>>5172484 >What is the difference between gender noncomforming and nonbinary? Identity. Fembois and effeminate men still identify as men, butch ladies still identify as women. >Are nonbinary people trans? Do they have dysphoria? I'd say they are under the transgender umbrella, if it you define it as anyone who doesn't identify as the gender they were assigned at birth. Some have dysphoria, the DSM 5 criteria were even rewritten to accommodate this. Some don't.
I don't actually think that there's an awful lot of difference between gender nonconforming and nonbinary. I think that it's mostly a case of people being pushed into developing an alternative gender identity because it's popular now. They'll find nonbinary people who seem to be like them and people will tell them that they are nonbinary constantly, so that's what they start to identify as.
You could possibly argue that nonbinary should only refer to GNC individuals who actually alter their bodies physically through hormones or surgery, or at least have dysphoria over some but not all of their gendered characteristics but I don't think many people who identify as nonbinary actually do that.
I guess gender nonconforming is for people who identify in the binary but aren't in the norm (femboys and butch girls), while nonbinary is for people who don't identify as a girl or a boy (so basically, agenders, people who think there's a third gender and maybe genderfluid people).
TL;DR: Gender noncomforming = Snowflake name for femboy & butch Non binary = Snowflakes who identify neither as a woman nor as a man.
Kinda but a lot of them are people who don't want to fully admit to being trans
A lot of it is cultural though. A modern transwoman would be considered any number of different things depending on what culture you placed her in. Our culture is pretty much just male/female so the answer is no, not really, barring a gigantic social upheaval
>>5172484 >Do nonbinary people actually exist? My completely inexpert guess is that yes, I think they actually do exist, but it's pretty damned hard to sift the wheat from the transtrender chaff, and I'm of the mind that they are outnumbered by simple non-conforming folks thinking they need a whole new fucking gender.
>What is the difference between gender nonconforming and nonbinary? The former is gender expression and is almost entirely social, the latter is gender identity and mostly innate.
>Are nonbinary people trans? Under the umbrella term? Yes. Under the term as used to mean transsexual? Depends.
>Do they have dysphoria? The actual genderfluid/genderqueer folks? Sure, though it's probably easily misidentified as binary trans GD just as some binary TSs will think that they're GF or GQ at first. Also, I doubt that it would tend to be as extreme as the binary sorts can get to being since biologically we're generally coded to go mostly one way or the other..
Non binary people exist... Gender nonconforming means you don't perform the binary gender roles assigned to you at birth.... Nonbinary means you don't identify on the gender binary (being a man or a woman).. NB people are trans... They can have dysphoria
I think non-binary should be different from trans. No exclusion. Please wait your turn, please, or stop demanding things as trans rights and demand them as gender rights. This schism isn't helping either group. Trans people need legit protections, a lot of people have had to suffer. Just let us get the things we need first. It's been a very long time for us to wait.
As someone who identifies as genderfluid I'd characterize it mostly as a dysphoria that sort of swings both ways sort of randomly, it's really pretty much as simple as some days you wake up feeling like you want to present as feminine/masculine/androgynous and if you don't it makes you feel wrong.
I think the point of being non-binary is that one would feel uncomfortable presenting themselves as male or female and thus choose neither.
Personally, I was born male but started feeling dysphoria about 8 months ago. I hate being expected to do masculine things and most displays of masculinity are revolting to me. I wear men's and women's clothing pretty much interchangeably (women's clothes actually fit me better a lot of the time, and most of the compliments I get on clothing are for women's clothes) but never really appear feminine (I don't wear dresses or skirts). I don't wear women's clothes because they're feminine but because in a lot of cases they look better on me.
You might just call me a femme gay guy but honestly I can't fucking stand most femmes, as I find overly feminine behavior revolting as well. I guess my point is that I'd much rather reside towards the middle of the gender spectrum. Generally I see myself as existing as an individual a priori to any assigned gender roles. I guess that sounds snowflakey but I don't really care how people see me so judge me as you must.
I still present as male though because 90% of the time I don't mind being addressed as he or sir since they're just words people are programmed to spit out when they see someone who looks like a dude, which I do. Plus, it's absolutely not worth my time to correct people/teach them that "they" is actually a singular pronoun now (which always bothered me, ironically). It's the implication that I have to act manly that gets to me.
Lately though I've had a few panic attacks from body dysphoria, but I'm still not really sure how to handle that.
I got bored so I MSPainted this. It's as far as gender stuff makes sense to me. Seems we are inherently binary but that can always lead to some quirks. I still think that he, she, they are the only english pronouns for people.
The idea is that non-binary people do masculine and feminine things without the pretense of gender motivating those actions, and tend to do masc/femme things closer to the middle of the spectrum. If someone acts equally masculine and feminine, which are they? For a lot of us the easiest, most sensical answer is neither.
>>5184549 do you have a penis? great you are a man do you have a vagina? great you are a woman do you have both? Great, apparently you are androgynous now which is fucking retarded do you have neither? great, your fucked
>>5184539 um... being a human having skin using your legs
no I made the pic entirely from a theoretical perspective. There are two sets M and W, most humans are either a member of M or W. Some are members of M and become members of W, similarly some from W move to M. Possibly, some humans are both members of M and W as membership in one did not exclude membership in the other while establishing set identities. Similarly, there may possibly be h that are neither members of M or W. Finally, if some members change set, some may be in a constant state of flux and change membership more than once.
Honestly, in material application, I don't know if there would be a real difference between agender and bigender other than one group would only want to be called human without reference to man or woman and the other would be fine with both labels as they are both accurate.
