have to assign human concepts to animals? it doesn't really make any sense
"but females give birth" except like, males with vaginas give birth, doesn't make them female
It's not stupid, just unnecessary outside of possibly a psychological context. Most people probably qualify as agender because they don't have something in their brain telling them that they're very definitely a man/woman.
Hokay, have fun being a stuck-up narcissist, thinking you're the most mature person on the planet and that you understand everything that other people don't. Have fun with it, buddy, because if you're going to act like that, people aren't gonna jive with you so well, so at least you'll be having fun alone, rather than no fun at all.
>Most people probably qualify as agender because they don't have something in their brain telling them that they're very definitely a man/woman.
really tho. is it as simple as that. i feel like most people aren't bothered being seen/referred to as male or female. wouldn't it be more accurate to say that agender people have something in their brains telling them that they're definitely NOT a man/woman?
why. im pretty sure T doesn't make you sterile
You can't be male and have a vagina and give birth, I agree. I see people as "girls" and "boys". I don't think male and female are the right words, "male" and "female" imply genetalia, whereas "boy" and "girl" just imply mannerisms.
>Hokay, have fun being a stuck-up narcissist, thinking you're the most mature person on the planet and that you understand everything that other people don't
what the fuck are you talking about. I have a very basic understanding of gender, you have none at all. It's really obvious that you can't stop bringing genitals into this concept. like, youre not ready brah. you just cant understand this with your current backward mindset. sorry
im sure you know loads of things i dont though, on other topics. im not better than you. have a good life
We do divide the bathrooms by sex because most of the time, the words sex and gender are used synonomously. That's why their facilities are tailored toward respective biology - no urinals in the ladies' room.
Treatment of known and non-passing transexuals as their desired sex is mostly a courtesy we extend out of sympathy, politeness and/or legal requirement. Passing trannies won't typically get accosted unless they're public about their condition, in which case conflict typically comes from someone uncomfortable with their presence - usually a woman, as men seem less discomforted by the prospect in general.
Why do you think male and female are not terms used to refer to sex?
A male chicken is called a rooster. A female chicken is called a hen.
You can be male and girly, but that doesn't make you have a vagina. People see this blur between lines, I think. If you have a dick, you have a dick. If you have a vagina, you have a vagina. If you don't want what you got, you're transexual. If you want to act "girly" or "manly" then you can do that, but if you're a dude who acts "girly", that doesn't mean you have a dick. I just don't understand the whole situation with genders. I mean, to begin with, there shouldn't even be such thing as "girly" or "manly", people should just act how they want to act. I'm a transvestite, and I don't understand myself. I love acting like a "girl", but it makes no fucking sense to me. Why? Why do I want to act like a girl? I don't give a shit about any of that shit! I don't care about aesthetics, I don't care if I'm ugly, I don't care if I'm stupid, I don't care if my hair is greasy, but at the same time I do and oh my god my head is sore and I'm sorry for pushing all my shit on you guys.
>Male and female are sexes
male [meyl] noun
1.) a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
2.) an organism of the sex or sexual phase that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete.
3.) Botany. a staminate plant.
Most people who self-describe as agender claim to do so because they do not feel like a man and do not feel like a woman.
The problem is that in common English, "I don't feel like X" is often used to mean "I feel like not X." The difference is that the former implies an absence of X while the latter implies an active rejection of X. Blame the educational system and vagueness of common English.
The point is that some self-dubbed agenders might "not feel like any gender" and some might "feel like no gender." The criteria was never well-defined in the first place.
And this right here is the problem with the idea that the words "man" and "male" are separate. People use it as a method of disregarding transpeople. "They're still male!", etc. The terms "male" and "female" are unnecessarily gendered in our society and cannot be used separately from it. They will always carry the implication of gender.
Daily reminder to ^ and others that if you don't experience dysphoria, you're cis. You're not agender, you're not bigender, you're not hexgender, you're not cumberbatchgender.
You're fuckin cis. Add it to the long list of things that make you a normal cunt and realise that your gender doesn't make you boring, your personality does.
I disagree. I think its just the opposite.
>The terms "male" and "female" are unnecessarily gendered in our society and cannot be used separately from it.
Our society doesn't gender "male" and "female." You do. You are the one trying to gender "male" and "female."
>Our society doesn't gender "male" and "female."
You are fucking delusional. Most aren't even really aware about the concept of being trans. "male" and "female" have been gendered terms for centuries, it's not going to stop just because you say they aren't
ask anybody to draw a picture of a "male" and they'll draw a man. get the fuck out
It says, gender-role-conflatingly.
"Identifying" with a gender is based 100% on ingrained sexism. Liking "girly" shit doesn't make me a girl any more than liking soccer makes Sally a guy.
If you claim to identify as a different gender to the one assigned to you at birth, its for three reasons
1. You have dysphoria. Congrats, you pass GO.
2. You relate to them because of things you do (guys painting nails, girls liking contact sports). Beep, this is enforcing the binary, not deconstructing it. Go directly to logic jail.
3. You wish you were them because "Life would be easier", "I could do X". These are sexist fantasies at best, and degrading fetishism at worst. Go directly to logic jail.
I don't *identify* with being a guy. No cis person actively identifies with their gender. You're either denying that you experience dysphoria (to, fuck, I dunno, satiate your other libtard cronies) or you're just grabbing for snowflake points.