>>5184598 It's nice to see someone on here seems to know a thing or two about math as it applies to argumentation.
With regards to the distinctions between having no gender and having both genders, one must make statements about the exclusivity of gender-bound actions. I posit that basic human functions such as cognition, walking, etc. are a priori to gender, so clearly it is possible for a person to exist and act independent of gender. However, are gendered-actions mutually exclusive between male and female? Plenty of cis, masculine men shave their legs, but this is often regarded as a feminine action when done independently of a "manly" reason (swimming or cycling). Whether or not a man shaving his legs for no clear reason is a feminine action or not seems to rely on the opinion of the individual making the judgement. A man shaving his legs for the sake of femininity, however, is clearly a feminine action. The intent of the action determines the gender of the action.
Personally, I don't think a single action can be done with the intent of being masculine and feminine simultaneously, at least within the established gender roles of society. To say that one can perform an action with the intent of that action being both masculine and feminine presupposes the existence of a simultaneously male/female gender, and yet is necessary to imply the existence of that dual gender identity. This is paradoxical and the argument for being both male and female simultaneously loses validity.
To me at least, it makes much more sense to have no gender than to claim both. Of course, one could still identify as both, but this is a syntactical difference; semantically they are identical to those of us with no gender.
>>5184738 >Of course, one could still identify as both, but this is a syntactical difference; semantically they are identical to those of us with no gender. And this is why I made this >>5184635
I agree that on a one for one basis we will assign a kind of binary or balanced ternary. Is this masculine or feminine? Or is it not gendered? However, for each individual, there is a number of things that are used to determine overall man/woman distinctions. This can lead to a more fuzzy logic system and so individual humans can end up getting classified into a both sets simultaneously. I thought the Venn Diagram was a good representation of this since it shows simultaneous membership instead of inventing a third group.
>>5184566 What about gender identity, which is really what's being talked about here. Like what if you have a penis, don't really care for it but don't want a vagina either, are indifferent towards having boobs but really don't like having facial or body hair?
The reason I started this thread was so I could get nonbinary/GNC people talking, and you did not disappoint. Thank you.
>>5183647 It does a little. I'm in the same boat, mostly, but I'm starting to get some chest dysphoria. It's nothing really major and I can ignore it most of the time -- no violent hate towards me or it, at least in that regard -- but it's there, and it feels a but weird. I'm considering getting top surgery down the road but haven't told anyone about it until now. It'd be mostly to stop distracting me.
>>5184329 Good post. The same pronoun thing happens to me -- it used to get to me, but it's how people were raised and has little to do with me -- and I experience "existing before/above gender roles." It's not snowflakey, as long as "I have no gender" doesn't become the single most important part of how you define yourself imo.
>>5184966 >>5185008 Any generalizations are going to be just that, but it's interesting to think about, isn't it?
>>5184966 then you are a man, you have a dick, what you identify as doesn't really matter when biology you are male gender identity makes no sense unless you are trans, like what you just described is a man who is self contentious about his body
>>5184329 here, the only thing that I feel a little bad about is that I'm being selfish and to a degree "selling out" my identity and also disenfranchising the non-binary movement. I mean, the only reason I'm even aware of gender issues is because a good friend of mine came out as trans (later went non-binary) and because of their courage and willingness to put up with ignorant people misgendering them and all that I've been able to be happier with myself. By not coming out, fewer people will be less ignorant about these things. I just don't have the courage to do that now and thus I feel a little bad about it, if that makes sense.
>>5172484 >Do nonbinary people actually exist? Yes. Non-binary in a biological sense refers to intersex people and sometimes refers to people who have abnormal chromosomes (XXY, etc.). Additionally, all it takes for someone to be non-binary is to call themselves non-binary, and it is a choice. >What is the difference between gender nonconforming and nonbinary? Gender nonconforming implies that the person has a gender (either "man" or "woman") but refuses to conform to standards of gender, usually via clothing/style. Non-binary implies the person identifies as neither female nor male. >Are nonbinary people trans? They are under the trans umbrella, but it's ambiguous as to whether the term "transgender" really applies to them. >Do they have dysphoria? Some do and some don't.
>>5185316 >I'm considering getting top surgery down the road but haven't told anyone about it until now. It'd be mostly to stop distracting me. My gf started like that when I first got with her. Apparently though I know how to make her breasts feel good so now she is okay with them but we still look for clothes for her to wear that limit the amount you can see them. occasionally she'll flip-flop pronouns on me but as long as she is aware that I cannot know when that will happen without her telling me all this seems to move along fine
>>5187965 >trans umbrella that thing does more harm than it does good. by lumping everything into one umbrella it really only serves to obfuscate anything that isn't just cisgender. I've used the set theory and diagram argument on people many times, usually to help people who are neither trans nor cis to understand their feelings. I just am really against the "trans umbrella" to mean anything not cisgender, especially since you then have a major schism under the umbrella between transgender, i.e., mtf and ftm, and non-binary situations. Most trans men and women prefer to be pretty standard gender. It's a poorly constructed teaching tool and organization method.
>>5186588 I understand a bit where you are coming from about feeling a little bad but I made >>5184635 this just to explain what I am used to in friends. They don't really come out because they just do themselves and it pretty much only comes up when people ask about it. Often time just announcing you identify as genderqueer or fluid or bi- or a- gender is strange to do and a nice conversation can be substituted if it is important.
>>5188124 what would you propose as an alternative to "the trans umbrella"? i see no need to stop using it as long as the clarifications "binary trans" & "nonbinary" exist and are easy to use when necessary.
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