MtFs will always be male with current medical science. FtMs will always be female with current medical science. It's unfortunate, but for the time being the only solution we have for gender dysphoria is the most complicated and intensive game of make-believe ever. Eventually we may have some technology to alter sex at a chromosomal level - or, far more likely, to screen for and prevent GID in-utero. Either way, there won't be transexuals anymore; there will just be men and women (and the tiny tiny number of intersex individuals).
You say "man" and "male" are too close in our culture. I say they're too far apart, and we should bring gender back in line with sex. Because sex is what matters; gender doesn't. Gender, when used to define anything beyond just sex, is a loose collection biological and cultural averages associated with sex. Those connotations are fine as long as we remember that they're just averages rather than rules.
I don't understand your reasoning at all. How does that dictionary definition prove that society doesn't treat the term "male" as gendered?
If you showed somebody a photo of a bunch of people and asked them to circle all the males, how many are going to hand back the pen and say "I can't, I don't know their biology"? That wouldn't happen. They'll instantly circle all the men.
You are absolutely delusional if you think the term "male" is not gendered by the majority of people.
Actually, a lot of people would probably ask "a male what?" since few people use male/female when talking about humans, outside of the sciences.
Most male humans would be described as men, so understandable that the image that springs to mind when thinking of a male human looks like a man.
Most transexuals try to look like the opposite sex. MtFs would be pretty disappointed if you decided to draw them when drawing a human male.
>Most male humans would be described as men, so understandable that the image that springs to mind when thinking of a male human looks like a man.
>Because most people don't separate sex and gender as a concept unless you specifically ask them to.
This exactly what I'm saying. This is the same thing as "society treats the word 'male' as gendered". How are you agreeing with me but framing it as an opposing argument?
your concept of "gender" is a rather modern concept. For centuries "male" was and still is a concept of pertaining to sex. If someone gets it wrong, you can point them to the dictionary to correct them. Most ppl in society will accept the dictionary definition. The confusion most ppl in society are suffering from is misunderstand your redefining of gender that started in the 1960s from originally just pertaining to grammar.
I'm not sure if it makes more sense to label myself as nonbinary or cis female, hard to find a point of reference with all that tumblr stuff around. I the early 00s, internet felt smaller and filled with less noise.
I have some issues with gender roles, but none that could've caused me to be this way by the look of things. I do have some kinda social dysphoria and these "not feeling like girl" things (a better way to put it would be "feeling like a non-girl" though, it's pretty strong), but it's intermittent and manageable. I don't really get reminded of my gender on a daily basis. But it's primarily a body image thing for me. I can live with being perceived as a girl, but I want to at least have top surgery.
I don't know where it could come from, there's a lot of noise clouding my judgment, like general ambiguity intolerance that really gets in the way with androgyny in general. For now my best bet is getting my boobs cut off. It's fairly safe, I perceive flat girls as very attractive, even if for some reason I suddenly started being comfortable with being a woman and wanted to look very feminine my chest shouldn't be something I would care about. That internalized soggy knee shit was definitely a dead end, I don't get modern feminism in general.
There's no proof, but with so many stories at least some of them must not be faking shit for attention or mistaking it for gender nonconformity. Of course the phenomenon existing doesn't mean it's caused by your brain not having sex. Either way I'm not 100% sure, but mostly sure there are no studies done on the subject.
I found like half a page on the subject in some older book on transsexualism and that's the closest I could get, I'll look for it later.
It kinda meets the definition on the bottom of the picture. At least it's consistent.
I've seen it used that way since around 2005 or so (mostly because I didn't look for tranny stuff before), I was really surprised/confused when I found out people use it as a synonym for transsexuals.
A lot of agenders want to have no genitals. Then you have secondary sex characteristics and how people perceive you. There's more to gender than your dick.
>wouldn't it be more accurate to say that agender people have something in their brains telling them that they're definitely NOT a man/woman?
That's the most common definition I've seen.
There were cases of people who've been on T for years getting pregnant. I don't think you can get pregnant while on T, but people come off it due to health reasons etc.
That's a great explanation.
yes, I suffer from dysphoria; I lived openly as a ftm before realising that wasn't right either for yrs. some agenders don't. personally I believe that agender is the shit tumblr word for pls-call-me-different-pronouns and special snowflake treatment for cis people who think they're missing out. if you're not dysphoric then you don't belong in trans/non binary/agender/neutrois identities. why would you be something for kicks which is clearly a medical and mental health issue? it makes zero sense to me.
tl;dr - some do and those that don't are cis and using the term so they are a special snowflake too
>Your gender matters so much to you that you feel the need to reject it.
What a fucked up way of being. You absolutely never heard of this shit before tumblr came around with all these ideas of ~social constructs.~
But most importantly, this thread didn't immediately get mocked off the board. /lgbt/ went to shit since I last came here.
>I found like half a page on the subject in some older book on transsexualism and that's the closest I could get, I'll look for it later.
Found the book, but the page I wanted was removed. There's not much there anyway, only that some females come to gender clinic wanting to be a "third sex" and that they usually act strange (sounds like autism, but the word wasn't used there). There's some mention of males who want their genitals removed, but no change in social role in the dysmorphophobia part and it wasn't removed though.